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Zero Suit Samus Video Discussion

FoosJr

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The only thing I really noticed or can comment on, is that I never saw you dash cancel out of her blaster. Other than that you had some sick follow ups and grabs out of your nair.
 

Oro?!

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So I heard you have a thing for uair. Full hop instant uair in particular hahaha.

As far as critique/advice and all that go:
I love your neutral game. A combination of a lot of Brawl tricks with Melee tricks. Very cool. I think you should dash cancel paralyzer more, which you can also do if you land out of short hop laser, and gives a lot of approach options. If you jump around them while a paralyzer is flying at them, you can choose to either space another paralyzer or do a nair/uair/dair for pressure faster than if you didn't dash cancel.

I know you feel incredible with all of the movement options compared to peach/sheik, but you don't have a safe move to get down from being juggled exactly like them. Just bringing this up because of how often you double jumped before pressuring shield/space. DownB can only get you out of so much, even if it comes back after being hit.

Your combo game will probably work better against spacies than mine will in the long run. Think every time you uair, I replace it with nair basically lol.

I have a set vs Strong Bad (DK) here but other than that set I literally have 0 DK experience other than knowing he is really good.
 

ph00tbag

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Shield grabbing? What a scrub.

In all seriousness, I like your instincts on when to use Plasma Wire.
 

Cia

das kwl
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The only thing I really noticed or can comment on, is that I never saw you dash cancel out of her blaster. Other than that you had some sick follow ups and grabs out of your nair.
ya i really need to figure out a way to incorporate this

@oro wow strong bad got better. his techchase / grab set up game is lookin pretty nice. :p And I like rising Uair because it lets me pressure space while keeping a defensive position. Same with my overuse of double jump. I tend to do it less when I'm at higher percents so I don't get knocked off the level.

As for comboing spacies, I kinda starting to figure out good patterns, but for now, i just tech chase them to death. Edge guarding them with ZSS is one of the easiest things in this game haha. I'm hoping she's a good match for Falco because I still don't have an answer for him :/
 

Yeroc

Theory Coder
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Not really. The only way you're going to control the pace of that match is by keeping Falco from getting his game going, which is going to be really hard since he owns neutral unless you camp the **** out of him.
 

ph00tbag

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Falco's not shaping up to be a good match-up. I daresay it's gonna be ZSS's worst, even. You're going to have to hard read whatever option he chooses to pressure your block, and none of the options you have are exceptionally safe. If you can land an Usmash oos, though, you ought to be able to end the stock off that alone, so you have that going for you.
 

-Ran

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/buys recording setup.
/records melee once.
/hasn't played Smash in two weeks.
/cry.
 

breez

Smash Ace
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Nice Breez. I was wondering who that was in Meta's videos :p
Thanks man! Your vids are wicked! My buddy tyler (traf) and I move in together next week, and we are going to be training our faces off. I want the #1 spot in P:M for my community! I never played melee though, so I learn a ton of new shiz every time I game with the old melee guys.
 

Oro?!

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There really haven't been any video updates for a looooong time, so here are a couple of serious sets vs Ike (Metroid) and Wolf (Rat). Gonna work on getting them into the OP, but here are the links.

Metroid(Ike) vs Oro(ZSS)
Rat(Wolf) vs Oro(ZSS)
Rat(Wolf) vs Oro(ZSS)
 

ph00tbag

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A couple things you might be aware of, but that you don't utilize in the matches:
If you're reading a ledgehop aerial, I've not found dsmash to be safe if they're using ledge invincibility. I've actually found fsmash to be more of a hard counter to that, since you can really easily outrange ledgehopped aerials, and it's meaty enough to outlast the invincibility. You might be able to space the dsmash further back, but they can still just force a whiff with the invincibility. It's certainly not an ideal move to use since they can bait it out, but if you show it once or twice, it forces them to respect it, since eating an fsmash with no double jump is death.

I think you go very often for hard reads on your tech chases, when you might get more average mileage out of matrices. Cover the missed tech and the tech in place, but leave enough time to punish the tech roll on reaction. It may not be fully viable against Wolf, though. I haven't been able to test many of my theories about tech matrices.
 

Oro?!

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The only coverage options on tech's I've found that can be used to essentially "cover all options" would be Dtilting the missed tech/tech in place and then using IASA to react to tech left or right and from there the only move that can come out in time (note this is for characters with longer tech rolls) is dash attack. You cannot crouch dtilt fast enough again to cover the outside. If they have to tech at an edge, I agree I don't really take full advantage. Charging an fsmash literally covers all options since the forward hitboxes would kill or set up an edgeguard, while the back hitbox would combo fastfallers and sometimes others.

I don't Fsmash enough and I overcomplicate situations.
 

ph00tbag

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I was thinking Fsmash would be a good option, as well. Maybe SHFFL'd bair to cover missed techs and techs in place if you started it ASAP? I'd have to look into the frame data to see if it's a viable option, although it probably isn't guaranteed at 0.

Edit: Actually, I think it is, in fact, guaranteed at 0, you just have to be really tight on your excecution, and you might not be able to land a sweetspot without sick DI reads. The nice thing is you can start up a nice little vortex pretty early on against spacies with a sweetspot bair otg, and against techs and the like, you should have time to follow up with pretty much whatever.

Couldn't tell you if this is something that can be done on reaction, but it's feasible. Naturally, it gets easier at higher percents.
 

Oro?!

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Hence why most things I go for are hard reads. It feels like you have to commit to a singular option to get anything noteworthy on a consistent basis. Also I hate that when you dsmash a missed tech at low %s they don't get stunned. If you try to punish a tech in place it happens a lot.
 

Teh-Shlurpie

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Attempting revival!

so yeah im pretty new to Project M and melee in general but i played brawl a lot previously, decided i should probably just jump in
theres a lot of problems i noticed in these games and are hoping you guys notice more than i did and perhaps have some advice :o
 

SpiderMad

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looks good, just practice Wavedash out of shield. At 10:55 you might have been able to do the Down-b to WJ cancel and lived (besides the point of not doing down-b much earlier when you had a chance as you escaped hitstun pretty quick but didn't do nothing for a while [dipping down on purpose to try to get in some WJs since you like doing them a lot =S?] but then went for a down-b which you 1- didn't chose much distance with it 2- didn't JC out of it). Try also getting the max distance of down-b for when you need it,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbGkMzlwnLc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJm0Wi5O2-U
 

ph00tbag

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Re: Slurp
You could stand to throw more nairs into your combos. This provides DI mix-ups with uair and fair, since it forces the opponent to DI down and away. It also does 10% damage guaranteed. It's also a lot easier to link into follow-ups, which means fewer two-hitters without a good finisher.

Flip Jump immediately out of hitstun first thing whenever you recover. This way, you don't waste your double jump if you don't need to. Your double jump should be the last thing you use, not the first. This is because you can Plasma Wire at any point in a double jump, but you can only Plasma Wire out of Flip Jump if you JC it.

It's hard to speak to stuff in general. It's hard to tell if some of your questionable decisions are just bad habits, or if you're just taking advantage of the fact that your opponent isn't adapting.
 

Teh-Shlurpie

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Cheers, Ph00t i do have some more footage but it would probably be better to have some fresh stuff rather than stuff thats 3 weeks old now
 

ph00tbag

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Vidjo, you definitely got nervous after the second or third match in the first set. Haymaker uptilts and ill-advised grabs abounded. Thankfully, SW was also a bit jittery and didn't just usmash you for every one.

Also #panicrolls
 

Oro?!

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Yeah, I need to update this... Sorry guys. I am going to add stuff to the OP likely tomorrow. Incoming massive wall of vids on my side, and everything else that has been posted since I stopped.
 

\Apples

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Vidjo, you definitely got nervous after the second or third match in the first set. Haymaker uptilts and ill-advised grabs abounded. Thankfully, SW was also a bit jittery and didn't just usmash you for every one.

Also #panicrolls
LOLOLOLOL you see it. Yeah, this set was one of those where the whole room was quiet. They took forever to strike stages lol. Fox is scary man.

Btw are you implying u-tilt isn't a good move by lumping it with ill-advised grabs? Cause I think u-tilt is a really great move.
 

ph00tbag

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Btw are you implying u-tilt isn't a good move by lumping it with ill-advised grabs? Cause I think u-tilt is a really great move.
I think they're both good in their own ways, mostly for their follow-up potential. Despite their strength in that sense, they're both very, very punishable. The issue I found is that both were kind of thrown out when I couldn't find any reason to suspect SW would fall for them. In some cases, he even seemed to be actively baiting them. He just seemed really jittery and would run in for the punish and do absolutely nothing, so a lot of the bad decisions ultimately went unpunished.
 

Oro?!

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It's a frame 3 startup yes, but the cooldown is pretty significant to say Spacie uptilt/Marth/Sheik tilts. Also the fact that it's 2 hits hurts way more than it helps.

Still her 2nd best tilt.
 

\Apples

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I think they're both good in their own ways, mostly for their follow-up potential. Despite their strength in that sense, they're both very, very punishable. The issue I found is that both were kind of thrown out when I couldn't find any reason to suspect SW would fall for them. In some cases, he even seemed to be actively baiting them. He just seemed really jittery and would run in for the punish and do absolutely nothing, so a lot of the bad decisions ultimately went unpunished.
Right, that's what I'm saying. If you use it right, it's unbelievable. Just don't hard read with it.


It's a frame 3 startup yes, but the cooldown is pretty significant to say Spacie uptilt/Marth/Sheik tilts. Also the fact that it's 2 hits hurts way more than it helps.

Still her 2nd best tilt.
The priority on it seems ridiculous. I totally agree. Dtilt > Utilt > Ftilt
 

vidjogamer

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Oh totally. I was completely off that day. I missed so many kill opportunities too. Ultimately, it just goes to show that you should practice before you compete. Also, I never played a fox before. I was trying to figure him out as I went, unfortunately I failed. I wish I had more people to play with!!!
 

vidjogamer

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Oro, you should have won vs that Ike, btw. At least I know I'm not the only one who suicides with her all the time.

(talking about round 1)
 

Oro?!

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Bair actually has a comparable knockback to FSmash, but fsmash is charagable and hits at a slightly lower angle. The reason I always bair over fsmash, especially against opponents that actively try to mash out of stun, is that you can intentionally sour spot bair and on survival DI you can get a guaranteed fair/dive kick, which both happen to kill reliably as well. It is more of a precaution in a gray area where you are not sure your fsmash/bair will kill outright. Also because while Fsmash does have a huge range, stunning targets below the stage, or in awkward positions don't always lead to FSmash. Alternatively, I will Uair/Nair when I believe my opponent will not be killable by FSmash as sort of a 50/50 DI mixup. I am still not very accustomed to ZSS new throws and what is entirely possible outside of high % guaranteed KOs vs floaties with dthrow, so I would say most of these stun habits are bad on my part, and there are likely better followups at most %s out of uthrow/dthrow.

Dive Kick is my favorite ZSS move, and I believe it is highly underutilized. The move is stronger the closer you are to your opponent when the moves active frames start. In fact, if you start Dive Kick with your opponent inside of the starting hitbox, I believe it is stronger than sweet spot bair and fsmash.

There are a few people that have gotten decent at teching the initial dsmash hit on edgeguard if they are climbing a wall with firefox for instance, and it is also techable as soon as you leave stun.

My style is not optimal in the least, and most of what I do is experimentation from 2.5 when ZSS had an abysmal grab game and you had to be slightly unorthodox to get some kill opportunities.
 

ph00tbag

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Oro, I will say, I think you should rather use dive kick a lot more as a stun follow-up to dsmash off the ledge. I think it'd be more likely to KO outright, especially if you're not confident about the timing of the dsmash escape.

I'll also say that I'm pretty sure fsmash actually hits a little bit below the stage at certain spacings. I'd need to look at hitboxes to be sure, but there you have it.
 
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