Zero Suit Secondary Discussion

[Nefarious B]

So as well all know, ZSS has in general very nice matchups with only a few that suck hardcore. This is a thread to discuss how what other characters our mains can use to maximize their chances in tournies.

The matchups we're looking to cover are (in general order of importance):

Falco
Sheik
Lucario
Diddy/MK/Luigi
Pit

Of course some people may feel comfortable enough to take these with ZSS instead of seconding. In addition, they might feel some matchups are more difficult for them and want to switch anyways

Updated list of -good- secondaries:
Sheik
Wario
Pikachu
Peach
Falco
Kirby
GaW

 

[ThreeSided]

I hope there are more than those you've listed! None of my secondaries include those! x_x

My secondaries are ROB, Ganon, and Kirby... And I definitely want to know which one I should work on the most to cover my ZSS's weaknesses.

 

[Zero]

I'd say that Diddy is feasible with ZSS. Nonetheless, you should include Lucario and Luigi in your list.

 

[ThreeSided]

I'd say that Diddy is feasible with ZSS. Nonetheless, you should include Lucario and Luigi in your list.

Read that over one more time. -_o

 

[Nefarious B]

How are lucario and luigi in the same realm as Falco, sheik, and Diddy? I'm just really not seeing anything that makes them a match where you would feel more comfortable with your secondary character than you would your main.

 

[sasook]

Because individually they have options that shut down some key components about her game. I've seen this sorta thing on other boards - people ask "how can ______ have a 40:60 matchup against both Snake and Falcon? Are you trying to say fighting CF and Snake is equally hard?" The answer is no, its not. A matchup ratio describes the ratio between those 2 characters and those 2 alone, without any relation to others.

My point is, even though Falco kills us in some ways, and Luigi can't in those same ways, Luigi can still do other things that provide a huge challenge to ZSS in other aspects.

 

[noradseven]

How are lucario and luigi in the same realm as Falco, sheik, and Diddy? I'm just really not seeing anything that makes them a match where you would feel more comfortable with your secondary character than you would your main.

Diddy is a far easier fight than lucario, luigi is about the same as diddy, because if you start controlling diddys nanners right back you can do some nasty things its a fun fight, sheik, falco, and lucario are nightmares.

The group of friends I play with has a main for all these people and 2 for lucario.

I use sheik myself for sheik and falco, for lucario, I just try to use ZSS and normally die but thankfully I play against many really good lucario's so most of them who don't play against ZSS's all day I make quick work of.

 

[Nefarious B]

The way I see it if you can stick to one main and one secondary to cover as many bad matchups as possible you will do much better than learning more than two characters. It's easy to say just pick a certain character and you will win the matchup, but you won't beat a player on his main with a character you don't know well, even with a good matchup. That said, the function of this thread is to find the characters most beneficial to spend time on.

The way I would like this thread to progress is for the community to make a list of suggestions for good secondaries for ZSS, then I will update the thread as often as I feel fit and the community can discuss individual characters and how they fill her holes (innuendo ).

So with that said, give me some suggestions on who we will be discussing. I already know many use Sheik so we will talk that one over, and I would like to discuss Pikachu and Wario as well. Any others?

(edited OP)

 

[noradseven]

The way I see it if you can stick to one main and one secondary to cover as many bad matchups as possible you will do much better than learning more than two characters. It's easy to say just pick a certain character and you will win the matchup, but you won't beat a player on his main with a character you don't know well, even with a good matchup. That said, the function of this thread is to find the characters most beneficial to spend time on.

The way I would like this thread to progress is for the community to make a list of suggestions for good secondaries for ZSS, then I will update the thread as often as I feel fit and the community can discuss individual characters and how they fill her holes (innuendo ).

So with that said, give me some suggestions on who we will be discussing. I already know many use Sheik so we will talk that one over, and I would like to discuss Pikachu and Wario as well. Any others?

(edited OP)

my third is random :tooc00l:

Pikachu is hard to learn at a good level, and while the matchup says its good against falco that is only because of the cheesy loop its still more even than they give it credit for. He doesn't love any of the matches above but he doesn't mind them and some are kinda nice so better pick than ZSS in many areas.

Wario is tricky as well, but he has less really hard stuff you need to learn, I am not sure about how well he does in those matches though.

Captain falcon is a good second because you see, since every matchup is **** you know what to expect.

*except captain fabulous he wins by default because of his manlyness

 

[Hence]

Pikachu, Sheik, Zelda, and Peach are all possible secondaries for Zero Suit Samus.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'd say try Falco, he neutralizes every matchup except for sheik, in which she has an ever so slight advantage.

I use Falco/ZSS myself too

 

[Shenlong]

I'd recommend Wario. He can rack up the damage, nice punisher, covers about all your bad matchups, and like zero suit is highly underrated. My expeirence online is that his slippery nature is very good when mind gaming people. Grab release is a minor setback, when you get the hang of it it's not that big of a deal. Although I would recommend shiek and peach just for the technical prowlness and their underratedness. <-- (is that even a word)

 

[sasook]

Wario, underrated? He's high tier for a reason...

I'd put my vote towards Zelda. I know she does fairly well against Falco.

 

[ThreeSided]

I'd be willing to work on my pika. How well does pika work, and why?

 

[sasook]

Characters I want to pick up: Samus, Zelda, Pika, and lol, CF (who doesn't?).

*notices the significant learning curve they each carry*

 

[Nefarious B]

Okay that seems like a good enough list for now, feel free to add more suggestions if you want them talked about.

So we'll move on to Sheik discussion. For each secondary we will cover:

Why ZSS mains would want a secondary for the matchups in the first place (what makes it a bad matchup for us)
and
What makes this secondary a good pick instead for each of our bad matchups.

 

[Rebelli0n]

I find kirby being a very good secondary for me. Especially against falco (nothing better than being better with lazers against falco lol!) . As for Sheik, I really don't have that many problems with sheik with kirby at all. With Lucario, having his blue ball of death is very nice on top of being able to edge guard him with kirbys dair/hammerz and being able to kill him to the sides of the stage with his fsmash rather than up (which seems to be a problem with me when i fight lucario's) makes the matchup a little easier with kirby than using zss for me. Diddy is no problem w/ kirby, nannerz dosnt hurt an ariel approach . As for the other characters i usually just stick with ZSS. Though w/ me i also use Kirby against ToonLink as well cause i for some reason always have problems against him.

 

[noradseven]

Reason #1 she is one of the few other female characters <-- admit it guys this is the main reason for at least 1/2 of you.

edit: ^^^kirby is a good second I agree there, he covers most of our weakness's

 

[Zero]

I'd be willing to bet that with all people that main ZSS, 1/2 of them second Peach, Zelda, Shiek or Marth. Femme fatales.

Why else do you play fighters :D

 

[James Sparrow]

i 2nd snake and i've never ran into a matchup that i don't think those two can cover

 

[noradseven]

Just second MK, in fact main him who shouldn't.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'd be willing to bet that with all people that main ZSS, 1/2 of them second Peach, Zelda, Shiek or Marth. Femme fatales.

Why else do you play fighters :D

I second nana.

 

[Wenis of Lore]

Okay that seems like a good enough list for now, feel free to add more suggestions if you want them talked about.

So we'll move on to Sheik discussion. For each secondary we will cover:

Why ZSS mains would want a secondary for the matchups in the first place (what makes it a bad matchup for us)
and
What makes this secondary a good pick instead for each of our bad matchups.

soooooo, what makes sheik a good matchup? i don't have much a secondary(R.O.B.) and i get beaten down when i play certain characters(diddy,zelda,mario). i don't like to stray too much from my main for fear of muscle memory(doing the wrong moves)...... but how can sheik help me out since, i'll admit, i'm not keen on the specifics of certain flaws ZSS carries besides her obvious light-weight.

 

[James Sparrow]

Just second MK, in fact main him who shouldn't.

This.

I'd go as far as saying snake could fit this statement as well.

 

[Smeh]

I had been using Lucas as a second for a while (just 'cuz he's fun to play), but found that a lot of his weaknesses were similar to ZSS' so it didn't work out too well. Zelda and Sheik both work pretty well for ZSS' seconds, though it depends on your playing style.

 

[Nefarious B]

As far as sheik goes:

She is a combo oriented character, which would theoretically make transitioning to her easier than say, Snake or ROB.

She has an even Falco matchup, which is considered our only hard counter, except for sheik, with whom she obviously goes even.

After that no one has really discussed her matchup in other forums so I don't really know how she does against the others.

IMO not the best secondary, I can't see any solid reasons to play her unless you're a fanboy and are trying to go with the all girl lineup, but I know Snakeee, Norad, Nick, and maybe others use sheik/zelda/peach secondaries so maybe they can give some input.

 

[rathy Aro]

I never knew sheik did well against zss? o.o when did this happen?

Sheik doesn't do well against lucario, diddy, or luigi. The only highlight is she does well against falco (slight advantage) and she doesn't do badly against MK (I think a high level sheik could consistently beat high level MKs, but there's been no results proving this =( ).

I'm guessing there are better options for a second, unless you want to play someone fun that's not MK.

 

[Jski]

Sheik is good vs ppl who spam rng attk but falco and this is zss biggest mach up so you may find your self playing as zelda vs falco but in being sheik you have this option to become zelda. I play Sheik/zelda, ness, and some times kerbly and luciro for my off. But i only play online so what do i know lol.

 

[noradseven]

In all seriouslyness I would suggest diddy over sheik, sheik is too similar her main advantages are she is a girl, is also fast and can beat falco.

Diddy is mostly item manipulation, and space control<-- hey wait a second, and is probably in the most similar character to ZSS, however he does well against a lot of our bad match ups or at least better, I got a **** good diddy in under 2-3 hours, but considering one of my friends has a really good diddy I guess it was easier for me, also diddy is one of the few characters where I would actually watch a few vids if I wanted to know how to play them.

 

[Snakeee]

I also main Sheik, and obviously the biggest highlight is having a fair match against Falco (although that match up relies really heavily on who gets their chain going first). However, I can't say she's a very solid choice, unless you are also using Zelda along with Sheik. I'm not sure if I should save it for a Zelda discussion, since I think using both of them would be a good secondary for ZSS. Solo Zelda does pretty well vs. Diddy, and the two together will take care of other unwanted match ups, plus do well on a few stages that ZSS doesn't

 

[ph00tbag]

In all seriouslyness I would suggest diddy over sheik, sheik is too similar her main advantages are she is a girl, is also fast and can beat falco.

Diddy is mostly item manipulation, and space control<-- hey wait a second, and is probably in the most similar character to ZSS, however he does well against a lot of our bad match ups or at least better, I got a **** good diddy in under 2-3 hours, but considering one of my friends has a really good diddy I guess it was easier for me, also diddy is one of the few characters where I would actually watch a few vids if I wanted to know how to play them.

I don't know how much you play diddy, but I'd say you're wrong on him being a similar character. He wants his opponents in different places from ZSS, and he doesn't even edgeguard unless his bananas are already set up for it. Diddy's a lot more like Snake than ZSS.

That said, he's not a bad second, but be prepared to spend a lot of time getting good with him, because his game is very complex and multifaceted.

 

[sasook]

Agreed, most people think Diddy is all glide tosses and dribbling, but there's a lot more to him than that.

 

[Smeh]

Diddy is pretty tough to get good with, especially as a second. It may be in your best interest to use someone who's not quite so tough to become decent with and spend that extra time making your zero suit even better.

 

[Snakeee]

I'd be willing to bet that with all people that main ZSS, 1/2 of them second Peach, Zelda, Shiek or Marth. Femme fatales.

Why else do you play fighters :D

......shut it!

 

[sasook]

I just realized that's Sheik in your sig, Snakeee. I was wondering who it was for a while now, finally figured it out from the front symbol.

 

[Smeh]

I mained Sheik in melee, but I wish that she was better in this game. It'd make things a lot easier for me here.

 

[Bouse]

I'd say Marth

Falco- Marth has a 0 death
Sheik- Easy Marth ****
Lucario- Read above
Diddy- Glide toss into tipper, and 0-death works on Diddy
MK-Eh... who doesn't hate Meta Knight?
Luigi- Don't make me laugh.
Pit- Gay Angel, meet gay guy with a real sword who tippers you into next week.

Either that or learn 3 different characters to get rid of the remaining match-ups.

Or just main Marth.

I'd be willing to bet that with all people that main ZSS, 1/2 of them second Peach, Zelda, Shiek or Marth. Femme fatales.

Why else do you play fighters :D

I second Ike.

I play Marth because I mained him in Melee, and Peach/Zelda/Sheik have never ever been fun to me. Oh, and I also have mained Link, because I'm that much of a masochist. I tried Pikachu but he's just a casual character I play now, which however he is great for most of those match-ups. However, Marth is just plain better.

 

[noradseven]

I can see marth, but talking about alot of work for me at least. Also does marth really gank lucario I know its in marths favor. I can always try playing as marth again I just don't find him that fun.

I don't know how much you play diddy, but I'd say you're wrong on him being a similar character. He wants his opponents in different places from ZSS, and he doesn't even edgeguard unless his bananas are already set up for it. Diddy's a lot more like Snake than ZSS.

That said, he's not a bad second, but be prepared to spend a lot of time getting good with him, because his game is very complex and multifaceted.

I never found his game too difficult, but then again I am known for technique stealing, and I know a diddy player.

I still hold by my he is more like ZSS, than snake, but I see what you are saying more of a weird mix, I just found them a similar play IDK why.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The best secondary is Kirby easily.

 

[noradseven]

the Best Secondary Is Kirby Easily.

<(^.^<) (>^.^)>