Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Wintermelon43]

This is the same thing as brawl, as you indeed mentioned in your post. I went into significant detail about this a few years ago and Peach was an example I used and fits perfectly with your description here

http://smashboards.com/threads/marg...el-vs-perfect-play-and-bad-characters.302972/

My argument is that if a character is so mechanically demanding to the point that no human can reliably play the character at maximum efficiency, then they can't be rated on potential. There is literally no reason why I cant say that a mechanically perfect Samus is top tier, just no one is capable of using her to that level yet apparently Ryu is a special case.

Ryus inputs arent hard, his combos are pure muscle memory (you can do them with your eyes closed). Yes he does take more effort to play than Mario for example, thats obvious. But at no time does that make him a good character. That essay I wrote is long but it talks about that in depth, high difficulty with high reward in a character does not make them good. Reliability is what matters, reliability to win matches and matchups that matter.

Personally, I believe Ryu is very overrated because he cant force you to do anything. When he gets in, its disgusting what he can do and focus attack is absurdly good. However, you can predict and react to his linear approaches, his mixups on approach are bad, projectile is weak and hes slow.

The best characters in this game force the enemy to play on their terms. They dictate the pace of the match and there's nothing you can do about it. No character can force Rosalina to be aggressive, what can the majority of the cast do to stop limit break charging and playing in a permanent state of fear vs MK makes people do dumb decisions. Ryu is too slow and lacks proper defensive tools to dictate how any top tiers dismantle his gameplan.

I am not remotely suprised, and 100% expected that those two players would stop using Ryu. They are both very smart, very technical players that excelled with complex characters because of how far they could push them. Ryu has a big fat hard limit on how far he can be pushed and its because he quite simply doesnt have many options in neutral. Defensive Ryu relies on bair and hadoken which are trounced by anyone with a projectile and attacking Ryu just doesnt have the speed or range to reliably get in and start his devastating punishes.

Those two players would have been very frustrated in how they feel they should be doing better, they know they can push the character far and they have the intelligence to do it but they got caught out when other characters run circles around them or put up such a strong defensive wall that you cant get in. Its like, if someone found a way for Ryu to reliably get in then he would be unstoppable but for 5 or so months its been the same old story of Ryu players getting walled out so hard that him being able to KO early is the only thing keeping him viable in the first place.

I think Ryu is good of course, but I think he is below

and shares similar viability to

With poor representation in japan and europe and NA's #1 Ryu player apparently on hiatus as his other prominent secondaries have mostly returned to their normal mains resulting in his results tanking hard, there is no way Ryu desers a spot in the top 12 of the cast.

Trela's on hiatus? And who is his "other secondaries" that he's using?

 

[Browny]

Trela's on hiatus? And who is his "other secondaries" that he's using?

6WX had a few wins with Ryu before going back to mostly Sonic and of course Mr. Rs Ryu seriously impressed at Paragon but they seemed to have dropped him. I don't know of any high level player still using Ryu right now, his 4 highest-level users have abandoned him (or whatever Trela is doing).

 

[Wintermelon43]

6WX had a few wins with Ryu before going back to mostly Sonic and of course Mr. Rs Ryu seriously impressed at Paragon but they seemed to have dropped him. I don't know of any high level player still using Ryu right now, his 4 highest-level users have abandoned him (or whatever Trela is doing).

Oh, I thought you meant Trela has secondaries he's maining with Ryu now.

As for that post and the last page, this probably means Ryu is about 12 or 13th overall (Still above Ness and maybe Cloud in top tier)

Speaking of characters dropping, what other characters do you guys think is dropping out or will drop down? I think Mario will drop, and that Captain Falcon and Peach ar currently dropping too.

 

[Mario766]

Time for Ryo's real test vs an opponent who 2-0'd Ryuga who had the most Rosa mu exp of basically everyone ever since he has Rayquaza as a sparring partner.

 

[Nobie]

The truly difficult thing about Ryu was never the inputs (though they are quite annoying for those unfamiliar, it's certainly not an impossible hurdle to overcome).

What makes Ryu hard to use, and I can see why people might abandon him even though his potential is through the roof, is that you have to master a Street Fighter-esque understanding of footsies and neutral. You have to use all of the tools at his disposal to play a versatile and scary but more or less honest neutral game. The light/heavy inputs basically mean that he has more tools in footsies than anyone else, but not one tool that will just overwhelm the competition like Sheik fair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UaXhe_XPsU

Watch this Ultra SFIV final. Of course, it's a different game and movement in general is different when you can't run, have no double jumps or platforms, and you can't walk backwards without turning around (unless you crawl) but it is very rare that I see Smash players approach this game similarly.

He moves differently, demands you pay attention to things like spacing, but a lot of players of the character have mainly concentrated on his combo potential. "IF I get in, I can do this!!!" This reminds me of that Wobbles article people have been posting about local maxima. I might even argue that people have focused on his combo game at the expense of developing his neutral.

Now compare all of this to Bayonetta. People argue that she's SUCH a different character compared to other Smash characters, but they're mostly concentrating on the nature of her combo game. In terms of movement, she's a lot of what people look for in a Smash character: someone who can zip through the air and ground a bunch, and whose strong mobility comes from using a lot of big movements. It's not just that she's easier to win with (still debatable), but that, as much as we say her neutral is only okay, she fits the general Smash player's idea of neutral much more.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Mewtwo is a legitimately good character now. Ever since he got buffed the whole glass-canon concept started to actually work.

 

[Browny]

The light/heavy inputs basically mean that he has more tools in footsies than anyone else, but not one tool that will just overwhelm the competition like Sheik fair.

And there lies literally the entire problem. His options in neutral are either short ranged or punishable. You know who else shares that trait? Of course Ryus absurd punish game and heavy weight makes up for it, but still.

Long ranged and safe moves are the most important thing in neutral and is a thing that is very common in smash but doesnt apply at all to SF. If a character in SF had sheiks fair that lead into a grab imagine how ridiculous that would be, who even needs footsies anymore?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

And there lies literally the entire problem. His options in neutral are either short ranged or punishable. You know who else shares that trait? Of course Ryus absurd punish game and heavy weight makes up for it, but still.

Long ranged and safe moves are the most important thing in neutral and is a thing that is very common in smash but doesnt apply at all to SF. If a character in SF had sheiks fair that lead into a grab imagine how ridiculous that would be, who even needs footsies anymore?

Those are called "pokes" in fighters. In every character in every fighting game has them.

 

[Browny]

And Ryus long range safe poke is...?

I'd consider sheiks fair a poke, it operates the same way.

Hadoken doesnt count because it doesnt allow him to follow up on-hit reliably. I know the shakenetsu one does, but thats situational.

 

[Smog Frog]

fun fact about the mu:

his airdodge is so good(f2 with a faf 29) that he can airdodge out of the 50/50. vanish is f36, so he can airdodge twice with a 7 frame window before vanish comes out. and of course, the airdodge avoids the uair.

@above: bair/fair are pretty safe on shield and have followups after them(mostly fair). bair in particular is only -1 on oos and +6(!!!) on shield drop.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

And Ryus long range safe poke is...?

I'd consider sheiks fair a poke, it operates the same way.

Hadoken doesnt count because it doesnt allow him to follow up on-hit reliably. I know the shakenetsu one does, but thats situational.

Fair, Bair, soft Ftilt, strong Dtilt, hadoken, etc...

Sheik Fair is the best poke, doesn't mean it's the only one out there.

 

[Trifroze]

Mewtwo would be perfect if his dthrow was made into a low-mid % combo throw and his weight was upped by like 10-20 units. The latter is a shame since they really don't seem to want to touch those numbers that much since most we've seen is +/-1 (unless I've missed something).

Also Street Fighter is a different game. Ryu plays footsies in SF because he's good at them and because the game revolves around them far more due to the lesser speed and mobility. I don't think people are playing Ryu wrong in Smash at all. He's the character who's constantly being kept out and constantly has to jump and run after the opponent trying to get in, so when he finally does get in, he can't risk trying to play footsies but instead should do what every Ryu does, press buttons till something hits and SHOOOOOOOORYUKEN

 

[~ Gheb ~]

fun fact about the mu:

his airdodge is so good(f2 with a faf 29) that he can airdodge out of the 50/50. vanish is f36, so he can airdodge twice with a 7 frame window before vanish comes out. and of course, the airdodge avoids the uair.

He also becomes invisible during his airdodge. That in tandem with his good airspeed makes it extremely hard to predict where he'll reappear. It's pretty much the best airdodge in the game tbh and nair is a pretty good option out of it as well.

 

[Big-Cat]

The truly difficult thing about Ryu was never the inputs (though they are quite annoying for those unfamiliar, it's certainly not an impossible hurdle to overcome).

What makes Ryu hard to use, and I can see why people might abandon him even though his potential is through the roof, is that you have to master a Street Fighter-esque understanding of footsies and neutral. You have to use all of the tools at his disposal to play a versatile and scary but more or less honest neutral game. The light/heavy inputs basically mean that he has more tools in footsies than anyone else, but not one tool that will just overwhelm the competition like Sheik fair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UaXhe_XPsU

Watch this Ultra SFIV final. Of course, it's a different game and movement in general is different when you can't run, have no double jumps or platforms, and you can't walk backwards without turning around (unless you crawl) but it is very rare that I see Smash players approach this game similarly.

He moves differently, demands you pay attention to things like spacing, but a lot of players of the character have mainly concentrated on his combo potential. "IF I get in, I can do this!!!" This reminds me of that Wobbles article people have been posting about local maxima. I might even argue that people have focused on his combo game at the expense of developing his neutral.

Now compare all of this to Bayonetta. People argue that she's SUCH a different character compared to other Smash characters, but they're mostly concentrating on the nature of her combo game. In terms of movement, she's a lot of what people look for in a Smash character: someone who can zip through the air and ground a bunch, and whose strong mobility comes from using a lot of big movements. It's not just that she's easier to win with (still debatable), but that, as much as we say her neutral is only okay, she fits the general Smash player's idea of neutral much more.

I strongly believe a lot of Smash players would benefit from Street Fighter's footsies. Everyone in Smash just focuses on safety and combos. While this makes sense, it puts in tunnel vision. I've personally found that a Street Fighter approach works the best for me as opposed to this Melee-wannabe style a lot go for.

 

[Djent]

Part of the reason people thought was good was his supposedly solid matchups vs. the top tiers. This was before 9B started losing to every good Sheik player ever to the point where it was no longer tenable to call it remotely "even." Add in an obviously bad matchup vs. Sonic and his staying power is not obvious.

OTOH (to be fair) I think his problems with Diddy might be exaggerated. Yeah Angel Cortes beat 9B with great landing punishes (as did Zex, apparently), but then Trela literally plowed through a bracket full of good Diddies. He beat Ryuji 2-1, Jtails 2-0, and Zinoto 3-0 (though losing 1 to his MK rofl) on his way to 17th @ G3. I'm not sure if those matches (barring Zinoto) got recorded, but it'd be good to (re)analyze them if so.

 

[Browny]

Fair, Bair, soft Ftilt, strong Dtilt, hadoken, etc...

Sheik Fair is the best poke, doesn't mean it's the only one out there.

If Ryus bair is a poke, the so is Ikes.

And thats not a poke.

ftilt and dtilt are hardly long ranged, outranging luigi isnt an achievement in this game.

I'll concede that fair can act as a poke, but the issue is that when Ryu is approaching you with an SH, if you dodge the fair hes quite punishable and given how its pretty much his only usable front-facing poke... its pretty predictable.

Ryus close-range pokes are top tier, best in the game almost without question. His long-range pokes are bad compared to the likes of sheiks fair, mewtwo dtilt etc. Sure its better pokes than anything say, luigi has but again, thats not saying much.

 

[BunbUn129]

The truly difficult thing about Ryu was never the inputs (though they are quite annoying for those unfamiliar, it's certainly not an impossible hurdle to overcome).

What makes Ryu hard to use, and I can see why people might abandon him even though his potential is through the roof, is that you have to master a Street Fighter-esque understanding of footsies and neutral. You have to use all of the tools at his disposal to play a versatile and scary but more or less honest neutral game. The light/heavy inputs basically mean that he has more tools in footsies than anyone else, but not one tool that will just overwhelm the competition like Sheik fair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UaXhe_XPsU

Watch this Ultra SFIV final. Of course, it's a different game and movement in general is different when you can't run, have no double jumps or platforms, and you can't walk backwards without turning around (unless you crawl) but it is very rare that I see Smash players approach this game similarly.

He moves differently, demands you pay attention to things like spacing, but a lot of players of the character have mainly concentrated on his combo potential. "IF I get in, I can do this!!!" This reminds me of that Wobbles article people have been posting about local maxima. I might even argue that people have focused on his combo game at the expense of developing his neutral.

Now compare all of this to Bayonetta. People argue that she's SUCH a different character compared to other Smash characters, but they're mostly concentrating on the nature of her combo game. In terms of movement, she's a lot of what people look for in a Smash character: someone who can zip through the air and ground a bunch, and whose strong mobility comes from using a lot of big movements. It's not just that she's easier to win with (still debatable), but that, as much as we say her neutral is only okay, she fits the general Smash player's idea of neutral much more.

I can tell you that many players who pick up MK fall into the same trap: they're all about the punishes and forget the neutral. Abadango is a very good example of this: rolling around and just waiting for an opening to land a dash attack or grab is not how MK optimally plays neutral, and Aba's poor handling of neutral is what gave him a surprisingly poor G3 performance. Whereas Tyrant, Ito, and Leo know how to play neutral properly, actually baiting out reactions with moves ranging from d tilt, dair, f smash, Cape as a movement option, along with the usual dash attack/grab mixup, and especially f tilt (yes, it has less range and isn't safe, but it's a very good spacing tool and one that Tyrant and Seibrik use a lot in neutral, because fast start-up + good range + mixups due to optional hits = catching opponents offguard and great mindgames).

The post-Leo MK mains are all about the up air combo and tend to glance right over everything else MK has in his kit, and of course, they make the mistake of thinking "I don't need to learn neutral if I can just get the punishes." Until they run into a needle-camping Sheik and can't do **** because they don't know how to approach and bait.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The truly difficult thing about Ryu was never the inputs (though they are quite annoying for those unfamiliar, it's certainly not an impossible hurdle to overcome).

What makes Ryu hard to use, and I can see why people might abandon him even though his potential is through the roof, is that you have to master a Street Fighter-esque understanding of footsies and neutral. You have to use all of the tools at his disposal to play a versatile and scary but more or less honest neutral game. The light/heavy inputs basically mean that he has more tools in footsies than anyone else, but not one tool that will just overwhelm the competition like Sheik fair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UaXhe_XPsU

Watch this Ultra SFIV final. Of course, it's a different game and movement in general is different when you can't run, have no double jumps or platforms, and you can't walk backwards without turning around (unless you crawl) but it is very rare that I see Smash players approach this game similarly.

He moves differently, demands you pay attention to things like spacing, but a lot of players of the character have mainly concentrated on his combo potential. "IF I get in, I can do this!!!" This reminds me of that Wobbles article people have been posting about local maxima. I might even argue that people have focused on his combo game at the expense of developing his neutral.

Now compare all of this to Bayonetta. People argue that she's SUCH a different character compared to other Smash characters, but they're mostly concentrating on the nature of her combo game. In terms of movement, she's a lot of what people look for in a Smash character: someone who can zip through the air and ground a bunch, and whose strong mobility comes from using a lot of big movements. It's not just that she's easier to win with (still debatable), but that, as much as we say her neutral is only okay, she fits the general Smash player's idea of neutral much more.

I do not have enough time in this one life to co-sign this as much as it deserves

I will settle for Co-sign x infinity = win

 

[bc1910]

fun fact about the mu:

his airdodge is so good(f2 with a faf 29) that he can airdodge out of the 50/50. vanish is f36, so he can airdodge twice with a 7 frame window before vanish comes out. and of course, the airdodge avoids the uair.

@above: bair/fair are pretty safe on shield and have followups after them(mostly fair). bair in particular is only -1 on oos and +6(!!!) on shield drop.

The 50/50 shouldn't really exist at top level now. Trying to airdodge before Sheik's Uair will kill you is pretty greedy. By forcing her to use aerials to catch jumps you can stale her actual kill options as well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

BTW imma post a thought I had since day one of Ryus release.

No one in this community has the mindset to ever tap Ryus full potential. His neutral is simply too close to a traditional fighter for smash players to really "get".

Too much focus on tech. Too much focus on combos. Too much focus on pressing something and not WHEN to press something or if its even a good idea to press something at all.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

If Ryus bair is a poke, the so is Ikes.

And thats not a poke.

ftilt and dtilt are hardly long ranged, outranging luigi isnt an achievement in this game.

I'll concede that fair can act as a poke, but the issue is that when Ryu is approaching you with an SH, if you dodge the fair hes quite punishable and given how its pretty much his only usable front-facing poke... its pretty predictable.

Ryus close-range pokes are top tier, best in the game almost without question. His long-range pokes are bad compared to the likes of sheiks fair, mewtwo dtilt etc. Sure its better pokes than anything say, luigi has but again, thats not saying much.

Pokes are not long-ranged; they're mid-ranged, or else nobody really has a poke. Ike's bair is a poke because it's safe and controls space. Luigi has Bair and Fireball for his pokes. Again, it seems like you're only looking at shiek's Fair as a poke and comparing every move towards it.

 

[Luigi player]

fun fact about the mu:

his airdodge is so good(f2 with a faf 29) that he can airdodge out of the 50/50. vanish is f36, so he can airdodge twice with a 7 frame window before vanish comes out. and of course, the airdodge avoids the uair.

@above: bair/fair are pretty safe on shield and have followups after them(mostly fair). bair in particular is only -1 on oos and +6(!!!) on shield drop.

The most important thing (imo) about Mewtwos airdodge is that it can drift away immediately just like Ness and Lucas. These 3 are the only characters that can do this from my knowledge (of course the invisiblility helps too, especially if the screen is close enough so that the tags aren't shown).

It's SUCH a good attribute to have because you can escape many pseudo(?) combos that are like choosing your option of how you want to get hit:
- get hit immediately
- airdodge and have landinglag and then get hit anyway, or in the air: stay almost stationary so it'll be easy to catch you after the airdodge anyway

It always feels so terrible to switch back from these characters to others because you're so free in your movement and get spoiled by that. Then you mess it up with other characters because of airdodging too early and be a stationary victim that's just waiting for the opponents charged smash to hit you (sometimes it can be really difficult for me to estimate how much I have to wait until I can airdodge safely (aka when I will get movement along the way) in this game, because the hitstun time is all over the place).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Browny
A poke is any button or attack used to "check" your opponent and control space. Whether it can double as a hit confirm is something else but not required for an attack to be a poke.

I'm going to assume you are trolling.

You are far too intelligent to not know this **** already.

 

[Smog Frog]

i've decided to compile overall landing lag averages for the cast
i've created 2 because dair was a statistical outlier for a large amount of the cast

with dair
=15.2 =30.4 =21.8 =16.8 =28.8 =17.6 =16.4 =22.4 =20 =22.6 =18.2 =21.6 =18.6 =20 =20.6 =19 =17.8 =18.6
=23.6 =13.8 =15.8 =23 =14.9 =14 =16.6 =16.8 =13.8 =20.5* =18.8 =15 =18.6 =14 =19.6 =17.2
=19.4 =21 =19.2 =18 =15.2 =26.8 =18.4 =19.8 =17 =15.4 =12.8 =16.3 =16.6 =16.6 =26.2 =19.3 =18 =17.2 =16.8
=17 =20.8 =14

without dair
=12 =28 =20.75 =15.75 =27.25 =15.5 =14 =22 =18 =22.25 = 17.5 =18.5 =17.5 =18.75 =19.25 =15.5 =16.5
=15.75 =22 =13 =12.6 =21.5 =16 =12 =14.75 =19.3* =18 =14.25 =15.75 =13 =17.5 =14.5 =17.25 =18.75
=16.5 =18 =15.75 =23.5 =17.75 =18.25=16.25 =13.5 =11.5 =17.5 =13.25 =15 =23.25 =15.2 =18.75 =16.75 =16 =15.25
=21.5 =10.8

*lemons can transition into lemons once they hit the ground so i didn't count it as having any sort of landing lag
interesting things:
has amazing landing lag data(on the non-dair). like, better than and .

has heavy-level landing lag.

has the best landing lag data out of all the swordsmen(not counting )

 

[R3D3MON]

I can tell you that many players who pick up MK fall into the same trap: they're all about the punishes and forget the neutral. Abadango is a very good example of this: rolling around and just waiting for an opening to land a dash attack or grab is not how MK optimally plays neutral.

Aba doesn't just roll around in neutral. Have you actually seen his gameplay? In TBH5, he was consistently using PP shields and PP d-tilt along with rolling. Also rolling is a very good mixup option that can very hard to punish when used correctly since it is very safe. Top players like Aba and ZeRo smartly uses rolls because it is hard to punish if you are not predictable.

Another thing to note about MK's neutral is that Cape is definitely NOT an option in Neutral, unless you can ledge cancel it all day or you space it in the air perfectly every-time so that the endlag is minimal. Dancetrotting is instead a much better and a great option in neutral.

Also from what I understand Tyrant and Ito all got unexpectedly very low placings in G3 (at least compared to what people would have expected). It is a bad idea to judge player skills from just one tournament.

 

[bc1910]

Pika's landing lag is one of the main things keeping him more balanced than Sheik despite their similar archetypes, and I said this even during "Pika fever" all those months ago. His frame data is just that bit more sensible.

 

[Nobie]

I'm not entirely sure about this, but I think Mewtwo jump + air dodge really messes a lot with the Sheik 50/50. You literally just get the hell out of the way of everything. Of course, you also burn your second jump so use with caution!

By the way, all that Ryu stuff I know does not quite apply to Mewtwo. If you want to talk about godly pokes, down tilt is absurd for covering the ground. Mewtwo has to play a footsies game too but it's more that he controls certain spaces super well and has blindspots he needs to avoid using sheer mobility.

It's fun to experiment to see what ranges Mewtwo should be fighting opponents. Like, it's been a while since I tested it, but I was trying to find the best distance for Mewtwo to engage Charizard, because Charizard's jab is actually faster than Mewtwo's and some of his pokes are longer range too. It turns out if you're about ~1.5 Mewtwos away, you can get down tilt in and pretty much beat everything Charizard has on the ground, but of course it's not a cakewalk getting there.

Random side note: I was messing around with b-sticking, and if you use b-stick with Corrin he can do a vertical hop Dragon Lunge (rather than hopping forward or backwards). I have no idea what use this might have: any Corrin players got any ideas?

Edit: Speaking of SF vs Smash, Scar has mentioned that his time playing Ultra SF IV has greatly benefited his Melee skills.

 

[thehard]

BTW imma post a thought I had since day one of Ryus release.

No one in this community has the mindset to ever tap Ryus full potential. His neutral is simply too close to a traditional fighter for smash players to really "get".

Too much focus on tech. Too much focus on combos. Too much focus on pressing something and not WHEN to press something or if its even a good idea to press something at all.

Makes me wonder how a SF/traditional fighting game player would handle Smash 4 Ryu with no prior understanding of Smash. Or, we can raise ZeRo's eventual child on Ryu, totally unimprinted.

 

[Big-Cat]

BTW imma post a thought I had since day one of Ryus release.

No one in this community has the mindset to ever tap Ryus full potential. His neutral is simply too close to a traditional fighter for smash players to really "get".

Too much focus on tech. Too much focus on combos. Too much focus on pressing something and not WHEN to press something or if its even a good idea to press something at all.

This is something I'm working on myself, especially with someone that has risky moves like Bowser. Sometimes the best OOS option is to run away or even stay still.

Though this does beg a very good question: How do you get players to stop playing on kneejerk reactions and learn what a true neutral game is. Obviously, don't bring Sheik up. Sheik is stupid in general.

 

[BunbUn129]

Aba doesn't just roll around in neutral. Have you actually seen his gameplay? In TBH5, he was consistently using PP shields and PP d-tilt along with rolling. Also rolling is a very good mixup option that can very hard to punish when used correctly since it is very safe. Top players like Aba and ZeRo smartly uses rolls because it is hard to punish if you are not predictable.

Another thing to note about MK's neutral is that Cape is definitely NOT an option in Neutral, unless you can ledge cancel it all day or you space it in the air perfectly every-time so that the endlag is minimal. Dancetrotting is instead a much better and a great option in neutral.

Also from what I understand Tyrant and Ito all got unexpectedly very low placings in G3 (at least compared to what people would have expected). It is a bad idea to judge player skills from just one tournament.

Tyrant and Ito got 13th and 17th respectively. They actually did slightly better than most expected. Aba, OTOH, was a solid contender for top 8 for most MK players, but then got 49th. And, no, Aba clearly does not play neutral properly. He doesn't mixup his approach as much as Tyrant and Leo do. And, btw, Aba's neutral isn't his only issue: he puts way too much emphasis on the up air combo. He has a much harder time winning his games if he can't kill with it; this was clear in TBH5 (that tourney is outdated tbh), where one Mario player ended up living till 150% when Aba couldn't land his confirm. Compare that to Tyrant: he can do the up air combo, but he doesn't overly rely on it, and he can kill consistently at later percents, while still being able to outplay his opponents consistently in neutral. And Cape is a deceptively good option in neutral, especially for mindgames (Jband does it all the time and avoids punishment, and he commonly kills with it).

Edit: Tl;DR Leo, Ito, Tyrant, Jband and Seibrik bait and punish. Meanwhile, Abadango plays wait and punish.

 

[Luco]

It was back in Brawl when I received advice from someone on how to get better, they told me "It's hard to explain. It's like in Melee where DK was always a threat because he could use Bair at any given time. But, as soon as DK used Bair, he was no longer a threat. This is the kind of thing you have to work on."

Neutral revolves so much around threat and the ability to keep options open to you. If anyone has ever played DoTA, they'll see a character like Lina use her massive damage ulti, then get swarmed for it if they don't understand how to maintain the enemy's fear of her ulti.

To keep it smash-related, for so many people neutral comes down to footsies, and if you can punish things on block or not. But really, sometimes the threat of Marth's tipper will keep you out until he actually finally uses a move. This might be a large reason why competent Marth players feel so much more scary to verse than Lucina players, because their potential threat keeps you from playing footsies in a way you otherwise would with Lucina.

To be honest, I'm glad I received that advice at the time I did, because for as simple as it sounds on paper, it's actually so hard to understand what you're doing and how you need to change it, and the concept has taken me years to really identify and understand, let alone master (and I still make mistakes so often).

 

[Nobie]

This is something I'm working on myself, especially with someone that has risky moves like Bowser. Sometimes the best OOS option is to run away or even stay still.

Though this does beg a very good question: How do you get players to stop playing on kneejerk reactions and learn what a true neutral game is. Obviously, don't bring Sheik up. Sheik is stupid in general.

I have this theory that it all started because of dashdancing in Melee.

Basically, dashdancing is almost the equivalent of standing still or walking back and forth in other fighting games: a way to get a favorable position while obscuring your intent. The fact that the "Smash" equivalent of being stationary is to quickly dash in and out over and over kind of sets a precedent.

Slight aside to make a greater point: Years ago, David Sirlin wrote a post about a Starcraft class he attended at a university, and his main game design criticism about Brood War is that there was never a time where the best decision was to do nothing. The BW fans said he simply didn't understand the game, because why wouldn't you want a game where you're constantly pressured into having to constantly make things, change things, move things, taxing your decision-making at high speeds while also taxing your physical limits. To a certain extent they were right, but you could see Sirlin's fighting game origins in his disagreements.

I've noticed that there is significant crossover between the Brood War and Melee communities, and I think it's because the skills those two games value can be quite similar. Brawl as far as I can tell had less of this. Maybe teaching people to not be so buttonsy starts from there.

The other thing might be to just remove the stigma of "defensive play" from Smash players' minds. After all, it's not like John Numbers is an in your face, poke poke poke kind of guy. The style is there, it just doesn't get the attention.

 

[BunbUn129]

i've decided to compile overall landing lag averages for the cast
i've created 2 because dair was a statistical outlier for a large amount of the cast

with dair
=15.2 =30.4 =21.8 =16.8 =28.8 =17.6 =16.4 =22.4 =20 =22.6 =18.2 =21.6 =18.6 =20 =20.6 =19 =17.8 =18.6
=23.6 =13.8 =15.8 =23 =14.9 =14 =16.6 =16.8 =13.8 =20.5* =18.8 =15 =18.6 =14 =19.6 =17.2
=19.4 =21 =19.2 =18 =15.2 =26.8 =18.4 =19.8 =17 =15.4 =12.8 =16.3 =16.6 =16.6 =26.2 =19.3 =18 =17.2 =16.8
=17 =20.8 =14

without dair
=12 =28 =20.75 =15.75 =27.25 =15.5 =14 =22 =18 =22.25 = 17.5 =18.5 =17.5 =18.75 =19.25 =15.5 =16.5
=15.75 =22 =13 =12.6 =21.5 =16 =12 =14.75 =19.3* =18 =14.25 =15.75 =13 =17.5 =14.5 =17.25 =18.75
=16.5 =18 =15.75 =23.5 =17.75 =18.25=16.25 =13.5 =11.5 =17.5 =13.25 =15 =23.25 =15.2 =18.75 =16.75 =16 =15.25
=21.5 =10.8

*lemons can transition into lemons once they hit the ground so i didn't count it as having any sort of landing lag
interesting things:
has amazing landing lag data(on the non-dair). like, better than and .

has heavy-level landing lag.

has the best landing lag data out of all the swordsmen(not counting )

MK is right where I expected. His landing lag is ****ing hideous. I mean, fair deals 6-7% (ie low shieldstun) but has 20 frames of landing lag. Also, dair is frame 4, deals 6%, and has a whopping 22 frames of landing lag. Nair has the lowest lag, but still has 16, which is barely enough to make it unsafe. I honestly wish I could do SHFF fairs.

Also, Brawl MK fair >>>>> Smash 4 Sheik fair

 

[bc1910]

In basic humanitarian theory, a moving target is exponentially harder to hit than a stationary one. This extends to every area of life including, of course, fighting games, whether you're dashing in Smash or walking in Street Fighter.

Basic spacing extends from this theory.

 

[BunbUn129]

In basic humanitarian theory, a moving target is exponentially harder to hit than a stationary one. This extends to every area of life including, of course, fighting games, whether you're dashing in Smash or walking in Street Fighter.

Basic spacing extends from this theory.

But standing still will always be the ultimate mindgame.

 

[warionumbah2]

How Abadango performs is a coin flip, G3 he landed on tails. Only he can play the way he's playing because he's so good at maximizing his advantage. Actually he's the best at doing it, carries over to doubles where he specifically teams with Sheik(sometimes Mario) because those 2 are the only characters that provide everything MK needs in a teammate: Good enough disadvantage state to not need babysitting, low damage per hit so MK doesn't eat unnecessary damage when Sheik/Mario hits him out of free fall, mobility, Needles/FLUDD tech and insane frame data.

His results in teams shows that his style is 100% optimal in teams, but he remains the only MK that has the capacity to do this. He doesn't need team synergy to place high, just have a top Sheik and cover him during and after uair combos and you'll get top 5 at majors regardless on how many Cloud drones that enter.

Dancetrotting is instead a much better and a great option in neutral.

That doesn't help Salena though, Abadango finds movement options other than PP to be useless. All MK wants is to whiff punish, i don't even see Leo dash trot either he instead PPs as its a universally stronger option and complements MKs main aim in footsies perfectly. Abadango only has one simple thing to fix but he seems to be focusing on his secondaries and SFV(good lad) instead.

I heard from other MK users that Regi holds the analog stick with 2 fingers giving it an arcade stick feel. Explains why Mexicans are so good at this game, might be KOFs influence or playing SF.

 

[R3D3MON]

warionumbah2
I was stating dancetrotting as a better option in neutral than cape, which is laggy. Also I have yet to really see MKs dancetrot like Fatality or other high-level falcon mains.

 

[Big-Cat]

I have this theory that it all started because of dashdancing in Melee.

Basically, dashdancing is almost the equivalent of standing still or walking back and forth in other fighting games: a way to get a favorable position while obscuring your intent. The fact that the "Smash" equivalent of being stationary is to quickly dash in and out over and over kind of sets a precedent.

Slight aside to make a greater point: Years ago, David Sirlin wrote a post about a Starcraft class he attended at a university, and his main game design criticism about Brood War is that there was never a time where the best decision was to do nothing. The BW fans said he simply didn't understand the game, because why wouldn't you want a game where you're constantly pressured into having to constantly make things, change things, move things, taxing your decision-making at high speeds while also taxing your physical limits. To a certain extent they were right, but you could see Sirlin's fighting game origins in his disagreements.

I've noticed that there is significant crossover between the Brood War and Melee communities, and I think it's because the skills those two games value can be quite similar. Brawl as far as I can tell had less of this. Maybe teaching people to not be so buttonsy starts from there.

The other thing might be to just remove the stigma of "defensive play" from Smash players' minds. After all, it's not like John Numbers is an in your face, poke poke poke kind of guy. The style is there, it just doesn't get the attention.

So this goes into another layer of questions.

How do you remove defensive play's stigma and convince people to learn to stay still?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not 100% on-topic but Shots Fired 2 is proving once again that Cloud is a very problematic character in the doubles meta. That issue will have to be addressed sooner or later. Right now 2 teams with Cloud on them are already guaranteed in WF [M2K/Ally are already there and either Nairo/Tween or Anti/Mr r will be their opponent]. The loser of that and another team with Cloud on it [MVD/ESAM] are strong contenders for top 4 as well. As things stand nobody should be surprised if we see 4 Cloud players in the top 4 of this tournament.

Add 3 Cloud players in the top 3 of Genesis and 3 in the top 3 of Beast 6 and you have a character that is arguably overcentralizing in the doubles meta. A poll on the german equivalent of SWF has also shown that most people are in favor of either limiting Finishing Touch in doubles or outright banning the character though specifics haven't been talked about yet to my knowledge.

 

[Fatmanonice]

My argument is that if a character is so mechanically demanding to the point that no human can reliably play the character at maximum efficiency, then they can't be rated on potential.

This. A thousand times this. People still use this argument for the likes of and too, as if everyone doesn't get it and people just need to GIT GUD to actually "understand the character."