Zoning With Falco (#1: Metaknight)

[Vlade]

This blog written by HugS is about zoning: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=16108

What I want to do in this thread is to take a character every few days and discuss the good, bad and neutral zones. This is not a match-up discussion, although specfic points brought up about the match-ups between falco and the other characters should be related to zoning.

This will be a collaborative project. We'll start off with Metaknight since he's always a hot topic for discussion to kick things off.


#1: Metaknight

The Good Zones:

The Bad Zones:

The Neutral Zones:

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The Good Zones:
Long distance, for you can laser him
in the middle, from here you can get a longer CG
on high percentages keep medium-high distance so your phantasms get out better
The Bad Zones:
close to MK on the ground (he is quicker in moves, capitalize on his slow ones)
close to MK in the air (quicker moves)
on the edge
off stage
The Neutral Zones:
you can make long range a neutral zone by not lasering, but thats not really adviced

BTW, reading that up i immediatly noticed that GaW has none :o, irrelevant though

 

[Teran]

Our CQC > Meta Knight's.

Our jab beats him out. Still at medium short range he has his pesky sword.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Our CQC > Meta Knight's.

Our jab beats him out. Still at medium short range he has his pesky sword.

CQC?

when hes closing in shine is the best option, as in medium-close range he usually starts tornado at lower percentages to rack damage, short hopped shine would be the best antiapproach against MK in this situation, but if you see that he wont start a tornado id just phantasm

 

[Teran]

CQC = Close Quarter Combat.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

CQC = Close Quarter Combat.

main reason you shouldnt go near is cause of the 5frame downsmash that can kill you and tornado, the only reason i see for going in close is if you just interupted a tornado from close and if hes helpless

 

[Teran]

Our jab comes out at frame 2.
Spotdodge to jab would probably beat Meta at close quarters.
Still, Falco's jab is insane just on its own.

 

[Vlade]

Spotdodge to jab would also mean that any opponent we verse would have 3 frames to punish in between.

 

[Teran]

3 frames is barely anything.

Basically that's an Ike jab.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

3 frames is barely anything.

Basically that's an Ike jab.

if its Mk's ftilt/tornado it will still probably hit in those 3 frames

still we're doing this in the wrong discussion

 

[Teran]

if its Mk's ftilt/tornado it will still probably hit in those 3 frames

still we're doing this in the wrong discussion

That's considering he has frame perfect reactions and that's rather unlikely.

Still, jab on its own would beat any of his attacks at close range.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

That's considering he has frame perfect reactions and that's rather unlikely.

Still, jab on its own would beat any of his attacks at close range.

frame perfect is not needed for multihits

 

[Teran]

frame perfect is not needed for multihits

I still find it highly doubtful that they'll use tornado.

Even then, will they really whip one out in 1/20 second? I mean really. I think you misunderstand what I meant by spotdodge to jab. You spotdodge his ever obvious dsmash say and go for a jab. If he's using tornado, you won't spotdodge it in the first place, you'll just shield.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I still find it highly doubtful that they'll use tornado.

Even then, will they really whip one out in 1/20 second? I mean really. I think you misunderstand what I meant by spotdodge to jab. You spotdodge his ever obvious dsmash say and go for a jab. If he's using tornado, you won't spotdodge it in the first place, you'll just shield.

yeah in that context its possible, i still think close combat should only be used when you can make sure you hit him, as his attacks can easily set up for strings

 

[Teran]

Jab beats everything he has.

If you ask me, right up close Meta Knight isn't really very good. It's at the mid-close range where he's a threat.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Jab beats everything he has.

If you ask me, right up close Meta Knight isn't really very good. It's at the mid-close range where he's a threat.

why is that? doesnt ftilt/shine takes care of that area?

 

[Teran]

Not shine no, I wouldn't advise it at all.

Ftilt is a good option, but right right up close jab is faster and so is usually your better option imo.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Not shine no, I wouldn't advise it at all.

Ftilt is a good option, but right right up close jab is faster and so is usually your better option imo.

What are his options in medium-close that are the biggest threat?

 

[Teran]

What are his options in medium-close that are the biggest threat?

Falco or Meta Knight?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Falco or Meta Knight?

Both, as you obviously have to compare it

 

[Teran]

Well it's simple. Meta Knight has a sword. At the mid ranges he just plain beats us with his range and disjointed hitboxes.

Many a man (and bird) hath learned that to fight with ones hands and feet are but pointless against the cold steel of the sword. Tis why we have been gifted with the laz0r.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Well it's simple. Meta Knight has a sword. At the mid ranges he just plain beats us with his range and disjointed hitboxes.

Many a man (and bird) hath learned that to fight with ones hands and feet are but pointless against the cold steel of the sword. Tis why we have been gifted with the laz0r.

doenst dash attack and ftilt beat out his sword? in either way we can phantasm so medium-close isnt really that bad of a zone

 

[Teran]

You need to play more Metas!

I know wifi isn't good, but play some Metas on wifi, hell you could even play mine and you'd get what I mean. It's hard to explain in words.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You need to play more Metas!

I know wifi isn't good, but play some Metas on wifi, hell you could even play mine and you'd get what I mean. It's hard to explain in words.

Sorry, my area is just devoid of smashers, and Wifi doesnt really improve game or anything. I'd rather learn from watching videos.

But yeah, I understand everything is different on paper.

 

[J4pu]

MK's DJ Dair spam is a godly WoP (when spaced correctly)

 

[Hawks go Caw]

The discussion so far hasn't really discussed zoning in the sense that Vlade or HugS used it . . . .

But my two cents:

Advantage:
Grounded center stage -- This is a pretty good area to be in regardless of the stage choice or opponent. You can CG to the ledge without needing to do anything fancy. You're as far away from all the blast zones as possible. You can escape to any direction if need be. Your best kill move is Up smash and that's not affected by your horizontal position. I guess the down side is that lasers aren't as effective since you won't be at far distances and can't really SHDL so you won't have as much stage control. It's also a pretty good spot for MK and other characters to be in so they'll be "competing" for that area.

Left or Right parts of the stage facing inwards -- At a distance, it utilizes the lasers the most and SHDL are most effective. You can CG > RBPG to go for a stage spike. This usually isn't the best spot to be in since it's easier to be killed, but at least it'll limit the tornado and drill rushing. Once MK gets in close, this area becomes a disadvantage and it'd best to run away since a Dsmash or UpB won't have much trouble killing.

Neutral:
Left or Right parts of the stage facing outwards -- Lasers are useless. You need to either cut your CG short or do a double RBPG to really get all the damage out at low percentages. Falco doesn't really have a move that's quick and strong enough to force MK off the stage except maybe Ftilt or throws, but even if MK's recovering and you're at the ends of the stage you don't have an advantage since you can't gimp MK. And MK will use one of his B moves forcing you to shield or dodge. All of that sounds pretty bad, but at least MK doesn't really have an advantage either. He can't kill you easily if you have to fly across the entire screen. He'll just be staling his moves.

Disadvantage:
Off stage -- self-explanatory

On the ledge -- Almost as bad as off stage, but at least you have a lot more options. Still, it forces you to act and MK can react when ideally it should be vice versa.

Directly below MK -- MK's Dair is too good . . . .

On a platform -- You don't have any room to run. Can't CG. If MK is below you, he can UpB or just Uair through the platform and you can't retaliate. If he's above you, well . . . he's above you and he has his Dair that beats out just about everything. However, if he's for some reason grounded on the platform, it forces close range combat which apparently is in our favor because jab is amazing.

That's my opinion. I guess it'd be good to also discuss how to avoid/escape the bad zones and how to control/be in/utilize the good zones.

 

[kismet2]

I agree with Hawks. As long as Falco can stay in the center area of a stage rather than being close to the edges(you can be gimped easier around there) you'll have alot of control. Falco can't control any area if he's next to the ledge especially against Metaknight because he can just space aerials and if you jump he may shuttle loop you.

 

[rathy Aro]

The discussion so far hasn't really discussed zoning in the sense that Vlade or HugS used it . . . .

But my two cents:

Advantage:
Grounded center stage -- This is a pretty good area to be in regardless of the stage choice or opponent. You can CG to the ledge without needing to do anything fancy. You're as far away from all the blast zones as possible. You can escape to any direction if need be. Your best kill move is Up smash and that's not affected by your horizontal position. I guess the down side is that lasers aren't as effective since you won't be at far distances and can't really SHDL so you won't have as much stage control. It's also a pretty good spot for MK and other characters to be in so they'll be "competing" for that area.

Left or Right parts of the stage facing inwards -- At a distance, it utilizes the lasers the most and SHDL are most effective. You can CG > RBPG to go for a stage spike. This usually isn't the best spot to be in since it's easier to be killed, but at least it'll limit the tornado and drill rushing. Once MK gets in close, this area becomes a disadvantage and it'd best to run away since a Dsmash or UpB won't have much trouble killing.

Neutral:
Left or Right parts of the stage facing outwards -- Lasers are useless. You need to either cut your CG short or do a double RBPG to really get all the damage out at low percentages. Falco doesn't really have a move that's quick and strong enough to force MK off the stage except maybe Ftilt or throws, but even if MK's recovering and you're at the ends of the stage you don't have an advantage since you can't gimp MK. And MK will use one of his B moves forcing you to shield or dodge. All of that sounds pretty bad, but at least MK doesn't really have an advantage either. He can't kill you easily if you have to fly across the entire screen. He'll just be staling his moves.

Disadvantage:
Off stage -- self-explanatory

On the ledge -- Almost as bad as off stage, but at least you have a lot more options. Still, it forces you to act and MK can react when ideally it should be vice versa.

Directly below MK -- MK's Dair is too good . . . .

On a platform -- You don't have any room to run. Can't CG. If MK is below you, he can UpB or just Uair through the platform and you can't retaliate. If he's above you, well . . . he's above you and he has his Dair that beats out just about everything. However, if he's for some reason grounded on the platform, it forces close range combat which apparently is in our favor because jab is amazing.

That's my opinion. I guess it'd be good to also discuss how to avoid/escape the bad zones and how to control/be in/utilize the good zones.

Uses these zones, because I generally agree with them, I want to try and see if I understand the actual act of zoning by running an example through my head.

Falco and MK start out opposite sides of FD so falco is immediately in a good zone and capitalizes on this with his gayzor.... >.> I mean laser. MK has to approach and also is looking for his good zone which I think would be above falco (as the quote says) and also when falco is right at the edge with MK right in front of him. Avoiding these bad zones, which would be running or maybe IPA past MK so that you are not under him or at the edge with him right in front of you, while looking for you good ones, which would probably be getting to the center most reasonably, would be examples of zoning (right?).

Also making decsions based on your zone (like when HugS said he retreated knowing he would be at a disadvantage in a certain bad zone) like retreating or becoming more agressive would be examples of zoning. Like choosing to run when MK is above you rather than go for the aerial, which really is common sense or if you're on a platform giving priority to getting off of the platform over attacking, because even if you're successful you're not in a great zone and you don't get much of a reward (in terms of grabbing at least).

That sounds about right or at least I think.

 

[Vlade]

Like Hawkz said, I'm going to go ahead and say that being below metaknight is a bad zone for falco.

Dair camping into tornado can really put your shield under pressure, and dair completely beats out falco's uair or nair. Bair might do the job though, but it would probably be best to avoid this zone whenever possible against Metaknight.

 

[Denzi]

Like Hawkz said, I'm going to go ahead and say that being below metaknight is a bad zone for falco.

Dair camping into tornado can really put your shield under pressure, and dair completely beats out falco's uair or nair. Bair might do the job though, but it would probably be best to avoid this zone whenever possible against Metaknight.

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure just two Dairs will put you at half shield, which means that the Tornado will almost for sure hit you out.

 

[Vlade]

Being above Metaknight could go either way.

Either we connect with the dair, or he uair juggles to tornado for 40% damage or so.

 

[Hyo]

Being above Metaknight could go either way.

Either we connect with the dair, or he uair juggles to tornado for 40% damage or so.

That may be true, but we all know very well that Metaknight = air dominance. His dair equates for 180 degrees below him, and his uair is so fast that he can move around to juggle us.

At any time that it connects, a tornado can be pulled off, and if things get bad, he flees.

Falco does best when he is unhindered, so he can rack up damage - how he does it lies in the two zones he does best in. Those two zones are:

Very Far
If Falco is very far, he can cover his opponent (metaknight) with a hail of lasers. He can maintain this distance as well, with something as simple as IAP. Just make sure you don't jump into the ****.

Very Close
When Falco is very close to MK, there is very little he can do; Falco is just faster because of his jab. The jab leads up to many things, and simply shielding when they are CQCing can often lead to grabs and jabs. We all know MK doesn't survive too long off vertically against Falco, and very close lets Falco really mess him up if you can predict his movements

Of course, Falco has bad zones against MK. Being underhim, there is nothing we can do to prevent his onslaught of dairs. IAP away and try to laser to screw up his momentum.

Being above him, if you can trick him into a FF'd uair or dair -- then promptly run away-- do that. This is the neutral zone. Predict his shuttle loop, predict his uair, predict his tornado. All are very easy to do if you're used to playing an MK.

tl;dr: stay very close or very far. Do not get under him. If you're above, gamble a dair or uair and run. Predict his movement when above him.

 

[Vlade]

I will update this soon. Post your last few thoughts (if you have any).

 

[Steel]

Just incase my guide may help you guys out:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229253

 

[Palpi]

I think it is easier for Metaknight to predict an airdodge when you're above him than anything else.

 

[Vlade]

Thanks very much Steel.

*Steals from Marth boards yet again*

 

[Steel]

Not a problem ^.^

 

[Runawayfire]

Usually if a MK is dair camping when I'm close in I run to at least medium range and start to laser.
No point in chilling in a bad zone, and if you've got distance you have tons of options to deal with him if he tornadoes at the end, plus your lasers will provide obvious disruption.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Falco under MK is pretty bad. Especially with Platforms.

Zoning should be discussed assuming there are, and are not, platforms on the stage.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Why not discuss platforms too? Zoning takes into account stage and character position, both of which can be heavily affected by platforms.

I'm going to go ahead and say being above MK sucks just slightly less than below MK, but still sucks a lot. I think ideally you just want to be in front of him where you can laser they guy.