‍♀️‍♀️‍♀️Official Zelda Video Archive - WIP get in here and post some ZELDA VODS GORLS ‍♀️‍♀️‍♀️

Aussie1024

"Stow your fear. It's now or never!"
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I just mentioned it as an option, but unless you are really good with it, you likely won't be hitting it outside of Link or Ganon. Use it on slower recoveries without a huge disjoint above them, like the aforementioned
]

There are honestly people out there who make Dair spiking so easy. Then you try to do it yourself and you realize how much skill and practice it takes to land.

I was meaning any future criticism by posters not me or anyone that has given you constructive feedback.
I gotcha. I wanna absorb and take in all the feedback I receive and see how I can apply it. I can naturally take criticism pretty hard (mostly due to the perfectionism I put on myself), so I hope to use this as a way of learning that criticism isn't a free ticket for people to attack you. In this case, it's their way of helping you improve in whatever you're struggling with.

I wouldn't really use the better players here, as a measuring stick of where you are supposed to be. And compared to someone like Ven, who can go toe-to-toe with Void's Pichu, us more experienced players here, are still far behind. As I mentioned before, you have a framework going, just need more practice to refine it.
I'm probably just overwhelmed on this forum overall from what I've seen people do and how intricately you all talk about the strategies of using Phantom and whatnot. It makes me feel behind in that I don't know Zelda as well as some others hear do. Again, it's probably just because I don't know her very well since I'm relatively new. I probably don't give myself enough credit with the framework I have established. The videos I posted make me feel less confident about my Zelda, but more so because my anxiety played a part in that. It also exposed some things I need to improve on, which should help for the better going forward. It's just a matter of practicing and learning. Hopefully, over a period of time with picking up stuff from you all, I can start to see results.

And while perfectionism is harmful and self-destructive, at the same time it can't really be denied it produces some good results sometimes lol. Try to find a balance between being hard working and being too hard on yourself.
It definitely can. it's about finding the right balance like you said. I wanna work to the best of my ability and improve based on the feedback I receive, but also realize I'm new to her and have stuff to learn and practice.
 

StoicPhantom

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I'm probably just overwhelmed on this forum overall from what I've seen people do and how intricately you all talk about the strategies of using Phantom and whatnot.
Don't worry, I and I'm sure others here, spent many days of suffering, during the first few weeks to gain all that information. The first few weeks were pretty brutal, until things started getting figured out. Just practice your technical skills and muscle memory, while studying the information here, so you don't retread the same path and you'll eventually catch up.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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That Pichu one was just a nice string, but the K Rool one (another clip with ZSS too) was quite impressive because Up B has a much different amount of knockback than grounded Up B. I can barely get this damn move to work. Have started using it on stage vs projectiles though. It's going well, but literally 0 punishes OR followups like you're showing here. There is actually so much more to this move for me to mess and learn with. I think I am really sleeping on how many insane possibilities this move brings to the table. It's so fast and so strong. I think this is probably Zelda's #1 move that will be the hardest to master.
The idea is indeed to punish some sort of lag with it. A lot of projectiles are a good idea. Stuff like the Links, you can catch pretty well. Again, you can pretty much do this against any sort of lag. I once caught someone throwing out an aerial from the other side of the stage (though, not always recommended).

I also don't always just throw it out after a couple of juggles. I try to be conservative with it. I once got punished by a Simon/Richter Up-B for it, and it's a super early kill.

You're best bet is probably mastering it's OoS version. Parrying stuff to it will likely go a very long way, and it feels really good to kill with it.

As for dair, I've not used it much OoS/parry much at all, I just kinda autopilot to fmash or kick. It's a insanely good kill confirm I should get into doing more. Regarding your dair usage, do you use it much outside of parry/OoS and edgeguarding? I've kinda noticed I fish for it in neutral sometimes rather than just saving it in the back pocket for a punish which I think is the better way to use it (and bruh parry > plat drop >dair is disgusting, I'm so stealing that)
I started using a fair amount of D-air in neutral, in general. It's more of a mixup thing, since it covers an angle stuff like N-air don't. Like, if you see someone charging an F-Smash, you just run up and D-air them. As to it's OoS, it's not always your best or fastest option. Again, it's a sort of mixup. Like if I happen to be at the ledge and Parry something like a Roy F-Smash and can kill them at 50 in that spot (whereas Up-B wouldn't).

Yeah, Parry > Drop D-air is insane. You can't punish faster attacks with it, but I haven't had too much trouble with it.

And just for the memes, I play "Spot Oz's Phantom" while watching.
Grand Total: 0 ;)
I would say use Phantom more but I feel honestly you'd just miss out on a lot of these insane plays. I never knew Zelda could be so aggressive like this rather than being a bit slower and more wall/space-y oriented with Phantom and Din's. For you, I feel like the best thing you'll get from Phantom is just conditioning people.
Phantom Edition when.

I've definitely not discarded it's use...I'll get it down, soon. It's not just that I forget to use it, but I always said I would prefer to be more conservative with it altogether. Using it at the ledge seems most ideal, to me.


I appreciate the enthusiasm. Thank you.
 
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Aussie1024

"Stow your fear. It's now or never!"
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Don't worry, I and I'm sure others here, spent many days of suffering, during the first few weeks to gain all that information. The first few weeks were pretty brutal, until things started getting figured out. Just practice your technical skills and muscle memory, while studying the information here, so you don't retread the same path and you'll eventually catch up.
Yeah they certainly were. I didn't contribute to those conversations too much, but when I was around it seemed a very crazy ordeal. I'll make sure to take in what you and others have said and best apply it to my game. I'll make sure to post anything on here that I upload concerning my Zelda play and get more advice. Thanks for your input on my videos. I apologize if I sounded a bit negative in a few of my replies. It's been a struggle learning a new character type, although I'm loving using Zelda in this game.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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holy **** I'm actually doing this
vs. :ultmewtwo:

I think it goes without saying, but a lot of those Up-Bs felt really out of place. I get the feeling you were trying to punish his Shadow Ball lag, which isn't a bad idea, but then a couple recoveries were also like that. Talking about Shadow Ball, Din's seems like a really bad option at trying to contest it. It's incredibly slow. If you want to go out of reaction, you can try a mix of more Nayru's and better-timed Up-Bs (though I can't blame you because lag).

About Phantom, I'm starting to see it's not as good as we thought in forcing in approach, and let alone if the guy is across the stage and Phantom only covers half of it (let alone giving up stage control for a full charge). I think Mewtwo just forces you to approach in this matchup more than you do to him, but that doesn't mean Phantom can't be used a little more aggresively (it's a large wall you put up in front of you, after all...). I'm clearly not the best guy to be talking about Phantom, but if I had to think about it, I'd ideally use it more when I'm starting to corner my opponent at the ledge, as well as ledgetrapping them. If you're slowly forcing them agaisnt a wall, they're forced to approach you and/or jump over it (which lessens the guessing game for you).

Good Phantom + Din's, by the way.

vs. :ultpeach:

oh lawd. This Peach player is ****ing hilarious.

I feel like you were letting him (her?) do a lot of stuff for free. And out of all the matchups, I felt you should've replaced all those Din's for Phantoms. It would've definitely done a lot more, and would've at least walled out all those Side Bs. As a guy there said, you could've used more Nayru's against her (granted, you'd the timing for it). And from my own mind, I think you should use a lot more of Zelda's normals. Namely, U-Tilt. U-Tilts, Jabs, Dash Attack and even some D-Tilts in-between would've put a lot more preassure on her.

U-Tilt kind of goes without saying. She lives in the air, and it's your main juggling tool that leads into pretty much everything. And with a player that just won't stop wiggling, it's no surprise you can't just run up and grab (let alone with Zelda's Frame 14 arms...). For that, you kind of just have to mollywhop and force him to shield. This is where stuff like N-Air and Dash Attack come in. You use Dash Attack as a long-ranged quick punisher for stuff like whiffs and landings. I use it a lot after dashing in and back into it, though I don't expect you to play like that way. N-Air isn't exactly nilly-willy spammy, but it's an amazing tool to when you get in on their zone...it's hard to explain, but it's right before you see them throw out an aerial. It's best used as an OoS punish and you want to cross it up on their shield to remain safe.

To sum this up? I feel you're using too many slow attacks and nearly enough of the fast ones. I don't think Zelda is as an effective camper/zoner as people think she is, and I think that's what's limiting most people from seeing what she's capable of. You need to get in touch with your close quarters, and I feel you can build off of that solid base into said camping tools like Phantom and Din's. And I forgot to mention, but players like that is one of the reason we need our OoS game. Stuff like N-Air, Up-B and especially our Kicks. We can punish a lot of Smash Attacks on our shield for ridiculous kills, and Peach is no exception.


vs. :ultbowser:

Not sure if there's a whole lot to say, as pretty much everything you did worked. The Bowser player wasn't playing awful, you just really beat him at Rock-Paper-Scisors. You know, wall him out and got your grabs appropriately without feeling overcomitted.

Your Up-Bs still feel a little weird, and I'm not too sure if your intention is either a mix of a punish as well as trying to simply reset the situation to neutral. Either way, I'd start avoiding it. I, personally, had a bit of that playing a few guys at the U.S. Didn't take much but a shield to start getting punished for it (I was also trying to catch lag on moves). Try to leave that for stuff you pretty much know for sure you'll punish, like the Links when throwing certain projectiles and they're on the other side of the stage.

We can also get a ton of follow-ups on Bowser, and I'm pretty sure we have both our kill confirms off of Kick and U-Air (again, DI-dependent). Killed a Bowser at 80-90 with just D-Throw > Kick at the ledge, which makes her scary for them.


vs. :ultness:

This was something I was trying to get at with the Peach, but this is an even worse degree. It's good that you point it out, because I think it's something defensive players might be more suceptible to (getting overwhelmed at close quarters and being combo food). I saw it a lot with other Corrin players in Smash 4. They start depending on their zoning tools so much, that they just don't know how to respond to these kind of threats.

I'm actually not entirely sure what you're supposed to do, "objectively", as a Zelda player...but from my own experience, I try to look for openings when they throw out their aerials. I try to punish their landing with Dash Attack, and their N-Air with our own, OoS. Once they're conditioned to shield more, that's where the grabs come along. You want to look for OoS punishes, like N-Air, Up-B, and maybe even the ocassional D-Air OoS as a mixup. When I say "objectively, as a Zelda player", I mean going with the usual Zelda protocol that you're supposed to do X, Y & Z and not necessarily how I'd go about it. Since there's not always a clear-cut answer for Zelda in X situation, you just have to get creative and your own thing. Now, for some actual Zelda stuff, I still think Din's isn't really a neutral tool. A lot of those were far better suited as Phantoms (even just a quick, half-charge). Learn short hop backwards > Phantom, and especially with the first phases. It's something I'm trying to incorporate, and I can see it working as a sort of quick wall for her to put up, kind of like a sword (or one shield).

Lastly, I would try to avoid making a habit out of Nayru's for trying to get out of everything. A smart player will just start shielding the entire move and punishing accordingly (we have a ton of endlag, don't forget). You're better off with OoS, like N-Air or just grab. At kill percents, Up-B does it if they're close enough.


vs. :ultvillager:

Much like the Bowser matchup, I'm not sure there's a whole lot to correct, bar a few timeframes:

2:58 - Nice Kick.
4:07 - Nice F-Smash.
4:41 - Learn to recover from different angles. It'll actually help, and even though recovering low is great, it's another mixup to your toolkit.


Why did I mention the first two? It has to do with reading aerial drift and catching your opponent running off of platforms and landing. You'd be impressed at the amount of kills this can net you. I'm starting to look for misplaced Pichu F-Airs, and I can get stuff like Pivot Grab and F-Smash kills for overcommitting. It's the same concept for every character overreaching with an aerial. You just run back and F-Smash them. You can apply a similiar concept for trapping the ledge with F-Smash.

As to the actual matchup, everything you did worked because it didn't feel like the guy was preassuring you the right way. An isolated Lloid Rocket with only a few slingshots in-between is hardly preassure when you can very easily reflect the former. An annoying Village and Isabelle with probably spam the hell out of it. With the amount of endlag we have out of Nayru's, it's just not optional to reflect every single one of them. It can leave you open, and it heavily kills momentum in his favour. You're going to have to start running up and shielding them (ideally, Parry), and maybe sometimes (very sparringly) throwing out a Teleport. Phantom would really help, but I doubt you'd be able to get a full-charge in the middle of the fray. Once you are in his zone, you can go in with any one of Dash Attack (disjoint, beats out grounded attacks), N-Air (up close, when he's about to jump) or Grab (shield, obviously). I'm pretty sure our U-Air beats out turnip, so there's that too.

Also, you can reflect bowling ball for whatever the hell it's worth.

Actual, general advice:

- Stop Teleporting into people unless it's a sure punish, and try to save it for actual surprise kills. I get the feeling you might be staling it more than you should...
- Start throwing out a few D-Airs as mixups, whether it'd be trying to land (once in a while, don't spam), OoS...you have to see it, to know what I mean. When you do get them, that's when you get jank punishes like Stomp > Heel Oz Special TM®
- Start spamming the hell out of U-Air. Learn fast fall short hop U-Air and start sharking platforms with it and N-Air. You'll start eating shields and forcing them to airdodge. This thing beats out Link & Cloud's D-Airs.
- Your follow-up game. Sure, we all miss them one in a while, but it's not like they're super complex. Namely, if they're DI'ing up/neutral I'm pretty sure we have a kill confirm off of U-Air at like 80-100. You have to buffer your jump, so practice it. I've actually gotten it on Pichu at 65-70 and kills him (tight window, I think). If you D-Throw them at the ledge and they DI away, you can get a kill at like 50-60. It's insane.
- Again, use your normals. Use a lot more U-Tilt, N-Air and Dash Attack, which are our prime juggling tools. Just because a person isn't right above you doesn't mean U-Tilt doesn't work. You can learn to reverse U-Tilt approach, as well as trying to catch an aerial approach just by running forward. People think Phantom, but Iegit think these are our among our Top 5 moves. D-Tilt is really good for me because it's Frame 4-5 and it can combo into Kick. A lot of the time it nets me kills at 50-70 because of it. Not to mention, it's one of your better tools against an opponent's shield.
- I respect different playstyles, but I think you're way too passive. You weren't forcing people to shield enough, which is part of the reason grabbing felt ineffective in your play. I'm telling you, Din's isn't as good in neutral as people think. I get the feeling people expect Phantom and Din's to do the job for them, and expect people to approach, but it ends up working against them. I don't think a smart player will run across the screen into a charged Phantom, which kills the feeling of threat.
- Talking about Phantom, I think it should be used more as you're putting them into preassure, and into a corner (well, ledge). That's when their options narrow down, and they pretty much have to do something about it.
- Kick, Up-B and U-Smash OoS. Learn these, and you'll make people think twice before randomly hitting your shield unsafely. These are a lot faster than our grab, so there's that, too.
- god I'm forgetting something

Like I said, I wanted to be able to take my time in doing this. I'm never confident in trying to critique people's videos, but at least giving myself the time for it allows me to be a bit more mindful about it. I said I was going to do it, so here it is...hence, the "I.O.U" (literally, "I Owe You").

Enjoy the ****ing book.
 

Aussie1024

"Stow your fear. It's now or never!"
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Thanks I appreciate this. I thought "I.O.U." meant that. I wasn't too sure and I am always wary of people trying to mess with me. My apologies.

Talking about Shadow Ball, Din's seems like a really bad option at trying to contest it. It's incredibly slow. If you want to go out of reaction, you can try a mix of more Nayru's and better-timed Up-Bs (though I can't blame you because lag).
I run into this problem way too much. I don't intend to use Din's at certain points when I mean to use Nayru or Phantom. I just screw up the input and gets me punished. Though there are times I do it when I don't know how fast my opponent is approaching. I'm trying to learn to use Din's in a much safer manner.

I feel like you were letting him (her?) do a lot of stuff for free.
Yeah that was a big takeaway from me after I did that. I have a weird thing against players I "should beat." They do stuff in such unorthodox ways because they don't know the game or character that well. It makes it harder for me to read them. My overall game suffers from it.

And out of all the matchups, I felt you should've replaced all those Din's for Phantoms.
Definitely. Idk why I end up using that more than Phantom since it's most of our neutral lol. Plus Din's isn't safe most of the time.

I think you should use a lot more of Zelda's normals. Namely, U-Tilt. U-Tilts, Jabs, Dash Attack and even some D-Tilts in-between would've put a lot more preassure on her.
In my Smash history, I have struggled to incorporate tilts into my overall game. Now I'm really starting to work on them. Since these videos, I've made sure to incorporate all of these. The one exception is D-Tilt. It's so difficult to land. Dashing around and then trying to get someone with it in the heat of battle is hard. I think nerves played into this as well and forgot a lot of her moves situationally.

Learn short hop backwards > Phantom, and especially with the first phases
This sounds like a handy tool to use. Like you said, I'm not sure Din's is a helpful neutral tool. That could be a good replacement for it, at least frequent Din's. Ness is always a weird matchup for me. He's always been a hard one for me to read.

Lastly, I would try to avoid making a habit out of Nayru's for trying to get out of everything
Yeah, I've been wondering about substitutes for using Nayru's too much. It's a handy tool, but can get predictable if used too much. She definitely has a lot more options than just that for getting out of stuff. Especially in the Villager matchup, I get tempted into doing it too much because he and Isabelle have tons of projectiles which makes it easy to spam. Yet that isn't something to do at all.

Learn to recover from different angles. It'll actually help, and even though recovering low is great, it's another mixup to your toolkit.
From watching what Ven was doing wrong at the tourney, I was thinking about incorporating recovering differently as well. Recovering below the ledge can get you punished easily. I recovered diagonally once today against a bot, so I'm hoping to get the timing and input down with more reps.

As a sidenote, I always forget that the bowling ball is a projectile lol.

Stop Teleporting into people unless it's a sure punish, and try to save it for actual surprise kills.
This was my chief concern with my game. I get fooled into using it aggressively to recover, which gets me in trouble. Today, facing bots and one online player, I only did it once, which is an improvement. It's just finding different ways to get back on-stage since it's not easy for Zelda to do so.

Start throwing out a few D-Airs as mixups,
This is a move I have a hard time landing. I always get punished whenever I try to do it. I usually try to do it when I'm landing. Maybe it's the timing I can't get down? I'm not too sure.

Start spamming the hell out of U-Air.
This is another move I'm inconsistent with landing. I'm good with landing it under platforms and sometimes when they're in the air, but it's another hard move for me to consistently execute. I'll try the move you suggested.

You have to buffer your jump, so practice it.
This is something new to me so I'll try to look stuff up and see how I can incorporate that.

Again, use your normals
I felt like in these matches the nerves really got to my head. I honestly forgot that I had effective tools like those. Like I said earlier, I have them decently incorporated into my game, but I'm still struggling to land U-tilt consistently. I'm gonna try to work on landing D-tilt more often as well. Despite its hitbox, it seems useful for grabs, aerials, and other follow-ups.

I respect different playstyles, but I think you're way too passive.
This was a mix of nerves and also trying too hard to read them. This is the first Smash game I'm really trying to improve as a player, and reading my opponents is something I'm working on. There are times were I read people well and get a good punish, but there are other times (like in these videos) where I was too nervous to figure out what to do next, so I just sent out Phantom and / or Din's to do the work. Hopefully it'll come with more reps in playing against people.

Talking about Phantom, I think it should be used more as you're putting them into preassure,
That's what I'm thinking as well. Its offensive use is nice, but it's main use should be pressuring the opponent into making a mistake. As I mentioned before, I'm still learning how to play strategically and take advantage of my opponent's slip-ups. I think I'm getting a hang of how to use each stage of Phantom, but I gotta learn how to use it in pressuring people.

Kick, Up-B and U-Smash OoS.
Off-camera, I do decently landing the first two OoS - the LK's pretty well, Up-B's okay. Hopefully whenever I record next (which will hopefully be tomorrow or Wednesday), I can show better examples of using those (thought I shouldn't expect it to be perfect). Aside from using it when my opponent is above me, I'm still trying to figure out the best uses for U-Smash.

Like I said, I wanted to be able to take my time in doing this. I'm never confident in trying to critique people's videos, but at least giving myself the time for it allows me to be a bit more mindful about it.
Thanks so much for taking the time you needed to give me the advice. I apologize if I seemed a bit impatient in the matter, particularly in trying to figure out what you meant on my profile. I appreciate the feedback, and hope I can fix what you told me to fix to better improve my game. I also apologize for the incredibly long post lol. I wanted to make sure I covered all bases on what stood out to me from your feedback.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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had a few in the oven

vs. :ultpichu:


vs. :ultpiranha:


vs. :ultpokemontrainer:



Yeah that was a big takeaway from me after I did that. I have a weird thing against players I "should beat." They do stuff in such unorthodox ways because they don't know the game or character that well. It makes it harder for me to read them. My overall game suffers from it.
It happens to more people than you think. Was happening to me when I first picked up that game...then I learned to shield. Best you could do is rid off that stigma and actually learn from it, because these players also exist in tournament bracket. In fact, I have a friend who plays "like that", and it benefits me because I basically have the "For Glory Mac" MU down.

Hint, he can't C-Stick our Shield for free unless he wants a heel to his face.


Definitely. Idk why I end up using that more than Phantom since it's most of our neutral lol. Plus Din's isn't safe most of the time.
I'd pretty much just save it for offstage kills or when you absolutely know they won't make it (i.e Ganondorf I guess).


The one exception is D-Tilt. It's so difficult to land. Dashing around and then trying to get someone with it in the heat of battle is hard. I think nerves played into this as well and forgot a lot of her moves situationally.
I know that very well, because I've only recently started throwing them out there. I used to do more Jab 1 > D-Tilt, since Jab seems a lot easier to land, and it kind of combos into it. Learn it's follow-ups, and that's where you'll get the most out of it.
From watching what Ven was doing wrong at the tourney, I was thinking about incorporating recovering differently as well. Recovering below the ledge can get you punished easily. I recovered diagonally once today against a bot, so I'm hoping to get the timing and input down with more reps.

As a sidenote, I always forget that the bowling ball is a projectile lol.

This was my chief concern with my game. I get fooled into using it aggressively to recover, which gets me in trouble. Today, facing bots and one online player, I only did it once, which is an improvement. It's just finding different ways to get back on-stage since it's not easy for Zelda to do so.
Well, at least you watch ven and know who he is. That's a start. He's a good example to go by, and uses Phantom kind of in the way I tried to preach. He's also a fair mix in that he isn't campy and neither is he, well, me.

This is a move I have a hard time landing. I always get punished whenever I try to do it. I usually try to do it when I'm landing. Maybe it's the timing I can't get down? I'm not too sure.

This is another move I'm inconsistent with landing. I'm good with landing it under platforms and sometimes when they're in the air, but it's another hard move for me to consistently execute. I'll try the move you suggested.

This is something new to me so I'll try to look stuff up and see how I can incorporate that.

I felt like in these matches the nerves really got to my head. I honestly forgot that I had effective tools like those. Like I said earlier, I have them decently incorporated into my game, but I'm still struggling to land U-tilt consistently. I'm gonna try to work on landing D-tilt more often as well. Despite its hitbox, it seems useful for grabs, aerials, and other follow-ups.
Not to brag, but I think you should check some of my matches. I'm telling you this, because it's a lot of what I do and kind of works for me. I don't always have a clear-cut way of playing a matchup where protocol would dictate you're "out of options" against a character (i.e Chrom), which is why I just tend to wing it and play with a lot of mixups. You'll see that while I'm no professional player, I get out fine. I get hit a fair bit, but I feel I make up for it by making my trades count and maybe a couple decent reads.

A lot of the stuff is also stuff I kept reminding myself to do, like over a month ago. I have a whole thread dedicated to notes on my progress.

Off-camera, I do decently landing the first two OoS - the LK's pretty well, Up-B's okay. Hopefully whenever I record next (which will hopefully be tomorrow or Wednesday), I can show better examples of using those (thought I shouldn't expect it to be perfect). Aside from using it when my opponent is above me, I'm still trying to figure out the best uses for U-Smash.

Thanks so much for taking the time you needed to give me the advice. I apologize if I seemed a bit impatient in the matter, particularly in trying to figure out what you meant on my profile. I appreciate the feedback, and hope I can fix what you told me to fix to better improve my game. I also apologize for the incredibly long post lol. I wanted to make sure I covered all bases on what stood out to me from your feedback.
nuttin' to apologise about. I did it because I offered to in the first place. There was no obligation, but I didn't want to say I would do something and not follow through.

I'll try not to give you a hard time, if you say this is your first Smash game.
 
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Aussie1024

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Not to brag, but I think you should check some of my matches
Actually, it's been something I've meant to do but never got around to doing it. Plus you seem like one who has a good grip on what Zelda can do. I'll see what I can observe from watching you. Probably should take some notes as well. Might need to do the same for Ven as well.

I'll try not to give you a hard time, if you say this is your first Smash game.
Whoops. I apologize if I may have phrased it wrong. This is actually my third Smash game. I started with Brawl the summer following its release. I should have been clearer on that. This is the first Smash game that I really wanna learn to improve as a player. This includes using my character's whole kit appropriately, as well as reading my opponents and punishing their mistakes. It's a steep learning curve for me. It feels overwhelming because I'm thinking about everything I'm learning on here while trying to play. It can result in some bad decisions and inputs on the battlefield. It can leave me frustrated at times. I'm going thru some tough growing pains in learning how to think while playing. It's a process. I hope with time and effort I can get better at all this.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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If you want to play more competitively, you should look up something along the lines of discord serevers. That way, you find actual competent people to play against, and they might even help you out with advice.

With that said, I don't think I've seen any real disadvantage aerial state, either from you or against your opponents. Like, how you land and stuff. This becomes a lot more noticeable against people that actually start chasing you.
 

Aussie1024

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I am on the Discord servers for my mains. I've interacted with them a little bit (namely the Zelda one), but I've meant to use the servers more as a tool to improve. I hope to post some of my stuff on there and get feedback as well.

I've been focusing a lot more on how I land too, especially given how tricky it is for Zelda in the air. It's kinda like my game as a whole at the moment - working on it and trying to improve with it.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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S StoicPhantom I think like 80% of my kills in these videos came off of D-Tilt > Kick. My friend knows I'm going for it, and he even mashes out with airdodge out of most combos. He also uses Kirby (in a pretty damn annoying matter, at that), so you might see where we go wrong and vice-versa.

Ignore Dash Attack, I'm just clinically stupid.

 

StoicPhantom

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Been thinking about uploading some stuff for a while, so I'm going to put some stuff here. It ended up being more than I intended, so watch at your leisure or don't at all.

Marth
This one shows a rudimentary form of lower phantom charge spacing, since Oz was interested. It's rudimentary, but does showcase it's possible to use them as a pseudo sword. Needs more refinement, so I'm not taking running Nairs to the face. Also some of those went past the 5 minute mark, so the quality might be poor.

Palutena
This is more just to show that this MU is more even than it first appears. Palu's light as well, so Zelda can end those stocks pretty early.

Fox
Similar case as the Palutena one. This isn't the fastest Fox I've played, but should still showcase this isn't as disproportionate as it first appears. Fox is lighter than I first thought.

Corrin
If you're going to watch any of these, it should be this one. This is my favorite set in Ultimate so far and really showcases what both of these characters can do. I meant to trim this set down, but this Corrin was so good and every one of these was amazing and I just couldn't choose, so think of this as Grand Finals or something lol. It was so intense, I kept losing track of our percentage, so kept missing those Dair combos, due to having too much rage, most of the time.

S StoicPhantom I think like 80% of my kills in these videos came off of D-Tilt > Kick. My friend knows I'm going for it, and he even mashes out with airdodge out of most combos. He also uses Kirby (in a pretty damn annoying matter, at that), so you might see where we go wrong and vice-versa.
I see what you were saying now. I guess I underestimated the hit stun on D-Tilt and never even bothered attempting it at those percents. Mimicking those scenarios, made it easier to get a feel for the timing and spacing, so thanks for showing me that. I'm still not convinced those are true or would work on a faster character with good DI, but they are close enough to be relevant. Of course actually landing D-Tilt in a match is still a little difficult for me, so I'll have to work on that. I can still pull them off in training reasonably well, so this might be a boon to Zelda's meta, if it pans out.

As for the Kirby MU, your matches played out about how mine do, so it's not just me. Even supposedly being one of the worst characters, those aerials are difficult to get through, so it might just be a Zelda MU thing.
 

Aussie1024

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Thanks for uploading these S StoicPhantom . I'll check them out and see what I can learn. I might post my thoughts from them on here. Anything that could help either of us improve. Idk if I can contribute in seeing what you can work on since I struggle at giving advice with that kind of stuff, but I can help however possible.

@Oz I'll give my thoughts on the battles you posted a while ago. I apologize that I haven't gotten around to watching your matches. Life has been kinda hectic lately. I needed a little break from Ultimate as well.

EDIT - 2/14/19
Hey S StoicPhantom , I was able to watch your battles. Nice job! You really helped me to see what you were talking about when critiquing my videos a few weeks ago. What I could see from your videos is you knew how to use Phantom strategically. If they were going for a jump or you were off-stage? You went stage 3. When you were a far distance and needed a way to get in? Or if you needed to bait them into a mistake from afar? You used the full Phantom. And you never panicked and let it go once it reached full-stage when it wasn't necessary.

You also seemed to show no fear when going in racking up damage. You seemed to have a good understanding of the hitboxes of u-tilt and were able to get some decent follow-ups on it. You did a great job landing her aerials too, specifically uair and dair.

Watching these matches just makes me rack my brain and think how I can learn from them. I played some matches last night and overall felt scared. I felt like I forced out Phantom and made it predictable to come out. I struggled with landing aerials too. I don't think I landed one sweetspot LK (and I only used it 2-3 times in those matches, which were about 7-8). I feel like I've gotten progressively worse at landing them because I'm thinking about many other variables for how to use her efficiently. For the life of me, dair is so hard to land and it's difficult to incorporate it into my kit. It's even worse when I'm playing afraid.

I apologize if I sound like I'm ranting, but I hated how I played yesterday. You cannot play scared in Smash. It's inevitable for you to mess up, especially for a zoner like Zelda. It reared its ugly head on more than one occasion while playing last night. I guess I have two main questions out of this. First, how do you safely land that Up-Tilt? You seemed to really know how to land it effectively and it led to good combos too. Second, how are you able to land the uair and dair with consistency? Those are two moves I really struggle to land with her. Idk how to ask about the LK's. I guess me playing scared and trying to get a grip on becoming a smarter player has something to do with that. I land them pretty well when I'm composed.

Again, I'm sorry for making myself the focus concerning the product of watching your videos. From watching how you used her effectively, I can't help but stare at a blank drawing board just thinking how I can learn from that, especially given how scared I've been playing and I'm trying to learn how to become a smarter player. I end up overcomplicating things and play worse than I should.
 
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StoicPhantom

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EDIT - 2/14/19
Hey S StoicPhantom , I was able to watch your battles. Nice job! You really helped me to see what you were talking about when critiquing my videos a few weeks ago.
Thanks for all the praise. I'm glad those were of use. I feel I should mention something I noticed about those videos. There were several times, where I seemingly B-Reversed Phantom for no real benefit. B-Reversing Phantom can be useful for covering the area behind you, to counter opponents covering high, among other things. However, most of those in the videos are not optimal use. My sticks are going, with the left drifting and the right, completely sticking to the right, if I flick it that way.

That leads to weird things like accidental B-Reversing or walking instead of dashing. If I flick the right too hard and forget to manually reset it, I can't attack at all. I'm going to need to replace them soon, but I'm chronically lazy, so am procrastinating right now.

As for your questions, the short version is practice. Those moves are better as punishes, so get used to setting up situations, that lead to that. Up-Tilt is long lasting, so practice and experience is going to be needed to understand how to hit from all angles and situations. Understand your opponents weakness and character, that will help you land those moves. I tucked the long version in that spoiler, but be warned, I outdid myself. So if you plan on reading it, grab your favorite beverage and/or snack or whatever lol.

We all have our bad days, so don't get too bent out of shape over it. I haven't slept particularly well these past couple nights and my play reflected that today and yesterday. I got bent out of shape for losing a Snake MU yesterday, which is rare for me. In hindsight it was silly and I played him again today and went even, only losing the set on an Up-B whiff. Just think of it as an isolated incident, because you will almost always play better the next day.

Long version
I think a change in perspective and mindset might be a good start. Don't think of space as a direct line between you and your opponent, rather think of it like a grid or sphere that spans the entire stage. Start thinking in terms of trying to maneuver both you and your opponent in that space. That doesn't mean you have to consider every potential possibility at every position on the stage, just think of the area around you and your opponent.

How that area appears is going to depend on what options you and your opponent have at any given point. What options you have is determined by the context of the current situation and your character. Your goal here is to limit your opponents options, not hit them. Once you limit their options, you can predict their next move easier and that will make landing those moves easier as well.

So for example, Ganondorf is slow in the air and is large, so his options are limited. He can't air-dodge since it is laggy and easy to punish and he can't DI given how slow his mobility is. His only real option high above the stage, is to land with an attack or hope he can air-dodge and DI away. That's when Up-air can come into play, being that it is heavily disjointed, it can beat out his attempts to attack with Wizard's Foot or Dair. You then have a 50-50 whether he is going to air-dodge or attack.

In other words limiting your opponents options and reading their moves or punishing any whiffs, is the key to landing those attacks. Zelda's got a weird style going, where a lot of her attacks have properties and qualities, that make timing and landing things awkward. Rather than throwing them out hoping for a hit, manipulating your opponent into those attacks is what you need to be doing. Her kit is largely made of precise KO options, so making your opponent whiff or putting them in a situation where they have limited options is key.

That is why a lot of people struggle with Zelda, because her style is different than what is normal. I see a lot of "She needs a spacing Fair like Palutena" but honestly that is just a misunderstanding of how she functions. I know you have a character background that is the polar opposite of Zelda's, so you need to invert your usual approach to landing attacks.

Treat those attacks like punishes, instead of normal aerials. Even if they have quick frame data, they have hitboxs that work better as punish tools. DI is going to be your biggest enemy, so making your opponent do any action that limits that is important. Rather than trying to tag them with Up-air, catch their jumps or air-dodges with it instead. If you're platform pressuring them with Up-Tilt, then their only real option is jump. If you can read when and where, you can catch them with the massive hitbox on Up-air. Similar story if you can bait an air-dodge.

In other words they are the follow up to a setup, not necessarily moves used in isolation. Up-Tilt can lead into Up-air, shield can bait a dash grab, that can lead into full hop Dair, reading an Fsmash can lead into full hop fast fall LK. You need to use space to pressure and setup, not spam Fair/Nair and try to get a hit, like a lot of other characters. Use the threat of landing one of Zelda's powerful options to scare your opponent, into a situation where you actually can land one of those options. She thrives off of pressure and mind games.

As you have noticed I don't spam Phantom mindlessly. Each one has a purpose and they all manipulate the opponent in some way. The goal with it is to use Phantom as the setup to landing those options. If not in the next move, in the next two or three. Even if I don't hit my opponent with it, it can lead into something else that leads into a hit.

That last match in the Marth set, illustrates what I'm talking about. The first stock was taken by my Dair, the next stock he went lower to avoid, but he couldn't snap to the ledge from that distance. He has to Up-B slightly above the ledge, in order to fall and grab the ledge. I then applied the same principle with my own and KOed him, while falling to the ledge. The Dair kills and if the Dair doesn't, it sets up the Up-B which does. He was so frazzled after that, that simply Up-Bing as he was going to edgeguard, caused him to panic and fast fall, which claimed the final stock.

That is how you want to play Zelda and part of why she is such a difficult character. You need to pressure with space and mind games, which can setup into those difficult to hit moves. Phantom, Up-Tilt, Nair, Jab, and D-Tilt are your main neutral tools, the rest are going to be best as a read or punish. Think about the opposing characters options and weaknesses, then use those tools to put him in a position, that best exploits those weaknesses.

The rest is simply practice. Bop into training and get a feel for the spacing. Pick a stage that has your opponent starting on a platform and experiment with hitting Up-air from different angles and feel out the maximum range on all sides. Pick the training stage and space the LK, roughly one background square away from the cpu. Experiment with different distances within that, both closer and farther from the cpu and feel out the minimum and maximum range. Try landing Dair from different distances, solely using DI, to get used to using subtle movements to space it. You want to hit directly above the opponent, to land the sweet-spot.

Up-Tilt is a bit of an odd move to use. It's like Marth's, but slower with less range. This move actually has quite a lot of uses and covers a lot situations, from juggling to roll punishing, but it is probably one of her most difficult moves to fully master. What you're going to want to do, is understand the timing of every point in the arc. The startup can work as a juggle starter, if the opponent lands or whiffs an attack in front of you. Keep Zelda facing the opponent, to hit with the start. The upper portion is good for anti-air and platform pressuring. There is a bit of a delay, before it reaches the top, so get used to starting it up, a little before you actually need to hit.

The back of the move can hit opponents trying to hit you from behind or catch rolls. Some rolls cover too much distance to catch them. Can be used in conjunction with Phantom to ledge trap, by covering platforming landing and rolls, at the same time. Obviously has the greatest delay, so is the most difficult. Up-Tilt just takes a lot of practice and experience to use, so get familiar with the time and grind as many neutrals as possible.
 

Aussie1024

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I didn't even know you were doing the reverse Phantom intentionally. I thought that was an incorrect input. That's really smart though. I never thought of that before.

It looks like it takes plenty of practice to learn moves like that to your utmost advantage. I myself have tried using those moves in particular (U-tilt, uair, and dair) as trying to start something rather than situationally as a punish. It often leads to forcing it which is an absolute no-no. This is before looking at your long version, which I will talk about later.

I apologize if I sounded frustrated last night. That was the case because I find myself either letting fear or anxiety get the better of me when fighting often. I documented the anxiety when I uploaded my videos. For some reason, I end up getting scared because I try to figure out apply what I'm learning into a battle and end up afraid of what to do in certain situations. It makes me forget what moves I have and how to use them, kinda like my anxiety. I don't remember if I went into detail about my anxiety when I posted those matches, but if not, there it is.

Now, I've gone thru your spoiler section, and let me just say this before I dive into it - I appreciate you putting in the time to give me this in-depth of a response. I can't say that enough.

Don't think of space as a direct line between you and your opponent, rather think of it like a grid or sphere that spans the entire stage. Start thinking in terms of trying to maneuver both you and your opponent in that space.
I like that way of looking at it. I've been thinking of trying to space myself better on the battlefield, and I kept trying to relate that on the ground. I need to start thinking of how to space myself in the air better as well. I make that mistake very often. Spacing is more than on the ground.

Your goal here is to limit your opponents options, not hit them.
I gotcha. This will probably come with understanding how to fight each character and how to bait and punish as Zelda. I don't have a good understanding of how most fighters work in terms of their specific attributes (fall speed, air dodging ability, etc.). Is there a cohesive place where I could learn that kind of info? Or would that come with experience and picking up on stuff?

Zelda's got a weird style going, where a lot of her attacks have properties and qualities, that make timing and landing things awkward. Rather than throwing them out hoping for a hit, manipulating your opponent into those attacks is what you need to be doing. Her kit is largely made of precise KO options, so making your opponent whiff or putting them in a situation where they have limited options is key.
I can say without a doubt that more often than not, I just throw out moves to see how they work, rather than using it strategically. Even when I try to play defensive like she is how to be played, I end up whiffing an attack because Idk how to place it well. You said a little later in this post that I have a character background that is the polar opposite of how Zelda plays in this game. It's more about watching what my opponent is doing and countering that. I'm still learning how to pay attention to my opponent and see what he does first. It's quite the hill to climb for me, but I hope it'll come with practice.

Rather than trying to tag them with Up-air, catch their jumps or air-dodges with it instead.
I catch myself chasing uair's very often, instead of looking for the right situation to use it. That's probably why I'm frequently whiffing them. Getting that perspective is great, thanks. Now it's about training and catching the best spots to use it. Easier said than done, though.

She thrives off of pressure and mind games.
That's what I noticed from watching players like yourself and Ven. At her best, she pressures opponents into making silly mistakes with which she can punish with deadly attacks. Her pressure with Phantom and knowledge of the opponent really helps out. It's gonna take some time to really get a hang of a character who does that, but hopefully the right amount and type of practice will assist with that.

As you have noticed I don't spam Phantom mindlessly.
Yup I did notice, and it was very well-executed. I panic so hard when put in a bad situation and just use it without a gameplan. I still struggle when it comes to watching my opponent like I said before, so paying attention to them and learning which stages of Phantom work best with what situation will take some reps.

Phantom, Up-Tilt, Nair, Jab, and D-Tilt are your main neutral tools, the rest are going to be best as a read or punish
Breaking it down like that helps, thanks. Obviously there's more strategy than that but seeing that broken down really helps. Still working to land d-tilt, but it's a work in progress.

The rest is simply practice. Bop into training and get a feel for the spacing.
This response doesn't justify the whole paragraph, but thanks for that trip in general. I don't use training mode enough. More often than not I hop into battles trying to learn what I've learned on here without practicing and just get demolished. It's gotta become my best friend.

There is a bit of a delay, before it reaches the top, so get used to starting it up, a little before you actually need to hit.
That helps a lot, thank you. There were often times where I approached my opponent well, tried using it, and it didn't hit. Maybe starting it up a bit sooner could help.

Up-Tilt just takes a lot of practice and experience to use, so get familiar with the time and grind as many neutrals as possible.
Yeah, it seems like a move that requires much reps and trial-and-error for you to really understand it. Is that what you meant by when you said, "grind as many neutrals as possible"?

I apologize for the long post. I wanted to give you a solid amount of feedback about this post. You put a lot of time into this, and I wanted to show my appreciation for it. I'm also trying to constructively learn to become a smarter player, and I think using Zelda is helping me. I hope by practicing, posting more videos, and getting continual feedback from people on here that it can grow me. Again, thank you so much for this extensive feedback. I very much appreciate it.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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zomg actual tournament footage


When you realise you made Winner Semis...

Yeah, all half of them sucked. When you drop literally everything.

Welcome to tournament nerves. Enjoy flopping everything you practiced for.
 

StoicPhantom

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I didn't even know you were doing the reverse Phantom intentionally. I thought that was an incorrect input. That's really smart though. I never thought of that before.
I meant that it is an optimal thing to do in some situations, but not most of those in the videos. Those were a result of a failing analog stick, not something that should be considered optimal in those specific situations. I was rather tired when I made that post, so there are a lot of things that are vague or I forgot to mention.

I apologize if I sounded frustrated last night. That was the case because I find myself either letting fear or anxiety get the better of me when fighting often.
Try getting up and taking a walk for a few minutes if possible, while thinking about specific in match situations that you were having trouble with. You don't necessarily need to come up with an answer, the mere act should help refocus your mind. You need to have as clear of a head as possible, to properly space with Zelda and playing in general.

In match specifically, instead of worrying about whether you're going to be hit or not, try just charging ahead, when you're playing a friendly or online match. I don't mean mindlessly spamming dash attack, I mean when you are thinking about punishing or challenging an attack, but are not sure if you can. You'll either hit or get hit and if you get hit, just stay calm and try resetting to neutral. Do this enough times, with a variety of different moves and you will eventually get a feel for timing or safety and hopefully boost your confidence. Once you get used to the timing and range of Zelda's moves and realize it's not the end of the world if you get hit, then you will be able to stay strong in the face of pressure better.

I like that way of looking at it. I've been thinking of trying to space myself better on the battlefield, and I kept trying to relate that on the ground. I need to start thinking of how to space myself in the air better as well. I make that mistake very often. Spacing is more than on the ground.
It might be helpful to simplify it to a wall at the beginning. Think of a giant wall between you and your opponent and keep pushing that wall towards your opponent. Try to avoid unnecessarily moving backwards and move forwards if your opponent does. Anytime your opponent moves back, move up the equivalent amount he moved back and hold that line as much as possible. Eventually you will start being able to see and feel space and can apply that to other areas.

Once that happens, it will become more clear which of Zelda's moves go where.

Is there a cohesive place where I could learn that kind of info? Or would that come with experience and picking up on stuff?
Both. Most of the character forums should have a topic with that info, like our own, and if you search for KuroganeHammer in a search engine of your choice, I think that will bring up their data compilations. I'm not much of a data guy, so I don't know exactly where it is, but if you are having trouble finding it, they are a user on this site, so you can message them about it.

By itself it's meaningless, since we don't really think in numbers while actually fighting, so you are going to need experience. You need to build memory and visual judgement, for that to be of any real use. Once you get a general feel of how quick something is, you can dive more into the details about specific moves and situations. If you need to know if you can punish a certain move with a certain one of your own, that is when that data will come in handy. You need a mix of both, in order to grasp the bigger picture and apply that data knowledge.

You said a little later in this post that I have a character background that is the polar opposite of how Zelda plays in this game. It's more about watching what my opponent is doing and countering that. I'm still learning how to pay attention to my opponent and see what he does first. It's quite the hill to climb for me, but I hope it'll come with practice.
Indeed, you're probably used to having fairly safe pokes and setups. Zelda being a laggier ZSS isn't too inaccurate of a description, if a bit broad. ZSS also has a lot of small and precise hitboxs, just had the safety to spam them. Rather than pressuring them by overwhelming them with safe attacks, you will need to pressure them with space and fear of being hit. They're not too different in the overall game plan, just the method of pressuring is different. If Smash 4 ZSS had a general style of dancing around the opponent looking for that one hit, Zelda has a similar one of intimidating with the fear of her hitboxs and conditioning her opponent to avoid them.

So think of Zelda as similar to ZSS, but what she uses to space and condition is different. ZSS forced people into an ever decreasing little ball of space, until they were forced to move out of shield, where she could punish. Zelda is a similar case, where she needs to use Phantom and other tools to continuously force opponents in an ever decreasing space bubble. It starts a feedback loop where the smaller the space to work with, the more potent Zelda's spacing tools. Both have lacking neutrals that they need to win once and then do a lot of damage in that time.

Yeah, it seems like a move that requires much reps and trial-and-error for you to really understand it. Is that what you meant by when you said, "grind as many neutrals as possible"?
Pretty much. The timing and positioning, varies from move to move. Some, will need to hit with different angles of Up-Tilt or needing to position Zelda herself a certain way. Others, may require hitting from a certain angle and have you hitting the back of Up-Tilt. There is a lot of nuance to the move and I myself am still figuring out more applications to even characters I'm very used to fighting. That's what I mean by grinding neutrals, playing against as many different character and player neutrals as possible, in order to learn counters to every relevant neutral tool with Up-Tilt.

I apologize for the long post. I wanted to give you a solid amount of feedback about this post. You put a lot of time into this, and I wanted to show my appreciation for it. I'm also trying to constructively learn to become a smarter player, and I think using Zelda is helping me. I hope by practicing, posting more videos, and getting continual feedback from people on here that it can grow me. Again, thank you so much for this extensive feedback. I very much appreciate it.
No problem, just keep at it, there is definitely a learning curve.
 

Aussie1024

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zomg actual tournament footage


When you realise you made Winner Semis...

Yeah, all half of them sucked. When you drop literally everything.

Welcome to tournament nerves. Enjoy flopping everything you practiced for.
Good games though dude. Impressive stuff. I know you aren't happy with the result you got, but watching them honestly is helping me gain a better understanding of using her moves effectively. I still wanna play a defensive, zoning game with her that baits opponents into making mistakes, but this footage helps me comprehend her kit better. Thank you my friend.

I meant that it is an optimal thing to do in some situations, but not most of those in the videos.
I understand. Sorry I meant to say it seems like a good strategy to use for her.

Try getting up and taking a walk for a few minutes if possible, while thinking about specific in match situations that you were having trouble with. You don't necessarily need to come up with an answer, the mere act should help refocus your mind. You need to have as clear of a head as possible, to properly space with Zelda and playing in general.
I'm definitely learning you need a clear head to play a character like Zelda well. You have to pay attention to every move your opponent makes, and use her moves that can take advantage of whatever mistakes they make. Whenever I use her, my mind is going like crazy because I feel like I need to execute everything to a tee, which is impossible of course because I'm human. I need to keep my head clear and not put so much pressure on myself. Just enjoy the game, have fun, and continue to find ways to improve. I might also start saving replays so I can playback and watch what I did wrong.

It might be helpful to simplify it to a wall at the beginning. Think of a giant wall between you and your opponent and keep pushing that wall towards your opponent.
That makes sense. As I get a hands-on feel for it, I think I'll come to understand it better and start recognizing space easier and getting a feel for how Zelda's moves apply to that.

By itself it's meaningless, since we don't really think in numbers while actually fighting, so you are going to need experience.
That's what I thought. For me at least, I can't take numbers and suddenly transition it onto the battlefield where you know your opponent's weaknesses just because of a supposed numerical advantage. It takes several battles against a character and learning what makes them tick, and also what shortcomings you can use to gain the upper hand.

Indeed, you're probably used to having fairly safe pokes and setups. Zelda being a laggier ZSS isn't too inaccurate of a description, if a bit broad.
This is true. Sonic, Pikachu, and ZSS have safe moves to use that are much safer to use and won't get you as heavily punished as Zelda if you whiff them and don't use them strategically. You aren't wrong when you make that comparison at all. ZSS has some hitboxes that are difficult to land, but her ability to create space for herself with her speed makes it easier for her to make up for whiffing. Of course, landing the moves would help, but you know what I mean. They are both similar to each other, but their ways of spacing differ so various strategies have to take place. This is why I feel I struggle at times with Zelda - I make the mistake of thinking of her as a ZSS or Sonic who can run up and punish whenever she wants, but it's the opposite. It's more so making sure I don't mistake one character's play style for another, but will take reps of course.

That's what I mean by grinding neutrals, playing against as many different character and player neutrals as possible, in order to learn counters to every relevant neutral tool with Up-Tilt.
Thanks. Bots and training mode are great tool to use, but an even better way of getting accustomed to it is playing online and getting a feel for how I could use it to counter humans. I feel like that's where the best experience comes from. Not the previous one doesn't, but playing against humans is where you really get experience doing that.

No problem, just keep at it, there is definitely a learning curve.
Definitely. It all comes with practice - training mode, playing people offline or online, and gaining reps in other ways. Then there is coming on here, interacting with you guys, posting videos and listening to feedback, watching people's videos, giving them feedback and asking questions. It's all a process.
 

StoicPhantom

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zomg actual tournament footage
Good stuff, you may have whiffed a lot, but your spacing and neutral were tighter and more consistent than before. I like how you kept calm, even when losing a stock early. Zelda's come back factor is pretty good and you didn't falter or have those unfortunate happenings affect your play. I'll give my thoughts on the individual matches below.

Megaman

You did pretty well on the Megaman one and I liked you using his own move, to setup that LK at the end. You seemed to have a little difficulty getting through those projectiles, when he was camping at the ledge and better Megaman players will use Leaf Shield, which is difficult to break through. Try using Phantom when he is camping at the ledge.

Inkling

You did well spiking those Inkling recoveries. That is not an easy move to do that on, especially landing the sweet-spot. When he is spamming grenades at the ledge, try Up-Bing into him or reflecting them back, instead of trying to beat them. You can make it through recovering low, but messing up the timing will cause an early stock. I think if you had jumped and quickly Up-Bed into him, you would not have lost that stock. Roller is still the most brainless thing, but otherwise he didn't have much on you.

Young Link

This match was a good example of you keeping your composure and Zelda's comeback factor. Even though you lost a stock pretty early, you kept calm and your play didn't seem to waver or suffer, which led to you clutching out the win. Be careful with those Up-Tilt combos, they aren't as true as we originally thought and some characters can break out after the first hit. Other than some minor nitpicks, like that Dair->LK whiff would have gone better as Dair->Up-Smash(0:52), I think you did well overall. That beautifully executed Up-air at the end, was a good example of how your spacing has improved.

Take note of this Aussie1024 Aussie1024 that is a good example of how you can land Up-air, by manipulating your opponent with space(2:57). Notice how Oz delayed his second jump to gauge what option the opponent was going to choose. That signaled to his opponent that he can cover fast fall to the ledge and made his opponent jump. That led to Oz catching him at the very end of his jump, when he had no more options. That's how you can potentially use Up-air.

Donkey Kong

You seemed to struggle quite a lot getting back on stage. Donkey Kong covers a lot of space, with little commitment, so it is difficult for Zelda to get back on stage. Try using Phantom off stage, like I do a lot in my videos. It can be a little tricky, but if you space it just right, you can have it cover you without your opponent being able to chase you. Do it so you can release it, if it looks like they are coming after you, but will still cover your getup. That will be quite helpful, in these type of MUs.

I see you whiffing Nair out of Up-Tilt sometimes. Try using Up-air instead, on characters with fast jumps and aerial mobility like DK. The first DK match, was an example of you losing your composure a little and getting too fishy. Zelda is very good in those last hit last stock situations, so you can afford to be a little more patient.

Ridley

I'm guessing this is what finally did you in. Ridley is a difficult MU, basically a sword character stacked onto a heavy with a ridiculous projectile, so it's no surprise. Phantom might be helpful here, given Ridley's oppressive neutral, but his Side-B can punish Phantom attempts, so use it wisely. At the very least, use it when he is landing or getting up, since that Nair is ridiculous. You also need to be more varied off stage. Losing ledge invincibility is a good time to use your jumps and try to Up-B into him or other options, instead of getting Dsmashed like with what happened to your last stock, in the first match. You can use Phantom and Din's as well, so struggle a little harder than you did.

I think what really hurt, was taking so much damage recovering. I can't remember if you can Up-B through Castle Siege's platforms or not, but if you can you should Up-B into him. Otherwise, you are going to need to delay your Up-B a little more. I feel like you try to beat projectiles too much with it, so be a little more patient. Zelda is floaty and Up-B has a lot of distance, so you can hang around off stage a little. Time your Up-B towards the end of his projectile salvo and take advantage of the delay between salvos. He can't kill very easily if you minimize the damage you take.


All in all, a very solid showing. You were arguably the best player in those vids and with a few tweaks, I think you can make top 3 consistently. That Ridley player was good, but that MU isn't very even, so I think you are about equal or better in skill level. You seemed to be one of the few, who didn't use a secondary, which goes to show how well rounded Zelda is and your experience in multiple MUs with her. You struggled a bit in the DK and Ridley matches, but I think with those tips I mentioned, you won't have many problems next time.
 
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That Ridley player was good, but that MU isn't very even, so I think you are about equal or better in skill level. You seemed to be one of the few, who didn't use a secondary, which goes to show how well rounded Zelda is and your experience in multiple MUs with her. You struggled a bit in the DK and Ridley matches, but I think with those tips I mentioned, you won't have many problems next time.
I don't think the matchup is that bad. Yeah, I also basically thought of him as a sword of sword character, given the range. But he's also kind of slow, and I don't tend to struggle too much against actual sword characters (i.e Lucina). Not to mention, wouldn't he have larger hurtboxes to go with it?

That said, I feel fairly confident against Paco. The first time I played him about three weeks ago in bracket, the set was a lot tighter 2-1 and I lost by killing myself twice on the last match. I did really well against him friendlies, so there's also that (if it counts or not). I notice some of his habits like randomly spotdodging when I approach, which is something I struggled to capitalise on my actual set. Looks I also flopped a fundamental D-Air > Kick that could've been the 2nd game for me.

Regardless, I'm not going to put excuses on why I lost. I'll try to be better next time. Thanks.

Take note of this Aussie1024 Aussie1024 that is a good example of how you can land Up-air, by manipulating your opponent with space(2:57). Notice how Oz delayed his second jump to gauge what option the opponent was going to choose. That signaled to his opponent that he can cover fast fall to the ledge and made his opponent jump. That led to Oz catching him at the very end of his jump, when he had no more options. That's how you can potentially use Up-air.
I literally just read his jump.

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Aussie1024

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Take note of this Aussie1024 Aussie1024 Aussie1024 Aussie1024 that is a good example of how you can land Up-air, by manipulating your opponent with space(2:57). Notice how Oz delayed his second jump to gauge what option the opponent was going to choose. That signaled to his opponent that he can cover fast fall to the ledge and made his opponent jump. That led to Oz catching him at the very end of his jump, when he had no more options. That's how you can potentially use Up-air.
Thanks for mentioning me in that and pointing that out. I watched that part specifically over quite a number of times yesterday to figure out how I can apply that to my game. I couldn't really put my finger on it. I'm not particularly good at analyzing matches since everything happens so fast and I'm still learning how to pick out those little things like you did. I was practicing the up-air angles Friday night like you mentioned to me, and I'm starting to feel it a bit better. Now it's learning to do stuff like what Oz was able to do in that finishing KO (along with more practice lol). It'll come with reps and many online battles, as most things in learning mechanics in this game require.

I literally just read his jump.
LOL. He said that because we've been talking about using up-air in better situations because I keep whiffing them. I'm trying to learn how to use her moves off reading what people do (and reading opponents in general).
 
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StoicPhantom

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I don't think the matchup is that bad. Yeah, I also basically thought of him as a sword of sword character, given the range. But he's also kind of slow, and I don't tend to struggle too much against actual sword characters (i.e Lucina). Not to mention, wouldn't he have larger hurtboxes to go with it?
Yeah he will have a larger hurtbox, but the trade off is being fast, both in movement speed and frame data. Heavys in general have gotten faster and I think are a tad overtuned, for their power and weight. Adding a sword on top of everything makes things even more skewed. That being said, I don't think there is too great of a difference, but Ridley is the stronger of the two and probably the most difficult heavy to fight as Zelda. It's still pretty doable, but there is a bit of an imbalance.

That said, I feel fairly confident against Paco. The first time I played him about three weeks ago in bracket, the set was a lot tighter 2-1 and I lost by killing myself twice on the last match. I did really well against him friendlies, so there's also that (if it counts or not). I notice some of his habits like randomly spotdodging when I approach, which is something I struggled to capitalise on my actual set. Looks I also flopped a fundamental D-Air > Kick that could've been the 2nd game for me.
I think that's a good example of the difference of an easy character like Ridley, versus a more difficult one like Zelda. Ridley being simple, means your play won't be degrading as much under pressure as a character like Zelda. That's probably why you did better in friendlies, you were able to bring out more of your potential in the absence of tournament nerves.

Regardless, I'm not going to put excuses on why I lost. I'll try to be better next time. Thanks.
No problem. You were definitely pretty close, despite all that I said above.

I literally just read his jump.
It's one of the best things about Zelda. They always think they can escape, not realizing Up-air isn't just an ordinary attack, it's an explosion and has a range befitting of that.
 

Aussie1024

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I think that's a good example of the difference of an easy character like Ridley, versus a more difficult one like Zelda. Ridley being simple, means your play won't be degrading as much under pressure as a character like Zelda.
This. So much. I hopped on and did some matches last night against fighters such as Ike, Pichu, DK, Cloud, and Lucina - characters that have simpler play styles that don't feel as tough to execute as Zelda. It's especially the case when I'm still learning a lot on reading opponents and such, which accentuates that pressure.

It's one of the best things about Zelda. They always think they can escape, not realizing Up-air isn't just an ordinary attack, it's an explosion and has a range befitting of that.
It surely is. It's a deceptive attack that can confuse players who don't see it coming. When you know where to place it and how to execute it, it's a devastating move.
 
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zomg actual tournament footage


When you realise you made Winner Semis...

Yeah, all half of them sucked. When you drop literally everything.

Welcome to tournament nerves. Enjoy flopping everything you practiced for.
Not bad. You play really well. Your fundies are really solid. Really good spacing too. Good job.

You need to ABUSE Phantom more to apply more pressure though, there were tons of times where had a solid chance to set him up, but didn't, and if you had, would have helped you out a ton with cleaner setups and such. That will help out your gameplan a lot more imo. Other than that, pretty good plays. Congrats on making it to winners semis.
 
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Not bad. You play really well. Your fundies are really solid. Really good spacing too. Good job.

You need to ABUSE Phantom more to apply more pressure though, there were tons of times where had a solid chance to set him up, but didn't, and if you had, would have helped you out a ton with cleaner setups and such. That will help out your gameplan a lot more imo. Other than that, pretty good plays. Congrats on making it to winners semis.
Some of the people here know I'm pretty much allergic to it... it's not that I don't want to, but I just don't see it being as cornerstone as most people thing, let alone in neutral. Most of the time, I'd rather do something more productive than trying to force an approach that won't likely happen against smarter players. Not only that, I just avoid projectiles and specials with most of the characters I've used before altogether. It's kind of not my style.

I would absolutely use it at the ledge, but I just suck at it. Most of the time I get nothing out of it, because I never really stapled down my setups.

Thank you for the compliment and the feedback, by the way.


I also completely owe that other guy feedback. I've had trouble just sitting down and watching all the matches.
 
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StoicPhantom

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This. So much. I hopped on and did some matches last night against fighters such as Ike, Pichu, DK, Cloud, and Lucina - characters that have simpler play styles that don't feel as tough to execute as Zelda. It's especially the case when I'm still learning a lot on reading opponents and such, which accentuates that pressure.
Ya. It is a little frustrating and depressing how easy her opponents can be, but that is the reality of playing a difficult character. Although, it feels like Ultimate's top tiers, are a little too easy sometimes.
 

Aussie1024

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Ya. It is a little frustrating and depressing how easy her opponents can be, but that is the reality of playing a difficult character. Although, it feels like Ultimate's top tiers, are a little too easy sometimes.
True that. You have to intricately think about every move you're making as Zelda because she's not a character who can easily punish her opponent. The player needs to have a good knowledge of her tools to know when and where to punish her opponent's mistakes. She doesn't have the speed to run up and punish opponents for a bad move. She requires patience and precision. Higher tier characters can punish with more ease because they are either faster than her or have punishing moves than can be executed safely. It could be a mix of both too.

On another note, I was finally able to get some recording done last night. I uploaded a compilation of a few matches I did. I feel like I could have played better, but I'm decently pleased with how I played. I'm kicking myself over the aggressive Farore's I did, and I felt like I wasn't as composed as I could have been. Nerves didn't affect me as much this time. I just don't believe the composure was there. I played some matches Thursday night with her, felt composed, and won most of my matches (save for a DK, but it could have gone either way, so I'm at least pleased with that considering how much I struggle against him). Idk what it is tbh.

Let me know what you guys think! I'm gonna be at a friend's house over the weekend starting today, so I might be a bit slow getting back to anyone. Just letting you know ahead of time. Thanks guys!

https://youtu.be/HDKLw5hxffM
 
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StoicPhantom

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Let me know what you guys think! I'm gonna be at a friend's house over the weekend starting today, so I might be a bit slow getting back to anyone. Just letting you know ahead of time. Thanks guys!
Bit late on this, had a backlog of things I needed to respond to and this post is a bit of a whopper. So pay me back in kind and read this at your own pace and leisure.

Since it's longer than like the last five posts combined, I'm going to stick the responses in spoilers.

Toon Link
The biggest problem here, was stage control. You let him control too much of it and sometimes you retreated when it wasn't necessary or didn't move up when you could. If there is a wide amount of space between you, it is ok to move up carefully, while being ready for any projectiles or advances. If you give him too much stage, he will wall you out with projectiles like he did. It's ok to keep a healthy distance, but you kept too much.

You also need to edgeguard more. Ledge trapping with Phantom is a good option, but against Toon Link, it would have been better to insure he doesn't make it back to the ledge. And you also did it too early in most cases, in the first place.

What you want to do, is pay attention to the height and distance, relative to the ledge. If he is far and above the ledge, move up to the ledge and snipe with Phantom, before he can drop below. If he is really far and above the ledge(corner), Din's Fire will at least force an air-dodge, if not outright KO. If he is far and below the ledge, plant Din's Fire in his path. If he is close and below the ledge, go off and Dair him. I know it isn't easy to spike with Dair, but all Links have a blind spot above them and a linear recovery. Only go for the ledge trap, if you are too far from the ledge, or if a character is too fast to edgeguard.

There were also times you had your back to the ledge and managed to get a grab or frame advantage from a shield, but hit him back onstage.
When that happens, try back throwing him. Even if you don't KO him, it setups an edgeguard situation. That Up throw in particular(3:17), would not have gotten a KO at that percent, but a back throw might've.

You had the right idea, trying to follow up a parry with Bair(1:03), but didn't have the correct spacing(too close). Pay attention to the distance in those situations and if you are too close, you need to follow up with a different option. He was at too high of percent to Up-B, but a turnaround grab->back throw or Fsmash, would have been better. Good on you reacting and attempting to follow up, though.

Otherwise, I think you played rather patient. It can be pretty frustrating, playing a Link on a flat stage, especially one that campy. More impatient Zeldas, would have mindlessly rushed in and gotten clobbered. Being patient and not letting frustration cloud your judgement, is a very important step to being good with Zelda and in general.

And you did show some strategy with Phantom and are really improving with it and were more proactive in general in the second half. Especially pressuring with Dair, when he tried to shield. You should mix that up with grab or empty dash dance, since he can survive with a full shield, if you Dair after the Phantom(do it before). Since he did have a thing for jumping OoS, that was still the correct option and you did get some nice combos, so that tip is for further down the road.

That Up-air was also good. He made the foolish mistake of both recovering high and pulling out a bomb, instead of covering his landing or going to the ledge. Reacting to that and landing Up-air after he used up his options, is part of how you use it.

That Up-B at the end, was a good example of using it on projectiles. Don't be afraid to do that more often, if your opponent is mindlessly spamming projectiles. You'll want to use it sparingly as a recovery mix up, but it can work well on slower projectiles or mindless spamming.

Ike
Right off the bat, you showed good judgement in not immediately going to the ledge, which would have led you straight into that Fsmash. That sets the tone of the rest of the match, as your judgement, spacing, and punish game were on point. Outside of the first one, you spaced them correctly and used them on whiffs you wouldn't have been able to punish otherwise. You managed to get around the fact that he has a big ole sword, by using Phantom as an extension of Zelda and challenging his swings. Contrast to the Toon Link match, your edgeguarding was really good and you made sure he never got back for free.

The only real flaw, was you not following up with your parries. That Ike was not spacing his aerials correctly, so even if you didn't get the parry, you could still punish with OoS options. Up-B OoS, would have ended those stocks quicker. Otherwise, it was clear you had a better handle on your character than that Ike player had on his.

That was by far your best out of these and not just because of the three stock.

Falco
This was a bit of a struggle. Falco is surprisingly difficult and I personally find him more difficult than Fox, especially in a seemingly really laggy match. You showed a good amount of patience and movement to compensate, but Up-Tilt will make your life much easier in these types of MUs. You'll want to make good use of your disjoints, against a hitbox happy character like Falco and Up-Tilt covers all angles. Get used to both spacing and doing it out of a run.

It's going to be mostly minor nitpicks otherwise. Don't be afraid to Up-B into those random charged Fsmashes he kept doing. I don't know why he kept throwing them out at a distance, when you clearly weren't going to rush into them, but take advantage of that and Up-B next time. Also, reflect his projectiles as well. Don't let him camp and make you approach, keep forcing him to approach instead. You can often get two reflects for the price of one Nayru.

Be careful going offstage and edgeguarding him. You learned the hard way, what can happen and if he hadn't fast fell, that would have likely decided the match. He is the only Star Fox character that can handle himself offstage and the only one who can pressure Zelda from any point. If he is that close to the ledge, you need to stage spike not spike. Use Nayru's Love or LK to stage spike him. With teching being the way it is, I can't guarantee you'll get much, but it might lead into a favorable position. Otherwise, try to ledge trap, if you're not feeling comfortable. Good on you for attempting, you need to get used to doing that on poor recoveries like Falco's.
Too many players don't edgeguard and Zelda has lots of good tools to do that.

You handled that pretty well, though. This is a pretty neutral heavy MU, so I don't have a lot of specific tips and strategies. You got a little too panicky at the end I think and kept accidentally running off the stage and air-dodging, so definitely don't do that. Last hit last stock situations, is where Zelda can thrive as a punish based character, so getting used to playing in that kind of pressure and keeping a cool head is important. Otherwise, you played that MU, especially that neutral, about how you should. Playing against Falco, requires a significant amount of patience and requires few mistakes, so playing as patient as you did, is already half the battle. If you need it, I can upload some Falco matches of my own, to show you how I do it, but you already do most of it, just need to incorporate Up-Tilt a little more.

I also liked that LK OoS on the bottom platform(10:53).

All in all, you've improved considerably. You have more consistent combos, better spacing, your Phantom actually has purpose, and your judgement and ability to perform under pressure has much improved. Your movement is the most noticeable and you aren't just standing around as much and it's starting to look fairly smooth. You're still rough around the edges, have things you still need to work on, but you are more consistent and your spacing is tighter, while your overall fundamentals are more refined than they were before. If you keep grinding, you should catch up fairly quickly. At least online, you are heading towards the mid-range, judging by your GSP level.
 

Aussie1024

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Bit late on this, had a backlog of things I needed to respond to and this post is a bit of a whopper.
That's okay! No worries. I appreciate you taking the time to write this for me. I'm very thankful for you writing these long posts in response to my stuff in general. This community is really helping me learn Zelda. This post will probably be a very long one too as I give you feedback to your advice. Thanks again.

The biggest problem here, was stage control. You let him control too much of it and sometimes you retreated when it wasn't necessary or didn't move up when you could.
I agree with this 100%. I got scared in playing the Link matchup. It's easy to get intimidated by their projectile game, plus rushing down with Zelda is a no-no. I was left at a standstill tbh, just waiting for what to do next.

You also need to edgeguard more.
I think this is a part of my game that's really inconsistent. You said in the Ike match it was really solid while I was struggling with it in this one. I think it has to do with reading the opponent and taking advantage of them being off-stage. Just getting more match experience will help, and realizing that she has solid edgeguarding tools.

There were also times you had your back to the ledge and managed to get a grab or frame advantage from a shield, but hit him back onstage.
Lol wow I forgot about that. This proves I still struggle with situational playing and thinking about what predicament I'm in.

You had the right idea, trying to follow up a parry with Bair(1:03), but didn't have the correct spacing(too close). Pay attention to the distance in those situations and if you are too close, you need to follow up with a different option.
I know you mentioned something about parrying in the Ike battle, but I'll address this one too. I have a hard time using my parries to my advantage. The timing and space feel off to me when I do it. Idk how I can practice that.

And you did show some strategy with Phantom and are really improving with it and were more proactive in general in the second half. Especially pressuring with Dair, when he tried to shield.
Thanks I was proud of doing that. I'm still trying to incorporate Dair into my kit but I thought that worked really well. I hope to keep using it when the situation presents itself. I also don't wanna be afraid to use Phantom, don't hit B and make the opponent guess more often.

That Up-air was also good.
I was real happy about that one as well. I'm glad I was able to take advantage of his bad decision coming high. I'm hoping to look for more situations in future battles to use it effectively.

That Up-B at the end, was a good example of using it on projectiles. Don't be afraid to do that more often, if your opponent is mindlessly spamming projectiles
That was the idea. I found it's a good way to punish people who use projectiles too much, so long as I time it before the projectile is fired and it doesn't get too predictable.

You managed to get around the fact that he has a big ole sword, by using Phantom as an extension of Zelda and challenging his swings.
Thanks. I've faced plenty of Ikes online. I'm still struggling with them, but I'm starting to pick things up. I know this player didn't use Ike to his full potential, but it's helping me figure out how to face him. That's the good part of facing a lot of Ikes online - learning the MU and figuring out how to use her strengths and their weaknesses against him.

The only real flaw, was you not following up with your parries.
I know I quoted your post in the TL match, but I might as well mentioned again. Parries are still a part of the game I'm working on. It's kinda frustrating that the timing and spacing are so hard for me to get down.

This was a bit of a struggle.
It definitely was. Falco is a tough MU for Zelda. He can absolutely kill her in the air with his aerials. I felt scared every time I was even slightly off the ground.

You'll want to make good use of your disjoints, against a hitbox happy character like Falco and Up-Tilt covers all angles. Get used to both spacing and doing it out of a run.
Yeah Up-Tilt is still a work in progress. Especially on the run. I know you told me a couple weeks ago about starting up the move earlier so it can hit a bit earlier, but doing it on the run is tough. It'll take quite a bit of reps.

Don't be afraid to Up-B into those random charged Fsmashes he kept doing
I was afraid that he would hit me as I would Farore into them. I was also scared that if I missed the input, he would punish me since Farore's has lag as she reappears.

Be careful going offstage and edgeguarding him.
I felt really dumb on that one. I should have known better since Falco is so good off the ground. You mentioned using Nayru and LK offstage. I've seen Ven use Nayru offstage and it works efficiently. I know you mentioned it to me before. I really gotta work on that.

You got a little too panicky at the end I think and kept accidentally running off the stage and air-dodging, so definitely don't do that
This would be something for me to be ashamed of if I lost. This was the last match I recorded for that night and my bro wanted to play another game with me. I felt like I had to rush it and get the match over with, which led to some awful ideas like you said. Idk why I felt like I had to rush it tbh. I wouldn't mind you uploading the Falco videos for this reason, because I didn't like how I finished that battle.

All in all, you've improved considerably.
I appreciate the kind words. I honestly haven't seen so much improvement, but me being so perfectionistic, that's probably my own fault. I felt fortunate to get some good battles out that night. I did some battles before this set and felt off. Everything felt off. It was frustrating because the night before I recorded I played a real solid Zelda. She felt fluid, I baited and punished well, and spaced myself decently as well. I wish I got those on my capture card.

You're still rough around the edges, have things you still need to work on,
This is very true. Incorporating tilts, parrying, better punishes, situational decision-making, and overall being a smarter player. I'm proud of the progress I made, but I'm kinda mad at my decision-making in this set tbh.

If you keep grinding, you should catch up fairly quickly. At least online, you are heading towards the mid-range, judging by your GSP level.
By "catch)ing) up fairly quickly," did you mean catching up to you guys? I'm hoping I can keep getting my GSP higher so I can face tougher opponents, but I honestly don't wanna judge my progress by how high my GSP. Before I dedicated myself to being a smarter player and refining my fundamentals, my GSP was as high as 2.5 and could never get it over the elite cusp. We'll have to see where it goes as I go along, but I don't want that to get in my head and define the strides I've made.

Again, thanks for the feedback. It's very much appreciated. I'm glad you're seeing improvement in my game and hope to keep building on it. Like I said before, I'm feeling a bit down about still struggling with certain things like parrying, having a better punish game, and incorporating her whole kit situationally.
 

StoicPhantom

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No problem.

I agree with this 100%. I got scared in playing the Link matchup. It's easy to get intimidated by their projectile game, plus rushing down with Zelda is a no-no. I was left at a standstill tbh, just waiting for what to do next.
Just use the minimal amount of movement and committal possible, to avoid his projectiles. I tend to keep just outside of his sword range, in order to bait him into an action. If he retreats, you chase, if he attacks, you defend then punish. Basically, you want to violate his personal space as much as possible, while keeping yourself in a position to react. Few can calmly act at that distance and that should help break his zone.

I think this is a part of my game that's really inconsistent.
There is an incredible level of depth in Zelda's edgeguarding and I'm still hashing things out myself. You just have to make sure you are attempting and not just idly waiting for him to recover. Sometimes your mere presence offstage, can make them panic and air-dodge or Up-B early. Keep in mind the amount of jumps they have, the mobility and DI they are capable of, what kind of Up-B recovery they have, and how far they are from the ledge.

What tools you need to use, is determined by those things. Ike's Side-B is difficult to intercept, but Phantom acts as a wall and can easily intercept. His Up-B has super armor and a spike hitbox, but Nayru is a multi-hit and has invincibility, so running off and hitting him from behind, will hit him out of his armor and stage spike. You need to think about the properties of both of your tools and decide accordingly. If nothing else, keep throwing yourself at them offstage, until you learn every characters recovery methods and get used to timing your edgeguards to them.

I'm currently working on how Nair affects offstage and what I can chain from it. It works rather well and setups further edgeguarding tools like Nayru's Love. It might be more effective using them together, given how weak their hits are individually and Nayru's Love will protect you from Up-Bs. I'm kind of surprised I didn't think of it before, given how good it is. Keep it in mind.
I know I quoted your post in the TL match, but I might as well mentioned again. Parries are still a part of the game I'm working on. It's kinda frustrating that the timing and spacing are so hard for me to get down.
Don't worry too much about the parries themselves, even top players don't get them often. I'm more saying make sure you have a follow up when you do get them, accidental or not. Mostly you want to pay attention to the distance between you and the move you parried. That LK OoS on the bottom platform, was a good example of being at the proper spacing for the LK sweet-spot. If you had parried an attack and he was at that distance, that's when you would follow up with LK. You need to strike with Zelda's heel to get the sweet-spot. So long as that is hitting their hurtbox, it doesn't matter what distance or angle your hitting from.

Up-B has a large omnidirectional hitbox, that comes out frame 6. It can hit a wide amount of angles, but it is only effective at specific percents. Too low or high of a percent, will cause you to miss the second hit and lead to potentially being punished. It can sometimes pop them at an angle, if they are anywhere in the air, but directly above you, so be ready for that.

Up-smash and Dair can also be good in some situations. The key is understanding how much time you have(how fast the opponent's move is), what distance is he at(did he DI in or out?), what percent he is at, are you near the ledge(LK) or center stage(Up-B), and what is ultimately the most damaging option you can take(do you need damage, stage control, or a KO?).

It definitely was. Falco is a tough MU for Zelda. He can absolutely kill her in the air with his aerials. I felt scared every time I was even slightly off the ground.
Make sure you DI out of his combos. As long as you don't let him land a kill move, his combos become increasingly useless. When in doubt put as much distance as possible between you, in the air.

I was afraid that he would hit me as I would Farore into them. I was also scared that if I missed the input, he would punish me since Farore's has lag as she reappears.
The risk is indeed there, but it is low. I've traded an Up-B before, but it's been rather rare. The timing to do so is pretty strict on their part. You'll just need to get used to the distance for the second part. Don't forget you can diagonally input on the ground and she will go a shorter distance. It can be useful if you don't have time to space yourself. And the sour-spot is still plenty powerful, so as long as you can land that, you won't need to worry about being punished and will still get stage control.

Idk why I felt like I had to rush it tbh. I wouldn't mind you uploading the Falco videos for this reason, because I didn't like how I finished that battle.
Indeed, don't feel like you need to rush for the KO. Even if it takes minutes, you can't afford to fish like they can. I'll see if I can find a decent Falco one, but I don't know how useful it will be. You already do quite a lot of what I do and I don't exactly have a solid understanding of this MU.

I appreciate the kind words. I honestly haven't seen so much improvement, but me being so perfectionistic, that's probably my own fault.
Improvement is so gradual, it's difficult to notice. Especially in regards to something complex like fighting games. I'm currently learning Japanese and haven't really felt like I've improved in months. The reality though, is I've been noticing words and sentences are more coherent and familiar, even if I haven't made them my own yet. I can't speak it, can't watch anything without subtitles, and can't read anything outside really basic sentences. But without my realizing it, I have been getting better with individual words and sentences and previously unfamiliar words, just sort of pop out at me.

That's because we measure language goals on whether we can speak or understand fluently or not. That's a bit like using whether we can win a major or not, as a progress marker. That's not particularly good at measuring short term progress or anything between start and end. Fighting games are a similar story. Measuring by how many matches you can win or how good of players you can beat, doesn't really represent individual improvements like better spacing. I'm not really winning more matches than I was a week ago, but I can tell my edgeguarding and LK spacing are getting a lot better.

So you might not notice, but other people do. And if you don't believe me, see if you have early replays and compare them with recent ones. I think you'll find you've improved quite a bit.

By "catch)ing) up fairly quickly," did you mean catching up to you guys? I'm hoping I can keep getting my GSP higher so I can face tougher opponents, but I honestly don't wanna judge my progress by how high my GSP. Before I dedicated myself to being a smarter player and refining my fundamentals, my GSP was as high as 2.5 and could never get it over the elite cusp. We'll have to see where it goes as I go along, but I don't want that to get in my head and define the strides I've made.
Yep. You have the benefit of available knowledge, so you can focus on refinement instead of needing to form the meta. You should be able to go through the basics quicker than the rest of us and should catch up quickly, so long as you are putting in the daily grind and paying attention. That is the whole point of pooling knowledge and creating resources after all.

I feel like I have a solid understanding of how Zelda works, but offstage and especially Phantom and Nayru offstage, still remains a bit of a mystery. I'll eventually have those figured and the rest will just be refinement. That's where I will really stall and what will allow newer Zelda players to catch up.

As for Elite and online, it's not the best judge of skill level, but there are clear differences between large differences in GSP. 2.5 is going to be different than 2.8, which is going to be different than 3.0. And as you get higher, that will start shrinking to large differences between increments of 100,000 and even 50,000. Things start to slow to a crawl at the top, so even small GSP increments can denote a big gap in skill. Lag can affect things and I feel like Elite has become a containment field for lag, but there are still clear differences. So definitely don't treat as an accurate measurement, but you will find better players at the higher GSPs.
 

Aussie1024

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Just use the minimal amount of movement and committal possible, to avoid his projectiles. I tend to keep just outside of his sword range, in order to bait him into an action.
Noted. I guess by "minimal amount of movement," you mean to be careful with it? I do wanna keep dashing from side-to-side to keep him guessing with what I'm gonna do next. That probably applies to the other swordies as well? Or swordies that have a particular style?

You just have to make sure you are attempting and not just idly waiting for him to recover. Sometimes your mere presence offstage, can make them panic and air-dodge or Up-B early. Keep in mind the amount of jumps they have, the mobility and DI they are capable of, what kind of Up-B recovery they have, and how far they are from the ledge.
I've been trying to keep attention on the stuff you mentioned in my latest battles. I get intimidated by certain characters who have recoveries that could keep me from affecting them offstage. I gotta start learning weaknesses to certain characters' recoveries, like the back of Ike's Aether that you mentioned here.

I'm more saying make sure you have a follow up when you do get them, accidental or not. Mostly you want to pay attention to the distance between you and the move you parried.
By watching top players over the past couple of days, I can tell it's very situational. You have to pay close attention to where you're at and what attacks you can use that take advantage of the parries. I think there's also a slight delay that happens after the parry which kinda makes me think twice in that split-second.

The key is understanding how much time you have(how fast the opponent's move is), what distance is he at(did he DI in or out?), what percent he is at, are you near the ledge(LK) or center stage(Up-B), and what is ultimately the most damaging option you can take(do you need damage, stage control, or a KO?).
I see what you're talking about. I know we both bring this up often, but it also requires MU experience and learning what works against each character.

Make sure you DI out of his combos.
Hmm. I didn't even know that was possible.

Don't forget you can diagonally input on the ground and she will go a shorter distance. It can be useful if you don't have time to space yourself
That's handy to know. Thanks. That could be a useful tool as a surprise attack and when I don't have time to space myself like you said. I'll need to work on that.

Even if it takes minutes, you can't afford to fish like they can.
Lol nope you cannot. I've learned that the hard way more often than not.

Improvement is so gradual, it's difficult to notice.
This is very true. I also come to find that peers seem to realize improvement in these areas more so than you. I am the only one who sees myself play everyday, if that makes sense lol. Others may see you improve in areas that you probably don't even notice. It doesn't just apply to fighting games. You used the analogy of learning Japanese (good luck with that btw - I've heard Japanese is one of the tougher languages to learn). It's good that this community exists so we can realize some things that we don't notice when we're playing and trying to get better everyday. It's not the winning that matters, but it's more so how you're improving you're craft to get better overall.

So you might not notice, but other people do. And if you don't believe me, see if you have early replays and compare them with recent ones. I think you'll find you've improved quite a bit.
I think when I look back on my battles that I first uploaded a month ago, I'll probably see that as well. I know nerves played a role in those matches, but I feel like I overall have a better understanding of Zelda now than I did a month ago. I'm just hoping to keep improving with every session I have.

Yep. You have the benefit of available knowledge, so you can focus on refinement instead of needing to form the meta. You should be able to go through the basics quicker than the rest of us and should catch up quickly, so long as you are putting in the daily grind and paying attention. That is the whole point of pooling knowledge and creating resources after all.
I know I say this a lot, but I am very thankful for the community here helping me out for learning Zelda and getting the hang of her play style. I'm glad I can learn from those who are more accustomed to Zelda and how she functions as a character, so I can take that knowledge and apply that to my game. I actually haven't played a lot this week. so that might hurt me quite a bit.

As for Elite and online, it's not the best judge of skill level, but there are clear differences between large differences in GSP. 2.5 is going to be different than 2.8
Ain't that the truth. In my early days of playing Ultimate, I got to 2.5 with Zelda and could never get higher because there was such a clear difference between 2.5 and 2.8. I dare not think how amazing 3.0, even with my improved game. I'm just hoping to continue to use online to learn, no matter how high or low my GSP might be. It doesn't define me as a player. What matters is what I can learn from each match, see where I'm improving, and see what I can improve in.
 

StoicPhantom

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Unfortunately, it seems I accidentally deleted my Falco replays, thinking they were old ones. If you are still having trouble, I can upload some whenever I fight another one, but it's rare I run into him. You still do mostly what I do, so it might not be all that necessary.

Noted. I guess by "minimal amount of movement," you mean to be careful with it? I do wanna keep dashing from side-to-side to keep him guessing with what I'm gonna do next. That probably applies to the other swordies as well? Or swordies that have a particular style?
I mean don't give a wider berth than you need to. Ideally you would cut as close as possible to the projectile, without getting hit. Projectiles aren't just for combos and chip damage, they can also work similar to Zelda's Phantom, which is still a projectile, and force the opponent to move a certain way. That's how the Links work and other projectile characters. So in other words, don't full hop when you can short hop, don't shield when you can dash back, don't reflect the weaker ones when you can hop over them. Nayru's Love is an ok reflector, but it has a ton of endlag, so don't use it until you really need to. Strong projectiles like Charge Shot or Shadow Ball are good to reflect when you can, but weak ones it's probably better in most cases to find other means to avoid them. Use whatever is the lowest committal but still effective option, so you can continue pressing the attack with little interruption.

That idea does apply to swords as well, don't give more ground than you absolutely need to, lest they box you in. Most sword attacks swing in arcs, so they have blind spots at certain parts of the move. Given how quick they are, it's going to be really difficult to do at first, but you need to learn how to dance around them, using those blind spots. Some like Ike's Fair, will allow you to dash under them and shield, hopefully breaking his spacing and allow you to punish with Zelda's OoS options. Others like Shulk's Nair, will allow you to Up-Smash OoS, if he tries to cross you up with it. Learning the different arcs and what you can do to avoid and counter them, is key to fighting swords with Zelda. Up-Tilt can work wonders for this.

Dash dancing like that is ok to do, just don't get too comfortable or mindless about it. However small of a commit it is, it's still a commit and can be punished with a surprise attack. I'm sure you've found you can punish the opponent's dash/dash dance with Up-B sometimes. Same thing applies to Zelda's as well.

I've been trying to keep attention on the stuff you mentioned in my latest battles. I get intimidated by certain characters who have recoveries that could keep me from affecting them offstage. I gotta start learning weaknesses to certain characters' recoveries, like the back of Ike's Aether that you mentioned here.
If nothing else, Nayru's Love will beat most recoveries. Just need to be careful on the ones that are intangible or have large disjoints. Ike was a good example and so is K. Rool. In their and similar cases, attacking from the side that doesn't have them is what you want to do.

By watching top players over the past couple of days, I can tell it's very situational. You have to pay close attention to where you're at and what attacks you can use that take advantage of the parries. I think there's also a slight delay that happens after the parry which kinda makes me think twice in that split-second.
At the very least, Jab will beat nearly any attack, auto canceled aerials will be the only thing you have to worry about with it. In the vast majority of cases, LKs and Up-B will follow up any parried attacks. They have active hitboxs on frame 5 and 6 respectively, so should punish even most Jabs.

Hmm. I didn't even know that was possible.
Low percent combos not likely, but you should be able to mitigate mid and high percent combos. That's how you prevent him from getting easy KOs.

This is very true. I also come to find that peers seem to realize improvement in these areas more so than you. I am the only one who sees myself play everyday, if that makes sense lol. Others may see you improve in areas that you probably don't even notice. It doesn't just apply to fighting games. You used the analogy of learning Japanese (good luck with that btw - I've heard Japanese is one of the tougher languages to learn). It's good that this community exists so we can realize some things that we don't notice when we're playing and trying to get better everyday. It's not the winning that matters, but it's more so how you're improving you're craft to get better overall.
Pretty much. It's difficult to think in broad terms, so getting a third party perspective is helpful.

And thanks. It's actually more learning a new writing system that makes Japanese difficult. And it's not even difficult necessarily, more so tedious, given how much you need to learn. And I'm rather bad with tedium sometimes, making it difficult to be consistent on repetition. I don't practice my combos enough, either.

I actually haven't played a lot this week. so that might hurt me quite a bit.
While ideally you would play a lot of hours a day and be consistent, being consistent is more important. Since the human brain works in patterns, making practice daily is important for retention. So practicing for half an hour to an hour a day, is better than practicing for many hours, but sporadically. So if you're short on time or motivation, practicing for an hour or so will still be alright.
 

Aussie1024

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Unfortunately, it seems I accidentally deleted my Falco replays, thinking they were old ones.
No worries! I think I got a decent idea of how to play Falco anyway thanks to our exchanges. It's now about gaining hands-on MU experience.

I mean don't give a wider berth than you need to. Ideally you would cut as close as possible to the projectile, without getting hit.
Okay I get that. It seems to be a spacing thing that I need to learn, such as the distance a projectile can be thrown, and how long the character's sword is. That will come with some labbing and MU experience online. Then it's just up to me to figure out what moves can work in response to a projectile throw or a sword attack. I played a Link last night and I got a decent idea of what he's capable of in terms of sword and projectile range.

Dash dancing like that is ok to do, just don't get too comfortable or mindless about it. However small of a commit it is, it's still a commit and can be punished with a surprise attack.
I'm learning this the hard way in matches. My dashes can get punished if I'm not thinking what to do with them.

I'm sure you've found you can punish the opponent's dash/dash dance with Up-B sometimes.
Yup I have learned this. It's hard to pinpoint where to punish them, but whenever I get it, it breaks up their rhythm pretty well.

If nothing else, Nayru's Love will beat most recoveries. Just need to be careful on the ones that are intangible or have large disjoints. Ike was a good example and so is K. Rool. In their and similar cases, attacking from the side that doesn't have them is what you want to do.
Does K. Rool's recovery have a blindspot where you can hit him from behind like Ike?

At the very least, Jab will beat nearly any attack,
I actually followed up a parry with a Jab once or twice last night. Now it's learning how to parry with a follow-up to Farore's or the LK's.

EDIT 3/5 @ 8:04 pm - I did a match against Doc tonight in which I followed a parry with a sweetspot LK. Progress I guess lol. Idk if I'll upload the clip on here. It would be from my phone since I can't upload directly since I don't have a PC to transfer it to. I also was able to land a spike, so if you wanna see that clip, I'll upload that one too.

EDIT 3/6 @ 7:47 pm - Here's a link to the video evidence of what I said above. I just decided to record it on the capture card for quality reasons - https://youtu.be/Z9nQgxDYvZs

And thanks. It's actually more learning a new writing system that makes Japanese difficult. And it's not even difficult necessarily, more so tedious, given how much you need to learn.
I remember looking up a video when I was in college about the Japanese language. It looks so tough to learn and get into your head, much harder to write and speak cohesively. Seriously, best of luck. I mean that in the most sincere way. You're embarking on a difficult quest my friend, but I know it'll be worth it in the end. Learning a new language is always helpful in the long run. You never know when it might come in handy.

While ideally you would play a lot of hours a day and be consistent, being consistent is more important. Since the human brain works in patterns, making practice daily is important for retention. So practicing for half an hour to an hour a day, is better than practicing for many hours, but sporadically. So if you're short on time or motivation, practicing for an hour or so will still be alright.
I agree. I'd honestly wanna play for 1-2 hours a day rather than 5-6 every other day. It gives you muscle memory and retention like you mentioned, and you also get some time to relax and ponder on what you learned. Gaining skill in a video game isn't about consistently playing for as many hours as possible. It is inhumane and you will convince yourself and those closest to you that gaming is life, which is simply not true. There is so much more to life than video games. While playing Smash daily is important to keep retention and whatnot, it's crucial to get an equal time of rest and play.

With that said, taking a week off really hurt me. I did four matches with each of my mains. While I wasn't terrible as Zelda, I was back fishing for kills with LK's and Farore's again more often than not. Now I gotta work smart (not hard) in that I gotta be patient with her, and wait for my opponent to slip and take advantage. I'm hoping that once I get back into a rhythm that I can get back to where I was in terms of playing with her.
 
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StoicPhantom

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Does K. Rool's recovery have a blindspot where you can hit him from behind like Ike?
So long as you can get around the propeller, Nayru's Love will knock him out of the super armor. You won't be getting much until high percents, unless you can figure out how to combo from there(I haven't yet). It's just getting around the propeller that can be difficult in the first place, given how deceptive it's hitbox is.

EDIT 3/6 @ 7:47 pm - Here's a link to the video evidence of what I said above.
If you didn't intend to remove it, it's listed as unavailable.


I remember looking up a video when I was in college about the Japanese language. It looks so tough to learn and get into your head, much harder to write and speak cohesively. Seriously, best of luck. I mean that in the most sincere way. You're embarking on a difficult quest my friend, but I know it'll be worth it in the end. Learning a new language is always helpful in the long run. You never know when it might come in handy.
Thanks again. The spoken language is actually fairly simple, it's just the language itself is completely backwards from an English perspective. And if you want to be polite, that's a giant can of worms. Similarly with the written aspect, once you get past how much characters you need to learn to get an adult level of understanding(over 3000!). It takes a bit of a mentality shift in terms of reading, but is also oddly simple once you get used to it.

With that said, taking a week off really hurt me. I did four matches with each of my mains. While I wasn't terrible as Zelda, I was back fishing for kills with LK's and Farore's again more often than not. Now I gotta work smart (not hard) in that I gotta be patient with her, and wait for my opponent to slip and take advantage. I'm hoping that once I get back into a rhythm that I can get back to where I was in terms of playing with her.
Indeed. Too long and you really take a hit, in terms of the muscle memory. I just got off a two day rest, and spent the first few matches making slight recovery mistakes with FW, causing me to lose a few stocks. Managed to get back on course after a bit, but I can see how taking a week off would affect things.
 

Aussie1024

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So long as you can get around the propeller, Nayru's Love will knock him out of the super armor. You won't be getting much until high percents,
That propeller is really tough to get around because it covers a good distance and has a relatively decent hitbox. it's what makes it so tricky to make it tough on him offstage. Plus his recovery has great distance.

If you didn't intend to remove it, it's listed as unavailable.
That was my bad. I had it listed as private and forgot that it's only available to the uploader in that setting. I made it public so you should be able to see it now.

Similarly with the written aspect, once you get past how much characters you need to learn to get an adult level of understanding(over 3000!). It takes a bit of a mentality shift in terms of reading, but is also oddly simple once you get used to it.
Just hearing about how many characters there are to the Japanese language in that video I mentioned left my jaw hanging. It's incredible to hear just how much you have to learn concerning the characters and integrating them into speaking constructive sentences. I know you said speaking it isn't as difficult, but it does take repetition to figure out which characters belong in certain contexts. So long as you're committed to it and taking the time to learn it everyday, that's when it starts to come naturally. It's kinda like Smash as you alluded to before. It takes time, practice, and discipline.

Indeed. Too long and you really take a hit, in terms of the muscle memory. I just got off a two day rest, and spent the first few matches making slight recovery mistakes with FW, causing me to lose a few stocks. Managed to get back on course after a bit, but I can see how taking a week off would affect things.
It's amazing just to think that even having two days off from the game can cause misinputting certain commands. Since I'm really concentrating on learning the game from a strategic perspective, it blows my mind that it works that way. You really need to stay on top of it and practice button inputs, strategies, and the like. I played Monday and Tuesday night online. I was a bit better on Tuesday, but still had some input issues. Like you said before, it's about keeping up with your training and inputs daily or every other day for a relative amount of time (30 - 60 minutes). It's that crucial to how you do, but also shows you what you need to learn, which is encouraging. Losing may make you seem like you did nothing right, but that is far from the case.
 

StoicPhantom

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I made it public so you should be able to see it now.
Good job on landing those. That is indeed the correct spacing, but bear in mind that character size, but most importantly move animations might make it impossible to land the sweet-spot. Doc's head is big enough to land at that close of range, but some characters are either small enough to duck under or big enough that you might hit the space between their arms or they have moves that shift their hurtbox enough to avoid the sweet-spot or you may overshoot them entirely.

You'll need to get a feel for the distance relative to character size and the type of move you are parrying. Heavies are pretty easy to hit at pretty much any angle and distance, but some characters might require you to move a little forward or back to land the sweet-spot. As such, you'll also need to practice using LK out of a dash. Also DI does affect LK slightly, so if you hold it, you will move forward a little during the animation. It could mean the difference between hitting the sweet-spot or missing, so keep that in mind.

Remember the feeling of distance between the ledge, Zelda, and the opponent on that Dair spike. That will come up a lot, so get a feel for when you can just casually hop off and Dair like you did. In specific cases, you can even pull something akin to a zero-to-death, by comboing an opponent offstage right about where that distance was. Did that the other day, but I think I ran out of space for replays, so no showing it off unfortunately.
 

Aussie1024

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That is indeed the correct spacing, but bear in mind that character size, but most importantly move animations might make it impossible to land the sweet-spot.
You'll need to get a feel for the distance relative to character size and the type of move you are parrying.
Thanks for reminding me about that. It's imperative to know where and when to land those off a parry. Especially when it comes to all the different character sizes and shapes. It's not something you can just learn over a short period of time. It'll take plenty of matches and reps to learn where to apply different strategies of landing moves off parries - the timing, if a dash needs to be incorporated, etc. I'm rambling but you know what I mean. Landing moves off parries (especially Zelda's precise aerials) have so many crazy variables to them.

Remember the feeling of distance between the ledge, Zelda, and the opponent on that Dair spike.
Yes, that's very imperative when landing a spike with Zelda, or any character really. Since he was waiting to recover low, I thought it was the perfect time to use it. It also won me the match. 10-15 seconds after that spike, he tried to spike me off the stage when I was recovering. He missed and SD'd. It's amazing how spikes can shake people mentally. The situations to spike will still take some reps to learn when and where to execute, but that one is a good start to learn.

In specific cases, you can even pull something akin to a zero-to-death, by comboing an opponent offstage right about where that distance was. Did that the other day, but I think I ran out of space for replays, so no showing it off unfortunately
That sucks. I am intrigued to see how you were able to pull that off. I struggle with landing combos consistently and can't do anything like 0 to deathing someone. That would be a treat to see how one pulls that off with a spike finish added onto it.
 

StoicPhantom

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That sucks. I am intrigued to see how you were able to pull that off. I struggle with landing combos consistently and can't do anything like 0 to deathing someone. That would be a treat to see how one pulls that off with a spike finish added onto it.
A lot of it is DI reads and conditioning. You can force them to move in a specific way that let's you combo them off stage into the spike. Basically overwhelmed a Link with pressure at the start and made him keep retreating into my attacks, which comboed him off stage into that spot near the ledge I talked about. Once he was in that spot, it wasn't possible for him to do anything, given that Zelda's Dair is intangible and I was already on top of him.
 

Aussie1024

"Stow your fear. It's now or never!"
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A lot of it is DI reads and conditioning.
I'm still learning how to read those two things. It doesn't make it easier to pull off on a consistent basis for sure (those things are tough to pull off to begin with). but learning stuff like DI & conditioning make it easier to read and attempt to pull off.
 
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