...Zero Suit?
Not... Meta Knight?
Not... Meta Knight?
-
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(」・ω・)」 MARS la Marf in Smash 4 (／・ω・)／
- Thread starter Virgilijus
- Start date
there is a fatal flaw in zero suit's recovery -
During her down b invincibility, if you hit her with tipper back air you'll proc hit lag which will still hit her as she comes out of her invincibility (think brinstar pillars). Furthermore, once she uses her down b, she doesn't get it back until she gets back on stage.
While other moves are capable of doing the same, back air is quite special in it's stupendous vertical range and hit lag length - not many other moves Marth can safely hit zss during her down b without getting meteor spiked kicked to the knee.
During her down b invincibility, if you hit her with tipper back air you'll proc hit lag which will still hit her as she comes out of her invincibility (think brinstar pillars). Furthermore, once she uses her down b, she doesn't get it back until she gets back on stage.
While other moves are capable of doing the same, back air is quite special in it's stupendous vertical range and hit lag length - not many other moves Marth can safely hit zss during her down b without getting meteor spiked kicked to the knee.
How does she recover with only up b or side b tether when marth butt ***** tether recoveries (dolphin slash regrab)?
She doesn't exactly have great horizontal acceleration (not talking max air speed here), once she's missing down b she's a floating duck. With clipped wings.
Bair beats her down b.
Once she doesn't have down b.
She.
Dies.
Pretty.
Easily.
Once she doesn't have down b.
She.
Dies.
Pretty.
Easily.
Zano
Smash Master
Shaya's response to everything, just bair it : P
I'll do a digest -
ZSS's down b makes her recovery very strong for the following reasons:
1. It auto footstools for an elongated horizontal recovery
2. It provides a significantly long time period of invincibility
3.
a. Her 'attack' out of it comes out very quickly
b. Is her strongest knockback growth attack
c. It's a spike
d. The range of it is pretty frikken good
I would say there are only 3 'safe' moves in the game which an enemy can use against ZSS to beat her recovery - considering her footstool jump and the range/power of the attack part.
Meta Knight's down air.
Marth's back air.
Dedede's Forward air (lol).
Nearly every other move that I can think of doesn't have the range/disjoint to beat her down b without putting yourself at dying risk (yeah oli's up b can hit her out of it, but it will likely get him killed).
Why do those 3 moves 'work'?
They all have longer horizontal + vertical range (+disjoint) than her down b kick and her auto footstool 'reactionbox'. And primarily the notable thing is that they're all horizontal knockback moves (I'm sure there are a few uairs that can beat out her down b, but that would likely only help her recover).
Dedede's forward air aside, the two other aforementioned moves are very low start up. In MK's case, the cool down is very low, and in Marth's case he abuses the fact that ZSS's invincible hurtbox still procs hit lag of similar frame length as her invincibility (I think ZSS has a 2 frame leeway of safety). In my opinion, the opportunity for Marth to use back air against ZSS is better than MK's down air - primarily because of how stupid the hitbox is and that it can very easily be used out of a ledge drop (unlike MK who has to have reasonable prep time/position ABOVE zss).
The kicker is the part where if ZSS uses her down b, she cannot use it again until she lands on stage.
After she loses her down b (which for 90% of the cast after she uses it, she's completely ****ing safe) she's barely better than Ivysaur.
Characters with super long horizontal range moves (Diddy's fair) I've seen capowww zss's down b too, but the opportunities are less apparent.
ZSS's down b makes her recovery very strong for the following reasons:
1. It auto footstools for an elongated horizontal recovery
2. It provides a significantly long time period of invincibility
3.
a. Her 'attack' out of it comes out very quickly
b. Is her strongest knockback growth attack
c. It's a spike
d. The range of it is pretty frikken good
I would say there are only 3 'safe' moves in the game which an enemy can use against ZSS to beat her recovery - considering her footstool jump and the range/power of the attack part.
Meta Knight's down air.
Marth's back air.
Dedede's Forward air (lol).
Nearly every other move that I can think of doesn't have the range/disjoint to beat her down b without putting yourself at dying risk (yeah oli's up b can hit her out of it, but it will likely get him killed).
Why do those 3 moves 'work'?
They all have longer horizontal + vertical range (+disjoint) than her down b kick and her auto footstool 'reactionbox'. And primarily the notable thing is that they're all horizontal knockback moves (I'm sure there are a few uairs that can beat out her down b, but that would likely only help her recover).
Dedede's forward air aside, the two other aforementioned moves are very low start up. In MK's case, the cool down is very low, and in Marth's case he abuses the fact that ZSS's invincible hurtbox still procs hit lag of similar frame length as her invincibility (I think ZSS has a 2 frame leeway of safety). In my opinion, the opportunity for Marth to use back air against ZSS is better than MK's down air - primarily because of how stupid the hitbox is and that it can very easily be used out of a ledge drop (unlike MK who has to have reasonable prep time/position ABOVE zss).
The kicker is the part where if ZSS uses her down b, she cannot use it again until she lands on stage.
After she loses her down b (which for 90% of the cast after she uses it, she's completely ****ing safe) she's barely better than Ivysaur.
Characters with super long horizontal range moves (Diddy's fair) I've seen capowww zss's down b too, but the opportunities are less apparent.
Mr-R
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2008
- Messages
- 2,544
Although I agree with bair being a great counter against her down b. the above average zss players tend to DI with down b and thus saving their jump, which allows her to get back to the stage easier since your jump doesn't limit your movements as much as down b does. also they can mixup up with airdodge/attack/spacing away.
I find that situation not much worse tbqh, not necessarily death but she'll still have issues getting back on stage. She still has a hard time getting through nair or bair, Marth's fast fall speed is pretty appreciable, and if you're forced into getting hit by uair she's going likely to be forced to go for a ledge grab and then we can start edge guarding her for freee! (at a lot of percents at least)
Also yes, I do recall being a man with Ike's bair against ZSS. It's so sexy when people die to ike's back air.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
fact remains that you cannot force gimps, you cannot force any situation as long as she still has her DJ
if she recovers at midheight chasing is meh because boost jump puts enough vertical distance to make marth's edgeguarding a non-issue, admittedly its not an ideal situation for her to be in but free damage does not equal free stocks
if she recovers at midheight chasing is meh because boost jump puts enough vertical distance to make marth's edgeguarding a non-issue, admittedly its not an ideal situation for her to be in but free damage does not equal free stocks
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
No offense Shaya, but aren't you really bad at this game? Seems kinda weird you're trying to theorycraft this ***** when you lack the skills to properly evaluate and implement options.
Wait wait, what I meant to say is this: aren't you really bad at this game, no offense.
Wait wait, what I meant to say is this: aren't you really bad at this game, no offense.
_Kadaj_
Smash Hero
Why do you guys care so much?
All you guys do is try to **** on other people whilst giving no information in your own defense, Shaya could probably ask you the same question tbh.
If you don't have anything to contribute nor you wish to change the topic or don't say **** on the matter, I don't think anyone comes on here to see you sit on some imaginary pedestal and try and belittle other people
I agree with chair that the most you could do is force her into a disadvantageous situation and maybe get some percent off of it, but from there it becomes a reactionary game, more so than having to read their ledge recovery options.
All you guys do is try to **** on other people whilst giving no information in your own defense, Shaya could probably ask you the same question tbh.
If you don't have anything to contribute nor you wish to change the topic or don't say **** on the matter, I don't think anyone comes on here to see you sit on some imaginary pedestal and try and belittle other people
I agree with chair that the most you could do is force her into a disadvantageous situation and maybe get some percent off of it, but from there it becomes a reactionary game, more so than having to read their ledge recovery options.
I'll agree that I hyped up 'beating her recovery' as the same as 'beating her down b', but I didn't 'theorycraft' that at all, I wasn't precise, I was going by my experiences (I mentioned like one thing of frame data ; also I would have previously assumed hitboxes don't interact with invincible hurt boxes prior to me flat out seeing it after countless matches) - I could be very wrong, but there aren't very many characters in the game who actually have the options to gimp Zero Suit Samus - dolphin slash regrab being terrible for tether forced moments, back air being easily set up if ZSS has to use down b; these things add up - to where situations like these are likely to happen at least once per set (and that's honestly about as often as I get a fthrow dair gimp on Falco against a slightly better player than me), which imo are pretty procedural gimps.
Her being in the position of recovering off stage is generally at around the times fresh back air or neutral air can kill, so 'some percent' to me can mean very good opportunities that are actually close to 50/50. Compare to us swatting MK's recovery. Compare to Falco and Olimar - the latter being a bit easier, but I'd say ZSS is in between MK and Falco (maybe even worse than Snake who flat out never dies? maybe a bit harsh).
Her being in the position of recovering off stage is generally at around the times fresh back air or neutral air can kill, so 'some percent' to me can mean very good opportunities that are actually close to 50/50. Compare to us swatting MK's recovery. Compare to Falco and Olimar - the latter being a bit easier, but I'd say ZSS is in between MK and Falco (maybe even worse than Snake who flat out never dies? maybe a bit harsh).
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Kadaj, are you familiar with the concept of devil's advocate? Science argues that group performance increases when someone is assigned a devil's advocate. That person would provide the criticism needed to stop overoptimistic members of the group to take irrational decisions based on insufficient experience or data. To combine theory and practice, I'm here to fulfill that role, provided that no one else did it. Whether they feared being expulsed, or they are sincerely socially oriented, I fear and am neither and thus contribute to these boards. My contributions might not always have been conducive, but my role has been clear. I suggest that in the future you view problems less superficially, and ackknowledge a proper division of roles within groups.
Edit: Thank you Shaya, I appreciate the understanding.
Edit: Thank you Shaya, I appreciate the understanding.
_Kadaj_
Smash Hero
Tou che'
You probably shouldn't devil's advocate with double posting and then admit to being an *** (although I shouldn't expect anything else of you), NEVER CHANGE (no point in trying) 
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Ah, so you seem to have found an inconsistency in my behavior. Might it just be that I tried to rationalize my actions ex post facto? Internal consistency is not what I strive to achieve; instead I impulsively post one-liners to these boards. Afterwards I then try to somewhat justify my actions, which then you seem to accept as truth without condition.
It is at least strange you perceive my lack of consistency to be funny or clever, as this inconsistency was the reason I wrote the post. My point in saying this is that I knew of that consistency. Mentioning it by posting a one-liner yourself doesn't make you look clever. To be honest, you're just late to the party.
Subsequently, you try to insult me by claiming I can't change. I might not ever change, that is true. But that is only true in the sense that I will never post differently on smashboards. In the broad spectrum of life, you comment is nothing more than the place these posts on smashboards occupy. Lastly, I applaud your attempt to humour. But in the future try to be more creative. I know your capabilities exceed this level.
It is at least strange you perceive my lack of consistency to be funny or clever, as this inconsistency was the reason I wrote the post. My point in saying this is that I knew of that consistency. Mentioning it by posting a one-liner yourself doesn't make you look clever. To be honest, you're just late to the party.
Subsequently, you try to insult me by claiming I can't change. I might not ever change, that is true. But that is only true in the sense that I will never post differently on smashboards. In the broad spectrum of life, you comment is nothing more than the place these posts on smashboards occupy. Lastly, I applaud your attempt to humour. But in the future try to be more creative. I know your capabilities exceed this level.
But I've been up all night doing university work.
And I had to be up in 2 hours anyway,
and then I planned on sleeping for a day afterwards.
And I had to be up in 2 hours anyway,
and then I planned on sleeping for a day afterwards.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
For this one time, you are forgiven. My expectations are high though.
Hypocrite :|
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Hypocrisy influences validity nor soundness of a statement; it is a bad excuse, a john, for failing to meet expectations the rest of the group cannot meet. Consider me the rest of the group, and the expectations arbitrary and irrational. You are to meet these expectations however, as you are a moderator.
KassandraNova
Smash Master
So uhh... Hi marfs! ^_^
Just thought I'd introduce myself since I'm picking up marth.
Just thought I'd introduce myself since I'm picking up marth.
Zano
Smash Master
I'm ditching white marth for black marth, it's time I became mainstream
Zano
Smash Master
nah, you got outplaced by mumble and I outplaced him last tourney we were at
Nike.
Smash Hero
I just got ***** by Leaf in a mm.
And Tofer 3stocked me. I'm garbage.
And Tofer 3stocked me. I'm garbage.
Zano
Smash Master
Nike for worst marth in texas
Nike.
Smash Hero
Tofer's dollar was on the line.
I had to.
I had to.