1.1.3 Patch Notes Discussion

[Darklink401]

New battlefield change:

You can walljump on the lower part of BF now!

 

[Bowserboy3]

Can you get Mario outta the way? Try Battlefield. I see the difference but because different speeds can mean people passing through characters with different time, the differences may be off a bit. Albeit, I don't think precision would be neccesary on this one. So... uh, your call.

But yeah, Mewtwo seems convincingly faster.

2ND CHARACTER STAT CHANGE!

I could get him out of the way, but I was using him as a marker too. Both Mewtwo set off at the same time and the one on the left (1.1.3) reaches and passed Mario before the one on the right (1.1.2). But regardless, his speed has been increased.



Here is the walking speed one. This was tougher to prove as it is hard to tilt the circle pad at the same angle and at the same time. However, take note of the screens. On the left 1.1.3, on the right 1.1.2. The right Mewtwo sets off before the left, yet the left reaches Mario quicker.

 

[Bowserboy3]

We've heard reports of changes to a lot of stuff, though most is probably wrong. Still, people are going to keep talking about sheik until every single move is tested.

If you could also test any changes to Needles, that would be super. Try at various ranges and at 999%.

Yes, I will get straight on it, glad to help!

 

[Luig]

I've been testing shiek's endlag side by side, and I'm not finding anything.

 

[Thinkaman]

The things I'd specifically look at for endlag changes are Needles, d-throw, Vanish, and Bouncing Fish. I'm super skeptical that anything else would be touched first.

 

[Luig]

I can't record, but needle kb and endlag are the same, bf, and dthrow are all the same.

 

[Stehpen]

I can second the Mewtwo movement speed changes. I played him quite a bit for a while and was really shocked when I picked him to test out the reduced end lag. Yeah, being "shocked" isnt the best way to confirm a change but it seems people have already tested and confirmed it. As an aside, Mewtwo down grab combos into fair. Me and my bro were tired last night so maybe it was DI-able or maybe he could've air dodged. I don't get off work for a while so for anyone that can test, that seemed to work every time against him.

Something else that shocked me? Bowser's movement speed. And by shocked, I mean I yelled "Holy ****" and scared my brother. I'm not sure if it's placebo from Mewtwo hype but he seems very fluid and fast. While my brother doesn't play Bowser, he commented at how fast paced the match seemed.

 

[Bowserboy3]

The things I'd specifically look at for endlag changes are Needles, d-throw, Vanish, and Bouncing Fish. I'm super skeptical that anything else would be touched first.

I can't record, but needle kb and endlag are the same, bf, and dthrow are all the same.

I can second this. Needles fully charged and partial charge endlag is the same, all throws have the same end lag, and Bouncing Fish is the same, as in it has the same ending lag/landing lag, and no changes at all to the second flip. Finally Vanish is the same, as in it has the same landing lag.

 

[Darklink401]

No Bowser speed change, unless Pikachu also got a running change (compared the two, as Bowser is slightly slower than Pika, and remains so)

Can yall test Sheik's side B endlag side by side?

 

[Luig]

And Vanish still has the same end lag.

No Bowser speed change, unless Pikachu also got a running change (compared the two, as Bowser is slightly slower than Pika, and remains so)

Can yall test Sheik's side B endlag side by side?

I did that, and both versions have the same endlag.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sheik's Side B Grenade is unchanged. It still has the same ending lag.

To add to this, I have tested all of her aerials side by side, and there are no changes. All aerials still come out at the same time, and all have the same landing lag. I will double check tilts and smashes next.

 

[Stehpen]

No Bowser speed change, unless Pikachu also got a running change (compared the two, as Bowser is slightly slower than Pika, and remains so)

Can yall test Sheik's side B endlag side by side?

Thanks for the confirmation. Must have been his other changes throwing me off.

 

[Darklink401]

And Vanish still has the same end lag.


I did that, and both versions have the same endlag.

And it doesn't explode faster?

...weird. I wonder why I can't get the tipper upsmash anymore xD oh well.

Seems sheik slipped by untouched again.

 

[Kaiyedy]

I didn't find any % changes on Pac-Man last night, and didn't have time to test knockback for things like his bonus fruits. Has anyone found and changes for him?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Finally on Sheik...

I tested all ground attacks, Jab 1, 2, rapid, tilts, smashes etc. No changes what so ever in terms of endlag. Sheik once again uses her ninja techniques and slips by untouched.

And just clarity for Darklink401 , Vanish explodes the same and reappears the same as before.

EDIT: and Grenade also explodes at the same time.

 

[Luig]

This is kinda miscellaneous, but if you don't hit with the main hitbox on Cloud's limit down b, they get pushed away with a windbox like ko punch.

 

[Darklink401]

Finally on Sheik...

I tested all ground attacks, Jab 1, 2, rapid, tilts, smashes etc. No changes what so ever in terms of endlag. Sheik once again uses her ninja techniques and slips by untouched.

And just clarity for Darklink401 , Vanish explodes the same and reappears the same as before.

I didn't mean Vanish, I meant side B, as in the grenade XP

 

[Bowserboy3]

I am now just testing who Mewtwo is actually faster than. Using the Running Speed list on Kuroganehammer, it says Mewtwo has the running speed of 1.7 (which has now increased to some value higher).

It seems that Mewtwo is at least faster than Marth (with a value of 1.785). I tested this the same way as in my other videos I posed earlier, but I will be able to test it at home a lot easier by making them dash side by side on the Wii U version.

In fact, does anyone with access to the Wii U version want to confirm this? If I am not mistaken, I am pretty sure Mewtwo is now the same speed as Yoshi or Palutena, but testing this for accuracy on the 3DS is hard.

Here is a list of quite a few characters above Mewtwo in the running speed pecking order,

10 Meta Knight - 1.9
11 Palutena - 1.888
12 Yoshi - 1.86
13 Pikachu - 1.85325
14 Diddy Kong - 1.824
15 Bowser - 1.792
16-17 Marth - 1.785
16-17 Lucina - 1.785
18 Toon Link - 1.7325
19 Mii Brawler - 1.72
20 Donkey Kong - 1.7031
21 Mewtwo - 1.7 (OLD 1.1.2 VALUE)

In terms of walk speed, testing the same on my 3DS's, it seems he has a walk speed similar to that of Link, at 1.188. Again, if nobody can test this before I get home, I will check with more accuracy on my Wii U. I will use my Wii Mote sideways to check these as you always walk at full speed by pressing the movement button.

14 Palutena - 1.21
15 Charizard - 1.2
16-17 Pit - 1.199
16-17 Dark Pit - 1.199
18-19 Link - 1.188
18-19 Mii Swordfighter - 1.188
20 Meta Knight - 1.18
21 Wii Fit Trainer - 1.166
22 Duck Hunt - 1.155
23-25 Yoshi - 1.15
23-25 Roy - 1.15
23-25 Mii Brawler - 1.15
26 Mr. Game & Watch - 1.1242
27 R.O.B. - 1.122
28-30 Mario - 1.1
28-30 Shulk - 1.1
28-30 Mewtwo - 1.1 (OLD 1.1.2 VALUE)

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Tested Mewtwo's running speed on an extra long flat custom stage on WII U. Could not see any visible difference between Yoshi/M2/Palutena's speed. Metaknight seemed like he might be slightly faster but it was hard to tell, so I went to Roy (1.95). Roy is most definitely and easily visibly faster than M2.

Mewtwo is also easily visibly faster than Diddy Kong. He is also faster than Pikachu (harder to tell, but definitely there).

EDIT: After further resting, Palutena is definitely losing ground on M2. M2 is faster than Palutena definitely.

 

[Darklink401]

I am now just testing who Mewtwo is actually faster than. Using the Running Speed list on Kuroganehammer, it says Mewtwo has the running speed of 1.7 (which has now increased to some value higher).

It seems that Mewtwo is at least faster than Marth (with a value of 1.785). I tested this the same way as in my other videos I posed earlier, but I will be able to test it at home a lot easier by making them dash side by side on the Wii U version.

In fact, does anyone with access to the Wii U version want to confirm this? If I am not mistaken, I am pretty sure Mewtwo is now the same speed as Yoshi or Palutena, but testing this for accuracy on the 3DS is hard.

Here is a list of quite a few characters above Mewtwo in the running speed pecking order,

10 Meta Knight - 1.9
11 Palutena - 1.888
12 Yoshi - 1.86
13 Pikachu - 1.85325
14 Diddy Kong - 1.824
15 Bowser - 1.792
16-17 Marth - 1.785
16-17 Lucina - 1.785
18 Toon Link - 1.7325
19 Mii Brawler - 1.72
20 Donkey Kong - 1.7031
21 Mewtwo - 1.7 (OLD 1.1.2 VALUE)

In terms of walk speed, testing the same on my 3DS's, it seems he has a walk speed similar to that of Link, at 1.188. Again, if nobody can test this before I get home, I will check with more accuracy on my Wii U. I will use my Wii Mote sideways to check these as you always walk at full speed by pressing the movement button.

14 Palutena - 1.21
15 Charizard - 1.2
16-17 Pit - 1.199
16-17 Dark Pit - 1.199
18-19 Link - 1.188
18-19 Mii Swordfighter - 1.188
20 Meta Knight - 1.18
21 Wii Fit Trainer - 1.166
22 Duck Hunt - 1.155
23-25 Yoshi - 1.15
23-25 Roy - 1.15
23-25 Mii Brawler - 1.15
26 Mr. Game & Watch - 1.1242
27 R.O.B. - 1.122
28-30 Mario - 1.1
28-30 Shulk - 1.1
28-30 Mewtwo - 1.1 (OLD 1.1.2 VALUE)

I believe Mewtwo is as fast as MK, there was no difference I could tell.

 

[Yikarur]

Mewtu has the (approximately) same run speed as Meta Knight and the same Walk Speed as Charizard.

 

[Game7a1]

Mr. Game & Watch ---

• Down Special 1/2/3
  • Does significantly less damage (half?) when used with teammate attacks.

I did some testing with default oil panic, and I think the total damage of it from receiving a teammate's projectile is divided by ~3.7. I tested with Cloud and Mewtwo, and there was the earlier video showcasing using Sheik here.

Spoiler: Some Math

When using Mewtwo, I did two uncharged Shadow Balls (each does 2.5) and a fully charge one (25). So in total, that's 29. When team-bucketed, the resulting damage is 23 (freshness included)
30 * 2.8 = 84, then 84 * 1.05 = 88.2 (fresh total), then 88.2 / 23 ~ 3.83 (it's actually 3 and 96/115).
When using Cloud Ground Blade Beam, it does 8 damage. Sheik's Vanish does 12, but Game & Watch will bucket a total of 24 from both. The resulting damage is 19 (freshness included).
24 * 2.8 = 67.2, then 67.2 * 1.05 = 70.56, then 70.56 / 19 ~ 3.71.
Because we have different divisor, I think the number lies between 3.7 and 3.8.
I'll be honest, I don't know if these moves stale when bucketed (and if they do, the dividing number shouldn't be too far from my estimated 3.8). Would really appreaciate it if someone could verify my results.

EDIT: Did some fixings to my numbers and reasoning.
Also, Mii Gunner's Absorbing Vortex is also affected by the team attack heal. Tested it with Mewtwo's fully charged Shadow Ball.
Enemy Shadow Ball = 30%
Ally Shadow Ball = 21%

 

[Terotrous]

I don't want to distract from the testing effort, but I'd just like to say that there's a lot of changes in this patch that I'm very happy with. In particular, the change to absorbing moves when team attack is turned on. This was clearly a degenerate strategy and the fact that it was so dominant caused me to have little interest in doubles as a metagame. More importantly, though, this indicates that the dev team is actually paying attention to the american tournament scene, as this change was made specifically to balance out those moves when Team Attack is turned on, which isn't the default rule setting. Might we some day see an option to have timeouts be decided by percentage rather than sudden death? One can dream.

There's also some nice buffs to some of the characters who just haven't been getting much results. Kirby in particular looks like he could be quite a lot better now, and obviously Mewtwo is going to be way more dangerous than before. Dthrow -> Fair, even if it only works at low percents, is pretty terrifying for a character who has an excellent grab game. Overall there's not much I'm dissatisfied with with this patch, which might be a first.

 

[Luig]

Here, I recorded MewTwo's run speed against MK's

I will now eat my toaster waffles.

 

[double_axle]

Shulk frame buffs, Robin frame buffs and largened hitboxes, and finally Kirby KBG buffs. This is my chirstmas, Direct was a disappointment for me, this redeems everything, the three characters I play, get a buffs. Praised be lord Sakurai's name.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

So Sonic has been checked 50%, so far, no changes. Now that the patch is out, can anyone confirm if he's been nerfed in any way?

 

[BSP]

What is kbh and bkg? And the angle is that counted in degrees? Like what is completely right/ left and up/right?

Bkg is base knockback. It's knockback of a move regardless of the receiving character's %. Good example of high base knockback is Ness Fthrow.

Kbg is knockback growth and tells you how a move's knockback scales with the receiving character's %. Good example of high kbg is Ness Bthrow.

I believe all angles are in degrees with 0 being completely horizontal in the direction the attacker is facing, 90 straight up, 180 completely horizontal in the opposite direction, and 270 straight down.

K Kaiyedy I've found no changes to Pac-Man, including fruit strength.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I tested this for you using my two 3DS's, and unfortunately my findings were the same across both versions, 1.1.2 and 1.1.3. I pushed a level 3 AI Mario to the very edge of Final Destination for these tests. Forward Smash killed at 72% across both versions, and Forward Tilt killed at 106% across both versions. Sorry!

Gaah, I might have done my own testing wrong. I did it with fully charged FSmashes if that means anything.

 

[Luig]

An unangled forward smash from LM has a sourspot. That might have messed up the results....

 

[adom4]

I'm so glad Dark dive is usable OOS now, it's actually safe on grab for a change + it kills decently enough near the ledge.
I'm excited about Ganon's Dair buff, it'll make comboing out of it a bit easier.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

An unangled forward smash from LM has a sourspot. That might have messed up the results....

...

How have I not realized this.
TIME TO RECALCULATE!

 

[Luig]

...

How have I not realized this.
TIME TO RECALCULATE!

If you hit them too close, it does less damage, and thus, less knockback.

 

[Nefnoj]

So wait - Villager does less damage when he pockets a teammate's attack... I didn't even know he could pocket teammate's attacks, does this only apply to when friendly fire is on? I know that you can pocket the Killer Eye's attacks, regardless on who he's fighting for.
If they nerf him, I eat a child.

 

[zeldasmash]

Link's F-air though......Bomb > Fair is much more dangerous due to how much earlier it kills now and both slashes are safe on shield. Dsmash also kills earlier which is a nice touch considering it's his faster smash attack.

 

[Terotrous]

So wait - Villager does less damage when he pockets a teammate's attack... I didn't even know he could pocket teammate's attacks, does this only apply to when friendly fire is on? I know that you can pocket the Killer Eye's attacks, regardless on who he's fighting for.

Team Attack on only.

 

[Luig]

Link's F-air though......Bomb > Fair is much more dangerous due to how much earlier it kills now and both slashes are safe on shield. Dsmash also kills earlier which is a nice touch considering it's his faster smash attack.

I tested it.
Dmsash is now his strongest smash, provided it's sweetspotted.

 

[Radical Larry]

Link's F-air though......Bomb > Fair is much more dangerous due to how much earlier it kills now and both slashes are safe on shield. Dsmash also kills earlier which is a nice touch considering it's his faster smash attack.

Link has had a plethora of buffs to make him much more dangerous in this patch.

Link's F-Air having 11% and 13% damage on the first and second hits makes it something to respect with heavy authority. It's a better KO tool, easier to poke shields with (and possibly break shields), it's a better edge getup tool and it's overall a great combo finisher. Thanks to Link's range with the attack, this is something to respect.

Secondly, D-Smash killing earlier will be something to also respect, so he's going to be a very dangerous character at that performance. And let's talk about his D-Air. It even had a damage buff and a grounded buff that makes it extremely useful on opponents, even shielded opponents.

The first hit deals the standard 15% damage, but since the meteor knockback for opponents who are grounded has changed to have weak horizontal knockback, it will lead to the second hit far more efficiently at higher damages now. Previously it would meteor and make Link bounce only once when the opponent reached around 50%, but now Link can link into the second attack, which deals 11% damage (instead of 8%) up to 60% damage on light opponents and about 80% on heavier opponents. Remember, that totals to 26% damage total if both attacks link up, and that can do some damage on shields, too. Shielding Link if he does this now makes it harder for you to keep your shield.

Overall, Link's buffs make him much, much more dangerous on an opponent's shields, so if he gets close, you better try dodging. You can't go against him if he has the ledge getup option of using F-Air, since he will hit you with high damage. These changes make Link a shield breaking character and possibly a far more viable sword fighter.

He has frame data issues, but that is now compensated with some very high attack power now.

 

[Game7a1]

Mr. Game & Watch ---

• Down Special 1/2/3
  • Does significantly less damage (half?) when used with teammate attacks.

I did some testing with default oil panic, and I think the total damage of it from receiving a teammate's projectile is divided by ~3.7. I tested with Cloud and Mewtwo, and there was the earlier video showcasing using Sheik here.

Spoiler: Some Math

When using Mewtwo, I did two uncharged Shadow Balls (each does 2.5) and a fully charge one (25). So in total, that's 29. When team-bucketed, the resulting damage is 23 (freshness included)
30 * 2.8 = 84, then 84 * 1.05 = 88.2 (fresh total), then 88.2 / 23 ~ 3.83 (it's actually 3 and 96/115).
When using Cloud Ground Blade Beam, it does 8 damage. Sheik's Vanish does 12, but Game & Watch will bucket a total of 24 from both. The resulting damage is 19 (freshness included).
24 * 2.8 = 67.2, then 67.2 * 1.05 = 70.56, then 70.56 / 19 ~ 3.71.
Because we have different divisor, I think the number lies between 3.7 and 3.8.
I'll be honest, I don't know if these moves stale when bucketed (and if they do, the dividing number shouldn't be too far from my estimated 3.8). Would really appreaciate it if someone could verify my results.

EDIT: Did some fixings to my numbers and reasoning.
Also, Mii Gunner's Absorbing Vortex is also affected by the team attack heal. Tested it with Mewtwo's fully charged Shadow Ball.
Enemy Shadow Ball = 30%
Ally Shadow Ball = 21%

I did a bit more math with this, but using Ness this time (used his PK Thunder (8%) and maximum PK Flash (37%). Using Three PK Thunders or one max PK Flash is an instant 60% (63% with freshness). However, from a teammate, the values are different (obviously).

Spoiler: More Math

Max PK Flash Bucket: 37 * 2.8 * 1.05 = 108.78
The resulting damage from an Ally PK Flash was 28%, so 108.78 / 28 = 3.885. So the divisor is closer to 3.9 now.
Pk Thunder x 2 (16%) and a Max PK Flash: 53 * 2.8 * 1.05 = 155.82.
The resulting damage using the teammate's attacks, though, was 33%. So 155.82 / 33 = 4.721818....
Now the divisor is closer to 5. How is this possible? Well, i did a different test.
2 Enemy PK Thunders + 1 Ally PK Thunder resulted in 48%. Remove the freshness, and we have 45 + (5/7). Divide by 2.8, and we get 16.326. Since we know PK Thunder 2 does 8%, if we remove the Enemy PK Thunders, we habe, well, about 0.326.

There doesn't seem to be a set value for how much damage will be induced. Rather, there may be a scaling divisor. It is also why my divisor between Cloud/Sheik and Mewtwo were different. There should be, though, a minimum and maximum for the scaling divisor, but in most cases, the bucket (full of team projectiles) will do less than half as much damage as it did before (or just as much if bucket filled with either enemy and ally projectiles ends up being 18%). Worst case, it does slightly more than third less (-42%) than it usually does. Best case, either the same (18%) or slightly over half (like in my second Ness test).
Can't comment on how (healing) absorb works.

 

[LieSander]

Bowser can now do up throw to up air, killing at around 90% without rage.

Hoo hah on THIS guy? They've turned him into a tru monster.

 

[G. Stache]

Bowser can now do up throw to up air, killing at around 90% without rage.

Hoo hah on THIS guy? They've turned him into a tru monster.

To be fair he still has his problems, him being a heavy and all. They just gave him something they should've done a long time ago: consistent killing power.