Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[PK Gaming]

Things that were made even more apparent in this tournament so far:

-Cloud is stupidly good in doubles.
-Bayo is hilariously underwhelming in doubles.
-Wii Fit is wildly underrated in doubles.
-Mario is still one of the most reliable doubles partners even if people insist he's "getting worse."

We knew about Cloud being ridiculous in Doubles since G3

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I never said that was a bad thing, just look at cloud and mario and see that being easy to play is good, it attracts more people as they r easy to learn, play and get results.

Being harder to play is actually bad because less people are willing to play that char so his meta develops slower than othes. Sheik mrta sky rockets not only because he is great, but because she is also easy to play. Mario is on a similar boat but he is judt good and nothing amazing, but he is very easy to play so more people lean towards him despite just being good.

Shulk, robin, megaman, pacman etc... all of them suffer from slow meta development for the solo reason of beinng harder to use in comparison with others. That why any surprise from any of them will come from a character loyalist and not from an already know top player who doesnt play those chars.

Definitely wasn't attacking you. Oh, and sheik has a high execution barrier. fyi

ESAM is a top-level player playing a mid-tier character, that's all there is to it.

If ESAM is still doing his usual over-extensions it's hard for me to out the blame on the character when the player is Making wrong decisions. And heck, pika is high tier at absolute worst.

 

[momochuu]

And Ryus long range safe poke is...?

I'd consider sheiks fair a poke, it operates the same way.

Hadoken doesnt count because it doesnt allow him to follow up on-hit reliably. I know the shakenetsu one does, but thats situational.

You don't need to be able to combo off of your pokes in a fighter. In traditional FGs that's actually rare that you can combo off your best and safest tilt.

 

[Djent]

Ranai has lost every set that he's played against top-level Clouds IIRC. Maybe it's time we start talking about that MU.

 

[PK Gaming]

Tweek's Cloud is ridiculous

I'm going to mark it, he's the best NA Cloud

 

[DanGR]

Ranai has lost every set that he's played against top-level Clouds IIRC. Maybe it's time we start talking about that MU.

Or just Cloud's spread in general. He loses to Sheik.. and... ?

 

[Peppermint1201]

Tweek 2-0 over Ranai, Ranai also lost to Komorikiri at the pre-Genesis local. Is it a Ranai problem or a Villager vs. Cloud problem?

 

[NairWizard]

If ESAM is still doing his usual over-extensions it's hard for me to out the blame on the character when the player is Making wrong decisions. And heck, pika is high tier at absolute worst.

Pikachu relies on those "over-extensions" to actually get anywhere because he needs to make some kind of read to get a kill. You have to take risks as this character. You can't play it totally safe. ESAM may make mistakes, true, but you should consider the opportunity cost of not making the risky plays that he does. His opponents will live to enormous Rage-enabled %s and kill him with a simple poke.



Pika being high tier is incredibly suspect. What matchups does he win against any relevant character? He seems to beat Falcon pretty decisively, yeah, sure, and maybe you can tack on DK too, but here are characters who in the last year have some claim to either even or better matchups against Pika:



Here are characters who have been theorized to lose to Pikachu but haven't, in practice:



Some more obscure matchups like Pit and WFT are probably slightly in Pika's favor, but who's left beyond that? Duck Hunt, Falco, Samus? These characters lose to a lot of other characters. Pikachu definitely does not have the matchup spread of a high tier character.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Here are characters who have been theorized to lose to Pikachu but haven't, in practice:

Trela got reamed by ESAM at Big House, and ESAM beat Venom 2-1 yesterday. Unless I'm missing something it's pretty safe to say Ryu has issues with Pikachu.

 

[Das Koopa]

Instead of bumping up a character for every top 16 appearance, you might try bumping down a character for entering but not making top 16, to avoid penalizing rarely appearing chars. Just a thought.

This wouldn't provide any detailed insight on the top 16 (aka, the top meta) unless I'm misunderstanding your proposal

 

[Shady Shaymin]

It is a real combo though.

 

[Flux0r]

Bayonetta is seriously bonkers, it seems like she always has a good chance to take the lead back at any given point.

 

[juddy96]

Trela got reamed by ESAM at Big House, and ESAM beat Venom 2-1 yesterday. Unless I'm missing something it's pretty safe to say Ryu has issues with Pikachu.

DJ Jack has beaten ESAM before

 

[Peppermint1201]

so...9B just won the set vs. Ally by WTing his back air and killing him with a combo started at 42%.

 

[momochuu]

Bayonetta's not that good though

 

[Djent]

Trela got reamed by ESAM at Big House, and ESAM beat Venom 2-1 yesterday. Unless I'm missing something it's pretty safe to say Ryu has issues with Pikachu.

Well, DJ Jack beat him twice in the same tourney. Trela has always struggled vs. ESAM, so it's hard to say. I think it's probably evenish.

 

[Jalil]

Is SDI really reliable against bayo? If it was you would think top players like ally and esam would've done it/taken the time to learn it by now. I don't have her so I can't test it myself

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I don't know why people are so religious about uthrow thunder being "untrue". It is literally guaranteed on a DI read with RAR. It's more guaranteed than sheik's dthrow 50/50s.

 

[Jamurai]

Pikachu relies on those "over-extensions" to actually get anywhere because he needs to make some kind of read to get a kill. You have to take risks as this character. You can't play it totally safe. ESAM may make mistakes, true, but you should consider the opportunity cost of not making the risky plays that he does. His opponents will live to enormous Rage-enabled %s and kill him with a simple poke.

Pika being high tier is incredibly suspect. What matchups does he win against any relevant character? He seems to beat Falcon pretty decisively, yeah, sure, and maybe you can tack on DK too, but here are characters who in the last year have some claim to either even or better matchups against Pika:



Here are characters who have been theorized to lose to Pikachu but haven't, in practice:



Some more obscure matchups like Pit and WFT are probably slightly in Pika's favor, but who's left beyond that? Duck Hunt, Falco, Samus? These characters lose to a lot of other characters. Pikachu definitely does not have the matchup spread of a high tier character.

I said exactly this to someone earlier; Pikachu doesn't solidly beat anyone relevant and loses to at least three top tiers, which sounds like high tier at best to me. I've always been a Pika pessimist and I'm glad to hear someone put my thoughts into words better than I could.

 

[Das Koopa]

Before people hype train Bayo friendly reminder that not even ten minutes earlier did Salem get 2-0'd by Nairo

 

[NairWizard]

I don't know why people are so religious about uthrow thunder being "untrue". It is literally guaranteed on a DI read with RAR. It's more guaranteed than sheik's dthrow 50/50s.

It doesn't work if you just DI behind Pikachu. He can only cover no DI + DI forward.

 

[C0rvus]

Tweek 2-0 over Ranai, Ranai also lost to Komorikiri at the pre-Genesis local. Is it a Ranai problem or a Villager vs. Cloud problem?

Personally I'm leaning towards it being a Ranai issue. Villager v Cloud is a MU I have played quite a bit, and it felt nearly even. Villager's offstage presence and ability to play away from Cloud makes it seem not that bad to me. Perhaps Ranai's particular style of Villager makes it particularly hard to beat Cloud?

 

[juddy96]

And all the Mewtwo vs Sheik discussion from earlier is utterly irrelevant as Unknown has been DQ'd according to smashgg.

 

[Smog Frog]

god dammit ryo i had a theory for you to test today...

but oh well....

but about : i think they need to put more uair in their ladders. one way or another they will find out that witch twist 2 in the air doesnt combo into anything if the target knows and you can kill off the top with uair x2->witch twist->abk(1 or 2 depending on %)->uair.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

I'm surprised he didn't pull out Ike on game 2. I think it would've been a closer set if he just stuck with Ike.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

It doesn't work if you just DI behind Pikachu. He can only cover no DI + DI forward.

I'm sorry, but that is a flat out lie. He can cover backwards DI by simply dashing in that direction, getting a turnaround momentum cancel, and jumping into thunder. It is a kill confirm for any DI. If you'd like to actually know how this kill confirm works rather than just spouting preconceived notions, I recommend you watch esam's video on rar thunder.

 

[G. Stache]

The Corrin-Rosalina MU looks really volatile...for Luma. The star shaped demon was being taken out left and right. Not sure how the actual MU goes, as Ryo's Corrin has been being getting beaten very consistently by DaBuzz's Rosalina. Wasn't it speculated that Corrin possibly beats Rosaluma? Because Rosa still seems to easily hold her own and control the stage pretty well. Still, could just be disparity of skill, though. If nothing else, Luma was really pulling through as the ultimate meat shield.

 

[juddy96]

Losers

Dark Wizzy 2-0 Devonator21
John Numbers 2-0 Xaltis
Venom 2-0 Ribs
C3PO 2-0 Dio
Mr. E 2-1 SuperGirlKels
Seibrik 2-0 Smash G0D

 

[Jalil]

I don't think anyone is good enough with corrin right now properly judge the matchup. No one at dabuz's level plays them either

 

[Charoite]

Ryo Corrin isn't as developed as dabuz , but you can see in set 2, how he was gaining traction.

 

[PK Gaming]

The Corrin-Rosalina MU looks really volatile...for Luma. The star shaped demon was being taken out left and right. Not sure how the actual MU goes, as Ryo's Corrin has been being getting beaten very consistently by DaBuzz's Rosalina. Wasn't it speculated that Corrin possibly beats Rosaluma? Because Rosa still seems to easily hold her own and control the stage pretty well. Still, could just be disparity of skill, though. If nothing else, Luma was really pulling through as the ultimate meat shield.

I mean, it looks promising for Corrin... promising in the sense that she doesn't get wrecked by Rosalina. That said, it still looks like a losing match up, though DFS seems effective against Luma. Her problem is that she struggles to open Rosalina up, and when she does open Rosalina up, Luma can reset Corrin's offense.

Nobody seriously speculated that Corrin had a winning match up against its Rosalina. That was just pre-release hype nonsense.

 

[juddy96]

Ending losers R1 is Ling Ling 2-1 Sinji

 

[Nu~]

Sinji looses 2-1 to ling ling.

Back to hibernation

 

[TheMiSP]

It's a shame that all of top 32 isn't Bo5 AND that Sinji vs LingLing wasn't on stream.

A lot of these top 32 Bo3 sets are leaving me empty.

 

[Smog Frog]

6wx was wayyyy too hasty in trying to get to m2k. he was running into **** left and right.

 

[Charoite]

I mean, it looks promising for Corrin... promising in the sense that she doesn't get wrecked by Rosalina. That said, it still looks like a losing match up, though DFS seems effective against Luma. Her problem is that she struggles to open Rosalina up, and when she does open Rosalina up, Luma can reset Corrin's offense.

Nobody seriously speculated that Corrin had a winning match up against its Rosalina. That was just pre-release hype nonsense.

I don't think is a losing matchup, Ryo was pretty convincing taking off luma, but he wasn't capitalizing on rosalina útil game 3, when he started to adapt, but it was to late.

 

[Greward]

Before people hype train Bayo friendly reminder that not even ten minutes earlier did Salem get 2-0'd by Nairo

tbh salem SD'd at 12%, and besides nairo is a better player

i think it's time for cloud to be considered not for A tier, but for S tier

 

[juddy96]

Interesting MU's in Round 2

Winners

Nairo vs. K9sbruce
9B vs. Mew2King
ANTi vs. Tweek
Mr. R vs. Dabuz

Losers

Salem vs. Mr. E
Hyuga vs. Dark Wizzy
Ally 2-0 Seibrik
6WX vs. Venom
ESAM vs. C3PO
Ranai vs. Blue
MVD vs. John Numbers
Ryo vs. Ling Ling

As a side note, I would not at all be surprised if Venom beat 6WX, considering how much MU experience he has vs. SuperGirlKels

 

[Das Koopa]

Mr. R v. Dabuz is pretty early. Mr. R's more or less a Top 5 player, no?

 

[Shaya]

I could see Mr.E pulling off a victory on Salem's Bayonetta.
Salem could be on tilt, which is a shame, but I do think the match up between the two is more than doable.