(」・ω・)」 MARS la Marf in Smash 4 (／・ω・)／

[Kuro~]

Yo **** you. Ness/marth is equivalent to fox vs pika. You SHOULDN'T lose that. But it CAN and probably WILL happen.
I could of gave advice i wasn't sure of like every other god **** person to float smash boards but i didn't.

 

[Zano]

But I'm terrible so I need any advice I can get. I had no idea how to fight ness so I didn't know what to do that makes the MU so favorable for us.

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

Marth's nair and ftilt (or jab iirc) beats Ness's fair, so if he does any approach with it you can beat him without much effort. PK Fire isn't safe at all, it's easy to walk and powershield it for a free smash/db. If he tries to PK Thunder 2 at you, if you shield it you get a free DS out of shield because he lags for a moment when it hits. His recovery in general is pretty easy to gimp if you are waiting for when he starts, as 1 fair finishes him with an edgeguard. In general, most of Marth's moves simply out range Ness's, so you can just retreat aerials and dtilt and he can't do much about it. The infinite regrab is just icing on the cake.

It honestly takes a lot of effort to lose vs Ness. When I was brand new to the Smash scene, at my first tournament ever, in the first round I played against FAE's Ness. It went down to last stock last hit, and I only lost because my friend/ride there didn't know it was tournament, and clapped his hand on my shoulder after a nice tipper fsmash. I looked away, distracted, and got bair'd and couldn't recover. (I was pretty salty.)

 

[Shaya]

It was actually the falco's who wanted marth to +1, the entire marth panel was either 'its even' or 'we don't really care if its even or +1'

 

[ぱみゅ]

I really think Olimar does beat marth, even if slightly.
I'd call it dead even, but that's just me.
*back to lurking*

 

[ScareMl]

Something I've been wondering about is if we only have 3 bad MUs, and many even or advantageous ones, how come the best we can do is 17th place at an international tournament (Apex)? I'm not saying I would do any better, but as the 5th best character in the game, we should be placing better than that. I really enjoy watching marth players because it helps me improve, and i want to see more reach out and go farther in big tournies. I mean, c'mon, Oli, Pika, and ICs, who are below us on the tier list, placed higher at Apex...

 

[Zano]

It's because we don't have any high lv MUs that we just **** at, so matches can go either way pretty easily since we're about even with everyone and their mom.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Maybe because those bad MUs happens to be some of the most common ones? (Diddy, MK)
Without one of them on scene, Marth might have better placings...

 

[Sylarius]

Marth players haven't really reached their potential yet either.

EDIT: Also, Olimar is probably going up on the next tier list. And, well... I guess kyokoro said enough.

Mike had to play ADHD

 

[ScareMl]

yeah i was expecting him to pull off another g2 crew battle style comeback

 

[Player-3]

 

[Nike.]

I'm a very big gheb suppoter (ever since he said japan would **** apex and everyone called him a fool).
But some of our controversial MU's (EX: olimar and falco) are because of opposing panels either arguing adv marth or not really caring to argue it as even. A lot of the controversial MU's were also decided by that final panel during phase3.

Snake I've always secretly thought was even.
Just never bothered to bring it up, though, because I'd be against the world lol.
Olimar I think is even.
Falco I think is even.
Pikachu/sonic depend on: is it esam or espy/x playing the MU?
Because they are so far ahead of their characters's overall metagame and are just extremely good players.
Kirby feels like we win. And then he fsmashes and we die at 80. But they don't exist anymore

 

[Cassio]

fyi falln and mike, top level players of their character, both live in the same region.

Also just to lend some support to ESAM, Marth is one of the least divisive MUs among pikas especially amongs the most successful players, even a few holdouts have been more agreeable to 0 recently. We just have differing opinions of what our tough MUs are. I also dont think its fair to single out ESAM's opinions overall, as the one who matched his opinions most closely was Anther.

 

[Reizilla]

I'll double three-stock K Prime and Leaf this weekend and put an end to this nonsense.

 

[Lord Chair]

Honestly the Marth panel was surprisingly weak. I remember the Wario v. Marth discussion:

This hasn't really gone anywhere so far, I thought my earlier post on how disappointing all this is was enough of a statement.

There have been:
- Superficial statements about the matchup everyone in here is aware of already.
- Some back and forth statements about our experiences with this matchup (as in, who have we played).
- A small discussion about Lylat cruise, a stage that really isn't relevant to this matchup.
- Null statements on what the ratio should be (it's only +1 derp in case the fact that thread is here in the first place made you think otherwise).
- A couple of statements from Ramin and Anaky about how hard several gimmicks **** Wario (which I agree with), only to conclude that it's merely +1. Paraphrase: Marth ***** Wario but it's just +1 lol.

Agreeing to disagree is a ******** attitude in a discussion like this. What about we just follow the ratio I mentioned because hell, I'm the only one giving arguments? No Chair, that's not how it works. Indeed it isn't, I'm glad I wasted so much time on this.

Consequently:

place as unresolved

What the hell.

It's sad to see the results of terrible debating in a project that apparently has consequences like these. People still don't even come close to agreeing on a matchup and the average player assumes that after several pages of discussion parties finally agreed to what it eventually came to be.

Don't heed much attention to the MU chart if you want to reason as to why Marth's performance is still mediocre. It's not the character, it's the current limited lineup of people playing the character.

 

[Cassio]

Rei we can have a MM when you come to AX. Except in the spirit of AX instead of playing smash we're going to cosplay brawl as Pikachu and Marth.

 

[Reizilla]

LMAO. I'm not planning my trip around AX any more. I'll probably be going mid to late August. But we can do that anyway ;p

 

[-Jumpman-]

I'm a very big gheb suppoter (ever since he said japan would **** apex and everyone called him a fool).
But some of our controversial MU's (EX: olimar and falco) are because of opposing panels either arguing adv marth or not really caring to argue it as even. A lot of the controversial MU's were also decided by that final panel during phase3.

Snake I've always secretly thought was even.
Just never bothered to bring it up, though, because I'd be against the world lol.
Olimar I think is even.
Falco I think is even.
Pikachu/sonic depend on: is it esam or espy/x playing the MU?
Because they are so far ahead of their characters's overall metagame and are just extremely good players.
Kirby feels like we win. And then he fsmashes and we die at 80. But they don't exist anymore

Lol, someone is right once --> become fan. Must suck being that dumb

 

[Espy Rose]

I wouldn't trust Gheb ever. He's always up to no good.

 

[Cassio]

Lol, someone is right once --> become fan. Must suck being that dumb

>pulling non-existent context from a statement and then accusing someone of being dumb for something they didn't say.

Keep your feet on the ground, lol.

 

[KillLock]

Snake: I believe is +1 for Marth but at the same time I could see it being 0. I've played the mu from both sides so I have experience on both ends.
Olimar I think is even. (I have fantastic Olimar experience)
Falco I think is arguable at 0 or +1 but I'd lean more to +1 from experience.
Pikachu: I believe is even. Has a lot of fantastic options vs Marth. You may say Esam overrates his character but this doesn't stop him from placing at every national he attends, can you say the same?
Sonic: I could argue this as even or +1 but I feel that +1 would be just about right if Marth plays it correctly.
Kirby is a *****. LOLOL.

 

[Nike.]

Well I've actually always respected gheb. The work he puts in the japenese video thread, the research he puts into translating brackets, video searching, and actually studying most of them is crazy. He's a huge reason as to why we even have knowledge of their metagame.

I may still disagree with a few of his matchup opinions, but I understand what he's saying and still respect it. Dude really knows what he's talking about. Idk why he doesn't apply for the bbr of video forum modship.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Stop quoting Jumpman, guys. I don't wanna read that scumbag's posts.

It's because we don't have any high lv MUs that we just **** at, so matches can go either way pretty easily since we're about even with everyone and their mom.

This is a good example of people fooling themselves and imho is kind of stereotypical for a lot of people who play Marth. For we all know that this logic is not practical in tournament at all. What matters is how you deal with characters that you face in tourney often when it comes to actual viability, not the overall match-up spread.

Very few characters have "high level match-ups that we just **** at". Snake is roughly even or close to it with all high-tier characters and he's still placing better than Marth. The same holds true for ICs and Olimar who are both better characters than Marth for sure. But every time it comes down to getting the tourney placing Snake, Olimar, ICs, Diddy Kong almost always come before Marth and Falco / Pikachu often do too. There's a noticeable discrepancy between the expectations of the average Marth player in regards to his character and how the character actually performs.

Marth players haven't really reached their potential yet either.

On a worldwide scale Marth has a rather impressive playerbase with 3 top-level players, who also attend tourneys in 3 very different regions [Japan, WC, EU] and about 3 more high-level players using that character. That, backed up by at least two players who not only have a good theoretical understanding of the game in general but are also willing to share their knowledge [Pierce and CJ] is a complete luxury that almost no other character has. Previously mentioned characters are still doing better without all that and it can't be coincidence.

Realistically, if somebody still subsribes to Marth being a top 5 character or something like top 3 with MK gone -is- being deluded and from reading these boards I can definitely tell that too many people think that way. MK, Snake, ICs, Olimar, Diddy Kong are better without a doubt, Pikachu is arguably better and so is Falco. 6th best character is the most optimistic estimation for Marth on a realistic scale, 7th or 8th is probably the most realistic.

Also Nike, we cool. You always seemed to have both feet on the ground when it came to the character you use. I definitely think that it's part of the reason you improved a lot recently.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Good point Nike. Gheb, don't you think you should be thinking about your career?

 

[Sylarius]

I agree Marth is a good character, I just don't think he's being played well enough compared to other characters.
I personally think Snake is overrated though

 

[Shaya]

Honestly the Marth panel was surprisingly weak. I remember the Wario v. Marth discussion:



Consequently:



What the hell.

I couldn't do much for you there though man

 

[Zano]

Sorry Gheb, I'll admit that is a pretty dumb way of looking at it, I've just always thought of it for the reason why he's still considered so high yet places below characters ranked lower. I guess I should think more on things from experience rather than what I'm told.

 

[PEACE7]

What do we do have against game and watch? I know our upsmash beats his dair and we can upB a lot of his moves, and the grab release to fair. Share your knowledge of the mu with me everyone (KillLock)

MAKE KONY FAMOUS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4MnpzG5Sqc

 

[-Jumpman-]

Cut the kony bs, please people. "Oh my god a hype, I gotta join this and tell everyone!" Come on, no one knew about the ***** before this stuff, so why care now?

 

[PEACE7]

Because now i know

 

[-Jumpman-]

It's extremely hypocrite to not actively seek to know, but care when you do. Seems like have no intrinsic attitude that supports your behavior, but instead you follow a hype. You do know that empathy is only an excuse for lack of moral behavior, right?

 

[Sylarius]

It's extremely hypocrite to not actively seek to know, but care when you do. Seems like have no intrinsic attitude that supports your behavior, but instead you follow a hype. You do know that empathy is only an excuse for lack of moral behavior, right?

Everyone except you are morally wrong.
The post was unneeded...

 

[Espy Rose]

Jumpman, you are so lame.

 

[Zano]

Yeah, let's all give our money to a "charity" that isn't even donating more than 30% of the funds to actually helping people and using the rest to make a dumb *** film and line their own pockets while actual charities are also donating to this and aren't profiting. But wait, they didn't make a video with hip music and colorful images so they don't matter to the sheep following this for no reason other than to feel like they're making a difference because they donated because they were told to.


**** this whole thing.



also, read this http://wilwheaton.tumblr.com/post/18920717928/thedailywhat-on-kony-2012-i-honestly-wanted-to

 

[Reizilla]

Zano going hard.

 

[-Jumpman-]

But... but... I just wanted to show how everyone is dumb If I actually support it myself is irrelevant. Destroying stuff is easy, that's why I do it.

Sylarius, you're dumb stfu

 

[Kel]

I had a long conversation at APEX with Larry on the Marth Falco MU:

Larry believes it to be 50:50 simply because of the 0-death spike. He thinks that it can even out the MU enough to make the MU a coin flip.

However, can't Falcos tech the spike? Also, can't they just camp platforms and purposely take a 13% Fair and be done with the CG? Snakes used to use this strategy against Falco to avoid the CG to death (that is they would purposely take damage to prevent the CG death grab). Top tier Falcos will not be subjected to the 0- death, so at high level the Falco MU is probably in Falco's favor. He controls the spacing, camping, and aggression. Marth is just always trying to predict over Bs from double laser.


I still think that with MK gone ROB will become a problem. It's pretty agreed upon that Marth loses to Diddy and D3, but I think that if ROB is given a chance, he'll beat Marth.

 

[Raziek]

ROB could be -1 for us, but there's never any point I ever feel helpless in that match-up.

I almost beat Holy's ROB and he's better than I am, but I also have a ton of experience in that MU.

Both can do gross things to each other, feels pretty even overall.

 

[Nike.]

Somewhere, Kadaj is kicking his computer in.

 

[Raziek]

Oh right, Stingers. xD