Ken Neth
Smash Champion
Use this thread for the discussion of the ZSS/Snake matchup.
Discuss
Discuss
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ZSS Matchup Discussion
- Thread starter Ken Neth
- Start date
-Ran
Smash Master
- Perfect shielding ->b is mandatory.
- Her main kill moves have tiny hit boxes.
- She'll be using one of her main kill moves as a spacing tool. >B
- She'll chase your recovery, recover lower than usual.
- Her jab and tilts are amazing as get out of **** moves. Shield and then grab.
- She'll punish Spot dodging very well with down smash.
- She has an early chain grab vs Snake.
- Off stage she's hard to spike, utilize Mortars for verticle, c4 for the stage she'll latch to, and a landmine for if she overshoots with her down b. Jab spam will put out enough pressure to force Zss into a mistake.
- Her grab is slow, and will only be used out of a stun.
- Di up and away when you're down smash stunned, she can set up a Down-Smash to kill move [nair, bair], if she waits it out.
- Her main kill moves have tiny hit boxes.
- She'll be using one of her main kill moves as a spacing tool. >B
- She'll chase your recovery, recover lower than usual.
- Her jab and tilts are amazing as get out of **** moves. Shield and then grab.
- She'll punish Spot dodging very well with down smash.
- She has an early chain grab vs Snake.
- Off stage she's hard to spike, utilize Mortars for verticle, c4 for the stage she'll latch to, and a landmine for if she overshoots with her down b. Jab spam will put out enough pressure to force Zss into a mistake.
- Her grab is slow, and will only be used out of a stun.
- Di up and away when you're down smash stunned, she can set up a Down-Smash to kill move [nair, bair], if she waits it out.
Interestingly enough, the ZSS players were discussing Snake pretty heavily (though unofficially, according to the thread) a few days ago. From what I gather, most of them felt it was in their favor (which I think was not the case before).
Now, I'm not an expert ZSS, but I'll do my best:
-obviously, you've got the tilts. Those are pretty extreme. Up tilt KOs at ridiculously low percents, ftilt is highly damaging (luckily it can be SDI'd if you're fast enough), and I don't think Snake uses dtilt very often.
-your landmine moves - downb and dsmash. I'm not sure how Snake uses these in regards to set ups and stuff, I could never figure it out.
-The air: This is where ZSS excels. ZSS's metagame has evolved past spamming the whip against Snake, and in the air she can rack up damage on Snake very quickly. She also can edgeguard him pretty decently offstage.
-KOs: Well, as said earlier, she shouldn't be spamming the whip anymore, so you guys don't have to worry about that constantly. Just be wary that it'll probably be fresh though. You can PS it pretty easily anyway, or stand in the deadzone and get a free tilt. But she now has a buffered CG that works on Snake I think up to 60% (I'm not sure about this) and more importantly, gets him offstage. You can drop grenades in between the grabs if you buffer a grenade pull, and I suggest you do so, definitely. And then there is her nair, another set up for edgeguarding. This move has been recently experimented with, and it seems to have a high amount of hitstun (way more than Brawl's usual amount, which is laughable) so it can potentially set up for true combos.
Again, I'm not a ZSS expert, so I said what I could. Hope that helps.
Now, I'm not an expert ZSS, but I'll do my best:
-obviously, you've got the tilts. Those are pretty extreme. Up tilt KOs at ridiculously low percents, ftilt is highly damaging (luckily it can be SDI'd if you're fast enough), and I don't think Snake uses dtilt very often.
-your landmine moves - downb and dsmash. I'm not sure how Snake uses these in regards to set ups and stuff, I could never figure it out.
-The air: This is where ZSS excels. ZSS's metagame has evolved past spamming the whip against Snake, and in the air she can rack up damage on Snake very quickly. She also can edgeguard him pretty decently offstage.
-KOs: Well, as said earlier, she shouldn't be spamming the whip anymore, so you guys don't have to worry about that constantly. Just be wary that it'll probably be fresh though. You can PS it pretty easily anyway, or stand in the deadzone and get a free tilt. But she now has a buffered CG that works on Snake I think up to 60% (I'm not sure about this) and more importantly, gets him offstage. You can drop grenades in between the grabs if you buffer a grenade pull, and I suggest you do so, definitely. And then there is her nair, another set up for edgeguarding. This move has been recently experimented with, and it seems to have a high amount of hitstun (way more than Brawl's usual amount, which is laughable) so it can potentially set up for true combos.
Again, I'm not a ZSS expert, so I said what I could. Hope that helps.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Sasook is correct; we were half discussing Snake a few days ago and most of us agree it's 60:40 (with a few going as far as 65:35, but I disagree with that).
Here's what we've got:
- We have an inescapable chaingrab that runs from 0-60%+regrab on Snake that is not the end of the world for you guys, but it definitely helps a lot (btw, dropping grenades DOES NOT interrupt the chain grab unless ZSS screws up); it also throws Snake offstage at the end, which leads to...
- ZSS' edgeguard game on Snake is pretty severe. It can be challenging to recover offstage vs ZSS; go high when possible to alleviate that.
- The suit pieces can hurt Snake a lot in this matchup, but if we lose control of them, you can use them in your grenade game and deal a ton of damage. I like to throw two away at the beginning to avoid that, but mileage here may vary. Something to think about.
- The whip will be fresh. ZSS does a lot of her damage on Snake in melee range, which is not as fun for you as it might sound at first. We've got a ton of little combos and tricks we can use to deal damage very quickly and Snake is heavy and falls kind of fast, so that adds to her combo potential. On the other side of the coin, Snake is sometimes hard for us to KO due to his weight; you can live for a very long time by being conscious of what we have fresh and avoiding being hit by those moves (duh, but worth mentioning).
- ZSS destroys Snake in the air. It isn't even a contest. Uair is disjoined and as far as I know, not a single dair in the game outranges or prioritizes it (if applicable). We will juggle you and it will hurt. This is where the majority of our damage will be done.
- Your tilts are beast in this matchup. Abuse them even more than you usually would. They hurt really bad and outrange our ftilt and clank side-b (I believe?).
-I heard that we can crawl under your jab, but I don't know that for sure.
- Many ZSS mains agree that the grenades are only as big a deal as we make them; if we're scared of them they become a problem, otherwise, they are easily ignored.
- Utilt I believe kills us at 120% fresh, but it's easy to avoid.
Ehh that's all I got. Granted these are just our strengths, I dont' mean to make this look like some unwinnable matchup. The tilts are a really big deal, the dthrow tech chase is a pain in the ***, and this is definitely a momentum war; once you have it, it is very hard for us to get it back.
Here's what we've got:
- We have an inescapable chaingrab that runs from 0-60%+regrab on Snake that is not the end of the world for you guys, but it definitely helps a lot (btw, dropping grenades DOES NOT interrupt the chain grab unless ZSS screws up); it also throws Snake offstage at the end, which leads to...
- ZSS' edgeguard game on Snake is pretty severe. It can be challenging to recover offstage vs ZSS; go high when possible to alleviate that.
- The suit pieces can hurt Snake a lot in this matchup, but if we lose control of them, you can use them in your grenade game and deal a ton of damage. I like to throw two away at the beginning to avoid that, but mileage here may vary. Something to think about.
- The whip will be fresh. ZSS does a lot of her damage on Snake in melee range, which is not as fun for you as it might sound at first. We've got a ton of little combos and tricks we can use to deal damage very quickly and Snake is heavy and falls kind of fast, so that adds to her combo potential. On the other side of the coin, Snake is sometimes hard for us to KO due to his weight; you can live for a very long time by being conscious of what we have fresh and avoiding being hit by those moves (duh, but worth mentioning).
- ZSS destroys Snake in the air. It isn't even a contest. Uair is disjoined and as far as I know, not a single dair in the game outranges or prioritizes it (if applicable). We will juggle you and it will hurt. This is where the majority of our damage will be done.
- Your tilts are beast in this matchup. Abuse them even more than you usually would. They hurt really bad and outrange our ftilt and clank side-b (I believe?).
-I heard that we can crawl under your jab, but I don't know that for sure.
- Many ZSS mains agree that the grenades are only as big a deal as we make them; if we're scared of them they become a problem, otherwise, they are easily ignored.
- Utilt I believe kills us at 120% fresh, but it's easy to avoid.
Ehh that's all I got. Granted these are just our strengths, I dont' mean to make this look like some unwinnable matchup. The tilts are a really big deal, the dthrow tech chase is a pain in the ***, and this is definitely a momentum war; once you have it, it is very hard for us to get it back.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
I won't get detailed because I lack a TON of experience, just share my opinion on 2 things.
50:50 on some stages.
55:45 Zamus on others.
50:50 on some stages.
55:45 Zamus on others.
-Ran
Smash Master
Snake is no stranger to giving a free 40-80% at the start of a match to an opponent due to a chain grab, or a combo. This rarely prevents a match up from being even.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Yeah, of course. The chaingrab isn't everything. Like I said, it sure helps though.
-Ran
Smash Master
I find that having such a 'sure' thing allows Snake to do better in a match up. I used to be afraid of fighting Falco due to his Chain grabs. There was a point when I would blow myself up at the start of the match to avoid the chain grab from occurring. However, once I learned that it would be their focal point I started to use their reliance on the grab against them. This allows me to rack up damage and even introduce my tech chase game to make them fear close quarters..
Obviously ZSS has a great way to start off a grab with her stun gun but more importantly her down smash. It's different, but once you learn the range the same thing will start to happen. At least for the nonscrubs.
Obviously ZSS has a great way to start off a grab with her stun gun but more importantly her down smash. It's different, but once you learn the range the same thing will start to happen. At least for the nonscrubs.
The chaingrab IS everything. ZSS edgeguards Snake probably better than most characters. With our buffered F-Throw CG on Snake, your last F-Throw should put him just where you want him. If he immediately uses his cypher, just N-Air or F-Air. If he makes an attempt to recover low, D-Smash to discourage grabbing the ledge (it may lure an airdodge) and edgehog. If he's forced to use his Cypher low, we can begin setting up a Flip Jump spike. Punish his C4 recovery and reset the situation. Everytime Snake is off stage he's more likely than not going to take some damage or die. Even when he reocvers high, we can still chase him down with our Plasma Wire's boost jump.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Note that ZSS probably has the worst grabs (pivot, dash, standing, you name it) in the game, as well, so a missed grab is not fun.
-Ran
Smash Master
I'm very aware of how shoddy her recovery for her grab is. It's perfect for Snake to start off a tech chase, or if being incredibly risky a forward Smash. =p
On the same token, I respect that a ZSS player isn't going to just try to go and do a vanilla grab with no set up.
On the same token, I respect that a ZSS player isn't going to just try to go and do a vanilla grab with no set up.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Back it down, girl. The chaingrab is great (for ZSS) and affects the matchup in a significant way but 60% to snake players isn't a big deal. The edgeguarding is the most important part of the grab, but remember you have to land it you're only going to get one chance per stock. Plus, if you miss...
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
my experience with Snake makes me believe it's about a 60:40 in his advantage.
it's easy to stay outside of f-tilt range and still harass with side-b and d-smash. The problem is that snake usually makes a web of grenades to make it a pain. However, once you get the hit it's pretty easy to harass Snake hard, because he doesn't really have any options for landing, other than b-air, which our grab outranges. I'd say your best bet is to pull nades if we chase you into the air, usually it'll hit both of us and that's good for you.
edgeguarding for both characters is gonna be pretty intense. If Snake recovers anywhere from a full hop's height and below, we have the tools to kill him then and there. If he recovers above that, we should get in at least a hit or two, unless he's suuuuper high, which is what you want to do every time.
You probably shouldn't head out to fight zss off the edge, but a c4 and mortars will be a pain in the *** to overcome. seriously, just standing there and u-smashing over and over is bad enough, if you play it smart, you can get in tons of damage and probably a kill.
oh, and our kill move on Snake is gonna be b-air or side-b prolly (if we don't get an edgeguard kill). Most of the time I get edgeguard kills though using b-air to hit snake out of cypher or spiking, etc.
oh yeah, and that stun thing. if you get d-smashed, try to di the way you think she won't be. like is she crosses over, DI up-towards (where she was), if she doesn't di down-away, that way you might just dodge it, but most ZSS's should be pretty accurate with that stuff.
it's easy to stay outside of f-tilt range and still harass with side-b and d-smash. The problem is that snake usually makes a web of grenades to make it a pain. However, once you get the hit it's pretty easy to harass Snake hard, because he doesn't really have any options for landing, other than b-air, which our grab outranges. I'd say your best bet is to pull nades if we chase you into the air, usually it'll hit both of us and that's good for you.
edgeguarding for both characters is gonna be pretty intense. If Snake recovers anywhere from a full hop's height and below, we have the tools to kill him then and there. If he recovers above that, we should get in at least a hit or two, unless he's suuuuper high, which is what you want to do every time.
You probably shouldn't head out to fight zss off the edge, but a c4 and mortars will be a pain in the *** to overcome. seriously, just standing there and u-smashing over and over is bad enough, if you play it smart, you can get in tons of damage and probably a kill.
oh, and our kill move on Snake is gonna be b-air or side-b prolly (if we don't get an edgeguard kill). Most of the time I get edgeguard kills though using b-air to hit snake out of cypher or spiking, etc.
oh yeah, and that stun thing. if you get d-smashed, try to di the way you think she won't be. like is she crosses over, DI up-towards (where she was), if she doesn't di down-away, that way you might just dodge it, but most ZSS's should be pretty accurate with that stuff.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Now you're gonna read my next few sentences and not really understand why I say this matchup is 55:45 on most stages, 60:40 for ZSS on one or two, but I feel that many characters overemphasize their strengths against Snake and then can't win the actual matches because it is very hard to understand the huge gap in weight and killing ability between Snake and many light weights.
ZSS will be very reliant on combos, so I would say that nades are Snakes best friend in this matchup, because the weight/kill difference hurts us whenever we take the same damage as you, and it will break our combos if they aren't perfect. Also, if you blow yourself up with two nades that should negate the CG threat to maybe one or two regrabs. The CG damage isn't the biggest deal, the real killer is that ZSS edgeguards you very well and the CG sets up for it nicely.
Don't just pull the nades and expect us to dash into them though, I don't know about other ZSSs but Ill be using my laser, dsmash, and side b much more than in other matchups just because Snake is deadly at close range, and if you're pulling nades these moves can pop them and hurt you while we're perfectly safe (especially side b). If you get hit with a stun, expect to take 20-50% if they're good, especially if it's downsmash.
A good ZSS will also be using nair to space since it has a weird hitbox and combos very well at low to mid percents (can lead to an inescapable dsmash, which leads to yourassgettincomboedson).
The air is dangerous for Snake, as in most other matchups. However, ZSS has one of the best uairs in the game, 4 framed disjointed loveliness, and good ones will also mixup with up b trying to bait an airdodge and punish with uair or bair for a kill. Don't use your Nair on a competant opponent, they will sdi out and can uair you in the middle of your kicks.
As for stages, ZSS has a slight advantage on Snake's good stages due to everything she has on him.
I personally like CPing Brinstar (assuming Snake bans RC). There are a lot of cool things we can do on that stage, the acid forces you into the air, and the close blast zones do help to alleviate the kill difference (by 100-120 anyone should be dying on this stage).
ZSS will be very reliant on combos, so I would say that nades are Snakes best friend in this matchup, because the weight/kill difference hurts us whenever we take the same damage as you, and it will break our combos if they aren't perfect. Also, if you blow yourself up with two nades that should negate the CG threat to maybe one or two regrabs. The CG damage isn't the biggest deal, the real killer is that ZSS edgeguards you very well and the CG sets up for it nicely.
Don't just pull the nades and expect us to dash into them though, I don't know about other ZSSs but Ill be using my laser, dsmash, and side b much more than in other matchups just because Snake is deadly at close range, and if you're pulling nades these moves can pop them and hurt you while we're perfectly safe (especially side b). If you get hit with a stun, expect to take 20-50% if they're good, especially if it's downsmash.
A good ZSS will also be using nair to space since it has a weird hitbox and combos very well at low to mid percents (can lead to an inescapable dsmash, which leads to yourassgettincomboedson).
The air is dangerous for Snake, as in most other matchups. However, ZSS has one of the best uairs in the game, 4 framed disjointed loveliness, and good ones will also mixup with up b trying to bait an airdodge and punish with uair or bair for a kill. Don't use your Nair on a competant opponent, they will sdi out and can uair you in the middle of your kicks.
As for stages, ZSS has a slight advantage on Snake's good stages due to everything she has on him.
I personally like CPing Brinstar (assuming Snake bans RC). There are a lot of cool things we can do on that stage, the acid forces you into the air, and the close blast zones do help to alleviate the kill difference (by 100-120 anyone should be dying on this stage).
noradseven
Smash Lord
We win the air you win the ground, we have a cheesy grab chain against you but that can far more importantly shove you off the edge.
Your dash attacks murder us, your projectiles don't affect us too much. Our f-air/u-air can be a huge pain for you, our jab can poke out after a blocked f-tilt, if you don't dash attack us to counter our over B you will never be able to do anything, its a weird match thats very level dependent just try to get a level that makes it difficult for us to use our whip, and is small and you will probably have us on the ropes.
Watch out for the obvious d-smash alot of snake's get hit by it because they don't relise how tall the hit box is.
Ill be banning yoshi's you should probably ban RC, I will probably counter pick with jungle japes.
I have only played a few good snakes so I will need more experience to try out some more stuff. Also your u-tilt shuts us down because alot of our moves greatly push our hitbox forward and u-tilt just beats alot of stuff.
This match is in your favor I think at least, just be very wary of being caught in the air
Your dash attacks murder us, your projectiles don't affect us too much. Our f-air/u-air can be a huge pain for you, our jab can poke out after a blocked f-tilt, if you don't dash attack us to counter our over B you will never be able to do anything, its a weird match thats very level dependent just try to get a level that makes it difficult for us to use our whip, and is small and you will probably have us on the ropes.
Watch out for the obvious d-smash alot of snake's get hit by it because they don't relise how tall the hit box is.
Ill be banning yoshi's you should probably ban RC, I will probably counter pick with jungle japes.
I have only played a few good snakes so I will need more experience to try out some more stuff. Also your u-tilt shuts us down because alot of our moves greatly push our hitbox forward and u-tilt just beats alot of stuff.
This match is in your favor I think at least, just be very wary of being caught in the air
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
It is ridiculously easy to avoid utilt.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
Putting the basics aside: Snake bad in the air heavier, better options to kill etc vs ZSS difficulty to kill and being light...
To the inexperienced Snake player, ZSS has decent advantage (60:40). ZSS does have a lot of traits that we won't really be familiar with and once we start to know what those are I believe that the favor starts to turn more towards Snake's favor.
Every ZSS that I have played plays a game that involves spacing. The SideB, dsmash and B. They are decent tools for spacing and making an approach difficult. Plus, they put decent pressure on Snake making us have to on guard all the time to not eat one of those things.
But ZSS I feel has a poorer CQC in comparison to Snake. A missed grab is really bad for her. I am pretty sure that the wiffed animation lasts long enough for snake to get close and fire off a Fsmash. At the very least get an Uptilt or Ftilt. So this means that people will be wary to not use Grab as often unless we mess up, shielded ftilt (both hits) for exampe. After that you have a single ftilt that can mess ZSS up and putting her into a situation where she gets edgeguarded or cannot properly space.
Gimping ZSS is pretty much out of the question for snake as ZSS SideB could spike us off stage. When she recovers lower we can edgehog, but that will be more difficult due to the length of the tether narrowing the window to get to the ledge. But we still have a pretty good edgeguard against ZSS. Most of the time she will be grabbing the ledge and using those options to get back on stage of which Snake is very good at keeping people off stage and getting juggled.
All in all, ZSS and Snake I feel go fairly even once Snake knows the match-up better. We would know what to avoid and not get punished as easily and punish back.
Not sure how stages factor into this game.
Suit pieces are just evil once you get hit by one, but if you can prevent that from happening then they aren't really that much of a problem. PLus, if we can get at them it can be used against her.
To the inexperienced Snake player, ZSS has decent advantage (60:40). ZSS does have a lot of traits that we won't really be familiar with and once we start to know what those are I believe that the favor starts to turn more towards Snake's favor.
Every ZSS that I have played plays a game that involves spacing. The SideB, dsmash and B. They are decent tools for spacing and making an approach difficult. Plus, they put decent pressure on Snake making us have to on guard all the time to not eat one of those things.
But ZSS I feel has a poorer CQC in comparison to Snake. A missed grab is really bad for her. I am pretty sure that the wiffed animation lasts long enough for snake to get close and fire off a Fsmash. At the very least get an Uptilt or Ftilt. So this means that people will be wary to not use Grab as often unless we mess up, shielded ftilt (both hits) for exampe. After that you have a single ftilt that can mess ZSS up and putting her into a situation where she gets edgeguarded or cannot properly space.
Gimping ZSS is pretty much out of the question for snake as ZSS SideB could spike us off stage. When she recovers lower we can edgehog, but that will be more difficult due to the length of the tether narrowing the window to get to the ledge. But we still have a pretty good edgeguard against ZSS. Most of the time she will be grabbing the ledge and using those options to get back on stage of which Snake is very good at keeping people off stage and getting juggled.
All in all, ZSS and Snake I feel go fairly even once Snake knows the match-up better. We would know what to avoid and not get punished as easily and punish back.
Not sure how stages factor into this game.
Suit pieces are just evil once you get hit by one, but if you can prevent that from happening then they aren't really that much of a problem. PLus, if we can get at them it can be used against her.
Panix
Smash Ace
Zero suit is a pain, a real pain, a huge pain in the ***.
I've been waiting for this discussion for a while.
*sits and watchs*
oh and for my portion of help.
Watch out for the laser, it's her attack that she likes the follow up after because it travels slow and protects her, most ZSS usually Laser>grab because they expect you to shield.
If you play a ZSS like this just side step after the laser and grab, then tech chase.
Hope I helped
I've been waiting for this discussion for a while.
*sits and watchs*
oh and for my portion of help.
Watch out for the laser, it's her attack that she likes the follow up after because it travels slow and protects her, most ZSS usually Laser>grab because they expect you to shield.
If you play a ZSS like this just side step after the laser and grab, then tech chase.
Hope I helped
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Stay grounded, avoid all stages with platforms. I actually take Zamus to FD assuming they don't ban it on us. (For some reason they never do)
If they get you into the air, expect to take a lot of damage or KO'd if at higher %'s. This is why you want to avoid platforms. It helps them juggle, especially with that uair.
It also makes it so if you land on the platform if they semi-spike you with up-B, you're pretty much screwed no matter which getup you do.
This matchup is a pain in the *** and will test your spacing with tilts. If you can powershield her side-B's and laser (B) then it will make this matchup TONS easier.
You want to play a real punishing game and try to force Zamus to approach you. If you can't force an approach, approach SLOWLY. To fast and she will punish you.
Ftilt can hit through a badly spaced side-B. Then if you powershield and immediatly ftilt you will hit.
Avoid using nair as Zamus can relatively easy SDI and uair you out of it. That is bad. Avoid using aerials because you'll just get punished.
Avoid going off stage to gimp, it just doesn't work.
Utilt any aerial approaches. You can worry about unstaling it to kill later. There isn't really a better way to avoid her aerial approaches then a nice broken utilt.
GRENADE LIKE A MADMAN. A SANE MADMAN. You don't want to mindlessly spam them, but you want them out. A lot. They have a chance of ruining the CG for Zamus, as well as racking up damage.
Pretty much, play as safe as possible and camp.
I stick with my above ratios.
If they get you into the air, expect to take a lot of damage or KO'd if at higher %'s. This is why you want to avoid platforms. It helps them juggle, especially with that uair.
It also makes it so if you land on the platform if they semi-spike you with up-B, you're pretty much screwed no matter which getup you do.
This matchup is a pain in the *** and will test your spacing with tilts. If you can powershield her side-B's and laser (B) then it will make this matchup TONS easier.
You want to play a real punishing game and try to force Zamus to approach you. If you can't force an approach, approach SLOWLY. To fast and she will punish you.
Ftilt can hit through a badly spaced side-B. Then if you powershield and immediatly ftilt you will hit.
Avoid using nair as Zamus can relatively easy SDI and uair you out of it. That is bad. Avoid using aerials because you'll just get punished.
Avoid going off stage to gimp, it just doesn't work.
Utilt any aerial approaches. You can worry about unstaling it to kill later. There isn't really a better way to avoid her aerial approaches then a nice broken utilt.
GRENADE LIKE A MADMAN. A SANE MADMAN. You don't want to mindlessly spam them, but you want them out. A lot. They have a chance of ruining the CG for Zamus, as well as racking up damage.
Pretty much, play as safe as possible and camp.
I stick with my above ratios.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
I hate this matchup. That Dsmash scares the hell out of me and I suck at avoiding the inevitable uair upB looping pile of doom death. You give her one ****ing second and she's all over your ***. I like to spam 'splosions. It's like Snake's version of the spring lol.
Fatal vs. Dazwa
Note that Fatal also lost to Snakeee's ZSS at Apex.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2BOs5DujOw
My unbiased opinion about this matchup is that it's either 50:50 or 55:45 (Zero Suit Samus' favor). After I see more matches like the Fatal vs. Dazwa match that don't involve players whose names are Fatal, I may change my mind. Tbh, I'm not sure if he knows the matchup very well.
Some very notable Zero Suits think this matchup is 70:30 in her favor.
Note that Fatal also lost to Snakeee's ZSS at Apex.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2BOs5DujOw
My unbiased opinion about this matchup is that it's either 50:50 or 55:45 (Zero Suit Samus' favor). After I see more matches like the Fatal vs. Dazwa match that don't involve players whose names are Fatal, I may change my mind. Tbh, I'm not sure if he knows the matchup very well.
Some very notable Zero Suits think this matchup is 70:30 in her favor.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
I do not think she hard counters us. We are able to get some hits in no matter how well she spaces; and we don't need much to put her into KO %'s.
60:40 at best (soft counter) but I stick with my 55:45 or 50:50 statements.
60:40 at best (soft counter) but I stick with my 55:45 or 50:50 statements.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
B-Air > Sexual Tension > B-Air is my favorite combo against Snake too.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CyYE4a5V8g Third match was better(Dazwa hoggles at 3:21)
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
lolwut. you can't even see it, let alone try to avoid it.
this video is pretty much the poster child of exactly why you shouldn't ever recover low...
The **** thing outranges our bair. Bair. How is it easy to avoid again?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
1. Post below mine
2. Snake's kill moves become kind of predictable at high percents in general. Unless his explosive game rocks, (hard vs. ZSS) ftilt and jab will probably be stale and you can DI them until 140%-150%ish and not die. The only thing you need to worry about are his aerials (lol), utilt, and usmash. Don't grab and fsmash isn't an issue. Bair outranges utilt, so if you play it smart, it will be hard for him to kill you.
2. Snake's kill moves become kind of predictable at high percents in general. Unless his explosive game rocks, (hard vs. ZSS) ftilt and jab will probably be stale and you can DI them until 140%-150%ish and not die. The only thing you need to worry about are his aerials (lol), utilt, and usmash. Don't grab and fsmash isn't an issue. Bair outranges utilt, so if you play it smart, it will be hard for him to kill you.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Bair is great for pressuring Snake if you do it right. I usually jump behind him and b-air to be safe though.
And lmao at the guy that said "CQC". This isn't a MGS boss battle
.
TwentyTwo
Smash Ace
Can you chaingrab us at any percentage before 64%, or is this like pikachu CG stuff where you have to start at like 0%?
=/And lmao at the guy that said "CQC". This isn't a MGS boss battle
CQC is used pretty often on some character boards. It's easier to type than constantly saying "close range game" or something like that.
Any percentage before approximately 54-55% because the last grab is probably going to be a D-Throw or B-Throw. OH GOD, I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING.
Catching Snake on the edge results in a lost stock, no? What if our last regrab was on the ledge and we forced an air release?
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Then we C4 recover....
I'd still rathers blow myself up to 43% and camp near the center and fight from there then get CG'd to an edge and risk being gimped.
^ I keep getting I'm told stupid for doing this, but w/e
I'd still rathers blow myself up to 43% and camp near the center and fight from there then get CG'd to an edge and risk being gimped.
^ I keep getting I'm told stupid for doing this, but w/e
Snake can C4 recover an air release from the edge now? That's certainly news to me. How difficult is it to allign the C4 properly under you when your momentum is pushing you away?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
You can. The blast radius is pretty large.
TwentyTwo
Smash Ace
Catching Snake out of his cypher, can make us have to c4 to recover yes, unless you instant grab break with the cypher hitting you, but I don't think this is possible with a tether grab. It's a bit more complicated than that with the tether grab involved though as you have to space with the tip of the grab, and if you bring us so we're on stage, can you still air release us, I wouldn't think so, but I'm not sure. But in your situation, it would just be a normal recovery situation.
An Air Release would kill Snake on the walkoff in Delfino, Castle Siege, and Distant Planet though.
Stages with low pits or small sides would make his recovery from an edge air release difficult as well. Like Lylat Cruise or Yoshi's Island (Brawl).
Edit: Wow, brainfart about catching cypher recovery. NVM.
Stages with low pits or small sides would make his recovery from an edge air release difficult as well. Like Lylat Cruise or Yoshi's Island (Brawl).
Edit: Wow, brainfart about catching cypher recovery. NVM.
TwentyTwo
Smash Ace
On those stages though, we'd have ground under our feet, and I'm pretty sure ZSS can't force an air release on Snake. Let me test, real quick
EDIT: Yeah, unless there is some trick involved, ZSS can't force an Air Release on Snake if the there is ground under his feet.