PEACE7
Smash Champion
Thank you so much for this i appreciate it
And yea @ techchase rarely but it happens lol
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ZSS General Discussion
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And yea @ techchase rarely but it happens lol
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Mostly because Sheik rarely happens
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I've never seen that before. Let me take a very wild guess:
It looks like he is holding down when hit. It is possibly related to the crouch cancelling discovered last year or so (holding down reduces hitlag by a third) and SDIing at the same time.
Crouch cancelling lives?
It looks like he is holding down when hit. It is possibly related to the crouch cancelling discovered last year or so (holding down reduces hitlag by a third) and SDIing at the same time.
Crouch cancelling lives?
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Maybe it's like some sort of frame perfect crouch cancel?
But I doubt it cause they were still able to DI properly
...Unless it's like they DI with the analog and do a 1-frame crouch cancel with the C-stick?
But I doubt it cause they were still able to DI properly
...Unless it's like they DI with the analog and do a 1-frame crouch cancel with the C-stick?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I'm willing to do some testing, but I need a few more ideas first.
Talk, people!
Talk, people!
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Derp I just realized Mario is the one at high percents. So umm..?
OK, so upon further inspection it looks like this is just a video showing off basic game mechanics and stale moves.
OK, so upon further inspection it looks like this is just a video showing off basic game mechanics and stale moves.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Lol yeah that's probably what's going on
****ing japanese confusing us LOL
Dem Apex 2013-level mindgames XD
****ing japanese confusing us LOL
Dem Apex 2013-level mindgames XD
ぱみゅ
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Yeah, someone said that it could be just a stalling demonstration, it would make sense because "ワンパターン" is read as "One Pattern"...
It is weird, though, it looks like they were DI'ing (and holy cow, the difference of a fresh and a decayed Fsmash from Ike is tremendous).
It is weird, though, it looks like they were DI'ing (and holy cow, the difference of a fresh and a decayed Fsmash from Ike is tremendous).
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
So I found a lot of interesting things tonight involving items and platform pressure.
You can use items to basically force ledgeslip from any position (including bananas) by throwing it at their shield and performing an aerial after it depending on where they are on the platform (if they're closer to the center, you'll need fair to do it).
In addition, throwing a banana at the bottom-front of Diddy's shield will always poke and make him slip, even if he's tilting downwards (lol).
You can use items to basically force ledgeslip from any position (including bananas) by throwing it at their shield and performing an aerial after it depending on where they are on the platform (if they're closer to the center, you'll need fair to do it).
In addition, throwing a banana at the bottom-front of Diddy's shield will always poke and make him slip, even if he's tilting downwards (lol).
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
That part about suitpieces is amazing. Uh, which stage(s) did you test on? Timing changes as platform height varies, so maybe it'll work on BF and Lylat but not on PS1/YI:B
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I actually removed that because i realized they could roll (sadface) but it's still a cool gimmick. Tested it on BF only.
For those of you wondering, if yout hrow a suitpiece upwards at a shielding opponent, they are locked into their shield for 11 frames before they can do anything else. You can catch it and throw it back up at them, which forces them to do something. If they don't, their shield will break very very fast.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
You could probably still get them with something like throw suitpiece upwards x2 --> usmash since I doubt they'll roll immediately. And the usmash would catch a spotdodge
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
There's a more reliable trick, actually:
I don't know if you know this (I can make a video if you awnt) but ZSS' shorthop is about the exact height of the battlefield platform. You can shorthop, and at the height of it, drop a suit piece so the hitbox is only out for a split second before becoming stationary on the platform (think like toon link). You can then QUICKLY tap Z to pick it up again, throw it forward, (basically an instant toss) and do an aerial of choice (uair, first hit fair, nair?) to break/poke any shield that isn't more or less full already (and many that are full).
This works very well, because when you have a suit piece, you are scary enough that the guy will probably want to shield when you land beneath him. You also don't have to be stationary to start this, necessarily, as when you drop or throw an item, your momentum for that moment is completely malleable (in other words, if you're jumping forward and throw an item, you can instantly change your momentum to the opposite direction if you want).
I don't know if you know this (I can make a video if you awnt) but ZSS' shorthop is about the exact height of the battlefield platform. You can shorthop, and at the height of it, drop a suit piece so the hitbox is only out for a split second before becoming stationary on the platform (think like toon link). You can then QUICKLY tap Z to pick it up again, throw it forward, (basically an instant toss) and do an aerial of choice (uair, first hit fair, nair?) to break/poke any shield that isn't more or less full already (and many that are full).
This works very well, because when you have a suit piece, you are scary enough that the guy will probably want to shield when you land beneath him. You also don't have to be stationary to start this, necessarily, as when you drop or throw an item, your momentum for that moment is completely malleable (in other words, if you're jumping forward and throw an item, you can instantly change your momentum to the opposite direction if you want).
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
A vid would be nice to gimme an idea of the timing.
I'll have to practice all this **** after the 27th unfortunately. ****ing midterms
I'll have to practice all this **** after the 27th unfortunately. ****ing midterms
ぱみゅ
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Actually it sounds like it could be a good setup for a techchase-like situation, you can either react to a roll/spotdodge or try to read their jump, or do more suitpiece tricks.
I can already see its potential.
I can already see its potential.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I think the best way is probably just instant dropping it onto the platform then picking it up with fair. This usually eats the shield and is very easy (or forces a ledge slip which is also nice). Naturally you have the suit piece at the end, too, which means you can whack them with a forward toss at the end.
Actually, there's a lot more item stuff to share. I was gonna make a video (I even took a bunch of footage) but it isn't really that necessary... I can just list a bunch of stuff here. None of this should be "news" but a lot of it matters and isn't used much.
1. As mentioned above, ZSS can instantly drop with no bounce, but a hitbox still, an item onto most platforms from a short hop. She can drop a banana on the top platform of BF at the top of her full hop in the same way. You cannot do this with a suit piece unless you are doing ZSS' back jump (flip) animation. You can immediately do an aerial or tap Z again to pick it up.
2. Diddy's shield can easily be poked with a banana from below. This should be followed up with usmash no matter what: if you mess the spacing up and don't poke the shield, the shieldstun and poke from usmash will cause his hurtbox to eventually be exposed to the banana and he'll slip and get hit anyway.
3. In the same vein, you can throw a banana at the front of Diddy's shield on a platform, and then do first hit fair to force an edge slip and reset with neutral B.
3. ZSS can re-catch a banana with a weak glide toss after throwing it. The input is tilt forward->shield->A, then recatch. Note that a banana on shield doesn't give you much advantage and ZSS' grab is booty so there isn't much use for this to be honest.
4. Item tosses in the air allow a brief moment of momentum cancelling. This is most commonly used during recovery, but can also be used like a b-reversal on-stage. You can also throw an item up or down and instantly start moving the opposite direction with almost all of your momentum in tact, then wavebounce, etc.
5. Suit pieces provide 11 frames of shieldstun, which is higher than a banana and most other items. In other words, after a suit piece hits a shield you have 11 frames to follow up (actually a bit more, obviously). You can usually force a ledgeslip on a platform doing this as mentioned above.
6. You can cancel skid animation by picking up an item.
Actually, there's a lot more item stuff to share. I was gonna make a video (I even took a bunch of footage) but it isn't really that necessary... I can just list a bunch of stuff here. None of this should be "news" but a lot of it matters and isn't used much.
1. As mentioned above, ZSS can instantly drop with no bounce, but a hitbox still, an item onto most platforms from a short hop. She can drop a banana on the top platform of BF at the top of her full hop in the same way. You cannot do this with a suit piece unless you are doing ZSS' back jump (flip) animation. You can immediately do an aerial or tap Z again to pick it up.
2. Diddy's shield can easily be poked with a banana from below. This should be followed up with usmash no matter what: if you mess the spacing up and don't poke the shield, the shieldstun and poke from usmash will cause his hurtbox to eventually be exposed to the banana and he'll slip and get hit anyway.
3. In the same vein, you can throw a banana at the front of Diddy's shield on a platform, and then do first hit fair to force an edge slip and reset with neutral B.
3. ZSS can re-catch a banana with a weak glide toss after throwing it. The input is tilt forward->shield->A, then recatch. Note that a banana on shield doesn't give you much advantage and ZSS' grab is booty so there isn't much use for this to be honest.
4. Item tosses in the air allow a brief moment of momentum cancelling. This is most commonly used during recovery, but can also be used like a b-reversal on-stage. You can also throw an item up or down and instantly start moving the opposite direction with almost all of your momentum in tact, then wavebounce, etc.
5. Suit pieces provide 11 frames of shieldstun, which is higher than a banana and most other items. In other words, after a suit piece hits a shield you have 11 frames to follow up (actually a bit more, obviously). You can usually force a ledgeslip on a platform doing this as mentioned above.
6. You can cancel skid animation by picking up an item.
Dakpo
Smash Lord
Well guys, It looks like my time has come. Brawl was a fantastic game to get into, and I met a lot of people. I might creep on the boards every once and a while. Peace out zss boards, and peace out smash scene! <3
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Really though?
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
dakpo pls
dakpo pls
quiKsilverItaly
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
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- 268
dakpo stahp
PEACE7
Smash Champion
well this is depressing...
![[FBC] Papa Mink](/data/avatars/l/166/166410.jpg?1363023093){kind=avatar}
[FBC] Papa Mink
Smash Legend
But why? You finally got in the bbr, zss metagame is expanding.
Well, follow your heart. I'll see you on fb I'm sure.
Dakpo
Smash Lord
School is destroying me, and I dislike the metagame where I'm at ( a long with certain players) So I need to focus on practicing music and studying. Thanks for all the love, I might show up to random stuffz
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
I saw those friendlies, and I saw the FBL shirt!
You stale bair too much
You stale bair too much
PEACE7
Smash Champion
So why did this happen i seen this a long time ago but never understood why it happens its similar to when you fthrow someone in halberd through the laser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTLeEfkM6V4&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTLeEfkM6V4&feature=plcp
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Iirc if the thrower is in contact with a wind hitbox during their throw then they get frozen...but I don't know what would have caused the wind effect in this example o.o
It looks like it was caused by the suitpiece hitting Link...or Link's hitbox. You know how when someone gets sent flying they become a projectile...like in dubs? I think that hitbox might have clashed with the suitpiece hitbox causing a wind effect or something? idk
It looks like it was caused by the suitpiece hitting Link...or Link's hitbox. You know how when someone gets sent flying they become a projectile...like in dubs? I think that hitbox might have clashed with the suitpiece hitbox causing a wind effect or something? idk
PEACE7
Smash Champion
So it's a stun jacket kind of thing like Marth when he counters and gets activated by nado without hitting the MK, he gets equipped with a stun jacket so when Marth lands the next hit the MK will freeze for a split second. It works with falcos reflector and tl's *dair just to name a few. So it might be something like that but with the suit piece? It's interesting we should test how to do it in purpose and see if we can use it in any helpful way, maybe we could freeze our opponent instead of us getting frozen might be completely wrong tho lol but the big *** difference is that I never seen it freeze for such a long period of time.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Let's talk about dsmash combos.
You can do a lot at 0% with a dsmash most people don't do. Most people take the bair and walk away or grab.
Here are a few:
dsmashx2->utilt
dsmashx1->backside nair flip->fair(39%)
dsmashx1->backside nair flip->utilt
dsmashx1->fbair->utilt
And at mid-high percents, we have one that can do 49%:
dsmashx2->backside nair flip->double jump fair -- yes, this works. it's easier and more consistent on big targets but it is 4 consecutive inescapable (baring sdi) hits on bowser, dedede, snake etc.
You can also charge the second dsmash and still do an aerial.
You can do a lot at 0% with a dsmash most people don't do. Most people take the bair and walk away or grab.
Here are a few:
dsmashx2->utilt
dsmashx1->backside nair flip->fair(39%)
dsmashx1->backside nair flip->utilt
dsmashx1->fbair->utilt
And at mid-high percents, we have one that can do 49%:
dsmashx2->backside nair flip->double jump fair -- yes, this works. it's easier and more consistent on big targets but it is 4 consecutive inescapable (baring sdi) hits on bowser, dedede, snake etc.
You can also charge the second dsmash and still do an aerial.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
I guess you don't watch me play lol. At low percents I either dsmash x2 --> fair, dsmash x2 --> dash attack --> utilt or (on fast fallers ) dsmash chain into one of those, or (only if it actually works, ie the fastfallers but not Snake/DK) dsmash chain into DAL into utilt/dtilt, usually does like 76%
In fact at just the last tournament I got dtilt --> dsmash x4 --> dash attack x3 --> dtilt --> uair --> read airdodge and uair again, and then something else and he died (I think I finished him off with a sideB). 0-death baby (On a Falco)
On Fox I just dsmash chain til like 100% and then sideB
fbair = hip hitbox of bair? (ie the front of bair) right?
And at mid percents I do the same or I dsmash x2 --> DAL--> utilt/dtilt
In fact at just the last tournament I got dtilt --> dsmash x4 --> dash attack x3 --> dtilt --> uair --> read airdodge and uair again, and then something else and he died (I think I finished him off with a sideB). 0-death baby
(On a Falco)On Fox I just dsmash chain til like 100% and then sideB
fbair = hip hitbox of bair? (ie the front of bair) right?
And at mid percents I do the same or I dsmash x2 --> DAL--> utilt/dtilt
[FBC] Papa Mink
Smash Legend
When you say backside nair flip, I understand you mean the back hit of nair, but how do you position yourself for the fair
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Do a ff back hit nair and it'll pull them in front of you, then you do a running sh fair into them.
[FBC] Papa Mink
Smash Legend
Oh the back hit knocks them infront of you? Nice
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Part of it does, yeah. It's not unrealistically hard to hit with that part.
I should test it out (or we should have SFP test it out for us since he has time to and I don't) but I think it's like the middle half of the whip will send them forward. The furthest part and the closest part will send them in the other direction.
I should test it out (or we should have SFP test it out for us since he has time to and I don't) but I think it's like the middle half of the whip will send them forward. The furthest part and the closest part will send them in the other direction.
[FBC] Papa Mink
Smash Legend
Oh ok. I only really use the two tips of nair. Never messed with the middle.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Yeah you have to time a FF nair so that when they pop out of the dsmash, they go straight into the middle of it. Not that hard.
quiKsilverItaly
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2009
- Messages
- 268
i like how V115 uses the dsmash. I should learn the dash attack lock, and then i would have my own perfect moveset for dsmash followups.
Maybe what sfp and v115 didn't mention:
a simple doube dsmash to nair at like 70%. It is very simple, bring the enemy above you, and doesn't stale fair/bair/side b.
also the triple dsmash is so good. I just stole it from you guys, but at high percent it is ****ing broken, especially when charged.
edit: ah and i don't see killing every Zss with Side-B. Most of the times dsmash 1x to Side-B is the best way to kill, because it is safe and usually the safest way.
And dsmash offstage at middle percent or higher: down-bbbbbb
against dk and so on: footstool
at really high %: a simple and safe side-b or bair.
there is also way to kill a stunned offstage enemy with down-b, instead of stagespiking him with bair. With the bair he has the chance to tech that, but usually not down-b.
Maybe what sfp and v115 didn't mention:
a simple doube dsmash to nair at like 70%. It is very simple, bring the enemy above you, and doesn't stale fair/bair/side b.
also the triple dsmash is so good. I just stole it from you guys, but at high percent it is ****ing broken, especially when charged.
edit: ah and i don't see killing every Zss with Side-B. Most of the times dsmash 1x to Side-B is the best way to kill, because it is safe and usually the safest way.
And dsmash offstage at middle percent or higher: down-bbbbbb
against dk and so on: footstool
at really high %: a simple and safe side-b or bair.
there is also way to kill a stunned offstage enemy with down-b, instead of stagespiking him with bair. With the bair he has the chance to tech that, but usually not down-b.