2013 Community Tier List

[KevinM]

Ness can reverse ledgedash with full invinc or just regular ledgedash (not sure how much invinc he has, but I think it's enough to at least shield).

It's both Mofo's done it

 

[KayB]

wait hold on a second

I was under the impression that roy sucked and mewtwo didn't

 

[Ezzee]

wait hold on a second

I was under the impression that roy sucked and mewtwo didn't

They're both bad

 

[cjugs]

What's keeping sheik from the number 2 seed

 

[Varist]

You should instead be asking what justifies keeping her at 3rd.

Sheik should be below Marth.

Marth has easier match-ups against Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Peach, Ice Climbers and Falcon.

Sheik has not-as-easy match-ups against those characters, and an awful match-up against Jigglypuff. (I don't know how she does against IC but I'm sure it's questionable)

Then just because Sheik beat's Marth in the head-to-head, people underrate the fact that in most other scenarios Marth is better.

Don't let their head-to-head matchups rule your opinion. I know it's a strange psychological barrier to get around, but Marth IS better than Sheik. Just not against Sheik herself.

The fact that Sheik "beats the lower tiers harder" is literally irrelevant. If you lost to a Link or whatever because you were Marth and wouldn't have lost if you were Sheik then get ****ing better and don't lose to Link with either character.

If that wasn't enough, Marth has greater future meta development potential.

Sheik's pretty much figured out.

yeah, just based on that this list is ********

 

[AlienAllen]

Marth has a better matchup against Falcon than Sheik? Now I have heard everything.

 

[Purpletuce]

Marth has a long hard sword, Sheik has a limp 'chain'.

Who do you think is better at f**king Faclon?

Also, whenever I hear people talking about Marth on FD vs. spacies, I think of PP beating M2K's Marth in some games, and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHnbKRaqF4U

I think Marth has a really good MU against the antiquated spacie playstyle of 'tech skill only'. The players using the 'tech skill only' approach are much more prone to getting grabbed, and since Marth has such a high punishment game off of getting grabs, it makes that PLAYSTYLE inviable, not the character. If a spacie plays smart, and doesn't let himself get grabbed for free, then FD is definitely doable for spacies.

 

[Yeroc]

Heh, there's no way.

Sheik destroys Falcon, almost for free. She controls neutral by having a projectile, she has ridiculous combo setups that lead both into and out of grabs, which make it exceptionally easy for her to put him offstage, where he gets edgeguarded basically for free unless your name is Aziz. The only thing that keeps this matchup from being unwinnable is the fact that if Falcon gets a hit or a grab it's usually a stock. If Sheik can stay safe, however, she shuts Falcon's game down hard. Marth and Falcon is even, only by virtue of the fact that they obliterate one another so badly.

I also disagree that Sheik has a terrible matchup against Jiggs, but I know I'm in the minority there. I still don't know that I'd call it in Sheik's favor, nor even for that matter, but I really think that Sheik has good tools for the matchup if she avoids the dumb things that Jiggs can wreck her for. Slightly disadvantaged, is where I'd put it.

 

[cjugs]

You should instead be asking what justifies keeping her at 3rd.

Sheik should be below Marth.

Marth has easier match-ups against Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Peach, Ice Climbers and Falcon.

Sheik has not-as-easy match-ups against those characters, and an awful match-up against Jigglypuff. (I don't know how she does against IC but I'm sure it's questionable)

Then just because Sheik beat's Marth in the head-to-head, people underrate the fact that in most other scenarios Marth is better.

Don't let their head-to-head matchups rule your opinion. I know it's a strange psychological barrier to get around, but Marth IS better than Sheik. Just not against Sheik herself.

The fact that Sheik "beats the lower tiers harder" is literally irrelevant. If you lost to a Link or whatever because you were Marth and wouldn't have lost if you were Sheik then get ****ing better and don't lose to Link with either character.

If that wasn't enough, Marth has greater future meta development potential.

Sheik's pretty much figured out.

yeah, just based on that this list is ********

It would be interesting to hear from a sheik main perspective, i don't know who said sheik is higher on the tier list because she beats low tiers but it wasn't be and i agree its irrelevant.
Fox, yeah maybe idk which one of foxes matchups is more even Marth or Sheik but their definetly both close, falco again goes even with both, puff idk puff is lame i could see Marth being easier but then again i NEVER see Marth or Sheik vs puff so idk. Peach sounds wrong i always thought sheik >peach but why why not you didn't give like any reason there. Yeah alot of IC mains have said they like the like the sheik matchup pretty sure it's bad for her. Falcon that's got to be a joke right?

So those definetly aren't CLEAR matchup advantages over Marth sounds about the same.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sheik bops marth and falcon, no problem
Sheik has an easier matchup with Falco
Marth probably does better against fox
They both bop Peach
Puff bops both of them

 

[cjugs]

Sheik bops marth and falcon, no problem
Sheik has an easier matchup with Falco
Marth probably does better against fox
They both bop Peach
Puff bops both of them

So what advantage does falco have over sheik as a character? I'm neutral btw kind of new to the scene but i know they used to go back and fourth on the tier list so i'm jw why she's lower

 

[Varist]

Sheik bops marth and falcon, no problem
Sheik has an easier matchup with Falco
Marth probably does better against fox
They both bop Peach
Puff bops both of them

I would revise this to
Sheik bops marth and falcon, no problem
Marth bops puff and falcon
Marth has an easier matchup with Falco
Marth definitely does better against Fox
They both bop Peach
Puff bops Sheik

this is what i'm talking about when I say people have overly pessimistic perspectives of marth. he's constantly underrated. the only reason he's still at 4th is because you have people who know he's not that bad making the people who think he is that bad begrudgingly admit, "okay, he's actually not bad"

and the fact that people can't justify putting peach above him

but marth totally > sheik

 

[cjugs]

^ wasn't marth number 2 not all that long ago?

 

[Varist]

if by not all that long ago you mean 6 years ago.

yeah.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth can't be above Sheik simply because he loses the head to head.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I would revise this to
Sheik bops marth and falcon, no problem
Marth bops puff and falcon
Marth has an easier matchup with Falco
Marth definitely does better against Fox
They both bop Peach
Puff bops Sheik

this is what i'm talking about when I say people have overly pessimistic perspectives of marth. he's constantly underrated. the only reason he's still at 4th is because you have people who know he's not that bad making the people who think he is that bad begrudgingly admit, "okay, he's actually not bad"

and the fact that people can't justify putting peach above him

but marth totally > sheik

Marth does not bop puff or falcon.
Sheik is definitely a better character vs. falco at high level play where the falco isn't being gimped by obvious back throw shenanigans.
Marth does considerably better vs. peach

 

[Varist]

marth is pretty much the best character to deal with puff in theory
marth definitely bops falcon, you get him off the stage and it's done, and his neutral game is way better
i could just turn around and say marth is definitely a better character vs falco at high level play because it's easier for him to get grabs

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Going head to head, maybe. Fox has the luxury of not having to challenge puff directly and just laser camp til kill percent.
The marth falcon matchup is definitely not one sided. They both combo each other to death. The only real difference is that Falcon has guaranteed kill moves on marth whereas marth will struggle to get a kill if the falcon reaches high percentage.
Grabs are not guaranteed kills like they were in 07. Onstage game matters so much more which is where sheik is better than marth. Her edge game is also very close to his.

 

[Varist]

We're not really talking about Fox here, the fact that he deals with Puff better than marth is irrelevant when i'm comparing Marth and Sheik

As for Marth v falcon, Marth has a more threatening neutral game than Falcon but people rarely play marth in the gay way he needs to be played to make that neutral advantage as suffocating as it really is. Falcon almost wins off of the gimmick factor that he's fast and you can basically just spend all of the neutral game tricking the marth into insecure mindsets and just getting free hits. Falcon can't really do anything to Marth if Marth plays it right, but Marth can do whatever he wants to Falcon as long as he's smart about it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAJDaLrjOPI&feature=youtu.be

It's not 07 and I'm seeing kills off grabs there. I never said grabs were guaralnteed kills anyway, there's hardy anything in this game that's actually guaranteed. I'm not even saying it's easier for Marth to 0-death spacies than it is for sheik to 0-death them, but he can do it, and he gets way more opportunities to do it than sheik does in a given match.

I think marth honestly has a better on stage game than sheik, just because he literally controls so much more stage, both through his speed and his range in combination. Sheik's just got autocombos, when you have a Marth who can combo just as well, you realize Sheik's just slower and has less range. The only advantage she has is that she can get zero effort kills of of fair at a certain point, but then Marth gets zero effort kills off of Fsmash at a way earlier point.

 

[caLviN-1260]

I'm curious as to why Pichu is above Kirby. And why Dr Mario is above Mario o: aren't they almost the same?

 

[Varist]

I'm curious as to why Pichu is above Kirby. And why Dr Mario is above Mario o: aren't they almost the same?

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1tceqa/ssbm_why_do_players_choose_doc_over_mario/

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

You stated that Marth was pretty much the best character to deal with puff, which is why I brought up Fox.
All the marth v falcon evidence is really vague and I can't really comment on it.
I don't think it's fair to compare a top 5 player in the world to someone way below his skill level (no offense to him). Also I would disregard the Forte videos entirely as it was extremely obvious M2k was off his game. I also think you're giving way too much credit to Fsmash which isn't really a kill move unless it's tippered.

@Calvin: Pichu is above kirby because kirby is bad and I'm right and nobody can disagree with me PS: i hate kirby
Dr. Mario is higher because pills are better than fireballs, better wavedash, and, more importantly, his fair is his most reliable kill move.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Scrubs need to stop spreading misinformation about mario+doc. Especially if they dont play them. Stop it right now.

 

[Varist]

marios back air sends opponents at a better angle than docs, good for edgeguarding

docs up smash is better for comboing than mario

despite the better pill trajectory mario fireballs do 8% damage so there good for racking up damage on stages like fd and pokemon stadium

marios aerial movement is better than docs but doc falls faster so its better because it makes him more like a spacy

doc has a 3 inch **** while mario has quite the disgusting relationship with his brother luigi

docs cape is jump cancelable so its practically a mini-shine in some ways

doc is a modern day kevorkian, having assisted in the suicide of countless mushroom kingdom residents while mario finds assisted suicide immoral

marios cape gives him less lift than docs but it's white and that is the best color

 

[Papa+Stone]

Varist is the only other person besides me that takes the time to know his **** before posting. Kudos to you man +rep

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Varist is the only other person besides me that takes the time to know his **** before posting. Kudos to you man +rep

You think lvl 9s are good to practice against. stfu n00b

 

[Varist]

You think lvl 9s are good to practice against. stfu n00b

omg report for flame

 

[Papa+Stone]

You kids better not mess with me i am a warrior and i take what is mine. Dont beleive me? When Frisbie of smashboards furst heard I had plans to attend PATS3 with my mario he **** himself ****less. Like, to the point where he lost control of his own ****. At that point he was spared my wrath because **** is stinky and i dont like it but he retains his anal scars. That could be you if youre not careful, a ****ty shell of your former self.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

i am a warrior

kage troll acount confirmed.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Me and kage have slready had this discussion and have concluded that my mario is more powerful than his ganondorf

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Me and kage have slready had this discussion and have concluded that my mario is more powerful than his ganondorf

I thought the conclusion was a $100 MM at Apex?

 

[caLviN-1260]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1tceqa/ssbm_why_do_players_choose_doc_over_mario/

Thanks, good explanation.

@Calvin: Pichu is above kirby because kirby is bad and I'm right and nobody can disagree with me PS: i hate kirby
Dr. Mario is higher because pills are better than fireballs, better wavedash, and, more importantly, his fair is his most reliable kill move.

LOL why is Kirby so bad tho? Kirby seems like such a strong character to me. He's really easy to use and really easy to do well with, especially in Smash 64 lol.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

He is a good character in 64. I believe I gave enough reasons as to why kirby is bad in my previous post.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Thanks, good explanation.


LOL why is Kirby so bad tho? Kirby seems like such a strong character to me. He's really easy to use and really easy to do well with, especially in Smash 64 lol.

That le reddit post was filled with misinformation. I have tested the two extensively myself and can point out when there are errors. If you want the short answer of why he is better is his fair, which adds an additional kill option that he cab whip out reliably in addition to his already superior kill options. Mario also has no true perks over doc other than the disjointed hitbox from his fsmash (the additional speed due to smaller lag from aerials barely helps his combos if at sll, and are not noticably better than docs who hits harder in the end) Pills are just one of the many many smaller differences between the two as pills have recently been discovered to hinder docs playstyle except for recovery, and if youd like to know more then i could pm you the list

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

more importantly, his fair is his most reliable kill move.

Scrubs need to stop spreading misinformation about mario+doc. Especially if they dont play them. Stop it right now.

the short answer of why he is better is his fair, which adds an additional kill option

waht

 

[Papa+Stone]

The le reddit post had several mistakes on it such as saying dr mario was a better comboer because of faster air speed and that dr mario had more lag on cape, among some others. I also remember someone saying doc had a better wavedash earlier which was dumb and the basis for my post

 

[Papa+Stone]

Ugh leave it to redditors to spread lies everywhere every single one of them is wrong. When it comes to contrasting mario and doc i take it very seriously

 

[john!]

i can't take you seriously when you misspell 2/3 of the words in your sig

 

[Orancube]

Fair makes sense, shroomed kills so much with that. Dr. Mario gets comboed easier right? I do think yoshi might see a raise sooner later, everyone's techskill is getting much better, and yoshi can really benefit from all those weird things he can do.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Doc and mario have exactly the same physics bar perhaps a slightly faster airspeed which ive never seen and it doesnt provide an advantage at all. Because of this comboing them is exactly identicle. Doc maybe can escape better with the way his dair or nair work however