ZSS General Discussion

[Supermodel From Paris]

Of course not.

OK, so there you go

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I hope you're not earnestly implying that ZSS has a favorable record vs MK ...

 

[DeLux]

I thought that's what you were doing Gheb based off the results logic

 

[~ Gheb ~]

But MK has a favorable record vs ZSS.

 

[DeLux]

Salem at Apex is the top level of play for ZSS no?

99.99% sure that he had a positive record results-wise on MK, but I can double check that bracket if you want

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah please cherry pick results from the one occasion where he beat everybody, that's what I call representative.

 

[DeLux]

I mean, I know for a fact that Quik lost to MJG one set and NR lost to 9B one set, so let's say we added in more ZSS players considered top level, still a positive level on MK

How far do you want to go down from "top level" before it's not cherry picking?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think the results from quiksilver, Salem, Nick Riddle and Kamemushi vs MK during the last year are a good place to look at.

 

[DeLux]

So you think old results are a more accurate representation of the modern metagame than the modern results?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't consider results that aren't older than 12 months outdated. And who said that you should disregard the "more modern" results? I said you shouldn't neglect the other results.

 

[DeLux]

You said the "last year" aka 2012
The current year 2013, ZSS won Apex by slaying all the MKs. Welcome to the new world where results indicate ZSS is godlike

Bair why 2013

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Bair why 2013

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I forgot trolls were allowed to become mods nowadays. Nvm

 

[Chronodiver Lokii]

This is terrible advice, because it presumes that rolling and get-up attacks were the problem.

The problem is that Ally is mentally prepared to respond to every eventuality in those situations on reaction. It would be better to just say, don't get caught blocking ftilt, and don't get caught in knockdown. And if you're going to get caught in those situations, don't be predictable about how you escape them.

I don't think I ever saw V uair oos, though, actually. That's a good option that a lot of players don't give enough respect to.

PH00T?! WHAT? YOU EXIST?
O A O
Its been a while dude

 

[NickRiddle]

Gheb, okay, I'll give you that my idea of ZSS beating ICs is because I do well vs. ESAM's ICs. (So much so that he never uses them vs. me in tournament.)
And, yes, I'm aware I lost to 9B, I'll give you that. You want ZSS to lose to ICs? Fine.
However, ZSS doesn't lose to Snake. Every other ZSS is complete *** at the MU. I only lose to Ally's Snake because it's... well... Ally... Fatal refused to use Snake vs. me at Apex because my record vs. Snake is so ****ing good.

I am the only ZSS with a positive record vs. EVERY SNAKE except for Ally. Even Salem, the ZSS demi-god, loses to Snakes like False... People are just bad vs. the character because you can't just flail your legs around, that gives you 1/5 your kill %.

 

[DeLux]

Didn't use enough Bair imo against 9B

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Dazwa plays the Snake MU pretty well too, when he plays Brawl. He'll be gone for months or years and come back for one tournament and go to last hit with Fatal.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I acknowledge and accept your opinion, Nick.

 

[Dnyce]

Bair why 2013

 

[Dekillsage]

I don't think Zss beats Snake, but I do agree with Nick saying the other Zss players don't really play the match up correctly. You guys got this -_^b

 

[fkacyan]

Nick

Risk vs Reward

This is why ICs and Snake beat ZSS

it isn't hard.

 

[NickRiddle]

Snake beats everybody but ICs and MK, risk-reward.

 

[Dekillsage]

Snake takes a risk and gets what? 21% ftilt(potentially more off dthrow reads) I mess up and get dsmashed into combo video -> juggle. *shrug*

 

[fkacyan]

Snake beats everybody but ICs and MK, risk-reward.

Diddy beats him, D3 and Falco go even with him in that particular matchup as far as risk/reward goes.

if you're playing snake and your in a position where a whiff gets you dsmashed, well, what the **** ar eyou doing you ******* ****** back the **** up and throw more grenades.

hard r

 

[Dekillsage]

But you said risk reward

 

[fkacyan]

But you said risk reward

my brain hurts

risk != high risk

Snake gets a lot of reward for not taking much of a risk. ZSS gets very little reward in comparison for hig-risk.

 

[Dakpo]

Yeah, you have a point. BTW, V's item game has really gotten ridiculous. V, can you like, download your brain and send it to me on a usb drive?

Thiss x1000
If I can regain an awesome armor game, then I believe I can jump back to being one of the best zss. In all honesty I play very very similar to salem besides armor game. If I can do that, then Im golden.
Shoutouts to quick, V115, and Salem. Everyone from texas said your armor/jab game completely breaks their matchup knowledge

 

[Dekillsage]

my brain hurts

risk != high risk

Snake gets a lot of reward for not taking much of a risk. ZSS gets very little reward in comparison for hig-risk.

That's what I like to hear

 

[Coolwhip]

Wassup everyone!

 

[Snakeee]

Gheb, okay, I'll give you that my idea of ZSS beating ICs is because I do well vs. ESAM's ICs. (So much so that he never uses them vs. me in tournament.)
And, yes, I'm aware I lost to 9B, I'll give you that. You want ZSS to lose to ICs? Fine.
However, ZSS doesn't lose to Snake. Every other ZSS is complete *** at the MU. I only lose to Ally's Snake because it's... well... Ally... Fatal refused to use Snake vs. me at Apex because my record vs. Snake is so ****ing good.

I am the only ZSS with a positive record vs. EVERY SNAKE except for Ally. Even Salem, the ZSS demi-god, loses to Snakes like False... People are just bad vs. the character because you can't just flail your legs around, that gives you 1/5 your kill %.

Yeah I agree with this, and I have a lot of practice in the MU as well and it is very different than other MU's in quite a few aspects. I can see Salem possibly having trouble here because you can't rely on d-smashes for spacing too much...its still useful, but you have to be very conscious of when Snake is in punishing range as well as factor in Snake's projectiles that are in play.

Basically I think ZSS has the edge, but can get punished really hard and potentially lose a stock very early if you're not careful and very experienced in the matchup. That said, you can't be afraid to make your move when its the right time to either

 

[Kewkky]

"I'm good and everyone else isn't" shouldn't really be an argument used in a matchup discussion. Just saying.

 

[Snakeee]

Oh, no I was disregarding that part XD .

 

[NickRiddle]

I didn't say I was better.
I said I was better at the MU.
Dazwa and I were the only two ZSS to have good records vs. Snake, and Dazwa quit.
Either I am doing things other ZSS players aren't, or Snake players all choke hard vs. me.

 

[Kewkky]

I didn't say I was better.
I said I was better at the MU.
Dazwa and I were the only two ZSS to have good records vs. Snake, and Dazwa quit.
Either I am doing things other ZSS players aren't, or Snake players all choke hard vs. me.

Maybe they all choke hard vs you because you don't do things the same way everyone else does. Or I guess it could be that every other ZSS isn't at the point where they know exactly what to do with her tools against other Snake players like you and Dazwa do. I don't know if I should attribute it to you being better than everyone, or all the Snake players not dedicating the same amount of time to the ZSS MU as you have on the Snake MU. I mean, if you're okay with going ZSS every time, but they choose to CP a different character instead, it sounds like they're not getting any better at figuring you out as a player with Snake.

 

[NickRiddle]

So... Other ZSS losing to these same players who "aren't putting time into the MU" means nothing... Got it. Oh, and me doing things to mess up Snake players while we play isn't indicative of me knowing the MU better... I now understand completely.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Snake holds grenade and walks slowly at you

What do?

 

[NickRiddle]

Either space d-smash, space nair, or nothing. You can sometimes go for a grab if you want to be risky.

 

[Snakeee]

Snake holds grenade and walks slowly at you

What do?

What NR said + play the Jaws theme

 

[Kewkky]

So... Other ZSS losing to these same players who "aren't putting time into the MU" means nothing... Got it. Oh, and me doing things to mess up Snake players while we play isn't indicative of me knowing the MU better... I now understand completely.

I don't know where you're getting those summaries from, but you know that it's not what I meant. I said that you and Dazwa probably play in a way that the other ZSS players don't, that the Snake players aren't accustomed to. You yourself said that they refuse to use Snake against you, pretty much saying that they refuse to get better and instead choose a different character that makes them feel more comfortable.

 

[ぱみゅ]

What NR said + play the Jaws theme

After posts like this I only wish I were good at editting videos...