1.1.3 Patch Notes Discussion

[Ultinarok]

Honestly so far this patch has been extremely rewarding. Cloud is great plus so far we've seen nothing but buffs; everyone is getting stronger and no one got weaker, whether they deserved to or not. Significant Shulk, Link, Kirby, Robin, Dorf and especially MEWTWO buffs are just icing on the cake. Shulk feels ever so slightly more fluid and kills a little earlier on many attacks. Awesome!

That said 80% of the cast is, as far as we know, untouched still huh? I find it funny that Sakurai finds characters like Mario and Jigglypuff so perfect that he has literally changed nothing about them since launch lol.

 

[TriTails]

Mario had his U-tilt nerfed in the very first balance patch.

Also, is there any way to compare characters' attributes from previous versions, aside from actually testing them one by one? Is there any kind of data file dedicated to this?

Inb4 Luigi gets another 0.00097 more airspeed.

 

[Ultinarok]

Mario had his U-tilt nerfed in the very first balance patch.

Also, is there any way to compare characters' attributes from previous versions, aside from actually testing them one by one? Is there any kind of data file dedicated to this?

Inb4 Luigi gets another 0.00097 more airspeed.

Didn't remember that. Huh. Does that make Jigglypuff the only completely untouched character? Peach maybe? I know the Pits have had only very minor changes too. Perhaps these characters have already been deemed perfect in the balancing team's eyes.

On topic, Lucario and Mewtwo's characteristic changes give me hope for other improvements. More Marcina air speed, Zelda fall speed or Robin dash speed for example.

 

[Aninymouse]

Also Kirby finally, finally has an uthrow kill. Yaaay.

If you recall, Kirby's Up throw was a kill move at E3 2014. They nerfed it by release time. I'm glad that they have restored to that move some kill power.

 

[Game7a1]

Didn't remember that. Huh. Does that make Jigglypuff the only completely untouched character? Peach maybe? I know the Pits have had only very minor changes too. Perhaps these characters have already been deemed perfect in the balancing team's eyes.

Jigglypuff has gotten only two specific changes so far.

• A bugfix that correct Instant reversal Rollout glitch (first balance patch, 1.0.4)
• Rest's flower damage increased by 1% (1.0.6).
• There was also an animation fix on one of her custom specials, but it's nothing noteworthy.

It also could be characters like Jigglypuff (and I think Ryu as well) are balanced through universal changes rather than specific changes (like recent Kirby, Lucas, Shulk, etc.).

 

[Lavani]

Jigglypuff also had a hilarious momentum glitch with Pound fixed in either 1.0.4 or 1.0.6.

She'd literally shoot off into the blast zone and SD if she tried to use Pound after being ledge trumped.

 

[Rewrite]

A patch dedicated entirely to buffs? that's pretty neat. Cloud got the biggest buff of all though. He was completely unplayable last patch.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Lot of good changes to Mewtwo. He is probably a solid/low mid now. We have been labbing him a lot on the Mewtwo boards, and new options keep showing up!

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Finally on Sheik...

I tested all ground attacks, Jab 1, 2, rapid, tilts, smashes etc. No changes what so ever in terms of endlag. Sheik once again uses her ninja techniques and slips by untouched.

And just clarity for Darklink401 , Vanish explodes the same and reappears the same as before.

EDIT: and Grenade also explodes at the same time.

Thank you for testing.

Knockback the same?

 

[Megalopunny3]

Thank you for testing.

Knockback the same?

The Dataminers would have been able to spot any knockback changes instantly. From all the different tests Sheik seems untouched.

 

[Meshima]

I cofirmed that

• Kirby's run speed(was 1.5 in 1.1.2) is very slightly faster than R.O.B.(1.568) now in WiiU.
• Kirby's walk/air/fall speed hasn't changed.
• Lucario's air speed(1.01 in 1.1.2) is at least faster than R.O.B.(1.08) and seems to be same as DHD(1.1) now.
• Lucario's fast fall speed(1.56 in 1.1.2) is between MK(1.66) and ZSS(1.7) now.
• Lucario's walk speed(1 in 1.1.2) is at least faster than Pac-Man(1.045) and seems to be same as MiiGunner(1.05) now.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Am loving the Mewtwo buffs. He feels much better.

I do have a question about the Chairzard changes though.

Seems his Down Smash has stronger knock back which is nice...

But I'm not too sure what the Up Smash changes mean?

What are all the tiny little changes with Up Smash exactly?

 

[Bowserboy3]

I cofirmed that

• Kirby(his run speed was 1.5 in 1.1.2) is very slightly faster than R.O.B.(1.568) now in WiiU.
• Lucario's air speed(1.01 in 1.1.2) is now at least faster than R.O.B.(1.08) and seems to be same as DHD(1.1) now.
• Lucario's fast fall speed(1.56 in 1.1.2) is between MK(1.66) and ZSS(1.7) now.

I can also confirm that Lucario's air speed, both fall and fast fall speed have been increased. Though it is very negligible (certainly not as noticeable as Mewtwo's running speed increase), they are certainly changed, and results consistently showed this for it not to be human error. Though I cannot confirm the exact values like I was able to with Mewtwo, I can nonetheless confirm that Lucario's air speed, and both fall speeds have increased.

And Kirby's run speed has indeed increased slightly. It also is not very much, but the animation is noticeably quicker on 1/4 speed. Again, I cannot confirm values as I am away from my Wii U, but M Meshima is right in everything said about both Lucario and Kirby. Good spot.

 

[Vipermoon]

I cofirmed that

• Kirby's run speed(was 1.5 in 1.1.2) is very slightly faster than R.O.B.(1.568) now in WiiU.
• Kirby's walk/air/fall speed hasn't changed.
• Lucario's air speed(1.01 in 1.1.2) is at least faster than R.O.B.(1.08) and seems to be same as DHD(1.1) now.
• Lucario's fast fall speed(1.56 in 1.1.2) is between MK(1.66) and ZSS(1.7) now.
• Lucario's walk speed(1 in 1.1.2) is at least faster than Pac-Man(1.045) and seems to be same as MiiGunner(1.05) now.

Wow, and they weren't subtle either. The problem now with comparing with other characters is that it's possible a comparison character was also changed.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Seeing as a few characters have had changes to speeds etc, I wonder if there are more than just Mewtwo, Lucario and Kirby with changes? Does this warrant testing across the whole cast?

 

[FlynnCL]

Bowser (1.792), Marth (1.785), Ike (1.5), Lucas (1.5), Falco (1.472), Dr. Mario (1.312), Dedede (1.36), Villager (1.27), Robin (1.15), Jigglypuff (1.155), Pit (1.66215), Dark Pit (1.66215) and Ganondorf (1.218) do not appear to have changed in running speed. However since I'm using other fighters for comparison it could be inaccurate if there were buffs to both of them...

I'm really liking Kirby's subtle boost in run speed.

 

[Meshima]

I couldn't find any changes of run/walk/fall/fastfall/air speed of Bowser, Ganondorf, Link, Lucas, Robin and Shulk.

 

[meleebrawler]

Maybe the changes to Zard's usmash are just to make it link better?

 

[LRodC]

I guess Mewtwo's air speed is unchanged. However, it seems to match better with his run speed now considering he always had a very good air speed.

 

[Norvelas]

You're right. The 2nd hit has much less knockback growth but that doesn't matter because the 2nd hit completely misses at mid to high percents in the first place. The only good thing that came out of this is 1, 2, down 3, tipper forward 4 which works at specific high-ish percents. But that has nothing to do with the 2nd hit, just the 3rd downward damage, knockback, and angle change.

and is it me, or does DB 1 when you're right in the opponents face have a different knock back from when you *tip* the opponent. it's like there's a sour and sweet spot for the knock back. could be just me, but it does feel different

 

[Masonomace]

I couldn't find any changes of run/walk/fall/fastfall/air speed of Bowser, Ganondorf, Link, Lucas, Robin and Shulk.

Mighty thanks. Was there perhaps any changes to Shulk's run/walk/fall/fastfall/air speed with Monado Jump Speed or Shield? It'd probably save time to test the arts side-by-side instead of comparing against characters. Monado Speed already had the fastest max walk speed beyond Marth & Lucina (1.5) & a max run speed faster than Captain Falcon (2.32) but slower than Sonic (3.5). Monado Speed also had an air speed somewhere around Yoshi (1.28) & Jigglypuff (1.269) too. Monado Jump's air speed was already greater than Yoshi (1.28) & Jump Shulk's fall speed & fast fall speeds were slightly faster than Mega Man/Roy/Little Mac/Falco (1.8 & 2.88), but slower than Captain Falcon (1.837 & 2.9392). And finally, Monado Shield already had the slowest max walk speed less than 0.7, max run speed less than 1.15, & air speed less than 0.658.

 

[Luig]

Mario had his U-tilt nerfed in the very first balance patch.

Also, is there any way to compare characters' attributes from previous versions, aside from actually testing them one by one? Is there any kind of data file dedicated to this?

Inb4 Luigi gets another 0.00097 more airspeed.

That was more of a buff, as it links together better.


Also, can confirm Sonic had nothing changed.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just a question about this...


- Fair

• Hits on frame 7 -> 6

Previously this move hit on frame 7-8. As it hits on frame 6 now, is it 6-7? Or is it 6-8?

 

[Thinkaman]

Previously this move hit on frame 7-8. As it hits on frame 6 now, is it 6-7? Or is it 6-8?

Fun fact: It's surprisingly hard to find a gif of Samuel L. Jackson saying "Correctamundo". I'm sorry to have let you down.

(it's 6-8)

 

[Meshima]

Mighty thanks. Was there perhaps any changes to Shulk's run/walk/fall/fastfall/air speed with Monado Jump Speed or Shield? It'd probably save time to test the arts side-by-side instead of comparing against characters. Monado Speed already had the fastest max walk speed beyond Marth & Lucina (1.5) & a max run speed faster than Captain Falcon (2.32) but slower than Sonic (3.5). Monado Speed also had an air speed somewhere around Yoshi (1.28) & Jigglypuff (1.269) too. Monado Jump's air speed was already greater than Yoshi (1.28) & Jump Shulk's fall speed & fast fall speeds were slightly faster than Mega Man/Roy/Little Mac/Falco (1.8 & 2.88), but slower than Captain Falcon (1.837 & 2.9392). And finally, Monado Shield already had the slowest max walk speed less than 0.7, max run speed less than 1.15, & air speed less than 0.658.

I couldn't also find any changes with these Monado Arts.
I cannot say for sure, but guess its correct.

 

[Yikarur]

why are we still listing "FAF" instead of Duration? FAF is such a stupid concept. It doesn't even work out with the game's code (you always have to "convert") and every fighting game frame data you'll find will list duration. Every japanese frame data compilation uses Duration as the total frames not the FAF. People talking about frame data always uses duration and most people thing the FAF is the Duration because they don't know the concept, it's not natural at all.
I was against the use of FAF in the Brawl Lab times and I don't even understand why people would ever use FAF over Duration.
Please enlighten me.

 

[Pazx]

why are we still listing "FAF" instead of Duration? FAF is such a stupid concept. It doesn't even work out with the game's code (you always have to "convert") and every fighting game frame data you'll find will list duration. Every japanese frame data compilation uses Duration as the total frames not the FAF. People talking about frame data always uses duration and most people thing the FAF is the Duration because they don't know the concept, it's not natural at all.
I was against the use of FAF in the Brawl Lab times and I don't even understand why people would ever use FAF over Duration.
Please enlighten me.

I'm sure you know this because you've been around long enough, but many moves are can be interrupted before the animation is complete. Knowing the FAF is what's actually important, so referring to that as the duration of the move could be considered somewhat misleading, ESPECIALLY if there are special cases when you can interrupt a move with certain actions but not others (Melee Marth dtilt behaves this way I believe). I think it's better that duration refers to total length of the animation and FAF is the first frame you can act after using the move as this way is less likely to confuse people once they understand what FAF means. Overall, it's not really important. We could go back to IASA frames. I do see where you're coming from.

Cloud's ftilt in particular looks like it has a considerably early FAF for how long the animation appears to be.

 

[Luigi player]

Cloud's ftilt in particular looks like it has a considerably early FAF for how long the animation appears to be.

With FAF it wouldn't be clear if he has IASA or if it's just ending normally there. Duration + IASA definitely show this more, and it can make a difference since it can take away options like walking in the direction you aren't facing out of a move.

Edit: actually, scratch that with the taking away options, I think all dtilts are just like this because of just not being able to walk after crouching behind you...

 

[randomguy1235]

Duck hunt, zelda, and jigglypuff needed something...

and Dedede

 

[FrankTheStud]

Can anyone confirm/deny a change in Doc's down+b momentum? He feels like he's much easier to move, and gets more height from mashing than before, especially from the ground. It feels like he rises easier than Luigi, which is new to me. I don't have a way to test this, unfortunately, which is why I'm asking...It may just be placebo from patch hype or a skill thing.
Thanks in advance to whoever replies!

 

[Luig]

Can anyone confirm/deny a change in Doc's down+b momentum? He feels like he's much easier to move, and gets more height from mashing than before, especially from the ground. It feels like he rises easier than Luigi, which is new to me. I don't have a way to test this, unfortunately, which is why I'm asking...It may just be placebo from patch hype or a skill thing.
Thanks in advance to whoever replies!

He's always rised easier than Luigi.

 

[Darklink401]

I'm to believe Megaman got a small speed buff.

His speed is listed as 1.456, and Ness is listed as 1.46265, however he seems to be the exact same speed as Ness when running side by side, at 1/4th speed

Can anyone confirm?

 

[Vipermoon]

and is it me, or does DB 1 when you're right in the opponents face have a different knock back from when you *tip* the opponent. it's like there's a sour and sweet spot for the knock back. could be just me, but it does feel different

DB1 always had a 20 degree knockback angle very close up.

I'm sure you know this because you've been around long enough, but many moves are can be interrupted before the animation is complete. Knowing the FAF is what's actually important, so referring to that as the duration of the move could be considered somewhat misleading, ESPECIALLY if there are special cases when you can interrupt a move with certain actions but not others (Melee Marth dtilt behaves this way I believe). I think it's better that duration refers to total length of the animation and FAF is the first frame you can act after using the move as this way is less likely to confuse people once they understand what FAF means. Overall, it's not really important. We could go back to IASA frames. I do see where you're coming from.

Cloud's ftilt in particular looks like it has a considerably early FAF for how long the animation appears to be.

No one cares how long animations are. People use Marth's Dtilt as an example but the truth is that most moves in the game can be interrupted before the animation ends.

The game uses IASA (which is the same thing as FAF) but that doesn't mean we should. We have no reason at all to add 1 frame to the total frames of everything we look at. It makes no sense. I wish everyone would just adopt total frames already.

 

[Luig]

Tested it on an extra long flat stage, and it seems to be the case.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'll say this again. We can't test it this way, we don't know what characters changed plus we can't get exact numbers.

How do we normally get mobility numbers? Is it located somewhere in the game files?

 

[Lavani]

How do we normally get mobility numbers? Is it located somewhere in the game files?

We had them dumped once for us by @Toomai, but he hasn't been active since April.

They aren't available in anything like MasterCore.

 

[Vipermoon]

We had them dumped once for us by @Toomai, but he hasn't been active since April.

They aren't available in anything like MasterCore.

Then it's totally possible that some characters received very subtle adjustments in recent patches.

 

[Darklink401]

Then it's totally possible that some characters received very subtle adjustments in recent patches.

Which seems not very likely, but plausible.

However as of now, it's the best we can do, until we get some more information :o

 

[Sinister Slush]

We had them dumped once for us by @Toomai, but he hasn't been active since April.

Toomai is like a super hero, except he only shows up once every 5 or so months to drop in and save the world for the next decade or two.
The things he dropped for us back in the brawl days and everything for Smash 4 so far (albeit incomplete, but he finished Yoshi back then all that matters to me lol) is a godsend.

 

[LancerStaff]

Somehow I'm doubting any of the non-Mewtwo speed changes...

Since I have some Wavebird controllers just for situations like these, I'm going to test a few and see what comes up. Don't think there's a good way to account for the initial dash thought, unless somebody else has a bright idea.