Zero Suit Samus Video Discussion

[ph00tbag]

Dark Sonic: Dair is not safe. It can be nice to fill in holes in combos, but if its not guaranteed, I'd suggest avoiding it. It's especially punishable on block. Wizzy in particular punishes you for a lot of dair attempts that would have been better served as spaced bairs or nairs.

In TSA1, at least, you seem to like going for uair from ledge. This is a strong option, but easy to bait. Be more cautious, and mix it up with wavelands and such. You can also use Flip Jump for some really short-cycle ledge stalls.

I respect if you want to distinguish yourself by going for a bit more flair on your aggressive edgeguards, but if you're going to do that, please, please execute on them more consistently. You get punished for so many offstage whiffs.

 

[Vixen]

http://www.twitch.tv/azprojectmelee/b/544894678 vs HungryBox.

I am a choke artist. Discuss.

 

[Axrz]

Some friendlies against Ally. Critique would be appreciated. http://www.twitch.tv/xatic/b/544721813?t=9h56m45s

 

[Shokio]

Looking for critiques as well. The first match here I know I played sloppily:

For this one you can just watch the first match since I switch to Roy:

 

[Vixen]

huge video dump incoming

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E_ieSSThKY vs ForteFreak MK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og0Fwrs6sC8 vs TommyDerMeister Roy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP2Cco6bRQk vs Wafty Wario
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h_ij3QPBDw vs GG7 C. Falcon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2kUtuiDIn4 vs ForteFreak Diddy/MK

 

[Roche_CL]

Where are the GF of that tournament vixen?

 

[Vixen]

Where are the GF of that tournament vixen?

I had to work at 3 AM so I forfeited in GF to go home and get some sleep. It was midnight by the time we were packed up and I got home.

 

[Strong Badam]

Dark Sonic: Dair is not safe. It can be nice to fill in holes in combos, but if its not guaranteed, I'd suggest avoiding it. It's especially punishable on block. Wizzy in particular punishes you for a lot of dair attempts that would have been better served as spaced bairs or nairs.

Zero Suit Samus's dair is +0 on block (with a hop) last time I checked, so unless you're just being punished for being above someone I disagree.

 

[Vixen]

Zero Suit Samus's dair is +0 on block (with a hop) last time I checked, so unless you're just being punished for being above someone I disagree.

most of the cast can punish zss on reaction for dairing their shield. i've tested it extensively since my bf is a zss main. Any character with a decent nair or uair oos can just jump up and hit her.

 

[Shokio]

most of the cast can punish zss on reaction for dairing their shield. i've tested it extensively since my bf is a zss main. Any character with a decent nair or uair oos can just jump up and hit her.

Yep, it's just that since ZSS is a under-represented character and Dair is a under-utilized move, people don't expect the hop on shield, and by instinct they try to punish OoS like they would a normally shielding move.

 

[Foo]

Alright, I finally have a recording of me playing, so here goes. I apologize in advance for the AWFUL framerate. Hopefully next time that tournament is held it will be better. Sadly, only two of the matches I played were on the TV that was being recorded on (I avoided it because it was a laggy HD TV lol)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAGh6M0HvaE Losers' bracket
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv0bZqL2CUY Loser's quarters

I'd really appreciate any feedback, especially any bad habits you guys see. I know my tech skill isn't the best, and I'm working on it. I just can't quite get my hands to do everything I want yet. I also know I didn't combo nearly as well as I could have. For some reason, my nerves just made me not go for combos I knew I could land. (Also, every upsmash but two were supposed to be upairs.)

First round in the tourney I was matched against the guy who took fourth (who was knocked out by 1st and 2nd place players) and went to losers. From there I just went through Loser's crushing dreams. I tied for fifth overall, which I was relatively happy about. I won't say I am proud of how I played, but it's only slightly worse than I normally do because I played unnecessarily carefully at bad times.


(Here's the bracket if anyone wants to see. Boss came and crushed everyone, only one person took a game off him in PM and melee together)

 

[Foo]

Well, my 3.5 matches from the tourney the day after the patch are finally up. It was a super small tourney and it was the first time I played 3.5 ZSS, but I think I did a fairly good job in the last games, linked here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0cgJRjS3-8&index=18&list=UU7DE34pj8rtjFyAuHDtP7ew Grand Finals

The other games are in the playlist, but... I'm not exactly proud of them lol.

EDIT: OH NO I LINKED THE WRONG SET BAH. THIS IS ONE WHERE I PLAYED BAD. THE MOM'S SPAGHETTI IS EVERYWHERE. IT"S EVERYWHERE. Fixed

 

[Oro?!]

Should I create a new thread for 3.5? Unless someone else wants to do it.

 

[Foo]

I would, but I feel like I've already made enough threads, lol. 3 of the top 4 most recently posted in threads were made by me.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Well, my 3.5 matches from the tourney the day after the patch are finally up. It was a super small tourney and it was the first time I played 3.5 ZSS, but I think I did a fairly good job in the last games, linked here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A69W8CargY&list=UU7DE34pj8rtjFyAuHDtP7ew Grand Finals

The other games are in the playlist, but... I'm not exactly proud of them lol.

I saw that at 10:00, you followed up d-throw to dash attack, but couldn't you also go for another grab? and was the sheik di'ing in, not at all, or outwards? I could not tell.

And in the third match, were you using regular dash grabs? How much faster do you think jump-canceled grabs could have been?

These are serious questions since I have no practice partners...

 

[Foo]

Oh god, I'm so embarrased. I linked the wrong fing game. Please bleach that set from your memory. Here, watch this one

I'm not mortified of how I played in this set, unlike all the others.

As for your questions, at 10 minutes I didn't hit dthrow to dash attack in either set. At 10 minutes in the winner's finals one, I just dash attacked off a tech chase. The only follow up that would have been fast enough was grab, but that would have just lead to chucking her off stage to where she could just double jump back to ledge. Dash attack lead to another tech chase. Also, if you eve see dthrow to regrab, that person DI'd in. If you see dthrow to dash attack, they either DI'd in, or didn't DI.

Did you mean another time? At ten minutes in the other game, you can see me getting hit for being dumb enough to use upthrow and think it was safe.

I'm pretty sure I was using JC grab, but idk. I try to dash grab but it's hard to tell when I hit it and when I mess it up.

 

[Roche_CL]

Leffen's ZSS looking mad crisp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhr5k-De9FM

Edit:
On Foo's match:
Wow 78% Dair string is real against DDD? xd.
I liked your neutral, maybe you could improve your punish game, specially after Dsmash.

 

[ThreeSided]

Should I create a new thread for 3.5? Unless someone else wants to do it.

Yeah, I came here for the sole purpose of suggesting we make a new thread. She's such a different character now that all of these videos are mostly useless.

 

[Foo]

You know, you could just make it yourself lol. Nobody gave me a special permit to make all these threads. Oh well, I guess I'll do it.

@ Roche_CL Yeah, I agree my punish game could use some work. That was my first game with new ZSS, so I wasn't really sure what to do out of dsmash with it's new shorter duration and nair not comboing out of it. I now know to use shffl up air out of it.

As for the rest, any advice on improving my general punish game?

 

[Oro?!]

Actually I think utilt might be the best thing out of dsmash now because of all of the nerfs. Uair doesn't really send people a noticeable distance that can be combo'd until 30% or higher for average weight/fall speed characters. Utilt is the GOAT. @ Foo

 

[Foo]

Actually I think utilt might be the best thing out of dsmash now because of all of the nerfs. Uair doesn't really send people a noticeable distance that can be combo'd until 30% or higher for average weight/fall speed characters. Utilt is the GOAT. @ Foo

I think it just depends on fall speed and %. Uptilt, maybe even upsmash, is good against fast fallers or at low %s, but up air is better in general. Most of the time I land a down smash, they are above 30% (because most of the time my opponent is above 30% in general). I know you usually went for upair out of downsmash, and upair wasn't really nerfed at all. I still think upair is best overall, but I'll keep messing around with it. I've even tried shffl first hit fair into dtilt, and it works surprisingly well. You may even be able to link it into uptilt if you don't accidentally tap jump and have fast fingers.

Not sure if it's a good option, but I have noticed nair, upair, and weak bair all link into grab at low %s.

 

[ThreeSided]

Actually I think utilt might be the best thing out of dsmash now because of all of the nerfs. Uair doesn't really send people a noticeable distance that can be combo'd until 30% or higher for average weight/fall speed characters. Utilt is the GOAT. @ Foo

Really? Maybe the people I'm playing are just doing it wrong, but at early percents I've been able to combo Dsmash > SHFFL Uair > Grab > Tech chase.

 

[Oro?!]

Yeah I have been opting that route as well @ ThreeSided , but certain characters if you get an utilt off, you can either utilt again or start a string. Going for the aerial->grab route will probably be the consistent thing, while utilt will lead to max punishes against certain characters depending on DI and weight and such.

I'm still just really sad reverse fsmash got neutered. Was such a cool mixup that never even combo'd good DI anyways. T_T

 

[ThreeSided]

So what's a good approach now? I was trying SHFFL Uair but that always seems to be unsafe on shield and I'm getting punished for it a lot. Obviously Nair isn't very good for that any more.

 

[Legit]

Space bairs

 

[ThreeSided]

Space bairs

God I remember when that was the meta in Brawl. It was interesting but also pretty boring. ;_;

 

[Oro?!]

Uair and Nair can still be safe on shield, you just have to dash as soon as you land. You also have a frame 2 jab, frame 3 utilt, frame 5 dtilt (that avoids some grabs!), and now a frame 7 grab. You can layer attacks, react to situations, and put opponents into bad spots. Bair is definitely the safest aerial on shield frame and spacing wise, but it always has been.

"how do I approach" is a pretty hard thing to decipher. Not many characters are blessed with spacie traits. You have potential to outrange, outpressure, and outmanuever any character respectively (depending on what kind of character they are. If they are low range and mobile for example, just force them to slow down and outrange them, etc.)

 

[Shokio]

The problem with using spaced Bairs is that it's easy to telegraph it to your opponents. If a ZSS's back is turned, they're going to Bair.

So far, I've been doing B-reversed lasers at mid-range, and if one hits I'll run in. Of course that's a very situational and sometimes risky option, but it's something. I just wish Nair's range wasn't pooped on so we could still use it as a reliable approach option. It'd be cool if we had other good alternatives, but that was literally all she had in 3.0 outside of the dash-cancel which is of course gone now as well.

 

[Vixen]

has anyone been experimenting with wakeup utilt? ****s like falco status. :3

 

[Foo]

has anyone been experimenting with wakeup utilt? ****s like falco status. :3

Yeah. It's ok, but nothing to write him about. The problem is how much harder it loses to CC and shield than falco's.

 

[Vixen]

Yeah. It's ok, but nothing to write him about. The problem is how much harder it loses to CC and shield than falco's.

"nothing to write home about."

wakeup utilt is the ****, you're weird.

 

[Foo]

"nothing to write home about."

wakeup utilt is the ****, you're weird.

If they are covering getup attack, they are covering wakeup utilt. It's really good if they try to punish you for lying down, or try to punish missed tech and you standing tech for sure though. Also, why'd you post this in video discussion?

 

[Vixen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGOnCGUB5-A halp

 

[Roche_CL]

If you want some bowser vs zss action, here's my GF against Brazil's best. The set was pretty darn close D:!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxDnibtsTsc

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

If you want some bowser vs zss action, here's my GF against Brazil's best. The set was pretty darn close D:!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxDnibtsTsc

I only saw the first couple of games, but I've got a couple of suggestions if you're down to hear em.

Firstly, know that playing the Bowser matchup is a little different than other matchups. You were playing well, but were selecting options that Bowser can very easily get around and not abusing options that he has trouble with. Essentially, Bowser is huge and incredible combo food, so you should abuse that about him. I saw a lot of uairs as combo starters, whch is nice, but can certainly be armored by Bowser if he is mindful. Additionally, the use of dtilt to scoop him up can be CC'd, which evens the scales with Bowser. Instead, you should try to figure out the uses of options that circumvent or get around Bowser's strengths. These moves are essentially nair and dair. Nair should be your only combo move essentially. An exaggeration, sure, but it's incredibly useful as your bread and butter in this matchup. Since Bowser is so large, you can basically always connect a nair. And its low KBG means that you are going to be able to land nair -> fair at almost any %. Most certainly up to ~150%. Uair is better for different weight classes, but sends at an awkward angle for Bowser in particular and doesn't have as much reach as the nair, meaning that your combos end faster. Dair is where all of the fun is, though. You can dair chain Bowser ON REACTION up until ~80%. Add to this the fact that dair is essentially safe on shield cannot be punished by armor, and sets up into kill moves like fair, dair, and down-b, and you have a move that can almost single-handedly break the matchup. Your neutral game against Bowser was fine, but it showed a lot of respect to a character that really doesn't demand respect in the same way that a Fox or a Marth does. Good luck in future tournaments! I personally find the Bowser-ZSS matchup to be one of the most dirty matchups in the entire game. Hopefully you can tune up a couple things in order to make it look that way.

Also, on another note, counter-pick stages with less platforms. Bowser can't really deal well against ZSS on stages that are super open. His mobility is such trash and the combos become more automatic for ZSS when you take platforms out of the equation.

 

[ph00tbag]

You can dair chain Bowser ON REACTION up until ~80%.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't dair stop rebounding after one hit in 3.6?

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't dair stop rebounding after one hit in 3.6?

Dair is unchanged between 3.5 an 3.6

 

[Roche_CL]

Thx for the comments Myst, Nair is better now on 3.6 so I'll even abuse it more. Im always scared to Dair cause so many chars escape easily, but bowser is not the case.

 

[N810]

Hey Everyone. My name's Nathan and tag is N810. I'm becoming a ZSS main in hopes to increase my skill level as a player(fundamentals, spacing, etc) and I would like some help and advice. I was originally a Sonic main so expect that kinda playstyle early on with me. Anyway, Monday was my first tourney using my Day2 ZSS and I got 5th place of out 33 entries while winning 7/10 money matches. So I very hopefully with this character. Here are my two vids and I hope you guys enjoy. All comments are welcomed.

Vs. Lucario - https://youtu.be/lIFO6J5RQ-c
Vs. Link - https://youtu.be/o0H9i8FFpUo

 

[ted dorosheff]

not bad but needs work, here's my take on the VS lucario Vid:

at 1:42 you died because you tried to connect with an fsmash. By nearly two minutes in you did a lot of fsmashes, most were a good idea, this one wasnt. If you didnt know, ZSS's fsmash is one of if not her most unsafe move.

on 3rd stock you were chasing him all around the map, and this lost you a lot of headway. Dont chase/charge in during neutral without setting something up, lasers work well to set things up.

Work on getting your nair chains out of throw to be more consistent.

For that first match i didnt see you use your up-special once. Its a great move in many scenarios, especially offstage or if you are below them.

Second match against Lucario, your options out of throw are killing you. You got lucario when he was fresh, after his first stock, in a dthrow. You chose to fsmash, instead of nair chain or even just a dash attack chain. this would have cost him some percentages on that fresh stock, but instead you lost a stock. You throw out fsmash way too often. However, at 6:54 good fsmash. But then at 6:59... not so good.

For the Lucario fights, more lasers, more nair chains (especially out of dthrow/uthrow), better options in neutral.