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ZSS Matchup Discussion

SuSa

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Lylat isn't to hard, we just DI and tech underneath the stage.

Yoshi Island (Brawl) sometimes even saves us from having to C4 recover. Then we just DI + SDI (if needed) towards the stage and you can tech the side of the stage.


It's all about timing and knowing how to C4 recover. I recently brawled someone who didn't know you have to hold down+towards the stage and just mash B to recover.

Alternatively you can get fancy by holding towards stage, quickly doing down-B, holding more towards the stage for like .5 seconds, then down-B again. DI+SDI the hit towards the stage, and then tech-jump.

I need to get like 15-20 more good clips of my Snake for a combo video. No fair BS, semi-viable things, and awesome techs.

On the walkoff's, does Zamus have a guarenteed air release or something. I think Snake is to big for her to force an air release..
 

Hence

Smash Ace
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I just checked over my data and she cannot force an air release on Snake. She can, though, force ground break jabs.

Edit:

The mechanics of grab breaking is as follows:
If you are currently in the process of pummeling, your opponent will break to the ground.
If your opponent breaks the grab with a jump input and you are not in the process of pummeling, your opponent will break to the air. (Note: Joystick Up counts as jump input even if Tap Jump is set to Off)
If your opponent breaks the grab with non-jump input or no-input, they will break to ground if and only if they are tall enough, otherwise they will break to the air.
 

Hence

Smash Ace
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745
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Curse your 1 frame jab.....

You can force a ground-release jab on everyone, correct?
Not exactly; credits to FadedImage for this information.

Grab Release Combos

The following is a summation of what happens to every character when they are released from ZSS's grab, and what ZSS can do thereafter. If you aren't looking for a particular character's information, check the bottom reference lists.​

The mechanics of grab breaking is as follows:
If you are currently in the process of pummeling, your opponent will break to the ground.
If your opponent breaks the grab with a jump input and you are not in the process of pummeling, your opponent will break to the air. (Note: Joystick Up counts as jump input even if Tap Jump is set to Off)
If your opponent breaks the grab with non-jump input or no-input, they will break to ground if and only if they are tall enough, otherwise they will break to the air.

Format:
<Character> (<No-Input Break Type>):
<Slowest Guaranteed Aerial for Air Break> - <Guaranteed Dash Grab/Attack for Air Break?> - <Guaranteed Jab for Ground Break?>​

Mario (Air):
U-Air - N - Y
Luigi (Air):
None - N - Y
Peach (Ground):
None - N - Y
Bowser (Ground):
None - Y - Y
Donkey Kong (Ground):
F-Air - N - N
Diddy Kong (Ground):
None - Y - Y
Yoshi (Air):
None - N - N
Wario (Air):
N-Air - Y - Y
Link (Ground):
None - Y - Y
Zelda (Ground):
None - N - N
Sheik (Ground):
None - N - Y
Ganondorf (Ground):
None - Y - Y
Toon Link (Air):
F-Air - N - Y
Samus (Ground):
None - N - Y
Zero Suit Samus (Ground):
None - Y - Y
Pit (Ground):
None - N - N
Ice Climber (Air):
F-Air - N - Y
R.O.B. (Ground):
None - N - Y
Kirby (Air):
U-Air - N - Y
Metaknight (Air):
None - Y - Y
King Dedede (Ground):
None - N - N
Olimar (Air):
U-Air - N - Y
Fox (Ground):
None - N - Y
Falco (Ground):
None - Y - Y
Wolf (Ground):
None - N - Y
Captain Falcon (Ground):
None - Y - Y
Pikachu (Air):
None - Y - N
Charizard (Ground):
U-Air - Y - Y
Squirtle (Air):
None - Y - Y
Ivysaur (Air):
U-Air - N - Y
Lucario (Ground):
None - N - Y
Jigglypuff (Air):
U-Air - N - N
Marth (Ground):
None - N - Y
Ike (Ground):
U-Air - Y - N
Ness (Air):
F-Air - N - Y
Lucas (Air):
U-Air - Y - Y
Game and Watch (Air):
F-Air - N - Y
Snake (Ground):
None - N - Y
Sonic (Ground):
None - Y - Y

Special Cases:

The Wario Infinite:
Wario can be infinited by air-releasing him and then re-grabbing him as he comes down. This process can be amplified greatly by performing a D-Smash to stun Wario, and then re-grabbing him. However, a D-Smash is not guaranteed to hit Wario after an air-release. As such, the only true infinite on Wario is pummeling -> air-release -> re-grab.

I highly recommend simply D-Smash -> F-Air if the Wario doesn't know how to escape the D-Smash and just a F-Air if they do. The re-grab on Wario requires extremely strict timing (probably 1-2 frame window). Not only that, but you will be hard pressed to grab a Wario in the first place and even if you do, if it's under a platform, it's all for naught.​

Squirtle: These re-grabs can be done while standing, thus, they are infinite.

Captain Falcon: It's possible for the Captain Falcon to shield a dash attack, but in order to dodge a dashgrab, he must spotdodge precisely as he lands.

Ness / Lucas: When ground released, you can not only Jab, but also U-Tilt (only first hit), D-Tilt, F-Tilt, Dash Attack, and U-Smash.

Reference Lists:

Characters who CANNOT be jabbed after a ground release:
Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Zelda, Pit, King Dedede, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Ike.

Characters who no-pummel break to the air AND get dash grabbed (Always chaingrab-able):
Metaknight, Pikachu, Squirtle, Lucas.

Characters who get dash grabbed BUT no-input break to the ground (chaingrab-able IF they resist):
Bowser, Diddy Kong, Link, Ganondorf, Zero Suit Samus, Falco, Charizard, Ike, Sonic.

Characters who no-pummel break to the air AND can be hit with an aerial (Always guaranteed aerial):
Mario, Wario, Toon Link, Ice Climber, Kirby, Olimar, Ivysaur, Jigglypuff, Ness, Lucas, Game and Watch.

Characters who can be hit with an aerial BUT no-input break to the ground (guaranteed aerial IF they resist):
Donkey Kong, Charizard, Ike.
 

SuSa

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I can't seem to find why the characters who cannot be jabbed afterwards are similiar in the fact that they cannot be jabbed.... since everyone but Bowser, Lucas, and Ness have the same amount of frames of 'helplessness' after grab breaks.

Lucas/Ness have -10 IIRC Bowser has +10
 

Hence

Smash Ace
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I can't seem to find why the characters who cannot be jabbed afterwards are similiar in the fact that they cannot be jabbed.... since everyone but Bowser, Lucas, and Ness have the same amount of frames of 'helplessness' after grab breaks.

Lucas/Ness have -10 IIRC Bowser has +10
They break further away than the rest of the cast.

Jabs won't connect immediately after a ground release. Not to mention D3 can just shieldgrab if you attempt to jab.
 

SuSa

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I forgot about distance from a grab release.

Talk about epic fail. <3

(Would Snake's 2 frame jab (IIRC) be able to do this as well depending how far the opponent breaks away? I feel we should test this..)

IIRC (yet again) to raise a shield it takes 3-4 frames?

And our Jab leads to an ftilt... most of the time....
 

Hence

Smash Ace
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I forgot about distance from a grab release.

Talk about epic fail. <3

(Would Snake's 2 frame jab (IIRC) be able to do this as well depending how far the opponent breaks away? I feel we should test this..)

IIRC (yet again) to raise a shield it takes 3-4 frames?

And our Jab leads to an ftilt... most of the time....
Snake's grab game is much better than ours, though. Wouldn't you rather D-Throw tech chase if you can get a grab in? Ground released jabs would just decay your F-Tilt more. :/

Although, I'd try Ground Release > Jab > U-Tilt for killing.
 

SuSa

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We don't have a guarenteed ftilt from dthrow. ;)

Meaning:

Snake -- Opponent-- Ledge of stage --------------||| Death Zone

I'd rathers grab release > jab > ftilt > KO at certain %'s even over an fthrow or dthrow.

Also Jab > utilt isn't guarenteed - it may work however. But utilt is 7 frames, ftilt is 4 frames, and even ftilt isn't guarenteed always from a jab.

Although if ftilt is stale and we're facing the ledge of a stage, I'd dthrow because thats basically a guarenteeed utilt....

Still, some characters can be harder to tech chase given certain things... so yeah.... lol

/rambling
 

SamuraiPanda

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I don't know how to do this matchup very well, and its extremely annoying. Alls I know is that dash attacking when they come from the air (and not charging the gun) is one of the only ways I can consistently get inside of Zamus. And dash attacking her while she's on the ground (and not already doing an attack) isn't the best of ideas because her downsmash stops you right in your tracks.

Also, she can grab you if you ftilt her shield with both hits. Uber annoying.
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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So everyone's familiar with DI'ng the Icies holding grab to spike/Falco's CG to spike to tech the stage right? Zamus can Dsmash and Down B spike with proper spacing can't they? (I think I've seen it....the timing looked tight though.) Can you DI and tech that if it is possible?
 

Hence

Smash Ace
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So everyone's familiar with DI'ng the Icies holding grab to spike/Falco's CG to spike to tech the stage right? Zamus can Dsmash and Down B spike with proper spacing can't they? (I think I've seen it....the timing looked tight though.) Can you DI and tech that if it is possible?
It depends on the stage, the angle of our Flip Jump, and how close you are to the stage while D-Smashed. Possible, yes. If done correctly, though, it's one of the strongest spikes in the game.
 
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Dash Lock works on Snake after CG ends (40%+) until roughly 85% (Longer of DA is decayed) and sends offstage at kind of a downward trajectory.

fthrow > fthrow > fthrow > fthrow > fthrow > dthrow

IIRC. maybe more fthrows. lol
Actually, she'll likely just fthrow you offstage.
 

Hence

Smash Ace
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Dash Lock works on Snake after CG ends (40%+) until roughly 85% (Longer of DA is decayed) and sends offstage at kind of a downward trajectory.
You've released the beast straight into the heart of "HOW2COMBATPROBLEM" land. Beta Beast, might I add. Now they'll expect it and avoid dash attacks at all cost. How...could you, sfp? :(
 
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You've released the beast straight into the heart of "HOW2COMBATPROBLEM" land. Beta Beast, might I add. Now they'll expect it and avoid dash attacks at all cost. How...could you, sfp? :(
It's a matchup discussion and it isn't hard to land a dash attack. And it's not really beta; it is confirmed.
 

nevershootme

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Unless F-Throw is decayed and I want a damaging throw.
there are no kill throws for zss, just a d-throw mind read u-air sweetspot vertical kill.

I do recommend watching the zss vs snake match videos between nick riddle and lambchops. it would at most provide insight to understanding the matchup.

btw: surviving zss double d-smash into running b-air is easy and you can't seriously die from it if you get caught from it at 120% (Unless you're ridiculously dumb to not realize it. even a DDD can survive it. only light characters take the major hit from it.

from my partial experience (Been a bit too long since i last played Nick Riddle, and my own personal knowledge from playing zss), this is a spacing and exploitation game between the 2 characters. one thing you should keep in mind is the deadzone of her side-b, in specific frames, you can be inside her whip string and it won't do jack against you, meaning a free hit on her. if she's falling and doing side-b, you can always dash attack it too.

There are 2 situations in which your recovery can be screwed over by zss (at the bottom of the stage). one situation is a d-smash by edge (if tethering it isn't sufficient) into a b-air stage spike. be prepared to tech that sucker on time. The other situation is a well timed down-b after stun release, that's an instant spike right there.

REMEMBER: YOU CAN ESCAPE up-b drag down into d-smash with proper smash DI or perfect tech-rolling.
 

Hence

Smash Ace
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there are no kill throws for zss, just a d-throw mind read u-air sweetspot vertical kill.
Unless F-Throw is decayed and I want a damaging throw.
REMEMBER: YOU CAN ESCAPE up-b drag down into d-smash with proper smash DI or perfect tech-rolling.
Our Plasma Wire can be easily SDI'd and the Plasma Wire meteor is techable. Either way, ZSS cannot know for sure whether you'll land behind her or in front of her after you've been hit with an Up+B spike that you didn't tech.
 
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