1.1.3 Patch Notes Discussion

[Luig]

Maybe next patch Sakurai will give us patch notes as a going away gift. Just maybe.

Please don't interrupt my hopeless thinking ;_;

 

[S_B]

To be fair he still has his problems, him being a heavy and all. They just gave him something they should've done a long time ago: consistent killing power.

Yeah, Bowser has needed a confirm like this for a while. Was kinda hoping they'd work in some kind of shield break combo if you trap your opponent just right, but this is fine, too.

They also fixed it so Bowser snaps to the ledge when approaching it backwards, which was a HUGE flaw for him because it basically meant he was going to be eating a smash attack if he recovered backwards, or got spiked.

I'm happy to see so many buffs for characters who badly need them, scratching my head over the lack of Sheik/ZSS nerfs, and hoping we'll see more buffs for some of the characters who still need them in the coming patches.

I don't even play DHD, for example, but it's a fun character to watch in tourneys and the poor dog's smash attacks don't even chain together properly, like, at all.

Still, Sakurai came in like a wrecking ball for Bowser players so I can't complain.

 

[outfoxd]

Yeah, Bowser has needed a confirm like this for a while. Was kinda hoping they'd work in some kind of shield break combo if you trap your opponent just right, but this is fine, too.

They also fixed it so Bowser snaps to the ledge when approaching it backwards, which was a HUGE flaw for him because it basically meant he was going to be eating a smash attack if he recovered backwards, or got spiked.

I'm happy to see so many buffs for characters who badly need them, scratching my head over the lack of Sheik/ZSS nerfs, and hoping we'll see more buffs for some of the characters who still need them in the coming patches.

I don't even play DHD, for example, but it's a fun character to watch in tourneys and the poor dog's smash attacks don't even chain together properly, like, at all.

Still, Sakurai came in like a wrecking ball for Bowser players so I can't complain.

I'd be less sad if i knew why characters like DH, Jiggs and Zelda don't catch breaks. Like If they're ticking some criterion for "balanced" i just don't see from an admittedly limited perspective.

 

[S_B]

I'd be less sad if i knew why characters like DH, Jiggs and Zelda don't catch breaks. Like If they're ticking some criterion for "balanced" i just don't see from an admittedly limited perspective.

Yeah, I've heard that Sakurai predominantly pays attention to the Japanese tournament scene for tweaks and balances, though I can't really verify that either way.

Are there some crazy good DHD mains in Japan that I've never heard about?

 

[outfoxd]

Yeah, I've heard that Sakurai predominantly pays attention to the Japanese tournament scene for tweaks and balances, though I can't really verify that either way.

Are there some crazy good DHD mains in Japan that I've never heard about?

Yusan does work sometimes. I think Brood isn't as active.

 

[expansioN]

Sheik has finally been nerfed YES

Proof
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

 

[Luig]

Sheik has finally been nerfed YES

Proof
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Did you read the OP?

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Sheik has finally been nerfed YES

Proof
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

So unfunny, there are people who really need this, you know?

 

[Luig]

Sorry if I'm getting off topic, but there's only 1 more patch to go before patching is done, and if they don't do something about shiek, then she'll dominate the metagame.... not as much as brawl MK, but still....

 

[jwj442]

Sorry if I'm getting off topic, but there's only 1 more patch to go before patching is done, and if they don't do something about shiek, then she'll dominate the metagame.... not as much as brawl MK, but still....

We don't know that the Corrin/Bayo update will be the last patch. It'll be the last update with new content (barring a surprise Wolf return), but they could easily keep a small team for maintenance and balance updates, even if Sakurai himself moves on.

 

[expansioN]

Did you read the OP?

Yes. I am embracing my ban.

So unfunny, there are people who really need this, you know?

Everyone needs this including myself (and except Sheik mains)

 

[KakuCP9]

Sorry if I'm getting off topic, but there's only 1 more patch to go before patching is done, and if they don't do something about shiek, then she'll dominate the metagame.... not as much as brawl MK, but still....

Tbh I think Sheik may be more in-line with PM Fox. At first they start as disgustingly broken characters and then get toned down to reasonably obnoxious but still the best characters in the game that require a lot of time for someone to fully utilize their strength. 'sides, as Thinkaman said in the CCI, someone worse may take her place so it's best to count our blessings at this point.

 

[Djent]

I don't want to distract from the testing effort, but I'd just like to say that there's a lot of changes in this patch that I'm very happy with. In particular, the change to absorbing moves when team attack is turned on. This was clearly a degenerate strategy and the fact that it was so dominant caused me to have little interest in doubles as a metagame. More importantly, though, this indicates that the dev team is actually paying attention to the american tournament scene, as this change was made specifically to balance out those moves when Team Attack is turned on, which isn't the default rule setting. Might we some day see an option to have timeouts be decided by percentage rather than sudden death? One can dream.

You're right this is a significant change and is one worth celebrating, but it's worth remembering that Team Attack shenanigans were as least as, if not more, dominant in Japan than in America. Umebura 17 had two Sheik/G&W teams in GFs, and Umebura FAT saw two TA strategies in top 4 even with Vanish Bucket banned. Who knows which scene(s) in particular inspired them to swing the nerfhammer?

 

[Rezialn]

While fighting a Villager with Cloud on FG, an apple spawned. I was able to pick it up and eat it for a small health recovery.

I don't remember seeing this ever happening and I haven't reproduced it. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen it.

 

[Nefnoj]

While fighting a Villager with Cloud on FG, an apple spawned. I was able to pick it up and eat it for a small health recovery.

I don't remember seeing this ever happening and I haven't reproduced it. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen it.

Yeah, this happened before this update, it just has a very low chance of happening.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Probably very late, but I can confirm that Mewtwo walks at Charizard's pace now, and dashes at Meta Knight's speed. So, in number terms...

Walk: 1.0 -> 1.2
Dashing: 1.696 -> 1.9.

 

[Norvelas]

i honestly don't get the point in touching Marth's DB. testing it out, it feels like..nothing was changed to begin with. on paper, i can't even tell if it's considered a buff or a nerf or just neutral. on top of that, i keep hearing or reading that it was changed so that DB can connect better, but it feels like it connects the same as it did before

 

[VPTurnip]

While fighting a Villager with Cloud on FG, an apple spawned. I was able to pick it up and eat it for a small health recovery.

I don't remember seeing this ever happening and I haven't reproduced it. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen it.

Yeah, Trees have always spawned fruit. Just like Peach can spawn a Beam Sword instead of a Turnip. It's saved me a couple of times, actually. (As a Villager main)
Does anyone know the spawn rate chance, by the way?


On another subject Link's Fair is amazing now, I can safely poke shields! I just managed to kill another Link with Fair from the middle of Wily's Castle when they had somewhere around 70-90%? Provided, he didn't DI. But all in all that's great.

 

[Vipermoon]

i honestly don't get the point in touching Marth's DB. testing it out, it feels like..nothing was changed to begin with. on paper, i can't even tell if it's considered a buff or a nerf or just neutral. on top of that, i keep hearing or reading that it was changed so that DB can connect better, but it feels like it connects the same as it did before

You're right. The 2nd hit has much less knockback growth but that doesn't matter because the 2nd hit completely misses at mid to high percents in the first place. The only good thing that came out of this is 1, 2, down 3, tipper forward 4 which works at specific high-ish percents. But that has nothing to do with the 2nd hit, just the 3rd downward damage, knockback, and angle change.

 

[PHP]

So, has everything been confirmed in this patch, or are they still checking characters?

 

[Kapus]

I'm loooooooooooooooooving those Robin buffs. Kirby getting a bit stronger in pretty much every way is cool too.

The Bowser buffs seem kinda odd?? But I love Bowser so I'm not complaining.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I have a question regarding the changes to bucket.

What happens if you catch a mixture of allied and enemy projectiles?

 

[VPTurnip]

Only things like endlag on a few characters moves are left to check, I think.

Also Kirby finally, finally has an uthrow kill. Yaaay.

Robin buffs are nice, especially since they buffed his main combo and kill moves besides Thoron.
Nair is a really solid option for Robin, and now that Fair has been buffed so much the Elfire > Fair > Fair combo is going to be down-right terrifying.

 

[Game7a1]

I have a question regarding the changes to bucket.

What happens if you catch a mixture of allied and enemy projectiles?

Weird damage output, as I explained in my earlier post.
"2 Enemy PK Thunders + 1 Ally PK Thunder resulted in 48%. Remove the freshness, and we have 45 + (5/7). Divide by 2.8, and we get 16.326. Since we know PK Thunder 2 does 8%, if we remove the Enemy PK Thunders, we have, well, about 0.326% [for the Ally PK Thunder]."
I did the inverse of this, and the bucket damage was 33%. Using the same method above, it was as if Game & Watch bucketed about 11% of damage. Since one of them was an enemy PK Thunder, that brings it down to about 3% (about 3.22%) from All PK Thunders. 3.22% is almost 2/10ths of the original 16%. The .326 from the previous test is about 4% of the absorbed 8%. If we separate the percents (we know what one 8% does to the bucket), then we end up with 3/8 for the second projectile (about 37.5% of the total).
Essentially, every Ally projectile's absorbed by the bucket does considerably less damage than usually. When mixed with enemy attacks, it only provides (Enemy attacks * 2.8) + a couple of percentage points (so each teammate projectiles follows a different formula). There doesn't seem to be a set value but more of a scaling one (like a function, so to speak). It may also be that each team projectile is also affected differently, which could explain the weird numbers, but this theory doesn't explain (yet) why two ways of getting to the same number (2 Vanishes versus 3 PK Thunders or Grounded Blade Beams) resulted in the same damage output (19% in this case).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Weird damage output, as I explained in my earlier post.
"2 Enemy PK Thunders + 1 Ally PK Thunder resulted in 48%. Remove the freshness, and we have 45 + (5/7). Divide by 2.8, and we get 16.326. Since we know PK Thunder 2 does 8%, if we remove the Enemy PK Thunders, we have, well, about 0.326% [for the Ally PK Thunder]."
I did the inverse of this, and the bucket damage was 33%. Using the same method above, it was as if Game & Watch bucketed about 11% of damage. Since one of them was an enemy PK Thunder, that brings it down to about 3% (about 3.22%) from All PK Thunders. 3.22% is almost 2/10ths of the original 16%. The .326 from the previous test is about 4% of the absorbed 8%. If we separate the percents (we know what one 8% does to the bucket), then we end up with 3/8 for the second projectle (about 37.5% of the total).
Essentially, every Ally projectile's absorbed by the bucket does considerably less damage than usually. When mixed with enemy attacks, it only provides (Enemy attacks * 2.8) + a couple of percentage points (so each teammate projectiles follows a different formula). There doesn't seem to be a set value but more of a scaling one (like a function, so to speak). It may also be that each team projectile is also affected differently, which could explain the weird numbers. The second theory does sound more plausible, though.

I wonder if the modifier to friendly projectiles is applied at the moment they're caught. It sounds easier to code it that way than it would be to muck around with complex formulas for the single oil spill.

But the tl;dr is "weirdness" and I'm surprisingly okay with that answer for now.

 

[S_B]

I don't 100% agree with the notion of buffing characters to Sheik level, ala PM, either. Because as you might recall, when PMDT tried to bring characters up to Fox's level, we got 3.0 Mewtwo and Lucas, and they were COMPLETELY bananas. There's a certain level of ability that characters can be pulled up to before things start getting stupid, and in Smash 4's case, that line is drawn somewhere around where ZSS is, NOT where Sheik is. If you try to cross that line with too many characters, you get results like PM 3.0, and no one wants that.

I absolutely agree that we shouldn't try to buff characters to Sheik's level. It's far easier to tone down a few problematic characters than it is to try to bring ALL characters up to S-tier.

And I think ZSS could stand to be toned down a bit as well (but this isn't the thread for that discussion)...

 

[RageOfAsia]

I dunno if it's just me, but did a few of the characters with Zairs get buffed? Like Link seems to have less landing lag along with Samus...

 

[Zeriora]

I dunno if it's just me, but did a few of the characters with Zairs get buffed? Like Link seems to have less landing lag along with Samus...

Link feels better, not sure about Samus though.

 

[ShadowPho3nix]

YESSS Ness is still safe

 

[theanjo]

Saw the Lucario fall speed change, and decided to look into how much it increased. I don't have video of it, but it seems like Lucario falls as fast as Marth now. Pretty easy to replicate with 1/4 speed & bunny hoods. That result wasn't the case in 1.1.2 if Kuroganehammer's right on the fall speed values, which has Lucario's fall speed being 1.56 and Marth's at 1.58.

 

[Game7a1]

I did a bit more math with this, but using Ness this time (used his PK Thunder (8%) and maximum PK Flash (37%). Using Three PK Thunders or one max PK Flash is an instant 60% (63% with freshness). However, from a teammate, the values are different (obviously).

Spoiler: More Math

Max PK Flash Bucket: 37 * 2.8 * 1.05 = 108.78
The resulting damage from an Ally PK Flash was 28%, so 108.78 / 28 = 3.885. So the divisor is closer to 3.9 now.
Pk Thunder x 2 (16%) and a Max PK Flash: 53 * 2.8 * 1.05 = 155.82.
The resulting damage using the teammate's attacks, though, was 33%. So 155.82 / 33 = 4.721818....
Now the divisor is closer to 5. How is this possible? Well, i did a different test.
2 Enemy PK Thunders + 1 Ally PK Thunder resulted in 48%. Remove the freshness, and we have 45 + (5/7). Divide by 2.8, and we get 16.326. Since we know PK Thunder 2 does 8%, if we remove the Enemy PK Thunders, we habe, well, about 0.326.

There doesn't seem to be a set value for how much damage will be induced. Rather, there may be a scaling divisor. It is also why my divisor between Cloud/Sheik and Mewtwo were different. There should be, though, a minimum and maximum for the scaling divisor, but in most cases, the bucket (full of team projectiles) will do less than half as much damage as it did before (or just as much if bucket filled with either enemy and ally projectiles ends up being 18%). Worst case, it does slightly more than third less (-42%) than it usually does. Best case, either the same (18%) or slightly over half (like in my second Ness test).
Can't comment on how (healing) absorb works.

Still continuing my research for this, I added in a Star Rod (both f-tlit star, which does about 7%, and uncharged smash star, which does about 9.5%).

Spoiler: More Math... again

Uncharged smash star * 2 + Max PK Flash = 56.
56 * 2.8 * 1.05 = 164.64. The resulting bucket was 35.
164.64 / 35 = 4.7. So around 4.7.
I also decided to see what is the minimum damage Game & Watch needs to do over 18%.
Using two PK Thunders + Star Rod F-tilt star = 23%, but the bucket damage is 18%, so he needs to bucket at least 24% to do over 18% of damage.
Now, I also added a Super Mushroom to increase the power of Ness's PK Flash, but when I do Super Max PK Flash + 2 Uncharged smash stars, I still got 35%. Doing more damage will probably require so high of a number that it's not really feasible in competitive doubles.

So, in short for Game & Watch's default bucket with team projectiles.

• Needs to bucket at least 24% to do over 18% of damage.
• Max (feasible) damage probably around 35%. It could be more (like reaching max 63%), but it would require a very high power projectile.
• Damage dealt seems to be varying. The divisor may be a scaling one, but it could be between 3.5 and 5 (given that the bucket does a maximum of 63%, doing about half is still possible, but it'll just be harder).
• This scaling divisor affects each projectile or total damaged absorbed.

I don't know how the custom buckets work, but I assume Overload Panic (Down-B 3) should be similar to default bucket and Efficient Panic (Down-B 2) should be similar to either the buckets or healing absorbs.
Either way, it's complicated, weird, and not worth using in doubles as frequently as before. It might be best to wait for the actual code to be found.

 

[Luig]

Can confirm Link's zair still has the same landing lag.

 

[Raziek]

@LordWilliam1234 : I see you're looking at Robin, so maybe you can help us out.

We're able to connect follow-ups out of D-throw at much larger percent windows than before.

I have already ruled out jumpsquat and Uair start-up changes personally, are you able to check endlag on D-throw?

 

[Luig]

I tested it side by side, Robin's dthrow has the same kb and end lag....

 

[Kaiyedy]

There's probably going to be two more patches coming up, maybe more depending on wether or not Baeonetta and Corren come out at the same time. One for each new character and another about a month after to stabilize them.

On the note on sheik and ZSS being nerfed, If we want that change to happen we really gotta voice it. Sakurai pays more attention to the Japanese scene, so if we want to be heard we need to voice our opinions now.

 

[Ffamran]

Saw the Lucario fall speed change, and decided to look into how much it increased. I don't have video of it, but it seems like Lucario falls as fast as Marth now. Pretty easy to replicate with 1/4 speed & bunny hoods. That result wasn't the case in 1.1.2 if Kuroganehammer's right on the fall speed values, which has Lucario's fall speed being 1.56 and Marth's at 1.58.

Perhaps this has to do with their gravity? Marth's gravity is 0.075 which is below average while Lucario's is 0.084. So, they could be falling at different speeds, but Lucario's closing in on his fall speed faster than Marth.

 

[Gawain]

I can confirm that Roy's endlag and IASA on everything that matters is exactly the same, tested through side by side analysis. Captain Falcon is also completely unchanged in these same regards. Honestly you can probably leave both their categories as no change and just bump them to 100 lol

Tested on two 3DS with both versions.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do the fallspeed changes with Lucario change much with him fast falling now in terms of how fast he can get to the ground?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Waiting for our hoo-ha.

Sorry, *huah-huah*".

 

[Funen1]

There's already been talk about how move absorption has changed in doubles, but for reference if nothing else, I made a brief video to demonstrate that specifically Ness and Lucas' PSI Magnets were indeed affected as well. Video quality's nothing special or anything, but I hope it's clear enough all the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwpR1yCwx6Q

Obviously a nerf compared to what it was, but if you ask me any healing is still better than none at all. It would take something even more drastic than this to make the whole "get a partner with energy projectiles" strategy basically unviable.