Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Baby_Sneak]

So this goes into another layer of questions.

How do you remove defensive play's stigma and convince people to learn to stay still?

Education.

BTW, the current topic being discussed is sooooo awesome guys please keep it up

 

[BunbUn129]

Oh, I thought you meant Trela has secondaries he's maining with Ryu now.

As for that post and the last page, this probably means Ryu is about 12 or 13th overall (Still above Ness and maybe Cloud in top tier)

Speaking of characters dropping, what other characters do you guys think is dropping out or will drop down? I think Mario will drop, and that Captain Falcon and Peach ar currently dropping too.

Pikachu is definitely going to drop. Having KO confirms and/or safe KO moves is essential for a character's success. The Smash 4 meta is leaning more and more towards characters with reliable KOing potential (Sheik, ZSS, MK, Ryu, any top 10 character sans Pikachu, and to an extent Mario). In this game, KO setups are more important than ever, largely due to the removal of edgehogging and the possibility of backfiring as a result of giving an opponent rage. Pikachu's most reliable way of taking stocks is edgeguarding, but that's completely out of the question against characters like Sheik, ZSS, and MK, and the rest of the top 10 are hard to edgeguard if the player can do basic mixups. I've seen Fox of all characters survive till 150% against Pikachu.

Ryu is going to drop, as his results are seemingly starting to falter. Unlike Pikachu, however, Ryu's punish game and more evident potential for advancement make #4 believable at the very least. In a similar line to Pikachu, Mario will probably fall. Mario, to his merit, has a safe KO move in his up smash, but he's reliant on landing traps to hit it, and creating landing traps is very hard against the other top 10, and even disregarding those few, any player with basic Mario MU knowledge will see the up smash coming from a mile away.

Falcon is likely to drop. The more top tiers refine their punish games, the worse his competitive standing becomes. He has a terrible Sheik MU, and his MU's vs MK, Ryu and ZSS (and probably Bayo) will only get much worse as time goes on. While Falcon has strong MU's (being a possible counter to Rosa), losing badly to 3 of the best characters in the game is going to limit his viability substantially. Furthermore, not having consistent KO confirms will only hurt Falcon even more (d throw setups are ruined by easy DI and falling up air has strict timing and is easily beaten because it doesn't hit below Falcon).

TL: DR Pikachu, Ryu, Mario, and Falcon are dropping on the next list.

 

[Solfiner]

This. A thousand times this. People still use this argument for the likes of and too, as if everyone doesn't get it and people just need to GIT GUD to actually "understand the character."

MALLC's are still very easy to implement, yet I never see anyone using them. The argument of "GIT GUD" definitely stands because not using them completely limits Shulk even more. Doesn't help that most people STILL don't know the pros and specifically CONS of every Monado art.

 

[Charoite]

So this goes into another layer of questions.

How do you remove defensive play's stigma and convince people to learn to stay still?

as long as melee is still consider the best smash game,the majority of people would think that that defensive playstyle is bad for smash, or is shameful to use, and because for some persons is this way:
offensive = hype = good.
defensive = boring= bad.
Some people doesn't want to be be defensive mostly because external reasons: spectators, or be considered a lame player because of it example hungrybox and dabuz.

 

[Big-Cat]

Education.

BTW, the current topic being discussed is sooooo awesome guys please keep it up

Not to circlejerk, but this really is because this takes the conversation away from "X is OP" to something far more constructive for the meta.

Like anything, education is key, but Smash players want, for better or worse, one thing: results. Doesn't help if the top players aren't adopting and those that are trying to adopt it don't have the opportunity to prove it in a tournament.

In my honest opinion, Sheik is an example of a character that doesn't play "true neutral" because she really only needs five moves to beat most people, something Zero enjoys #shotsfired. Real neutral involves you knowing when to use a specific move, not just pokes or a stupid poke-hit confirm hybrid.

 

[C0rvus]

Players don't have to like defensive play, but if they don't understand it, then they are very likely to lose to it. Trying to remove the stigma is pointless. There is no need to cater to Twitch viewers and casual players. They don't matter.

 

[HoodedAltair]

The truly difficult thing about Ryu was never the inputs (though they are quite annoying for those unfamiliar, it's certainly not an impossible hurdle to overcome).

What makes Ryu hard to use, and I can see why people might abandon him even though his potential is through the roof, is that you have to master a Street Fighter-esque understanding of footsies and neutral. You have to use all of the tools at his disposal to play a versatile and scary but more or less honest neutral game. The light/heavy inputs basically mean that he has more tools in footsies than anyone else, but not one tool that will just overwhelm the competition like Sheik fair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UaXhe_XPsU

Watch this Ultra SFIV final. Of course, it's a different game and movement in general is different when you can't run, have no double jumps or platforms, and you can't walk backwards without turning around (unless you crawl) but it is very rare that I see Smash players approach this game similarly.

He moves differently, demands you pay attention to things like spacing, but a lot of players of the character have mainly concentrated on his combo potential. "IF I get in, I can do this!!!" This reminds me of that Wobbles article people have been posting about local maxima. I might even argue that people have focused on his combo game at the expense of developing his neutral.

Now compare all of this to Bayonetta. People argue that she's SUCH a different character compared to other Smash characters, but they're mostly concentrating on the nature of her combo game. In terms of movement, she's a lot of what people look for in a Smash character: someone who can zip through the air and ground a bunch, and whose strong mobility comes from using a lot of big movements. It's not just that she's easier to win with (still debatable), but that, as much as we say her neutral is only okay, she fits the general Smash player's idea of neutral much more.

I would say you're right to a degree. A huge highlight of Ryu is his punish game and how crazy good/difficult it is. His neutral is slept on. WFtilt, HJab, Spaced Fair, Bair, HUtilt, Hdtilt, Dsmash, and Shaku/Hado are all super solid footsies tools that just aren't used the way they should/could be used at the moment. This is also attributed to the lack of people maining the character. Point is, it will develop and you're right in saying it's what makes him difficult to use among other things.

 

[Goesasu]

Just so you know, this is XFire|Dio, not the Yoshi player (in case you or anyone else thought otherwise).

RE: , I don't think he'll ever be top 10, but a character who shares his mobility specs and absurd reach just might be.

Shulk intensifies. In b4 obligatory frame data response.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Doesn't help that most people STILL don't know the pros and specifically CONS of every Monado art.

Wait, really? It's been over a year...

I guess it makes sense that it would be the low tier characters that people are misinformed about, but still.

 

[Charoite]

is better educated them by force , people wouldn't care of using SDI, if bayonetta was a low tier, this is why people doesn't like witch time, strong shield, or counter, because they are punished for attacking.
If a character that only focuses on counters or counterattack is added to smash and is high tier or top tier, you would see people want to ban the character, but if a character that is rushdown is added then you wouldn't see the same outrage .

 

[Roy of Pharae]

Defensive play is bad if that is pretty much the optimal way to play. I've never been to a tourney as I don't have time but many people seem to hate defensive play because in their mind it slows the game down. I prefer playing offensively as you can get in.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I'm gonna make a Q1 2016 results-based tier list after SF2 is done and find some way to score characters using Top 16s of every Major thusfar (Dismantle 2, KTAR XVI, Genesis 3, PAX Arena, BEAST 6, Shots Fired 2)

I figure I'll use pre-patch tournies since this wasn't exactly a Diddy Nerf-level patch

Instead of bumping up a character for every top 16 appearance, you might try bumping down a character for entering but not making top 16, to avoid penalizing rarely appearing chars. Just a thought.

And Ryus long range safe poke is...?

I'd consider sheiks fair a poke, it operates the same way.

Hadoken doesnt count because it doesnt allow him to follow up on-hit reliably. I know the shakenetsu one does, but thats situational.

Poke doesn't mean combo starter. Hadoken is a poke, just not a very good one because it's rarely safe, and can be swatted out of the air by a lot of things, making it even less safe. His poke is supposed to be low forward (hard dtilt). But since shorthopping is so prevalent and it's so low... well there we go.

Shiek fair is a great poke because air deceleration, shield safety, disjoint, and hitbox placement in that diagonal area which can be hard to antiair.

 

[Halifax?]

I agree with the footsies stuff so far but there's one thing that irritates me. I don't understand the need to generalize the average smash player as a troglodyte who only holds the control stick towards an opponent. There are ****ty players in every fighting game and saying **** like "smash players will never understand" sounds so incredibly elitist in a circlejerky kind of way. A breadth of knowledge across video games is definitely useful but assuming it's a requirement to understand one game in particular is dumb. No game requires you do your outside reading of playing every other game in the genre over summer to succeed. And I think people trying to push that narrative want to feel entitled to their 'greater sense of understanding' they earned by spending time not playing this game. Yes you can learn how to backflip on a trampoline but there are people who will just learn it on flat ground too.

 

[HoSmash4]

Not to circlejerk, but this really is because this takes the conversation away from "X is OP" to something far more constructive for the meta.

Like anything, education is key, but Smash players want, for better or worse, one thing: results. Doesn't help if the top players aren't adopting and those that are trying to adopt it don't have the opportunity to prove it in a tournament.

In my honest opinion, Sheik is an example of a character that doesn't play "true neutral" because she really only needs five moves to beat most people, something Zero enjoys #shotsfired. Real neutral involves you knowing when to use a specific move, not just pokes or a stupid poke-hit confirm hybrid.

That opinion is false since sheik probably has the best overall kit in the game. Calling zero a 'OP move' abuser is pretty funny when many people regard him as the player with the best neutral. Having the best neutral doesn't mean she doesn't have to play neutral. She has to win it the majority of times when other top tiers outfirepower her e.g zss MK Fox

Although sheiks fair is easily one of the best poke because of her dash grab and followups off this poke and her ability to hold advantage

 

[Charoite]

she has the best neutral because needles storm can use for long poke, damage racking, set up a grab, set up a kill with bouncing fish.

 

[Mario766]

Shulk intensifies. In b4 obligatory frame data response.

Except Shulk doesn't have Ike's mobility specs. He has short bursts of mobility then reverts to a terrible vanilla self.

Nor does Shulk have the reward on hit
Killing ability
Kill confirms
Safety

I could continueeee

Talking about Ike

For Ike to be really high tier, he needs reps. Ryuga just switched, Ryo is playing more and more Corrin. Our top 5 got cut to 4, and Rango took the spot but doesn't have the national level results or XP.

As San said, Ike's metagame in general is just slow. We don't have the massive following so Ike's metagame is faltering.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Talking about Ike

Go to a doctor, your obsession with that character is unhealthy.

 

[Mario766]

Go to a doctor, your obsession with that character is unhealthy.

We had a discussion about him just last page, which I referred to plus there's a top level Ike in top 32 at a national.


It could be much worse.

 

[Ffamran]

Except Shulk doesn't have Ike's mobility specs. He has short bursts of mobility then reverts to a terrible vanilla self.

I'm sorry, but what? They're almost freaking identical. Even Corrin has similar mobility! Copy and paste stats, templates, makes easy, simple money. The Fire Emblem cast plus Shulk have similar mobility however subtle like how all of them have the same dash to stop or shield frames, grab frame data, and even moves that it's sickening at times.

I could argue that all of the Fire Emblem characters are semi-clones to each other and it's easy to see with Lucina, Marth, and Roy and Ike and Shulk. Corrin and Robin are basically Lucina hitboxes plus Ike's mobility or worse and a projectile. No wonder the developers didn't want Chrom in because that would be 4 Marths: Chrom, Lucina, Marth, and Roy, and 8 semi-clones: Chrom, Corrin, Ike, Lucina, Marth, Robin, Roy, and Shulk. Am I overgeneralizing? Hell yes, but the point stands that they share similar data that it's really questionable.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Pikachu is definitely going to drop. Having KO confirms and/or safe KO moves is essential for a character's success. The Smash 4 meta is leaning more and more towards characters with reliable KOing potential (Sheik, ZSS, MK, Ryu, any top 10 character sans Pikachu, and to an extent Mario). In this game, KO setups are more important than ever, largely due to the removal of edgehogging and the possibility of backfiring as a result of giving an opponent rage. Pikachu's most reliable way of taking stocks is edgeguarding, but that's completely out of the question against characters like Sheik, ZSS, and MK, and the rest of the top 10 are hard to edgeguard if the player can do basic mixups. I've seen Fox of all characters survive till 150% against Pikachu.

Ryu is going to drop, as his results are seemingly starting to falter. Unlike Pikachu, however, Ryu's punish game and more evident potential for advancement make #4 believable at the very least. In a similar line to Pikachu, Mario will probably fall. Mario, to his merit, has a safe KO move in his up smash, but he's reliant on landing traps to hit it, and creating landing traps is very hard against the other top 10, and even disregarding those few, any player with basic Mario MU knowledge will see the up smash coming from a mile away.

Falcon is likely to drop. The more top tiers refine their punish games, the worse his competitive standing becomes. He has a terrible Sheik MU, and his MU's vs MK, Ryu and ZSS (and probably Bayo) will only get much worse as time goes on. While Falcon has strong MU's (being a possible counter to Rosa), losing badly to 3 of the best characters in the game is going to limit his viability substantially. Furthermore, not having consistent KO confirms will only hurt Falcon even more (d throw setups are ruined by easy DI and falling up air has strict timing and is easily beaten because it doesn't hit below Falcon).

TL: DR Pikachu, Ryu, Mario, and Falcon are dropping on the next list.

Pikachu does have uthrow to thunder as a true combo in conjunction with RAR, though. Also, I've seen esam successfully gimp sheik and zss before. Nevermind the countless stage spikes he's gotten vs characters with worse recoveries like rosa, mario, and m2k's cloud.

 

[Goesasu]

Except Shulk doesn't have Ike's mobility specs. He has short bursts of mobility then reverts to a terrible vanilla self.

Nor does Shulk have the reward on hit
Killing ability
Kill confirms
Safety

I could continueeee

Talking about Ike

For Ike to be really high tier, he needs reps. Ryuga just switched, Ryo is playing more and more Corrin. Our top 5 got cut to 4, and Rango took the spot but doesn't have the national level results or XP.

As San said, Ike's metagame in general is just slow. We don't have the massive following so Ike's metagame is faltering.

Shulk never plays in vanilla, he is always in an art.

Shulk mobility is miles better than ike, you could play all the matxh in jump and speed if you wanted to.

While in buater shulk has all the reward on hit a char could get. 19% ftilt, 17% throws, 4% pummel, i could go on.

While in jump shulk can edgeguard and edge pressure, something uncommon for swordfighters.

Smash monado can kill really early while edgeguarding too. You could play the neutral in smash mode also, but is risky sometimes so you have to play smart.

Ike is better than shulk at inflicting raw damage, other art non buster shulk gets behind ike, but buster shulk surpass him. But not everything is raw damage.

Playing shulk requires playing smart, something most people dont do while playing smash. Actually shulk is similar to ryu in the sense both enforces excellent footsies and fundamentals over easy bread and butter combos and muscle memory alone.

Dont get me wrong, ike is good and easy to play and because of that his abilites shine easier. Shulk is tricky and difficult to use, he wont shine until someone actually show people how to play him (kinda like pacman in that way). Sadly for shulk sheik is one of his hardest matchups and one of the main reasons why his meta doesnt advance any faster.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The misinformation about Shulk's mobility is astounding. He's .02 slower than Ike in terms of max air speed but he outspeeds him on the ground by .02 without any Monado effects.

Yes the character is not amazing but please don't say he's slower mobility-wise than Ike. They're essentually equal without monados and he blows him out of the water when he activates either Jump or Speed.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Go to a doctor, your obsession with that character is unhealthy.

I know right? How dare character discussion take place in this thread!

 

[Mario766]

I didn't even say he had worse.

I said he doesn't have Ike's mobility specs because of his bursts of mobility with arts, and he isn't a fast faller in vanilla mode.

Did I just hear someone say Ike was easy to play also. lol

Get back to me when you have a lacking neutral and disadvantage game and consider that easy to play at a competitive level.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Go to a doctor, your obsession with that character is unhealthy.

God please no.
I don't like the Doc/Ike matchup, at all.
Like, it's one of those matchups where you're forced to play the lamest game ever if you want to win.
Anyway, as the meta & patches happened, i was thinking about character viability & realied that Falco is probably around the Bottom 15 or something. Like, the character doesn't have much representation, his neutral is pretty awful, advantage state is probably the best thing & redeeming quality of the character, he has both strong b&b for combos, versatility & strong mixups that may lead into Falco getting a **** ton of % on you very quick, disadvantage state is also pretty damn bad.
What do you guys all think of Falco rn?

 

[Goesasu]

I didn't even say he had worse.

I said he doesn't have Ike's mobility specs because of his bursts of mobility with arts, and he isn't a fast faller in vanilla mode.

Did I just hear someone say Ike was easy to play also. lol

Get back to me when you have a lacking neutral and disadvantage game and consider that easy to play at a competitive level.

Easier to play than shulk thats for sure. He is not as easy as cloud but he is not shulk, pacman or ryu level of complex either.
He is even easier to play than marth for god sake.

Bad disadvantage is common for swordweilders and each of them manages it in a different way while they all try to land. Im not ike expert so i dont know what he does in that situation, shulk has shield monado to survive or to break combos , even surviving mk or zss leader combos.

Ike and shulk are very similar, ike is better in what he does but he only can do so much, shulk can do what ike does just lower, but he gains the ability to do other thing and approach matchups in different ways and changing on the fly. This is something easier to say than done, but its possible.

 

[meleebrawler]

Defensive play is bad if that is pretty much the optimal way to play. I've never been to a tourney as I don't have time but many people seem to hate defensive play because in their mind it slows the game down. I prefer playing offensively as my character can get in.

Defensive play is unpopular mainly for taking longer. Both it and aggressive can be monotonous to a degree, but the latter usually being over quicker means smoother tourney operating and appeal to the large amount of short-attention-span spectators (mainly those who don't play the game).

God please no.
I don't like the Doc/Ike matchup, at all.
Like, it's one of those matchups where you're forced to play the lamest game ever if you want to win.
Anyway, as the meta & patches happened, i was thinking about character viability & realied that Falco is probably around the Bottom 15 or something. Like, the character doesn't have much representation, his neutral is pretty awful, advantage state is probably the best thing & redeeming quality of the character, he has both strong b&b for combos, versatility & strong mixups that may lead into Falco getting a **** ton of % on you very quick, disadvantage state is also pretty damn bad.
What do you guys all think of Falco rn?

Pretty much a less extreme Luigi, slightly better mobility and range but slightly worse frame data and combo potential.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I didn't even say he had worse.

I said he doesn't have Ike's mobility specs because of his bursts of mobility with arts, and he isn't a fast faller in vanilla mode.

Did I just hear someone say Ike was easy to play also. lol

Get back to me when you have a lacking neutral and disadvantage game and consider that easy to play at a competitive level.

Ike isn't easy to play, He just has a low execution barrier. That's not a bad thing at all lol not everyone wants to live in the lab for months.

 

[Smog Frog]

http://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league

20FF has arrived, folks

the doubles meta can only get worse from this point, is a ****ing degenerate

 

[C0rvus]

God please no.
I don't like the Doc/Ike matchup, at all.
Like, it's one of those matchups where you're forced to play the lamest game ever if you want to win.
Anyway, as the meta & patches happened, i was thinking about character viability & realied that Falco is probably around the Bottom 15 or something. Like, the character doesn't have much representation, his neutral is pretty awful, advantage state is probably the best thing & redeeming quality of the character, he has both strong b&b for combos, versatility & strong mixups that may lead into Falco getting a **** ton of % on you very quick, disadvantage state is also pretty damn bad.
What do you guys all think of Falco rn?

Both events I frequent featured strong Falco players. Back in NJ, Keitaro was one of the best players at the Break, and the number 3 player at my college is a Falco main. The character isn't impressive, and is easy to combo and edgeguard, but I find his vertical control and advantage very strong. His buttons are pretty damn good (up air, bair, up tilt, down tilt, jab, ftilt are all good to great moves). Falco really seems to thrive off of good fundamentals. He's a functioning but flawed character with literally nothing broken or stupid strong about him, so he has nowhere to go. Players can use him as a means and just outplay others to win with him, but he isn't good. That's my impression of him, anyway.
That said, Keitaro is west coast now, so maybe we'll see more of him in the coming days. It's pretty hard to stand out in NJ, that's for sure.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Know who also had a lacking neutral and disadvantage, but had excellent advantage state once he got in to the point that players picked him up and figured him out in minutes?

Only difference here is that instead of Fireballs, this guy's got better traction, disjoint, and the best dash -> shield in the game to get the grabs to start his stuff. And an autocancel Side B to get out of juggles and recover seamlessly that the plumber wished he had.

 

[Goesasu]

Ike isn't easy to play, He just has a low execution barrier. That's not a bad thing at all lol not everyone wants to live in the lab for months.

I never said that was a bad thing, just look at cloud and mario and see that being easy to play is good, it attracts more people as they r easy to learn, play and get results.

Being harder to play is actually bad because less people are willing to play that char so his meta develops slower than othes. Sheik mrta sky rockets not only because he is great, but because she is also easy to play. Mario is on a similar boat but he is judt good and nothing amazing, but he is very easy to play so more people lean towards him despite just being good.

Shulk, robin, megaman, pacman etc... all of them suffer from slow meta development for the solo reason of beinng harder to use in comparison with others. That why any surprise from any of them will come from a character loyalist and not from an already know top player who doesnt play those chars.

 

[Djent]

http://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league

20FF has arrived, folks

the doubles meta can only get worse from this point, is a ****ing degenerate

Obviously M2K, Tweek, and MVD used him, but were there more? On a scale of clear to overcast, how bad was it?

 

[Peppermint1201]

Know who also had a lacking neutral and disadvantage, but had excellent advantage state once he got in to the point that players picked him up and figured him out in minutes?

Only difference here is that instead of Fireballs, this guy's got better traction, disjoint, and the best dash -> shield in the game to get the grabs to start his stuff. And an autocancel Side B to get out of juggles and recover seamlessly that the plumber wished he had.

Are you talking about Cloud or Falco? Serious question here.

 

[Mario766]

I've always put the Doc/Ike MU very simply


It's the Mario MU


Minus the bull**** that wins Mario the MU.


Also Mr R and Anti played Cloud in game 3 of last doubles set in GF.

 

[PK Gaming]

eSAM needs to hurry up and get a secondary for that Mario matchup, yeesh

 

[Flux0r]

ANTi just double two-stocked ESAM. I'm really starting to wonder if this is a -2 MU.

 

[Fatmanonice]

http://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league

20FF has arrived, folks

the doubles meta can only get worse from this point, is a ****ing degenerate

Things that were made even more apparent in this tournament so far:

-Cloud is stupidly good in doubles.
-Bayo is hilariously underwhelming in doubles.
-Wii Fit is wildly underrated in doubles.
-Mario is still one of the most reliable doubles partners even if people insist he's "getting worse."

 

[Djent]

I mean, I'd call any MU where a secondary is strongly advised "-2." So yeah, I think it is.

 

[NairWizard]

ESAM is a top-level player playing a mid-tier character.



Maybe there was a time when Pikachu was top 15, but there have been buffs to most of the mid tiers, against whom Pikachu historically did not do that well in the first place (just even matchups all around), and top tiers (against whom Pikachu has been toted to do well) have developed both better damage wracking and more kill setups/confirms, whereas Pikachu has gone nowhere (no up-throw Thunder is not real, stop saying it is).

He's probably somewhere between 20th and 30th in the cast, in my opinion.