‍♀️‍♀️‍♀️Official Zelda Video Archive - WIP get in here and post some ZELDA VODS GORLS ‍♀️‍♀️‍♀️

D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
Press 1 for ****ty tournament set :D


I actually liked this one (from Friday):


I actually hate this one because apparently you can't play rationally in tournament (like ever):



Don't call me out on button mashing because it's literally the best thing I do (when I do it right). Playing passively is bound to get you pwned (and it's boring so **** it). Also why is Falco's F-Air literally the single most annoying thing in the matchup.
 
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StoicPhantom

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Dec 11, 2018
Messages
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Press 1 for ****ty tournament set :D
Well, I at least really like that Nayru > Dair spike you did on that Falco. I've been trying to do that since I became aware of that possibility.

As for the matches in question, I'm struggling to do any deep analysis at the moment, so I'll just do some bullet points.

Ness

-What I said about you imposing your will too much really shows in this one. It's especially problematic on small characters, given how ****ing difficult it is to hit the damn things. This MU might a better one to learn how to bait his attacks with movement and other means and then you can turn up the aggression once you win neutral.

-Going with the above, Ness has a somewhat linear neutral, so baiting Fairs and punishing his landing should help a little. Just don't get tricked into punishing too early, lest you want to be hit by a second one.

-To further add on to that, don't forget you have other forms of spacing and momentum with your aerials. Don't just charge forward with them all the time, as that leads to overshooting sometimes. DI back a little if you need to. And however little, LK still has some DI if you hold it, which can mean the difference between landing the sweet-spot or not.

-It might be better to just hop over PK Fire than attempt to reflect it. Nayru isn't really that great of a reflector, on account of the copious amount of endlag. I think it would be better to just hop over it and charge an aerial Phantom to discourage future attempts or see if you can sneak a fast fall LK.

-Don't be afraid to snipe him with Phantom if he is offstage and above the ledge. He's floaty and difficult to punish offstage and you won't really lose anything using Phantom.

Pichu

-Spacing fast fall Nair in a certain way, will pop them up similar to D-Tilt, but at a better angle that will allow LK follow ups at higher percents. It's currently beyond me, so I don't know how useful or safe it actually is on a character like Pichu, but it might help OoS against characters that duck under most of our options.

-This is also theory, but he doesn't have a hitbox on his Up-B and has to recover in specific ways with it. You might be able to plant a multi-hit like Nair or Nayru in its path.

-It might be best to ban FD for this MU. Not having platforms for him to zip through might seem like a good idea, but that also applies to you and you won't be able to escape his ridiculous combos as well without them. Platforms can also be a bit of a double edged sword and hamper his ability to land, allowing you to juggle easier.

Falco

-Use Phantom to edgeguard his Side-B. It's risky going out to edgeguard and will likely lead to you getting spike.

-You can use the delay on Phantom's final charge to bait reflectors and punish them with Up-B or Dair. Can be helpful if they're camping. Falco will probably annoying with his lasers after a while of doing this, so either do an aerial charge or learn the Phantom displacement tech, as this is one of the few instances it will be useful in IMO.

-Be patient in this MU. Falco isn't easy to kill, but doesn't have easy kill options either. Zelda has the advantage in a war of attrition due to her kill throws, so err on the side of caution and don't give him any openings.

These aren't easy MUs at all, so don't feel too bad. Falco seems like you just have to outplay him in neutral, I don't even know what to do with Pichu, I just hang on for dear life and hope I land a grab or LK and Ness is, well Ness and has never not been annoying.

Also why is Falco's F-Air literally the single most annoying thing in the matchup.
I think it's because there is an extra hitbox duration at the end of the animation, somewhat similar to Incineroar's Side-B, it makes it a little confusing to punish/avoid.


I guess I should contribute as well, given I've been doing nothing but chatting and procrastinating lately.

Snake
Not much to say on this one. A character that wins by spamming dash attack and blowing himself up still remains the most noobish thing ever. Getting past the projectiles isn't the issue, finding a way to exert pressure with Snake blowing himself up is. It almost feels like you have to trade in order to hit him at some points.

Pokemon Trainer
This one is just a little bit laggy, normally I only upload ones with a pristine connection, but I made an exception in case Lacrimosa Lacrimosa was interested. Lag Charizard carried this guy a bit, but overall he was really good. He managed to stay out of the air, so no Up-air juggles and I had to fight him up close to avoid being walled out.

And excuse the dropped combos, inputs, punishes, and random pauses, my regular controller is busted and I'm still getting used to the Joycons. This set wasn't as clean as I would have liked, due to that.
 

paulzerrss

Smash Rookie
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Apr 10, 2019
Messages
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Hi y’all! First time posting in this Zelda group <3 First of all I think we’re all ****ing awesome for maining the best character in the world and I love every single one of you already. Posting some of my tournament vids down here just to showcase how I play my Zelda. I like to consider myself an aggressive Zelda (or at least more aggressive than the norm) and so far it’s been doing me justice the past several tournaments I’ve been to. I’m super open to critiques/comments so feel free to call me out on anything (but nicely)!'

Vs palu. I respect and like this guy a lot! Super chill and awesome palu. I’ve always thought Palu was one of Zelda’s harder matchups so I’m just happy because I feel like I’ve been getting a very solid hold of the matchup as of late.

Vs. pokemon trainer. I’m really proud of how I did this match just because the guy I played is PR’ed in my region. I felt like I held my ground decently even though I ultimately lost.

Vs. Wolf. Super awesome wolf! Highkey I just posted this because I liked the super cheeky spike I did the first game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edW8kAfrxPU&t=3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edW8kAfrxPU&t=3s
Vs cpt falcon. Really nice cpt falcon! I like this one just because it shows that Zelda can handle people being all up in your face as long as you space things out/ bait things out well. And plus I like the way I used her projectiles/specials in this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX-SZ8irNwY&t=451s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX-SZ8irNwY&t=451s
[/SPOILER]
Vs. pichu. Best of 5. Super clean pichu! I choked and got reverse 3-0’ed L After this game I’ve been trying to dabble with mixing up my neutral a bit cuz I realized that I got very predictable at the end of the set. So if y’all can call out any patterns or whatever that you notice please please please tell me!
 
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StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
437
Hi y’all! First time posting in this Zelda group <3 First of all I think we’re all ****ing awesome for maining the best character in the world and I love every single one of you already. Posting some of my tournament vids down here just to showcase how I play my Zelda. I like to consider myself an aggressive Zelda (or at least more aggressive than the norm) and so far it’s been doing me justice the past several tournaments I’ve been to. I’m super open to critiques/comments so feel free to call me out on anything (but nicely)!'
Hey, welcome to the Zelda board. It's good to see more people playing her in tournaments, she definitely needs more representation. I think you do well with her, you look comfortable playing her for the most part. That said, there's always room for improvement and since you invited, I'll mention those(but nicely:)).

There's a lot to cover and as such this post is a little long, so bear with me.

Palutena

One big issue that really stood out to me, is that you have a tendency to take to the air. It's a natural instinct for fighting game players, skilled and new, to go to the air when neutral or approach is uncertain. It is however, only an illusion of safety, especially for Zelda. Being above your opponent is the worst place to be and jumping like that will get you juggled hard. Empty short hops are fine fast falled, but DJs and full hops will telegraph what you are doing. That Palutena was playing a little too passive and missed a lot of opportunities to punish and Palutena can punish Zelda hard. Palutena's not great on the ground, so stay there and force her into the air, with Phantom or baits.

Another issue was using Phantom offstage above the ledge, too close to the ledge. Especially against Palutena, but a lot of characters have quick enough Fairs to interrupt your charge and possibly take a stock. You should fast fall or DI away from the stage in that scenario. All Zeldas, even Ven, does this, so I'm not going to fault you for it too much, we just need to remember not to do this.

You kind of had a bit of a snafu at 5:45. I can't tell if your jumps were taken or if you panicked, but there were plenty of options to avoid that and you would have lost a stock, if that Palutena had done a more optimal punish like Fsmash or Dair on your Up-B attempts. Zelda is difficult to edgeguard and has a really good recovery, so you can afford to hang around offstage and plan your recovery.

Overall, I think you handled things quite well and anything else would just be minor nitpicks on likely misinputs or similar. I did like that Up-B KO in the second match and the combo that took the last stock of the first. The Up-B is good for highlight reels, but the other is pretty underrated. You fast falled Up-air to discourage any platform jumps then D-Tilted, which can avoid any aerials, into Fair, which then comboed into a surprise Din's Fire. This is a good example of using Zelda's moves together, she doesn't have any overly broken one she can spam, so needs to use all of her tools to win.

Squirtle

One move I've noticed that's really absent from your play, is Up-Tilt. It's a good tool to use and it will be pretty helpful at catching fast aerials. Nair is good, but not easy to hit small characters with and overusing it will make you predictable. Get used to timing Up-Tilt and you will have an easier time against small characters.

Nayru's Love is another somewhat underused move. It's not good to spam it, as it can be baited, but I think you need to use it as a combo breaker more. You're going to be taking a lot of damage regardless, so try doing it when he commits to a dash or jump. You need to get a feel for when you should use it and when it can be baited.

Don't do so many commits like Fsmash in this one. Squirtle's fast, but doesn't have disjoints like his fellow small Pokemon, so needs to play a more punish and bait oriented game. Side-B is a good punish tool and a decent approach tool, given it's super armor, so you need to play a more defensive and safe neutral. Don't give him even small openings and just focus on spacing safe disjoints.

Other than the above, you handled it pretty well and I think that player learned after a while, that random Fairs can kill Squirtle early. It was also smart of you to hold off on Up-B recoveries until Water Gun couldn't hit you anymore. We definitely don't want embarrassing gimps.

Ivysaur

I think you need to play a little more defensive in this MU and force him to approach. His optimal spacing range, is the same as Zelda's and his aerials are better. I went into detail how I feel the Ivy MU should be played in the MU thread, but I don't think he's particularly good at approaching. Once you manage to hit, you can switch to offense and then stick as close to him as is safely possible.

If you want to punish Razor Leaf with Phantom, you are either going to need to be close enough so that the early charges hit or far enough you can get the shield versions out(I think the shield should slow it down, don't quote me though). You kind of found yourself in the middle, which is why it wasn't working. You can also punish with Up-B, if he is being particularly spammy. Don't spam it obviously, but it can surprise and discourage him from doing it again.

I think both this and the Squirtle MU, showed why it isn't a good idea to be in the air. You took quite a lot of percent by those juggles, so stay out of the air as much as possible. The current meme is spamming aerials, but Zelda has always been primarily a ground based character. Avoid getting too high in the air, unless you are trying to juggle.

Try and have a fully charged Phantom covering your recovery, Ivy's Dair is nasty.

Again, you did fairly well, you just took too much percent. You need to use Up-B when he is committing to a juggle, Ivy's usually too slow to punish, this should help you get back to the ground without taking too much.

Charizard

You did really well, despite IMO this being the most difficult MU for Zelda of the three. There isn't really going to be much I can add.

Don't use either Phantom or Din's Fire, if he is in any position to Flare Blitz punish. Both moves are too slow in most cases and its hitbox is big enough to hit Zelda through Phantom, if it is close to her. Either wait and punish if he is foolish enough to use it or just accept that you aren't going to be able to do anything about it this time. Alternatively, if you are close enough, Fair can punish the startup and bust through the super armor.

Wolf

Not much to say here, you kind of just have to outplay him in neutral, which you did really well. Up-Tilt can catch his aerials pretty well. That was a cool spike, so props for that.

Falcon

Not much to say here either, you handled it well and played about how you need to.

Up-Tilt and Nair are good for catching his aerial stuff. One thing I would really like to see, is you using Up-B OoS more. I know it seems like a pretty high committal, but relatively not much more than Fair/Bair. Frame 6, means you can catch a lot of poorly spaced and laggy aerials or moves in general. It should help with trying to KO Falcon who can be a little difficult to do sometimes.

Pichu

I think you handled neutral quite well, your Phantom spacing in the first couple of matches was impeccable and those were my favorite matches to watch out of them all.

I think the turnaround was when you missed some crucial techs that allowed him to jab lock you into an Fsmash, which ultimately cost you the match. That seemed to fluster you into abandoning that spacing and you starting playing very frantic and jumpy, which allowed to him camp you and bide his time until you gave an opening.

I think rather than neutral, you need to work on disadvantage vs. Pichu. There isn't much Zelda can do about neutral, other than what you were doing in the first couple of matches. He's that perfect combination of speed, small profile, and disjoint that can go under or through our own disjoints. I think the best way to go about this, is to not do anything that will let him KO you. Zelda can win through a war of attrition, given her better KO options and the presence of kill throws.

So make you sure you don't do anything risky and always select the defensive options that has the least chance of leading into a kill move of his. It's better to keep taking percent, than it is to panic into a kill move. Dsmash, Fsmash, F-Tilt, Up-B are all his good KO options on stage. So any defensive options you take, need to not lead into one of those.

I think that's the biggest problem a lot of people have, is getting flustered from the pressure and panicking into a bad option. Even if it means taking another Fair/Bair or whatever other combo move, it's better than air-dodging/rolling into an Fsmash or Dsmash. That's mainly what Pichu is looking for, is a panic option.

He's also looking for a getup option at the ledge. You lost a lot of stocks by an F-Tilt at the ledge. If need be, drop a little back off the ledge then land with an aerial or tomahawk grab or regrab then roll or jump from there as mixups. You need to be tricky in general with getting back on stage with Zelda, but especially against Pichu.

I really think you could have had it, if you got those techs. I think as you said you just choked at the end. It was more of a problem with your mental state than your strategy at the time.

Overall, I really liked your play. You have a solid neutral, which is rare with Zelda players, you label yourself as "aggressive" but you don't overextend and usually know when to back off. I feel like your advantage is a little lacking at times, but am unsure as to why or what can be done to fix it. Not bad, just could get more off of each neutral win. Your disadvantage is decent for the most part, just need to be a little more tricky at times.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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This is very recent stuff. I got 4th at a tournament on Friday, so I was pretty hyped about that. All my matches were also against competent players, three of whom are Top 5 (two of them contest for best in Argentina at the moment). So none of them were free, and I feel glad.

I feel like I owe at least one of you some input, so that'll also have it's chance.


It's a decent bit of progress, for me to make it this far in bracket. Last time I got Top 5 (5th, to be exact) was about 1 1/2 to even 2 months ago. Unlike last time, I do enjoy the way I played. There's a few errors here and there, but it's nothing I can't correct by the next round.

There's also one more set down the line, which is WR3.
 
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StoicPhantom

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Messages
437
It's a decent bit of progress, for me to make it this far in bracket. Last time I got Top 5 (5th, to be exact) was about 1 1/2 to even 2 months ago. Unlike last time, I do enjoy the way I played. There's a few errors here and there, but it's nothing I can't correct by the next round.
Indeed, GJ. You were definitely looking more solid. I actually don't have too much to say because of that.

Dark Pit

There isn't much to say, you handled this really well. The only thing, and what ultimately did you in, was getting trapped at the ledge. Try using the early charges of Phantom to knock him back and give you some space. Pit's aerials cover a lot of space and make it very difficult for Zelda to get out of those traps, so use Phantom's disjoints and strong knockback to push him away. He generally can't react fast enough to reflect, at that close of range, so you should be in the clear.

Bowser

This would be a good MU to try Phantom in neutral. Bowser doesn't really have any good answer to it and his huge size means you can sweet-spot him very easily, making Phantom a pretty deadly setup. Despite his increased speed, he still wants to have his opponent approach and play a punish game. If you can force him to approach or at least intimidate him with Phantom while you approach, you should have this pretty easy. Any time he's camping the platforms or just waiting for you to approach, try fully charging it and see what happens.

Joker(s)

I don't think there's a fundamental problem with your approach to this MU, I think you just need some tweaks to what you already have. This MU is going to be very movement focused, so you need to add a little more nuance to your movement. Unlike most sword characters, Joker's aerials are both really fast and cover a lot of area. This makes it really difficult for close range fighters like Zelda to get in. His Dair in particular, pretty much invalidates all of Zelda's close range neutral options.

Phantom will help in neutral, it will just need better spacing and timing, since he can punish it better than Bowser. It can be used to bait counters, which will guarantee you free neutral wins. Aside from that, it will make him a little less campy and more aggressive, which you can then use the frame advantage from whiffed moves to your benefit. An extra frame or two, will make a lot of difference in neutral.

You also need to be less aggressive and more conservative about big moves like LK, when he has Arsene. His base attributes don't change much, but his knockback and hitboxs increase significantly. He only needs one hit to do big damage and possibly take a stock. Play a more cautious neutral and time out his meter, while occasionally chipping at him when you can. Take advantage of his increased aggressiveness and try moving just a little out of his attack range and punish his attempts. And stay out of the air as much as possible and never recover high. Those aerials are incredibly potent kill options and aren't things Zelda can contest or avoid with DI.

Try staying near the ledge and using Nayru to punish his tether. Even if he tries to hang and wait, you can just simply allow yourself to naturally fall and you will automatically cover his recovery, because his tether can only move up. He has no other option once that happens, so just plant yourself there and it's GGs. Like other tethers, he needs a specific angle and height in order to successfully tether the ledge, so repeated edgeguards will finish him, similar to what Lucina does.

Overall, you did well from what I could see. Your losses were close enough, minor tweaks would have put you in top 3 for sure and possibly first. Using Phantom more improved things, but you also just seem to have a little more of an idea of neutral. I think working on incorporating Phantom more in neutral and being a little more flexible and do more mixups will be beneficial. You do still kind of "impose your will" a little too much at times after all, but you are getting better in that regard.

---

I guess it's now time to contribute some of my own. I'll be doing something different than my usual showing off and be the one offering to be critiqued this time. @Oz and I talked about doing this, but anyone with answers is of course welcome to offer their own ideas and opinions to this, if they want.

I've been struggling with certain types of characters since Smash 4. I'm generally not one to be bothered by character type, but these characters have this specific combination of traits, that I have great difficulty with. Mario in particular, has been my bane since 4 and I just can't seem to do consistently well. Not just Mario, but all characters like him, who have lagless moves, high mobility and jumps, good air-dodges and rolls, are sometimes on the small side, safe KO options, and are rather heavy. I just either can't be consistent in these MUs or I just constantly get edged out. I'll give some example ones below, but I have issues with that particular combination, not just a specific MU.

Falcon
This is a good example of something that happens to me quite frequently. The vast majority of my losses are last hit last stock types, were I just barely get edged out. This happens so consistently, that I feel it's a problem with me, not that my opponent played better. Quite often I'll build a decent lead, only to lose it trying to take the last stock. Struggling to take the last stock is a huge issue of mine.

Yoshi
This is one of maybe two MUs that I consistently lose(the other being Greninja). Characters that all but nullify Phantom are characters I have a lot of difficulty keeping any real zone. Yoshi just seems to have no concept of risk or space and is that character that you can't hit, but can hit you from literally anywhere.

Mario
I don't have any good ones of Mario unfortunately, so I just put together a couple of old ones from different opponents. I played like ass in the second one that day anyway, so take that one with a grain of salt. This was my most difficult MU in 4 and is one I still struggle with in Ultimate.

Hopefully the quality isn't too rough, I used Ultimate's new video editor to make these and I'm not sure they did the most optimal quality options. Anyways, as you can see, I struggle with trying to read all of the options these characters types have. It's not speed or frame data specifically, but more so mobility and defensive options.

Maybe I'm just a total scrub, but I have lots of difficulty dealing with air-dodges and rolls. Specifically the long and safe ones, like Mario, Lucina, and Falcon have. When you combine those with speed and frame data or special tools like Yoshi's eggs, then I just feel like I'm one step behind all the time. This allows my opponent to just chip away at me, until they can land one of their safe KO options.

You could say this is a fundamental problem with Zelda, but I have issues with this playing many different characters and even other smash games(well Smash 4). So I'm inclined to think it's a me issue, but I'm not really sure what. I don't think my approach to these characters is fundamentally wrong, but clearly some teaks are needed, because this happens quite frequently. So wither I'm missing something obvious or I'm physically unable to react fast enough.
 

daddypeach

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
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This is a good example of something that happens to me quite frequently. The vast majority of my losses are last hit last stock types, were I just barely get edged out. This happens so consistently, that I feel it's a problem with me, not that my opponent played better. Quite often I'll build a decent lead, only to lose it trying to take the last stock. Struggling to take the last stock is a huge issue of mine.
This might be too old for you to care, but here's an analysis for you:

Just watching your Falcon match... In your first set, it looked like you died by overextending/being baited. He tried to pull the same trick on you the second stock, but you didn't get caught trying to dash punish again (which is good) - you weakly punished with phantom when you could have gotten an fsmash or cross-up bair. I think he read you right that you don't punish as strongly as you could which allowed him to test you in a bunch of different scenarios. By the last stock, he was playing much safer and it gave you a hard time because he had more data on you than you had on him.

The second way he got you was by calling you out for being reckless off stage. Notice how you died the same way in stock one in both your sets and the same way in stock two in both your sets: Stock 1 - Overextending to punish something that was actually safe. Stock 2 - Being reckless off stage. Stock 3, you died by doing something punishable. First set it was for doing something he was always looking for (rolling toward at the ledge). Second set it was for using a move that's unsafe on shield AND from a disadvantaged state. I think he read that you were getting a little bit desperate by that point that as long as he could get close enough to bait you, you would do something punishable - kind of beating you at your own game.

I think you just got outplayed. It's nothing wrong with you.

Matchup-wise, I would be safer off-stage against Falcon. It looks like he can put up a lot of pressure off-stage, so Zelda is not as free to create a set-up from disadvantage as you might like. His aerial mobility is way better than Zelda's so short of using your double jump to punish an overextension, I would try to just beat him back to the stage and set up as much ledge pressure as possible.

Zelda's ledge pressure is better than Falcon's. She at least gets some frame-trap pressure from phantom. You could probably bait out ledge options against him better than he can against you.

Anyway, I know it's old but it helped me to analyze your match too. Hopefully, that was helpful. Ledge pressure is the next thing to work on on my list right now.

I am loving this Zelda... Check out that ledge recovery with phantom in the Lucina vid @ 2:45 [stealing it] ^_^



A ledge trump everyone can enjoy at 1:40 -
 
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StoicPhantom

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Messages
437
This might be too old for you to care, but here's an analysis for you
It is pretty old lol, but I appreciate your advice all the same. I think overall you're pretty spot on. I definitely had issues with fishing for the kill or letting myself get baited. Falcon's movement has long confused me, so I could fall for things I really shouldn't be falling for.

It's not the best quality, because the guy was a little laggy, and I'm still getting used to my new pro controller, but it's all I have at the moment. Here's a more recent Falcon match, if you're interested:

I am loving this Zelda... Check out that ledge recovery with phantom in the Lucina vid @ 2:45 [stealing it] ^_^
Good finds, I've been waiting to see this particular Zelda player again, but forgot to keep track. He made some silly mistakes that ultimately cost him the match, but it was still a pretty good showing against characters that aren't easy for Zelda to fight. I noticed that Phantom displacement on the platform, during the Lucina one. I wonder if that was intentional or not? I've been wanting to see one from a high level player for a while, but he only did it once, so it might have been an accident.

Having Phantom cover your recovery is good, just be careful, because an aware opponent can go out and quickly Fair the startup. Don't do it too often, unless your opponent lets you.

A ledge trump everyone can enjoy at 1:40 -
That was pretty cool.
 

#HBC | Scary

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Hey gorls. I got to enter something this past weekend and was able to get a lot of footage. If you want, please be super critical, especially with the Seibrik matches because like most of you, I hate that green haired *****! Help give an old man tips!

https://youtu.be/sx5LL46O_M4 vs Seibrik :ultpalutena: LSF
https://youtu.be/5RLbrN_s80s vs Master Raven :ultjoker: LQF
https://youtu.be/v4T1jCcbD-w vs Gore :ultness: Top 8
https://youtu.be/eLyHA6P3gKA vs Seibrik :ultpalutena: WQF
https://youtu.be/rXY2_U8ejrg vs Yung Zootie :ultrob: Winners 8ths
https://youtu.be/KXqoMvsjgc4 vs CPU :ultwiifittrainer: Drinking Semis
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
437
Hey gorls. I got to enter something this past weekend and was able to get a lot of footage. If you want, please be super critical, especially with the Seibrik matches because like most of you, I hate that green haired *****! Help give an old man tips!
Oh, a wild Purple Guy appeared.

Good stuff here. I really like how consistent you are with LK spacing and landing the sweet-spot. Possibly the most consistent I've seen out of all the Zeldas. Similarly with throw combos.

I don't think there is anything with your fundamentals, just a lot of little things that added up. There was especially a lot of Smash 4 Zelda in a game that isn't Smash 4.

One major absence I noticed, was Phantom ledge traps. There's really no reason not to go for them, if any edgeguarding opportunities have passed. You're pretty much guaranteed a 50-50 in most cases, provided proper spacing, and there isn't much else you can easily do. Now Palutena specifically can jump or drop off and use her reflector, but Phantom's detachment allows you to have more options in getting around Phantom and punishing reflector commits. For example, if Palutena tries to drop off and reflect, you can jump over Phantom and then spike the ledge regrab. Similarly if she tries to jump and reflect, you can shield dash Phantom and then pressure her landing, force her back offstage, or even punish the endlag, depending on the situation.

Another reoccurring theme, was Seibrik opting to simply stop and let you try to approach him. Zelda is still fundamentally the same in most respects as previous iterations, so she cannot really approach. In those cases, it would be best to not take the bait, as even if he is stopping right next to you, Palutena is able to still stuff approaches. I know it's easy to fall into a start -> defend, stop -> attack mindset, but it would be good to try to curb that, as Zelda relies heavily on her opponent approaching her.

To that end, try using Phantom more to get around those issues. Yes Palutena does have a reflector, but the great thing about the new Phantom redesign, is that you can use the full charge(detachment) and the partial charges to mix things up. You can either let it fully charge, which will cover your approach or you can release it early on reaction, if your opponent tries to approach. You can also just release it early at those close/mid range situations and either hit your opponent or force them to shield/have the Phantom's body shield you(e.g., the situation at 2:49 and similar). Obviously it won't be that clean all the time in practice, but it will still be more optimal in most cases, than trying to approach with dash attack or Nair.

So in other words, try to use the Phantom detachment to cover your approaches, instead of trying to approach with solo Zelda. You can use your opponents unwillingness to approach to further this goal. Eventually, they will start to keep close to you to prevent that, which is usually want you want in the first place.

Also, check out the Phantom displacement tech. It's not a universally useful tech, but it is very helpful in specific MUs and situations, like the Palutena one. Particularly RAR Phantom, which plops Zelda behind Phantom as it's charging, making her more safe from interruptions. This set from GOML, has some instances of it and how it can be applied, as well as lots of examples of how you can use Phantom to cover Zelda's commits. Raykushi really got into Gen's head and destroyed his spacing.

The commentators have alluded that you might be aware of this, but you sometimes don't manage your stage control as optimally as you can. Stage control is especially important in the Joker MU, since the less space you allow him to flit about, the better. 4:59 to 5:03 had you do a good example of utilizing Phantom to cover his landing, while you spaced with Zelda to make sure he couldn't safely hop over Phantom, resulting in him attempting to DI back, straight into Phantom's sword. This is a good example of what Zelda and Phantom working in tandem can do and what you should be looking at optimizing in the future.

The issue is what happened after, in which instead of moving up and taking center stage and possibly pressuring his landing, you instead opted to fall back and snipe with Din's Fire. Even if Din's Fire could reach that far, you are unlikely to hit someone as mobile as Joker. Din's Fire is better for forcing them to burn options and air-dodge and sniping bad recoveries. This allowed him to quickly land and regain center stage, thereby rendering the previous interaction mostly pointless.

I realize Zelda didn't have the the best (or any) options to manipulate space before, but Phantom allows her to have better options now, so it's important to hold onto space and stage control where you can. There's also another issue in this context, where you sometimes move too far ahead of Phantom's reach and then get intercepted, which leads to Phantom's destruction. It's important to make sure you try to stay within Phantom's reach when approaching, or you render getting the full charge meaningless. It might seem like you're missing an opportunity to pressure if you don't hurry to catch landings, but that's an illusion. No matter when Phantom strikes, they will still have to shield or otherwise move out of the way, which will give you an opportunity to punish or gain stage control.

That would have been especially useful in the final game, where he was attempting to force you to approach by empty short hopping. This is where Phantom spacing becomes very important, as highly mobile characters like Joker can easily outmaneuver Zelda's approaches. When they are empty short hopping at mid range like that, is when you can use Phantom to interrupt. If they try to hop back out of Phantom's range, then you need to let it fully charge and then use the swing to cover your approach and gain stage control. They'll run out of space eventually and will be forced to attack you to gain more.

The important thing is to treat Zelda and Phantom as a single character and try to use them in tandem with one another as much as possible. Phantom has a lot of use in covering Zelda's fundamental weaknesses, so it is important to get familiar with it, in every possible respect.





For the rest of the sets, the above will still apply and I'd probably just be nitpicking otherwise. The only other thing I want to mention is your disadvantage. You lose a lot of stocks trying to get back on to the stage. Zelda's poor disadvantage is a fundamentally bad one, so there isn't too much you can do, but one thing that should be avoided is losing stocks. If you watch top Zelda players like Ven, he doesn't lose many stocks when he's trying to get back to the stage. I'm not particularly great with this myself and don't have a formula for you, but if you study Ven's stuff, you notice he's very adept at mitigating disadvantage.

I'll just say that you don't need to act immediately or be aggressive every time. Sometimes just ledge jumping, but hanging in the air can open up a fair amount of options. Nayru's Love has intangibility on frame 4, so you can use it on reaction to stuff chases. Yes it can be baited, but once an opponent commits to an action like a jump, it's not easy for them to quickly reverse course. In addition to that, Phantom can also be good for keeping opponents at bay and cover your landing. Be careful when charging it offstage, as your opponent may be able to quickly run off and interrupt it, but it is also the best way to ensure a safe landing. Try to put yourself in a position where you can release it on reaction, if they try to interrupt.

Don't worry about the damage too much, as most of it is unavoidable, instead make sure you don't get hit by KO options. Zelda can live for a long time with good DI, but can be killed early with strong KO options. Avoid the stronger ones and even if you keep getting knocked back into disadvantage, you'll eventually escape at some point.



As I said above, there isn't anything too off about your fundamentals, you just need to take advantage of Zelda's new options more. Lots of her moves have been tweaked to be more useful in various aspects than before and she can have a surprising amount of range and priority with them and they can punish more things than they would appear to be able to.
 

Oz o:

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Hey, I'm back.


S StoicPhantom , take it's more organised to just post my stuff here. It does help we keep this thing alive.
Just wanted to show a friendly "best case scenario" for me, of the way I could be playing right now. I hardly ever actually play this fluid, but it's definitely something I want to try and do in tournament (where it matters).

~?~ ~?~ You once wanted to see a play of my Zelda, so here it is.
 
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Oz o:

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Booyah, Zelda montage!

It still strikes me a bit awkward, and almost silly, the way you have like this side compilation on the side of other characters. I was going to go like, "where's the ****ing Zelda montash. :D". But then the real thing does start, and it's actually better than I would've expect, and especially with the display of the displacement tech you showed a couple of months back. It got me thinking, "wait, I can do this". Just never actively tried any aplications with it, let alone the way you do to cover lower recoveries like that (most of the time I just accidentally RAR Phantom offstage, facing the stage).

Anyway, as to my actual thoughts on the compilation itself; I think it's a pretty fair representation of Zelda's back of tricks. You know, a lot things having to do with Phantom, option coverage and good reads (that Zoom catch was pretty great). I'm personally not a fan of the way new compilations are made. There's too many "memes" and silly references apparently everyone is supposed to know... but that's just my opinion, and apparently they have good reception. I just think they're overused because it's what everyone expects at this point. As mentioned, the actual compilation changed my mind, solid music to go with it.
 
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It still strikes me a bit awkward, and almost silly, the way you have like this side compilation on the side of other characters.
Salad typically has a serious montage and a lighthearted one. Most of the time there is a 50/50 balance between the two, but this time I had a lot of Zelda to show off.

I'm personally not a fan of the way new compilations are made. There's too many "memes" and silly references apparently everyone is supposed to know...
I agree. To a certain extent they just become a mindless subversion of expectations. Humor is found through randomness (bass boosting, nonsensical memes) and not through genuine wit. When I am editing Salad, specifically the humorous side of it, I try to let create levity through the music and what is happening on screen rather than adding nonsense to appeal to the ironic.

For example, the Yoshi clip at the beginning is probably the most "memey" the video gets. However, it stays within the context. It uses a reference to Earthbound and a joke involving Yoshi's eggs to crack (ha) a joke whose punchline is accentuated with a ten year-old viral video.

My inspirations for the Salad series are Heeew, SovietWomble, and the editing technique Micky Mousing. The editing is meant to compliment what is being shown instead of transforming it.

the displacement tech you showed a couple of months back.
Speaking of which, here is the link to the Phantom Phasing thread. It's the NEW new tech that I wanted to show off. Frame 67 baby!
https://smashboards.com/threads/phantom-phasing-new-tech-at-2-25.489566/
 
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Oz o:

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Salad typically has a serious montage and a lighthearted one. Most of the time there is a 50/50 balance between the two, but this time I had a lot of Zelda to show off.


I agree. To a certain extent they just become a mindless subversion of expectations. Humor is found through randomness (bass boosting, nonsensical memes) and not through genuine wit. When I am editing Salad, specifically the humorous side of it, I try to let create levity through the music and what is happening on screen rather than adding nonsense to appeal to the ironic.

For example, the Yoshi clip at the beginning is probably the most "memey" the video gets. However, it stays within the context. It uses a reference to Earthbound and a joke involving Yoshi's eggs to crack (ha) a joke whose punchline is accentuated with a ten year-old viral video.

My inspirations for the Salad series are Heeew, SovietWomble, and the editing technique Micky Mousing. The editing is meant to compliment what is being shown instead of transforming it.


Speaking of which, here is the link to the Phantom Phasing thread. It's the NEW new tech that I wanted to show off. Frame 67 baby!
https://smashboards.com/threads/phantom-phasing-new-tech-at-2-25.489566/
I'm just a stupid Banjo main. :D
 

StoicPhantom

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oh yeah, I forgot. My turn:

S StoicPhantom you might like this
I did yeah, lots of cool stuff. I think the mark of a good highlight video is when it's difficult to chose a favorite. And your editing is good enough to make me want to do one, but I know I'm too lazy to do so. Maybe when winter starts getting into full swing and I'm not sick and tired from the heat all the time. Although, I have to rebuild my library of cool things anyways, because Ultimate decided to update without my permission and the patch wiped everything out.

Instead, I'll just drop a couple of replays from when my friend stopped by weeks ago for some actual offline Zelda play in months:


Sloppier than I would have liked to show, but overall not bad for being a bit rusty at the time. I know I always say how bad the online is, but I still somehow managed to be surprised at how different it is. I could actually do stuff. Like a lot of weights and handicaps had been lifted off of me. I thought I was terrible at doing a lot of things, but I guess it was online after all. I played Smash 4 again not too long ago and there wasn't near this much difference between online and offline. It's a wonder how I managed to be decent at this game at all.

Also, when you edgeguarded Isabelle with Nayru in your video, was that all three balloons?
 

Oz o:

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I did yeah, lots of cool stuff. I think the mark of a good highlight video is when it's difficult to chose a favorite. And your editing is good enough to make me want to do one, but I know I'm too lazy to do so. Maybe when winter starts getting into full swing and I'm not sick and tired from the heat all the time. Although, I have to rebuild my library of cool things anyways, because Ultimate decided to update without my permission and the patch wiped everything out.

Instead, I'll just drop a couple of replays from when my friend stopped by weeks ago for some actual offline Zelda play in months:


Sloppier than I would have liked to show, but overall not bad for being a bit rusty at the time. I know I always say how bad the online is, but I still somehow managed to be surprised at how different it is. I could actually do stuff. Like a lot of weights and handicaps had been lifted off of me. I thought I was terrible at doing a lot of things, but I guess it was online after all. I played Smash 4 again not too long ago and there wasn't near this much difference between online and offline. It's a wonder how I managed to be decent at this game at all.
I honestly wouldn't say it's that bad. You're not a little hummingbird like me (in a good way), but you're also not a sluggish and overly passive Zelda player. I feel a lot of other Zelda players are too passive, and let their opponent get on their too quickly, and take hard punishes for it. That said, I don't think I've noticed a single one bad habit (like bad rolls, jumps and spotdodges). You were looking decent.

I'm the last person you'd hear this from, but it seems you weren't using enough Phantom. Looks like somebody took notes from me and not the good ones. Is it because you say you'd like more space to set it up? This is were RAR Phantom comes in handy. You can use it while running away, and it's pretty fluid, and doesn't necessarily kill your momentum.

If I could mention one thing I'd help you correct, is that I feel your combos and strings could be better optimized. Double U-Tilt isn't bad (I actually liked a few of those), but a lot of times it neither combos into itself, and it's not like it's safe on shield either. I personally go for something like U-Tiltx2 and then jump into the air for a Nair, though I can also understand you'd pick the safer option (since it doesn't always combo this early). Someting like U-Tiltx1-2 > Nair > Kick is surprisingly consistent, albeit subject to character. Lastly, since I did mention shield safety, I think you could use more Jab1 cancels on shield, D-Tilt, and even Jab > D-Tilt. It's not perfectly safe on shield, but it's one of our better pokes, and it's mostly safe if you space it properly. Your dash grabs generally worked, so I can't say much about them.

It's pretty good to hear you finally get to play with real people. Try to see if you can make the most out of it.

Other stuff:

- Those Kicks were really nice finishers.
- You seem to get a lot of those Teleports, like in 4:58. It's a surpisingly good kill option.
- I was actually saving this until I could upload my combo video (which I did), but this will be massive for you. We can mixup the opponent by D-Throwing them, and when they land on a platform, we can D-Air > Up-B. This is extremely good, and you can either get 50 off the bat, or an extremely early kill. Dair has a duration that allows you to catch stuff like the mis tech, and stuff like that. You have to be fast, but it seems fairly consistent. You can honestly set it up with any move that launches upwards. I've even done it with U-Tilt and U-Throw. You can even reset the lock with Nair, or something.

That last bit really expands Zelda's options. The opponent has to either choose to take a Kick, or a potential kill (or lots of damage). This is why I actively look for opponents to land on platforms.

Also, when you edgeguarded Isabelle with Nayru in your video, was that all three balloons?
Surprisingly, yes. Managed to get all of them without hitting her.[/QUOTE]
 
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StoicPhantom

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Oh an analysis from Oz. Much appreciated.

I'm the last person you'd hear this from, but it seems you weren't using enough Phantom. Looks like somebody took notes from me and not the good ones. Is it because you say you'd like more space to set it up? This is were RAR Phantom comes in handy. You can use it while running away, and it's pretty fluid, and doesn't necessarily kill your momentum.
I think I got Falcon Kicked one too many times, which I think goes through Phantom. Kinda just started to brute force through his stuff with Zelda's disjoints, which I guess beats all of his moves. Probably could have used more Phantom yeah, I just forget to in the Falcon MU for some reason. Weird coming from the guy who usually champions it, but yeah.

If I could mention one thing I'd help you correct, is that I feel your combos and strings could be better optimized.
The Up-Tilt thing was part of why I called this video sloppy, since I was sluggish on those follow-ups. Part of it was being rusty from not having played much, but I'm also starting to hesitate after having a lot of people just air-dodge down through them and instantly punishing. I think I'm too cautious of a player for my own good sometimes and tend to hesitate if it isn't a guaranteed hit. I might need to learn to take more chances. I've been waiting to bait an option but that hasn't worked very well.

I do agree though, that this is a major issue. I feel like it's my weakest aspect, when compared to other Zeldas. I have to win neutral too many times and I don't get the damage I could be getting. I hate repetitive things like daily rote practice, so I tend to slack on it more than I should. It's been clearly holding me back though, so I just got to buckle down and do it. I'm just a little lost on what would be the most optimal to practice as far as strings and moves go.

I more or less have the Phantom displacement stuff down and I'm working on getting D-Tilt -> Fair back up to par, but I'll try the jab cancels too. When you practice inputs, do you practice the individual moves then string them into combos in an actual match or do you practice strings as well? And if you do practice strings, what do you find are the most practical ones in an actual match? Since I hate input practice so much, I want to try to optimize it to the essentials so that I don't have to spend too much time doing it.

It's pretty good to hear you finally get to play with real people. Try to see if you can make the most out of it.
It was pretty good while it lasted. Even going on the incredibly laggy and highly degenerate no team attack co-op doubles is a blast. He's not quite on my level, largely due to not having many good opponents to train with where he now lives, but he's pretty smart and good at adapting, so is still helpful for my own practice. Most of all, it made me realize that I like playing the game and online is making me hate it. It's not about winning or losing, just playing in lag gets me really tilted for some reason. I can't play in it for much more than like 45 minutes before I lose all sense of focus and it becomes pointless to play. I have fun win or lose or even lose a stock to an SD/jank offline. It's been making me think I should put down the game until I can play with my friend again. I just don't seem to like playing online period.

- You seem to get a lot of those Teleports, like in 4:58. It's a surpisingly good kill option.
Yeah, it's pretty good. I find that if they try to chase you in the air and you evade them, you can use it to catch their landing or air-dodge. They might start catching on and timing their air-dodges better, but if you do it right, you should at least come out with a neutral reset. Although some situations might be unavoidable, like if you do it offstage where you can free fall to the ledge, like at 1:56 and especially 3:40 where they have to jump. There's a lot of potential to be sneaky with this move, it's just difficult to suss out when you are relatively safe with it, given the varying reaction times and MU experience of opponents.

- I was actually saving this until I could upload my combo video (which I did), but this will be massive for you. We can mixup the opponent by D-Throwing them, and when they land on a platform, we can D-Air > Up-B. This is extremely good, and you can either get 50 off the bat, or an extremely early kill. Dair has a duration that allows you to catch stuff like the mis tech, and stuff like that. You have to be fast, but it seems fairly consistent. You can honestly set it up with any move that launches upwards. I've even done it with U-Tilt and U-Throw. You can even reset the lock with Nair, or something.
Thanks for this. I feel like my throw follow-ups aren't particularly good and lots of people don't put themselves in kick range anymore it seems, so I've been looking for alternatives. Haven't used Dair as much as you and others, so should start rectifying that too. I've done Nair resets before, but haven't been able to go further than that with good follow-ups like Up-B. Usually just panic Up-Tilt or something, so I'll just work on fixing that too.


I've lost patience with the online, so I think I'll dedicate some time to practice all of this. Might think about learning Soul Calibur like I mentioned before to keep my fundamentals up and just practice inputs in Smash while occasionally going online to keep in touch or play with my friend if/when he can afford internet. Or continue torturing myself with the online for reasons I don't quite understand. Regardless, thanks for the advice and compliments.
 

Oz o:

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I think I got Falcon Kicked one too many times, which I think goes through Phantom
[/quote]
Weren't you the one who mentioned the uses of the lower Phanton charges? You can let go at any moment, and this is useful for any matchup or situation. Worst case scenario, it's only 5-6% for the first phase.

Weird coming from the guy who usually champions it, but yeah.
I just think you'd use it better, since you're also a player that opts for safety and being able to stay comfterble and to react better by having the opponent at a comfterble range. I just think I never got fully used to even the RAR Phantom while running away, which is something I'd still have to fully experiment on. I sometimes forget I simply don't need to approach (i.e Wario Bair when you're at the ledge).

I more or less have the Phantom displacement stuff down and I'm working on getting D-Tilt -> Fair back up to par, but I'll try the jab cancels too. When you practice inputs, do you practice the individual moves then string them into combos in an actual match or do you practice strings as well? And if you do practice strings, what do you find are the most practical ones in an actual match? Since I hate input practice so much, I want to try to optimize it to the essentials so that I don't have to spend too much time doing it.
I don't think I really ever sit down and practice specific things, but it's partly because I've got most of them down, by this point. I sometimes miss D-Tilt > Fair when I'm sure it combos, but that's about the only combo I'd maybe have to stay up-to-par, on (or just fix my timing by mashing forward). Our strings are fairly intuitive, honestly. Low percent combos don't get much easier than what I mentioned, and it's usually any one of Nair or U-Tilts as starters and vice-versa.

I mostly go for either UTilt>Reverse Utilt> Nair > (potential Kick or Nair)/UTilt > Nair > etc. Most of my practice is just hanging out with my friend, which I do a couple of times during the week. So, it's hardly a surprise. I'll see if I can find some of my videos for better examples.

I've lost patience with the online, so I think I'll dedicate some time to practice all of this. Might think about learning Soul Calibur like I mentioned before to keep my fundamentals up and just practice inputs in Smash while occasionally going online to keep in touch or play with my friend if/when he can afford internet. Or continue torturing myself with the online for reasons I don't quite understand. Regardless, thanks for the advice and compliments.
I don't think you should give it up altogether... try what I've mentioned before: Using online for specific practice. Don't just try beating your opponent to gain GSP. Try to get something out of it. Anyone can win with bad habits and be on Elite (no offense to anyone). I've seen the most questionable players up there, and I'm sure you would know.

I've gotten a handful of crazy combos I've been labbing with Banjo. This is crazy stuff that I would've found to be too crazy, or too situation to work in a real match, and thereby never even have tried it before. But it turns out, after a couple of hours labbing throughout the week and using Quickplay people as my guinea pigs...I'm kind learning a thing or two. Finally.

I think that may as well be the secret for any practice, really. Try new things, and learn. Stop trying to beat your opponent all the time. Leave that for tournaments. And here's where you could practice the kind of things I'm telling you. Try and throw your potential ego, and even your GSP, out the window. This fine fellow you see here is still under 2m (with Banjo, anyway). : D


(yes I was somewhat of a real Joker once upon a time)

Oh an analysis from Oz. Much appreciated.
Yeah, it's probably a first...not to mention, how soon I just went for it. Definitely owed you one (at least).
Up for Round 2, anytime.
 
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StoicPhantom

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Weren't you the one who mentioned the uses of the lower Phanton charges? You can let go at any moment, and this is useful for any matchup or situation. Worst case scenario, it's only 5-6% for the first phase.
Even the late hit of Falcon Kick still does 11%, which can destroy the first two charges. Phantom is "disjointed" in the sense that it's not part of Zelda's hurtbox, but the first two charges aren't disjointed for Phantom, because they're part of its hurtbox. In order to beat Falcon Kick, you'd need to space with the sword, which isn't part of Phantom's hurtbox.

An aware Falcon can shutdown Phantom at mid range. Thus I kind of find it easier to just brute force with Zelda's disjoints, since they seem to beat every attack of his. You can beat most attacks with the early charges, but attacks with large and powerful hitboxs like Falcon Kick won't be beatable.

I don't think I really ever sit down and practice specific things, but it's partly because I've got most of them down, by this point. I sometimes miss D-Tilt > Fair when I'm sure it combos, but that's about the only combo I'd maybe have to stay up-to-par, on (or just fix my timing by mashing forward). Our strings are fairly intuitive, honestly. Low percent combos don't get much easier than what I mentioned, and it's usually any one of Nair or U-Tilts as starters and vice-versa.

I mostly go for either UTilt>Reverse Utilt> Nair > (potential Kick or Nair)/UTilt > Nair > etc. Most of my practice is just hanging out with my friend, which I do a couple of times during the week. So, it's hardly a surprise. I'll see if I can find some of my videos for better examples.
Gotcha. I just feel like I have a hard time extending strings and stuff outside of basic stuff lke Up-Tilt strings and stuff. I actually do the Nair > Kick after Up-Tilt and Nair follow-ups in general, they just weren't in the video. My friend is pretty good at DI, so it's hard to get follow-ups on him anyways. I actually had more hype matches and crazy things, but I forget to record them because I'm bad at life lol.

I don't think you should give it up altogether... try what I've mentioned before: Using online for specific practice. Don't just try beating your opponent to gain GSP. Try to get something out of it. Anyone can win with bad habits and be on Elite (no offense to anyone). I've seen the most questionable players up there, and I'm sure you would know.
As I said it isn't about winning or losing or GSP or whatever, but the fact that I'm playing an entirely different game each match, even with the same person at times.

For example, I parried a Mario spamming Fsmash on my Robin's shield and tried to Dsmash him since he was behind me. He quickly shielded and punished with an Fsmash. That encounter blew my mind to the point I had to record and study the replay. The reason why is Mario's Fsmash is -22 on shield. From what I understand parries add +14, bringing his frame advantage to a grand total of -36. Robin's Dsmash has a startup of 16 frames. So adding those together would bring my frame advantage to a total of +20 and his -20. So how on earth would he have been able to shield? Unless I'm missing something crucial that's more than enough. Even if we add the seven frames of input lag native to Ultimate and the two frames of input lag native to my monitor, that should still leave me with 11 frames of advantage when all is said and done. I've also heard that staled moves increase the negativity on shield, though I don't have the numbers, so there is potentially an even bigger gap.

So I can only surmise that I was playing at best, 11+ frames behind this guy. That's pretty much unplayable. Did I eventually two stock him? Yes, but I wasn't happy about it. Did I learn anything in that match? Not at all. That's kind of the issue here, is that even just focusing on trying new things out and things you normally wouldn't do in a "serious" match, it's still 11 frames of lag. Forget trying new strings or approaches, I have a difficult time just spiking bad recoveries and landing BnBs. How can I learn to counter mixups, if it's impossible to react to them in the first place? My opponents can literally just mash the entire match, because at 11 frames, almost everything is safe. I have to intercept their attacks with my own, which isn't always possible, or get hard reads all the time or rely on them making a huge mistake.

Using that match as a frame of reference, I'm generally looking at being 9-15 frames behind my opponent, most of the time. That's before adding in things like stutter and major lag spikes that make it even difficult to see what I'm doing, let alone try to do anything interesting. If I'm not constantly dropping inputs, I'm SDing or missing easy punishes.

And that's kind of the big issue I have. I've hit a wall in my improvement, because my online disallows any sort of nuance or higher play. If I had a local scene, things might be a different story, but as it is, I have to rely on online for everything from neutral to learning those new strings and stuff. And that's before getting into the mental and emotional aspect, where I haven't had fun in months and I'm constantly frustrated and don't want to play anymore. I start off ok, then the constant awful slowly eats away at my mental state and then all of a sudden I'm full on tilted and either have to put the game down or get banned for disconnecting or something. I'm playing off and on now, instead of daily like I used to.

My internet is fine. I'm wired into 100mb fiber, get a ping of around 25ms. The problem is I live in the middle of nowhere and have to be matched with either the local WiFi casuals, that I'm certain largely consist of children, or across state or even out of state. It's completely unplayable on weekends and at peak hours like the evenings. Because the delay based netcode gets worse the more distance you have to travel. It might be fine if I lived in a major city, but I don't. I live like a four hour drive from any major civilization. It also doesn't help that all the patches that were supposed to "improve" the match-making, has made it exponentially worse for me, going from a decent match half the time, to 1% of the time.


I'm not planning on quitting entirely, but I think I should move onto a different "main" game until my situation improves. The off and on seems to suffice for keeping my knowledge of the game up, so I want to use another fighting game to improve my fundamentals. I'll stick around and discuss and lab things, I just won't be playing 3-4 hours a day like I used to.
 

Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
178
Even the late hit of Falcon Kick still does 11%, which can destroy the first two charges. Phantom is "disjointed" in the sense that it's not part of Zelda's hurtbox, but the first two charges aren't disjointed for Phantom, because they're part of its hurtbox. In order to beat Falcon Kick, you'd need to space with the sword, which isn't part of Phantom's hurtbox.

An aware Falcon can shutdown Phantom at mid range. Thus I kind of find it easier to just brute force with Zelda's disjoints, since they seem to beat every attack of his. You can beat most attacks with the early charges, but attacks with large and powerful hitboxs like Falcon Kick won't be beatable.


Gotcha. I just feel like I have a hard time extending strings and stuff outside of basic stuff lke Up-Tilt strings and stuff. I actually do the Nair > Kick after Up-Tilt and Nair follow-ups in general, they just weren't in the video. My friend is pretty good at DI, so it's hard to get follow-ups on him anyways. I actually had more hype matches and crazy things, but I forget to record them because I'm bad at life lol.


As I said it isn't about winning or losing or GSP or whatever, but the fact that I'm playing an entirely different game each match, even with the same person at times.

For example, I parried a Mario spamming Fsmash on my Robin's shield and tried to Dsmash him since he was behind me. He quickly shielded and punished with an Fsmash. That encounter blew my mind to the point I had to record and study the replay. The reason why is Mario's Fsmash is -22 on shield. From what I understand parries add +14, bringing his frame advantage to a grand total of -36. Robin's Dsmash has a startup of 16 frames. So adding those together would bring my frame advantage to a total of +20 and his -20. So how on earth would he have been able to shield? Unless I'm missing something crucial that's more than enough. Even if we add the seven frames of input lag native to Ultimate and the two frames of input lag native to my monitor, that should still leave me with 11 frames of advantage when all is said and done. I've also heard that staled moves increase the negativity on shield, though I don't have the numbers, so there is potentially an even bigger gap.

So I can only surmise that I was playing at best, 11+ frames behind this guy. That's pretty much unplayable. Did I eventually two stock him? Yes, but I wasn't happy about it. Did I learn anything in that match? Not at all. That's kind of the issue here, is that even just focusing on trying new things out and things you normally wouldn't do in a "serious" match, it's still 11 frames of lag. Forget trying new strings or approaches, I have a difficult time just spiking bad recoveries and landing BnBs. How can I learn to counter mixups, if it's impossible to react to them in the first place? My opponents can literally just mash the entire match, because at 11 frames, almost everything is safe. I have to intercept their attacks with my own, which isn't always possible, or get hard reads all the time or rely on them making a huge mistake.

Using that match as a frame of reference, I'm generally looking at being 9-15 frames behind my opponent, most of the time. That's before adding in things like stutter and major lag spikes that make it even difficult to see what I'm doing, let alone try to do anything interesting. If I'm not constantly dropping inputs, I'm SDing or missing easy punishes.

And that's kind of the big issue I have. I've hit a wall in my improvement, because my online disallows any sort of nuance or higher play. If I had a local scene, things might be a different story, but as it is, I have to rely on online for everything from neutral to learning those new strings and stuff. And that's before getting into the mental and emotional aspect, where I haven't had fun in months and I'm constantly frustrated and don't want to play anymore. I start off ok, then the constant awful slowly eats away at my mental state and then all of a sudden I'm full on tilted and either have to put the game down or get banned for disconnecting or something. I'm playing off and on now, instead of daily like I used to.

My internet is fine. I'm wired into 100mb fiber, get a ping of around 25ms. The problem is I live in the middle of nowhere and have to be matched with either the local WiFi casuals, that I'm certain largely consist of children, or across state or even out of state. It's completely unplayable on weekends and at peak hours like the evenings. Because the delay based netcode gets worse the more distance you have to travel. It might be fine if I lived in a major city, but I don't. I live like a four hour drive from any major civilization. It also doesn't help that all the patches that were supposed to "improve" the match-making, has made it exponentially worse for me, going from a decent match half the time, to 1% of the time.


I'm not planning on quitting entirely, but I think I should move onto a different "main" game until my situation improves. The off and on seems to suffice for keeping my knowledge of the game up, so I want to use another fighting game to improve my fundamentals. I'll stick around and discuss and lab things, I just won't be playing 3-4 hours a day like I used to.
I just think you might exaggerating to the amount of lag you could be having, based on that example. Might've not been a perfect punish on your end, and then there's the fact you're also taking into account the back hit of D-Smash (Robin's hits front and then back?) has more lag than just hitting forward side first. We all have to deal with lag, so it's a two-way street. Yes, I get button mashers have it easier, but I don't think you don't have strategies agaisnt it, either.

If you also say that playing around higher noon at peak traffic is the worst, you could also try playing late at night, but I don't know your schedule. You probably know about not having any social media or other things on, while playing. I even put my celphone and tablet on Airplane Mode, while playing. Hell, I even disconnect my Chromecast. lol Worth noting I use a LAN adapter, too. And with all these consider, it's not like there isn't at least a mild lag I have to put up with. I did those crazy Banjo plays with lag, and I'm also sure 80-90% of people I face are from neighboring countries, and most definitely not from our community.

Seriously, it's a lot easier to cut loose when you just let go of all of it, the desire to win and everything. I've lost 3 stocks on a match against a bad Samus because I killed myself those three times. If you can learn this, you can get over anything.

As for dealing with button mashers, part of the strategy is being able to mash buttons yourself. My favourite button mashing is throwing out a couple of Nairs, and then some pre-emptive Jab1s, Dtilts (maybe both) and then mixing in some jump away Phantom (varying charges). I used to throw out back-away Dair to cover potential rolls behind me, and then there's also reverse Utilt.

Re--upload:
You might not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like. : D

My friend is a guy who never sits still, so I know how annoying it is, to have to constantly read options after every safe attack.
 
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StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
437
I just think you might exaggerating to the amount of lag you could be having, based on that example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19PeQKPgQN4

5:02-5:47 is a good chunk of what I run into. That annoying "shimmering" combined with lots of delay and "mud" and the occasional lag spike.

9:25-10:16 is similar to the above, but with more lag spikes and the occasional slow down. It's also a good chunk of what I run into.

The rest of the video is what I experience most of the rest of the time. Not depicted are the motion sickness inducing stuttering I've been running into as of late and the very rare little or virtually no lag matches I have maybe once every week or two. I'm not exaggerating, it's unplayable. And lately, it's been less of the time stamped ones and more of the rest.

Might've not been a perfect punish on your end, and then there's the fact you're also taking into account the back hit of D-Smash (Robin's hits front and then back?) has more lag than just hitting forward side first.
Here's the clip in question. As far as I can tell, I pulled that off perfectly and have no explanation for what transpired. I checked the math on him spot-dodging my dash attack and it checks out, so I have no idea why it suddenly deviated for the parry.

And when I said frame 16, I was talking about the back hit. The front hits earlier, due to the sword arc, but both sides hit at the same time when the sword is slammed into the ground.

We all have to deal with lag, so it's a two-way street.
Depends on the nature of the lag, but even then, I still play "offline" in order to insure I'm not ingraining any "online habits", while they're doing all sorts of lag abusing online strategies.

If you also say that playing around higher noon at peak traffic is the worst, you could also try playing late at night, but I don't know your schedule. You probably know about not having any social media or other things on, while playing. I even put my celphone and tablet on Airplane Mode, while playing. Hell, I even disconnect my Chromecast. lol Worth noting I use a LAN adapter, too.
My health issues lead to me having a very wacky schedule, so I play at all sorts of hours. On weekdays, it's laggy wifi players throughout the day and all sorts of horrific connections when people start getting off work/school. Late night(10:00pm-1:00am/22:00-1:00) it's better, but still a little mixed. From 1:00-6:00 it's almost completely dead and I'll run into the same Wifi users over and over again.

Weekends, it's flipped where it's awful through out the day, especially Sunday, but is usually decent late night or early morning. Not only do I not have a smartphone, but I don't leave connections open during play. On occasion, other members of my house might be streaming, but at 100mb bandwidth, that shouldn't and there isn't any perceivable difference when they are gone or I'm the only one awake. I'm also wired with a LAN adapter and have tested everything to ensure it's working properly.

And with all these consider, it's not like there isn't at least a mild lag I have to put up with. I did those crazy Banjo plays with lag, and I'm also sure 80-90% of people I face are from neighboring countries, and most definitely not from our community.
Don't forget the differences in size and infrastructure between our countries. The online infrastructure in America is pretty bad and probably isn't helping the delay at all.

Seriously, it's a lot easier to cut loose when you just let go of all of it, the desire to win and everything. I've lost 3 stocks on a match against a bad Samus because I killed myself those three times. If you can learn this, you can get over anything.
Again, it's not about winning or losing or GSP or anything like that. It's about having something remotely tolerable and dare I say, enjoyable. It's about having some sort of consistency, in the same match even, and not wondering whether your move is going to work. It's about actually being able to see what you're doing and not guessing through all the stutter and spikes and shimmers and things you won't see offline.

Even when I just want to sit down and screw around, it's still not fun. I end up just going through the motions fighting the same patterns and playstyles, because there isn't really anything else you can do in that heavy of lag. Playing my friend offline for the first time in months was a real eye opener. Now that he's moved and I have no local scene and can't travel, I have to play exclusively online. And that's why I'm burnt out and starting to hate the game.

I popped in Smash 4 for a couple of days last week. Played on the same LAN adapter and cable. It was much better in terms of lag than Ultimate. It was smooth a good chunk of the time, mildly laggy other times, and the really bad stuff wasn't very often. Basically the opposite of Ultimate. I've played other games like Rocket League and Fortnite and even Call of Duty wasn't as bad online. From what little I've played of SC6, it's pretty smooth too. The problem lies with Ultimate. And it's only been getting worse for me with each patch.

I'm not giving the game up entirely. I just want to play the online much less than I have been. There's no reason for me to be constantly frustrated and not having fun, playing something that has less consistency than an item match. I actually have more fun fighting level nine cpus than playing online. Not just about the lack of consistency or the problems it causes in the match, just simply experiencing this level of lag on a constant basis isn't good or enjoyable.
 

Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
178
I usually don't leave these out in the open, but **** it. This place needs more Zelda:

https://streamable.com/h80me
https://streamable.com/t2iwy
https://streamable.com/9h4wb
https://streamable.com/fktem

Been labbing a lot of D-Air in the last couple of days. I find it hard to perfectly autocancel it, but apparently it's -6, making it our safest aerial. D-Airs combos at basically every percent and leads to a couple of kill confirms. I'd rather D-Air than grab most of the time, honestly.

I'm also noticing a lot of scenarios where I could just kill people starting 20% surprisingly consistent, as long as there's platforms. Can't believe I've been banning platforms this whole time.

S StoicPhantom
 
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daddypeach

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
36
Those dair reads are really crispy!! I love how you punish airdodge after uptilt. Really nice haha.

I have labbed dair against clouds upb and it is really hard to make it truly -6.
 

Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
178
Those dair reads are really crispy!! I love how you punish airdodge after uptilt. Really nice haha.

I have labbed dair against clouds upb and it is really hard to make it truly -6.
Thank you, I've been really experimenting with Dair conversions during the last few days.

You did? Thought I was the only one. Yeah, it seems a lot easier on sight, but Zelda is so floaty, it feels like you really have to delay the Dair. I might not be FF'ing it very well.
 

daddypeach

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
36
I think if you fast-fall at the peak of your full-hop then immediately dair, then that's pretty good but probably not -6 good.

Double-tapping down on the c-stick at the peak of full-hop is worse frame advantage wise, but easier to execute. I prefer this for cross-ups because it's easier to control your drift when you fast-fall using the c-stick.

I don't think you can rely on getting dair -6, tbh. Falling dairs from a short-hop are too situational. Not really something to try in neutral, imo. If I'm falling on someone's shield from a short hop, it's probably because I'm using fair/bair. I think the risk/reward is just better, but I dunno.
 
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Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
178
I've actually been using it pretty much as a staple approach these last few days. lol Definitely more than I should. Success is mixed, but surprisingly not bad. I'd have to tweak it down so they're not constantly expecting. I have some replays of it against Link and Wario, so I'll see if they reflect that.

FF Fair is a little weird. -8 isn't so bad, but it's usually enough to get shieldgrabbed. I tend to get a little hasty and throw it out before the lowest point, but I've always had the impression it was kind of safe at the lowest height (she lowprofiles a bit). On the flipside, Bair doesn't low profile as much in spite of also being -8 on shield. This is why I used a fair bit of something like Fair > Dtilt.
 
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daddypeach

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
36
I was using a secondary and playing a Zelda online (I love you all) who really thought she was gonna get me with a bunch of dair approaches. Zelda is seriously wide open from the sides. It is so easy to swat her away if she is not threatening you with alternative options.

I think you can space fair to be out of grab range for shield pressure , but it probably whiffs if they don't shield.

I'm starting to notice players trying to perfect shield certain aerial approaches. Like Mario's fast-fall Nair is something that can be parried if it's predictable. That fast-fall timing is something I think everyone kind of gets at this point, but I think Zelda's floatiness can actually counter that timing. I have got a lot of people letting go of shield too early by fair/bair really close to the ground. Switching up the timing is probably a good thing, in theory. Another fun trick is to SHFF like you are gonna tomahawk and then immediately rising fair. Kick 'em in the shield-grab. Lol
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
437
Don't underestimate FF Nair either. Not only is it decent has a mix-up and has the potential to autocancel, but it can combo into LK at higher percents. I don't think it's safe on shield, but it can be combined with the other moves mentioned.

You can condition your opponent to the point that you can sometimes safely float over them or onstage, because they're expecting an attack.
 

daddypeach

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
36
OK... here are some vids. Pardon the WiFi moments. I went on some quickplay in elite smash (5.7+mil range) and just decided to record, not considering whether I won or lost. I was still warming up in the beginning because I have really been playing a LOTTT of Sheik lately. In the end, I get 3 stocked by a crazy Daisy. I thought PT, DK, and DDD matches were pretty intense. Didn't edge-gaurd as much as I like, but I did get some sweet-spot Din's, and tried to short hop dair more.

Vs. Snake (Win)
https://youtu.be/YnSOntu9zkQ

Vs Wario (Win)
https://youtu.be/MnhiZDD2xdY

Vs. Incineroar (Win) Something weird happens with the interaction of Phantom and Clothesline
https://youtu.be/0B5mP8hXe-8

Vs. Terry (Win)
https://youtu.be/vx9ZGSDXtWI

Vs. PT (win)
https://youtu.be/GGSGfoVtTC4

Vs Hero (Win ... 3 stock)
https://youtu.be/ISesRERsO0A

Vs DDD (Win)
https://youtu.be/o82eTQwLTUI

Vs DK (Lose)
https://youtu.be/8f71E9lrK0E

Vs Daisy (win)
https://youtu.be/jd2IFH6TlHI

Vs Daisy (Destroyed)
https://youtu.be/4q_GE6gWLeQ
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
437
OK... here are some vids.
I think you did alright. Got some sneaky Nayru edgeguards and were pretty patient overall.

Some general pointers:

- You have a tendency to jump after a successful full charge of Phantom. This is bad for two reasons: 1. You are unable to follow up on any openings it might create and 2. You open yourself up to possible attack. Once you pull off the full charge, you can duck behind it and be protected from almost any attack. Most opponents will hesitate in that scenario and you can often just shield when in doubt and they won't really be able to punish it. That will then allow you to exploit any openings created.

- Going along with the above, there were a lot of empty jumps near the opponent. This allowed opponents to punish those jumps, given they were already doing aerials. You should do a rising Nair during those situations. It won't make you anymore punishable on whiff and will usually beat out the opponents attacks. If you were trying to Dair, you should try doing that when you already are in advantage or as a punish, not necessarily as neutral tool(at least for now).

- You also have a tendency to hesitate when your opponent is doing a slow and telegraphed attack. This was especially apparent in the Incineroar match(Up-b and charged Fsmash), but also showed up with others, like DDD's Up-B. Even online, those moves are really slow and laggy, so you have time to step back and setup a punish. You don't need to try to punish DDD's super armor with Nair, you can jump to the side of him and LK when he hits the ground, to avoid the stars generated by his landing.

- You need to mix your getup more. Fairs with massive coverage like DK's and Daisy's were doing some work covering your getup. You shouldn't ever normal getup, unless your opponent backs off and starts hopping towards center stage or something like that. Rolls and even ledge stalls and regrabs can be beneficial. I like to hang from the ledge a bit and see if I can bait my opponent into trying to approach and then roll behind him or drop down Up-air or even jump Nayru. Often times waiting for a bit and then quickly doing an action will catch them off guard and the game's speed and input lag will do the rest.

- Don't let them get to the ground for free and Up-Tilt more. Up-Tilt is a very good anti-air and leads to juggles. It's also transcendent and will beat most aerials in the game.

- DK

You don't need to be aggressive or approach in this one. He has no ability force you to approach and you have Phantom. Let him come to you and Up-Tilt and Nair will body him. This is where you want to edgeguard, given his weight. You had opportunities when he had to recover low, but didn't take them. I realize it's not easy to do online, but try to Dair or Nayru him. At the very least, see if you can ledge trump and Bair him.

- Daisy

Daisy is basically Zelda, minus Phantom and kill power. They both want the opponent to be aggressive and approach, so don't do so. The difference between the Daisy you lost and the Daisy you won, is the Daisy you lost hung back and used easy and safe options like Fair to cover your approach. Anytime it looked like they were being aggressive, they were just reading and punishing your jumps, which unfortunately you did a lot of. Definitely play it more safe and bait her into approaching instead. This MU is long, frustrating, boring, and full of mind games, but be patient and don't approach and you should win.

Patience and a cool head is paramount, as it's easy to get tilted and overaggressive in this MU. With the right reads and baits, you should be able to pull ahead, now that Daisy's Fair and Side-B has been nerfed.


Good stuff otherwise, you definitely held your own. Just tone down the jumps a little.
 

daddypeach

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
36
I think you did alright. Got some sneaky Nayru edgeguards and were pretty patient overall.

Some general pointers:

- You have a tendency to jump after a successful full charge of Phantom. This is bad for two reasons: 1. You are unable to follow up on any openings it might create and 2. You open yourself up to possible attack. Once you pull off the full charge, you can duck behind it and be protected from almost any attack. Most opponents will hesitate in that scenario and you can often just shield when in doubt and they won't really be able to punish it. That will then allow you to exploit any openings created.

- Going along with the above, there were a lot of empty jumps near the opponent. This allowed opponents to punish those jumps, given they were already doing aerials. You should do a rising Nair during those situations. It won't make you anymore punishable on whiff and will usually beat out the opponents attacks. If you were trying to Dair, you should try doing that when you already are in advantage or as a punish, not necessarily as neutral tool(at least for now).

- You also have a tendency to hesitate when your opponent is doing a slow and telegraphed attack. This was especially apparent in the Incineroar match(Up-b and charged Fsmash), but also showed up with others, like DDD's Up-B. Even online, those moves are really slow and laggy, so you have time to step back and setup a punish. You don't need to try to punish DDD's super armor with Nair, you can jump to the side of him and LK when he hits the ground, to avoid the stars generated by his landing.

- You need to mix your getup more. Fairs with massive coverage like DK's and Daisy's were doing some work covering your getup. You shouldn't ever normal getup, unless your opponent backs off and starts hopping towards center stage or something like that. Rolls and even ledge stalls and regrabs can be beneficial. I like to hang from the ledge a bit and see if I can bait my opponent into trying to approach and then roll behind him or drop down Up-air or even jump Nayru. Often times waiting for a bit and then quickly doing an action will catch them off guard and the game's speed and input lag will do the rest.

- Don't let them get to the ground for free and Up-Tilt more. Up-Tilt is a very good anti-air and leads to juggles. It's also transcendent and will beat most aerials in the game.

- DK

You don't need to be aggressive or approach in this one. He has no ability force you to approach and you have Phantom. Let him come to you and Up-Tilt and Nair will body him. This is where you want to edgeguard, given his weight. You had opportunities when he had to recover low, but didn't take them. I realize it's not easy to do online, but try to Dair or Nayru him. At the very least, see if you can ledge trump and Bair him.

- Daisy

Daisy is basically Zelda, minus Phantom and kill power. They both want the opponent to be aggressive and approach, so don't do so. The difference between the Daisy you lost and the Daisy you won, is the Daisy you lost hung back and used easy and safe options like Fair to cover your approach. Anytime it looked like they were being aggressive, they were just reading and punishing your jumps, which unfortunately you did a lot of. Definitely play it more safe and bait her into approaching instead. This MU is long, frustrating, boring, and full of mind games, but be patient and don't approach and you should win.

Patience and a cool head is paramount, as it's easy to get tilted and overaggressive in this MU. With the right reads and baits, you should be able to pull ahead, now that Daisy's Fair and Side-B has been nerfed.


Good stuff otherwise, you definitely held your own. Just tone down the jumps a little.
Thanks!!! I will definitely rewatch the matches and keep all that in mind and respond again.

Edit::::

So I thought about all your feedback and to me it translated that I was jumping too much in neutral and not using enough uptilt!!! Also, I am over-aggressive. I totally see it. So I worked on it. I didn't realize how disappeared my groundgame had become, so I started dash-dance more and focus on safer spacing and not getting greedy with my block-strings.

I was probably fishing for dairs in those moments when I was doing empty short-hops. It's silly, I know lol But I definitely do a fair amount of SHFF Fair mixed up with rising aerials.

I started utilizing uptilt as an anti-air a bit more as well, though I still prefer pre-emptive nairs when someone's full-hop is problematic (AKA Ike). I've also been using pivot cancel ftilt much more. It is very amazing. I don't know what was wrong with me.

Thanks for the DDD tip, that is super hard to execute depending on your momentum. Haven't landed that one yet, although I think I understand the spacing logic.

I definitely need to work on ledge-trumping. I'm not a sm4sher, so I feel like I missed the boat on that muscle memory and snapping the ledge from stage is so crazy inconsistent. I will get on that next.

I have a decent Daisy in my pocket, so I was thrown off by that really good one because she was sooo precise and good. I really felt locked into her mix-ups. I need to reanalyze those to figure out my escape options. But, yeah, I get what you mean about keeping a neutral head in the neutral game lol

Also, thanks for noticing my jumping habit out of fully charged phantom. I started mixing it up a little. I have a shield break string off of a full-hop that goes ff FAIR > Phantom > Dsmash. Also, I notice many people like to double jump over Zelda after she respawns, so I pre-emptively full hop so I can react to their vibe by either FF Fairing or double jump nairing them into a Din's or Naryu's follow-up depending on DI.

I've also been incorporating RAR phantom recently.

I have been working on my reactions to charged attacks. Ehhhh it's still hard, sometimes. Some charged smashes are easier than others. When I am on top of things, I will usually just teleport into them. I think that's the fastest thing. But against Jiggz, Sheikm or Kirby side smash, I like to charge Fsmash and wait out their forward movement.

So, yeah! I have been playing more patient. Mixing rolling behind/away after landing an aerial. Staying on the ground and anti-airing with tilts and rolling more often. Dashing into PC ftilt or dtilt into mix-ups. Hanging back instead of over-extending. Taking over from center-stage when I can.

Thanks a lot!!
 
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Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
178
This was from like two months ago, but a friend uploaded it only recently. It was surprisingly decent for a tournament set, but at the same time, it's obvious I'm pretty Kick a little too much- funny enough, at least half of those were likely misinputs (forward > Nair or UAir). I was definitely landing way too much on top of him, and that even cost me a stock at least once, or even twice.


Game 1, 2:42. Missed a tremendous opportunity at a potential (very likely) kill off of Dair > Up-B at the top platform, had I'd only been able to anticipate that kind of interaction. I'm a bit more receptive to these potential follow-ups now, but they're still a bit green for me, when it comes in conjunction to Phantom (it sends people to tumble at very low percents).

Game 3, :56-57 & 2:07, maybe not garanteed kills, but I definitely could've secured a lot more damage if I read those right. :57, could've easily D-Air > Jab Lock, or something.

I also notice in about Game, I missed exactly two Dtilt > Fairs. The first one didn't look like it combo'd (at around 50), but the 2nd one seems like I was off the execution by being a little slow. Apparently, a lot of people think this isn't true, but I know through tons of experience that it is.

Overall, I think my obvious drawback here was constantantly approaching poorly with stuff like FH Dair, and things that just left me open, in general. I wasn't as used to parrying eggz there, but it's not like I had an excuse for not reflecting them. I had a couple of whiffed dash grabs, which also partly tells just how awful it is (not just in the Yoshi matchup).

S StoicPhantom , you mentioned you struggle against these kind of characters, right?
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
437
S StoicPhantom , you mentioned you struggle against these kind of characters, right?
Yeah, mostly just killing them, which I think is just an MU thing. It also doesn't help that I primarily play Yoshi online. Haven't played one in a long time though.

Reflecting his egg isn't really helpful, as he likely won't be hit by it and Nayru has too much endlag to follow off a successful hit. You just kind of have to play around them. I agree with everything else though.
 
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