Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[adom4]

Yeah, he loses neutral bad against those characters, but not bad enough that he simply can't land hits. And he outrewards them so hard once he does land hits that the matchup really isn't that bad. Still, all these matchups are definitely a disadvantage.

Our problem against Ness isn't in neutral, in neutral we're actually alright against him, it's mostly that he gets more mileage out of winning neutral & PK Thunder offstage is a *****.

 

[ARISTOS]

Lots of people lack the patience and discipline needed to push a "bad" or unexplored character's meta correctly, most players will rather just play the game and let their character's meta advance at its natural (slow) pace. Maybe they lab a few things here or there, but the character's meta still advances at a snails pace compared to the characters near the top. Then they wonder why their character continues to make less and less of an impact in the meta.

Wobbles' concept of the Local Maxima fits perfectly in this situation. Give it a read if you havent already. He talks about Melee ICs, but the overall idea still applies.

That article is awesome.

I think it could also apply to the tools that had prior to their nerfs- incredibly strong options that led them to be overly focused on one thing. By getting rid of their #1 option, they were forced to leave their hill to continue climbing the mountain.

 

[PK Gaming]

Still looking for decent 1.14 Lucina footage

I thought I finally hit a lucky break, but...

I just need to see how she performs with my own two eyes before coming to conclusions

 

[Djent]

Looking at the pools and bracket for Shots Fired 2, you can almost infer that the people doing the seeding were trying to give every top player his/her most miserable combination of matchups.

But this is actually good for our purposes. Here are some potentially-informative (re)matches to watch for:

• Nairo vs. Salem
• 9B vs. Ally
• ESAM vs. ANTi *
• Mr. R vs. MVD *
• Nairo or Salem vs. Hyuga *

* = indicates a projected match not yet guaranteed to happen.

EDIT: Stream is live (here).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

dabuz vs Ryo could also be extremely interesting.

 

[juddy96]

ESAM vs. Venom could be quite interesting, Venom has a case for Top 5 worldwide Ryu, dude is a giant sleeper. Hopefully if he continues traveling he will just keep getting better. And ESAM has lost to DJ Jack before.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah, he loses neutral bad against those characters, but not bad enough that he simply can't land hits. And he outrewards them so hard once he does land hits that the matchup really isn't that bad. Still, all these matchups are definitely a disadvantage.

Just coming in to say that on average Cloud does very good damage for a sword user and given that he can put a character like Ganon in a juggle state pretty easy I'm not sure how much he's outrewarded unless it's literally comparing overall damage numbers on moves.

Accumulated damage adds up and Cloud stacks it incredibly easy against characters with poor disadvantage/landing options. Add platforms in with his Uair and it gets really gross.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Looking at the pools and bracket for Shots Fired 2, you can almost infer that the people doing the seeding were trying to give every top player his/her most miserable combination of matchups. Too bad there's no stream (yet).

But this is actually good for our purposes. Here are some potentially-informative (re)matches to watch for:

• Nairo vs. Salem
• 9B vs. Ally
• ESAM vs. ANTi *
• Mr. R vs. MVD *
• Nairo or Salem vs. Hyuga *

* = indicates a projected match not yet guaranteed to happen.

When is this tournament starting?

 

[HoSmash4]

Dabuz vs mr.r potentially in winners quarters. Dabuz aswell as myself think the sheik rosa matchup is 50/50 so I'm interested to see if Dabuz can slay yet another sheik not named Zero.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Lots of people lack the patience and discipline needed to push a "bad" or unexplored character's meta correctly, most players will rather just play the game and let their character's meta advance at its natural (slow) pace. Maybe they lab a few things here or there, but the character's meta still advances at a snails pace compared to the characters near the top. Then they wonder why their character continues to make less and less of an impact in the meta.

Wobbles' concept of the Local Maxima fits perfectly in this situation. Give it a read if you havent already. He talks about Melee ICs, but the overall idea still applies.

Edit: If you dont know what wobbling is, just replace that with 'x characters really good/overused strategy'.

Great read and it definitely rings true for anyone who decides to stick with anyone who isn't a top tier. It's hard to stick with mid and low tier characters and the temptation to spontaneously drop them is always there. Why play Duck Hunt when Villager exists? Why play Shulk when you have Cloud? This is even more of a problem for people who choose to stay with characters who have a better counterpart. are worse than so it feels counter intuitive to stick with these characters and, in the grand scheme of things, it is but there is still that opportunity for discovery and being the best that you can be with that character. You may not walk away with a lot of tournaments but you still push the metagame and contribute to the community by developing characters and challenging different match ups. When people of exceptional talent do this, sometimes it creates "Low Tier Heroes" and the strong playing of one person can significantly change the views of a character of the fanbase or even inspire people to pick up the character. Melee had Sethlon and his Roy. Brawl had Ally and his Falcon. This game arguably has people like Aerolink and his Palutena, John Numbers and his Wii Fit, GIMR and his Game and Watch, and, until recently, Tweek and his Bowser Jr. As Wobbles said, it's definitely a mountain to climb but it can be very rewarding in the long run.

 

[L9999]

Great read and it definitely rings true for anyone who decides to stick with anyone who isn't a top tier. It's hard to stick with mid and low tier characters and the temptation to spontaneously drop them is always there. Why play Duck Hunt when Villager exists? Why play Shulk when you have Cloud? This is even more of a problem for people who choose to stay with characters who have a better counterpart. are worse than so it feels counter intuitive to stick with these characters and, in the grand scheme of things, it is but there is still that opportunity for discovery and being the best that you can be with that character. You may not walk away with a lot of tournaments but you still push the metagame and contribute to the community by developing characters and challenging different match ups. When people of exceptional talent do this, sometimes it creates "Low Tier Heroes" and the strong playing of one person can significantly change the views of a character of the fanbase or even inspire people to pick up the character. Melee had Sethlon and his Roy. Brawl had Ally and his Falcon. This game arguably has people like Aerolink and his Palutena, John Numbers and his Wii Fit, GIMR and his Game and Watch, and, until recently, Tweek and his Bowser Jr. As Wobbles said, it's definitely a mountain to climb but it can be very rewarding in the long run.

Don't want to nitpick but there are way better Palutenas than Aerolink and Regi Shikimi is much more inspiring with GnW than Gimr. He beated freaking Ranai and 3 stocked Ryo. Even if it was in crews...

 

[Kaladin]

The greatest example is with the MK vs Sheik matchup: I find it annoying how many MK mains are willing to argue it's 55-45 for Sheik (slight advantage), and a few are even saying it's even. They're going purely off of theory: in theory, Sheik will dominate neutral, but then MK wins neutral once and kills her. Even, amirite? But just peeking at results, and they tell you the exact opposite. Aside from Leo's destruction of Mr. R and Vinnie, and Ito's and Tyrant's decent record vs Void, MK gets regularly beaten by Sheik. If you watch Abadango vs almost any Sheik, you can see why the matchup is nothing less than 60:40 for Sheik. This is probably one of the single best examples of how theorycrafting alone is heavily unreliable for determining matchups.

In fact, the MK-Sheik MU is almost a carbon copy of Falcon vs Sheik: MK gets shutdown and thrown around the stage, and has to outplay the Sheik at every turn. The only difference is that MK has the One Touch, while Falcon has to fall back to reads to get a KO, and MK's death combo is the sole reason the matchup is still doable.

"If you ignore some of the best metaknights in the world vs some of the best sheiks in the world and instead look at one player's results..."

Yeah, sorry, no. In reality, both results and theory back up the claim that it's 55-45.

 

[Rizen]

This is even more of a problem for people who choose to stay with characters who have a better counterpart. are worse than

I generally agree with what you're saying but, except for the Marios and Marth/Lucina, these characters' play styles are like night and day. The ones I know from experience are play surprisingly different than .

 

[warionumbah2]

Ito's and Tyrant's decent record vs Void

Is this a prank?

 

[Peppermint1201]

Anti just tweeted that ESAM vs Venom occurred off-stream, ESAM won 2-1.

https://twitter.com/Anti/status/706250213179170817

 

[juddy96]

According to ANTi, ESAM just beat Venom 2-1. Shame it wasn't streamed.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I generally agree with what you're saying but, except for the Marios and Marth/Lucina, these characters' play styles are like night and day. The ones I know from experience are play surprisingly different than .

The playstyles are different but, that's not the point, when one character is notably better, there's not much incentive to try the other. Lucas and Ness play very different from each other but logic would say that Ness is the smarter choice by default because he's naturally better AND easier to learn. Keep in mind that one of my mains is Wii Fit so I'm talking about things at a base level and every player makes the conscious decision about how much they care about their respective character's supposed tier ranking.

 

[Djent]

SGK opting for over vs. Ryo LOL

EDIT: Ryo wins with a JV2. We got Sonic vs. Ike game 3 and it barely went better.

 

[juddy96]

And SGK probably didn't know the MU, I can't even name a single good Ike in Canada lol

 

[C0rvus]

The playstyles are different but, that's not the point, when one character is notably better, there's not much incentive to try the other. Lucas and Ness play very different from each other but logic would say that Ness is the smarter choice by default because he's naturally better AND easier to learn. Keep in mind that one of my mains is Wii Fit so I'm talking about things at a base level and every player makes the conscious decision about how much they care about their respective character's supposed tier ranking.

Ness and Lucas are the worst example of this. Ness is also overrated and Lucas is underrated, but they also have completely different playstyles and tools. Ness is without a doubt more effective, though, so I get your point.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Game 3 was looking bad for Ryo at first, but then I remembered that this was Ike vs Sonic.

 

[UberMadman]

She was playing well, she had the percent lead game 3 but the MU is just not in Sonic's favor. That should be obvious at this point.

 

[Flux0r]

Can anyone explain to me why the Ike/Sonic MU is in Ike's favor?

It sounds more logical on paper for Sonic to have the advantage, due to his extreme speed compared to Ike.

 

[Shaya]

Ike's sword is bigger than all the hitboxes of Sonic's moves....
COMBINED

Incidentally, Sonic's major weakness is landing, and that's where Ike's most potent punish game lies.
That and edge guarding shindigs.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's kinda hard to tack on damage when Ike is literally a walking disjointed hitbox.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Can anyone explain to me why the Ike/Sonic MU is in Ike's favor?

It sounds more logical on paper for Sonic to have the advantage, due to his extreme speed compared to Ike.

Because I'm tired of explaining the one MU I can really explain well:

tl;dr: Sonic loses the range game, damage wracking game, killing game, and both his speed and spin dash are borderline worthless against Ike's autocanceling aerials + pivot grab range. Sonic has to get a spring gimp or lucky early Fsmash kill. If he doesn't, he pretty much loses the match. He also can't play anything like how he plays in any other MU, which like 99% of Sonic mains refuse to accept.

So they lose.

 

[Shaya]

Smash G0D against Ranai showing that Corrin has very little weaknesses on stage.
And that side-b is way too insane a move.

Ranai clutched it though. *phew*

 

[HoSmash4]

Because I'm tired of explaining the one MU I can really explain well:

tl;dr: Sonic loses the range game, damage wracking game, killing game, and both his speed and spin dash are borderline worthless against Ike's autocanceling aerials + pivot grab range. Sonic has to get a spring gimp or lucky early Fsmash kill. If he doesn't, he pretty much loses the match. He also can't play anything like how he plays in any other MU, which like 99% of Sonic mains refuse to accept.

So they lose.

Basically Sonic cant kill safely at all in this matchup outside of bair reads when Ike kills at like 60-70% with rage off uthrow fair or bair at ledge

 

[Kofu]

Smash G0D against Ranai showing that Corrin has very little weaknesses on stage.
And that side-b is way too insane a move.

Ranai clutched it though. *phew*

Hadn't really thought about it but Corrin's side-B is probably a massive middle finger to Villager trying to use Lloid to zone. Depends on how high he's propped up but at the very least it can safely destroy the projectile and hit Villager at the same time.

 

[Mr. Johan]

People talk about Corrin's grabs and throws being not too useful until 150%.

But Side B is effectively a grab anyway. A Frame 6 grab with the range of tethers. That confirms into a kill "throw" at 105. That also sets up reads from the "throw" at low percents into another one or other moves.

Respect it.

 

[PK Gaming]

Smash G0D against Ranai showing that Corrin has very little weaknesses on stage.
And that side-b is way too insane a move.

Ranai clutched it though. *phew*

It's the best side-B in the game

And it seems like people are going to learn that hard way, lmao

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's the best side-B in the game

It's up there but I think Limit side-B is a bit more absurd in a vacuum honestly.

Won't disagree though, Corrin's side-B is def really super good.

 

[R3D3MON]

Don't want to nitpick but there are way better Palutenas than Aerolink and Regi Shikimi is much more inspiring with GnW than Gimr. He beated freaking Ranai and 3 stocked Ryo. Even if it was in crews...

Yeah. At least for Palutena TLTC and Prince Ramen have been really inspiring. Also for G&W, paper from SoCal seems to be on the rise, so I am pretty excited.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Great read and it definitely rings true for anyone who decides to stick with anyone who isn't a top tier. It's hard to stick with mid and low tier characters and the temptation to spontaneously drop them is always there. Why play Duck Hunt when Villager exists? Why play Shulk when you have Cloud? This is even more of a problem for people who choose to stay with characters who have a better counterpart. are worse than so it feels counter intuitive to stick with these characters and, in the grand scheme of things, it is but there is still that opportunity for discovery and being the best that you can be with that character. You may not walk away with a lot of tournaments but you still push the metagame and contribute to the community by developing characters and challenging different match ups. When people of exceptional talent do this, sometimes it creates "Low Tier Heroes" and the strong playing of one person can significantly change the views of a character of the fanbase or even inspire people to pick up the character. Melee had Sethlon and his Roy. Brawl had Ally and his Falcon. This game arguably has people like Aerolink and his Palutena, John Numbers and his Wii Fit, GIMR and his Game and Watch, and, until recently, Tweek and his Bowser Jr. As Wobbles said, it's definitely a mountain to climb but it can be very rewarding in the long run.

I think a important thing to remember is that the better counterparts aren't better in every way most of the time; they're just better in things that count.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Smash G0D against Ranai showing that Corrin has very little weaknesses on stage.
And that side-b is way too insane a move.

Ranai clutched it though. *phew*

Any videos of this set yet? Just got back home a little while ago.

 

[BunbUn129]

"If you ignore some of the best metaknights in the world vs some of the best sheiks in the world and instead look at one player's results..."

Yeah, sorry, no. In reality, both results and theory back up the claim that it's 55-45.

55-45? Slight disadvantage? If you ever watch any of Ito's or Tyrant's matches vs Void, you can see how hard they have to outplay him in neutral to punish him. Sheik can literally shut down MK's whole neutral by camping with needles at the ledge, and she beats him in frame data up close as well. At 110-120%, d-throw up air is TRUE AND KILLS META KNIGHT. Then you have to consider MK can't edgeguard Sheik or juggle her. How is this matchup a slight disadvantage? It's no better than 60-40. Those players and sets I mentioned are mentioned are such a small sample size. Ask any reputable MK main about this MU and they'll tell you it's horrible.

 

[juddy96]

Top 32 of Shots Fired 2 tomorrow

Winners

Liquid' Nairo vs. CT | Salem
SF | Hyuga vs. K9sbruce
9B vs. Ally
COG MVG | Mew2King vs. Circa | 6WX
ANTi vs. PG | ESAM
Ranai vs. Tweek
PG | MVD vs. LLL | Mr. R
Dabuz vs. MVG | Ryo

Losers

DTN8 | HoH_SuperGirlKels vs. SS | Mr. E
Devonator21 vs. Dark Wizzy
Seibrik vs. HE | Smash G0D
iQHQ | Ribs vs. HoH_Venom
C3PO vs. XFire | Dio
LoF | Blue vs. Nexus | Unknown
Ho3K | John Numbers vs. ATR | Xaltis
DA | Sinji vs. UG | Ling Ling

 

[PK Gaming]

Any videos of this set yet? Just got back home a little while ago.

http://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league/v/52580871

2:27:50

 

[L9999]

Top 32 of Shots Fired 2 tomorrow

Winners

Liquid' Nairo vs. CT | Salem
SF | Hyuga vs. K9sbruce
9B vs. Ally
COG MVG | Mew2King vs. Circa | 6WX
ANTi vs. PG | ESAM
Ranai vs. Tweek
PG | MVD vs. LLL | Mr. R
Dabuz vs. MVG | Ryo

Losers

DTN8 | HoH_SuperGirlKels vs. SS | Mr. E
Devonator21 vs. Dark Wizzy
Seibrik vs. HE | Smash G0D
iQHQ | Ribs vs. HoH_Venom
C3PO vs. XFire | Dio
LoF | Blue vs. Nexus | Unknown
Ho3K | John Numbers vs. ATR | Xaltis
DA | Sinji vs. UG | Ling Ling

Did 9B dropped Ryu or he is just playing Bayonetta for fun? Also, Pac-Man. He still exists. Peach as well.

 

[Charoite]

Mmm a bowser named DGM lord mix won against The Reflex wonder and took fatality to game 5, he is now in loser finals, thoughts?

http://www.twitch.tv/sixfortyfive this is the stream