Zelda's Matchups (please sticky)

[Rykoshet]

A good ike player doesn't use a smash unless they fully expect a person to fall/retaliate/dodge/roll into it. In my time playing Ryoko I can say without a doubt that his sheik gives me a significantly harder time than his zelda does, though his zelda is no slouch either. The problem with zelda is that as much as you think ike's moves are telegraphed, zelda's honestly could be sent by carrier pigeon they're so easy to see. Once you get used to holding your shield instead of attempting to spot dodge nayru's/up smash the matchup honestly starts leaning hard towards ike. We control the air better, offstage is our severe advantage (silven's aggressive offstage would probably go nuts on one if he werent convinced of zelda's superiority) and ground game is pretty much down to knowing when it's safe to let your shield drop. Din's fire is an afterthought, it shouldn't even slow you down.

As of now I'd say the zelda matchup is probably one of my easiest times as ike, ness being a close second.

 

[Darkmusician]

I think it's also because you play against Zelda all the time so you've really had time to think about these things. Good stuff.

 

[Garde]

As of now I'd say the zelda matchup is probably one of my easiest times as ike, ness being a close second.

I don't mean to derail the thread or anything, but how good are the Ness players you're playing against? I don't really see how Ike can get around someone who actually knows how to use PK Thunder (this move is far superior to Din's Fire in terms of spamming projectiles)... His mobility is even worse than Zelda's in the air, and he doesn't have any form of reflector to deal with them. If the Ness actually uses PK Thunder 1 correctly, they can easily score 4 hits with a single PK Thunder 1, juggling you while you can't do anything. Even if you air dodge, any Ness player that has spent 5 minutes learning how to use PK Thunder 1 correctly would be able to hit you out of an air dodge. On top of that, he can also PKT1 into PKT2 if he hits you with the tail repeatedly near himself (and good Ness players will do this, even with platform stages). On top of that, Ness's air game is much better than Ike's, and he has great OOS options, not to mention he can feint aerial attacks. Considering I've played against a few great Ness players in Melee, and one in Brawl, I think you severely underestimate Ness (though I'm more than willing to hear your reasoning behind what makes him easy for Ike).

The only thing I see in Ike's favor is his overall reach, weight, and KO power... And that only means that if the Ness is playing stupidly he'll get KOed.

As for Zelda, I can see this match being pretty even. It really depends on who can read who better. If you can read Zelda, she's a piece of cake because when you use a lot of her moves, she's left vulnerable. The same goes for Ike, though. Din's Fire is a great move, but it's not spammable like a lot of quicker projectiles, plus Ike's weight makes it relatively hard to KO him in comparison to a large majority of the cast.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'll be updating this as the zelda boards decide on matchups. so, right now, this thread will be fairly naked. However, I can give you a little overview of Zelda's matchups right now.

Zelda mains can't agree on much, but we can agree on this, so far at least: Zelda has absolutely no hard counters. It's possible to counter pick zelda, but no character really posesses an advantage against her heavy enough that she can't still win with enough skill, even at upper levels of play.

That having been said, Zelda mains definitely agree on this: Zelda has two matchups which could definitely be considered bad AKA definite uphill battles. These two matchups are Game and Watch and Marth. and, unfortunately, Zelda/Shiek doesn't fair any better against these two.

Zelda also has a few matchups which have a very slight advantage against her... that is, an advantage that makes the mtchup not entirely equal, but that is so small that the matchup still plays almost evenly. These characters are the earthbounders and olimar. Fortuntaely, however, Shiek actually fairs pretty well against all three of these oponents meaning that they have NO advanatage, not even a slight one if the zelda main can also main shiek.

Against top tier, Zelda is notably one of metaknight's hardest matchups. Zelda probably fits into the same category vs. metaknight that the earthbounders did vs. her. i.e. Zelda has the slightest edge on metaknight, but the matchup plays nearly even. Snake, on the other hand, probably goes the other way around: most people call snake Vs. Zelda even, but I find snake just as hard, if not harder, than olimar or either of the earthbounders ever were... but it's still not a bad matchup.

As for her great matchups, she mostly ***** anything in low or bottom tier and she is, notably, one of the worst matchups a DDD will ever face, but Zelda mains can't decide exactly who she matches up well against and who she matches up evenly against since it's such a daunting task to collect data on all of the rest of the cast... it's easy to collect data on her small handfull of less than favorable matchups.

This will be more organized as time goes on.

 

[Darkmusician]

Zelda vs Falco and Zelda vs MetaKnight. I don't think they're hard. Just tedious. Takes alot of patience and focus.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda vs Falco and Zelda vs MetaKnight. I don't think they're hard. Just tedious. Takes alot of patience and focus.

I've never played a good falco. But I can't see him being too bad.

as for MK...as I said in my post, I always find I have the advantage in that matchup... it's still not even big enough to be called even a soft couter.. i.e. it plays really close to even... maybe it's just because I find MK really predictable.

 

[Dpete]

Does the Zelda community agree that the matchup with Kirby is either neutral or slightly in Zelda's favor?

 

[popsofctown]

Kirby gives me pain... i'd say straight neutral.

 

[Aeyr]

I don't see the Earthbounders as being difficult unless you are obviously predictable with your dins......

 

[Darkmusician]

I've never played a good falco. But I can't see him being too bad.

as for MK...as I said in my post, I always find I have the advantage in that matchup... it's still not even big enough to be called even a soft couter.. i.e. it plays really close to even... maybe it's just because I find MK really predictable.

Being that everyone has their own experiences where they play and different people are good with different characters, it's hard to say what is hard/not hard in general.

 

[GodAtHand]

I think Zelda should be neutral against the Earthbounders, even without Din's I have never had trouble with them. And if you use Din's well enough it can still help.

 

[Slyfer070]

I honestly dont see how everyone says Earthbound has the better match up. While they can absorb our Dins it's not like we cant make it fly past them or just detonate early. Our smashes destroy them. The only smashes you have to worry about with those 2 is Lucas' fsmash because i play with him too and i know how fast it comes out. I go against a good ness and a good lucas and i'd say it's an even match. Any projectile they can throw at us we can reflect and they have such large cooldowns on their projectiles there's no way they can punish us for it. All you have to do is not spam Dins and you're good.

As for my hardest match up. It goes to wolf. Everything about him is absolutely ridiculous. That dsmash is just as fast as ours if not faster. His fair comes out SO fast when he short hops it. HIs reflector is a counter of sorts. So we can't reliably camp him. And that RIDICULOUS blaster. Zelda is so tall it's hard to avoid without putting yourself at risk. Try to short hop towards him he can get out the blaster animation in enough time right at the end of your dodge. Reflect it and it goes through the other blaster he just shot at you and wont even reach him. It goes too far to not go at least almost the same length as it flew out at you. A Wolf match up is so ridiculously hard it's not funny. And i haven't even said anything about his fsmash which has a larger range than Lucario's fsmash which is ridiculous. It might not kill you but it'll set you up for half of Wolf's kill moves. His upsmash will keep you grounded after you get hit by that weird hitbox of it. If there was one character in the whole roster i can't get my way around. It's THIS guy. I pray in every tournament that all the wolves get knocked out early. Because this guy is no joke.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Why does people say that the Earthbounders are bad matchups

Nayru's nullifies PK Freeze, PK Flash, reflects PK Thunder and PK Fire.

The only problem are some of their smashes

If they try to come from the air, just U-Smash them

Against PK 2 just shield and F-Smash

And if they try to recover with PK Thunder, just Din their PKs

Ganon can give some problems with his F-Tilt, but aside from that, Zelda has an easy match up.

From Mr. Game and Watch, i'd say is slightly in Zelda's Favor, If he tries to hit you with his key, use U-Smash. They'll trade blows but Zelda's will deliver it's final knockback.

Zelda's Spot Dodge evades Game and Watch's D-Smash, use a roll when he tries to F-Smash and a D-Smash when he tries to grab you.

And if he absorbs three Din's, can he absorb more???

Because if not, then you could start using Din more aggressively, sice he won't be able to take more.

Zelda's din make Snake Granades explode, you can teleport in between the mines, she can easily punish his recovery, if he uses that Snake dashing thing, just shield and F-smash him,
or roll backwards and D-Smash.


Against Metaknight after he glides, he enters a helpless state if he uses it in his third jump,
punish him with U-Smash

If you try to Fair him and don't sweetspot him, you'll end behind him, use Bair, he won't expect it (i think so)

Zelda's jab is very good against approaching opponents because of it's disjointed hitbox.


And her U-smash is excellent for anyone trying to come from above ( except Ike charging Eruption, since it gives him SA Frames )

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

From Mr. Game and Watch, i'd say is slightly in Zelda's Favor, If he tries to hit you with his key, use U-Smash. They'll trade blows but Zelda's will deliver it's final knockback.

Zelda's Spot Dodge evades Game and Watch's D-Smash, use a roll when he tries to F-Smash and a D-Smash when he tries to grab you.

And if he absorbs three Din's, can he absorb more???

Because if not, then you could start using Din more aggressively, sice he won't be able to take more.

Not a chance... G&W is onr of zelda's hardest matchups, if not her hardest... he's an idiot if he's approachin with key instead of bair or fair.

Dtilt outranges Fsmash

He kills zelda at low damages.


@ Slyfer:
Wolf can't reliably approach zelda... if you play defensive he can't get inside of you. your Usmash destroys all aerial approaches and Fsmash destroys his ground approaches.

...BTW, more offensively capable zeldas have no problems with earthbounders.



So IMO zelda's only bad matchups are Marth and Game & Watch... everyone else is either roughly even or better.

 

[Ztarfish]

Why does people say that the Earthbounders are bad matchups

Nayru's nullifies PK Freeze, PK Flash, reflects PK Thunder and PK Fire.

Who uses Pk Freeze, Flash, or Thunder for any purpose other than edgeguarding? =/ You were spot on with the PK Fire though, however Lucas's is slightly faster than Ness's so you may have a harder time unless they're being predictable as hell. Also using NL against Ness's PK Fire that's already hit you is a good idea, however if they expect it they might just jump and dair you.

The only problem are some of their smashes

Elaborate please.

If they try to come from the air, just U-Smash them

Great.. until they get out of it.

Against PK 2 just shield and F-Smash

A good Ness/Lucas (Aka not me) will find creative ways to PKT2 you without even giving you a chance. I had a Ness ditto with a Ness mainer and I swear he killed me with PKT2 every stock completely out of the blue.

And if they try to recover with PK Thunder, just Din their PKs

Easier said than done, in fact I've never seen that done. What is infuriating though is when you're aiming for the edge and you get edgehogged. However if you can pull of the Din's, more power to you.

 

[Slyfer070]

Not a chance... G&W is onr of zelda's hardest matchups, if not her hardest... he's an idiot if he's approachin with key instead of bair or fair.

Dtilt outranges Fsmash

He kills zelda at low damages.


@ Slyfer:
Wolf can't reliably approach zelda... if you play defensive he can't get inside of you. your Usmash destroys all aerial approaches and Fsmash destroys his ground approaches.

...BTW, more offensively capable zeldas have no problems with earthbounders.



So IMO zelda's only bad matchups are Marth and Game & Watch... everyone else is either roughly even or better.

You can't play like that against wolf because his blaster comes out faster than dins and he can do it more until YOU approach. Usmash destroys aerial approaches until they bait you into doing usmash and get in from the ground before our usmash is finished. Wolf's fsmash is quicker than ours and hits multiple times so you cant block and retaliate you have to block and dodge/roll otherwise when the move is finished he'll downsmash you. Trust me, about the only thing i can see that works is baiting them somehow into rolling onto you and you're not suffering from any lag from any move because zelda's usmash is faster than his downsmash(just found that out today). But you HAVE to be on top of him otherwise the claws of that dsmash will still hit you. I fight a wolf against my brother almost every other day and another friend who uses him, and i'll be ****ed if he isnt one of the most OP matches for zelda. Against a Wolf that knows to abuse blaster, my confidence is lowered.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You can't play like that against wolf because his blaster comes out faster than dins and he can do it more until YOU approach. Usmash destroys aerial approaches until they bait you into doing usmash and get in from the ground before our usmash is finished. Wolf's fsmash is quicker than ours and hits multiple times so you cant block and retaliate you have to block and dodge/roll otherwise when the move is finished he'll downsmash you. Trust me, about the only thing i can see that works is baiting them somehow into rolling onto you and you're not suffering from any lag from any move because zelda's usmash is faster than his downsmash(just found that out today). But you HAVE to be on top of him otherwise the claws of that dsmash will still hit you. I fight a wolf against my brother almost every other day and another friend who uses him, and i'll be ****ed if he isnt one of the most OP matches for zelda. Against a Wolf that knows to abuse blaster, my confidence is lowered.

I never suggested to spam din's against him... playind defensively does not mean din's camping.

about getting baited... that' user error, not Zelda error. with most characters, if you get baited into doing the wrong move, you'll get punished.

Wolf's fsmash might cover good ground, but it has awful range in relationship to his body... i.e. NOT a disjointed htbox. if you fsmash against a fsmashing wolf, he'll get caught in your sparkles.

I'm pretty sure he does NOT outspeed zelda's Dsmash with his Dsmash... Zelda's Dsmash is one of the quickest, if not THE quickest in the game... and wolf does NOT like the angle it sends him when he gets hit by it.

It's certainly not in zelda's favour, but niether is the matchup in wolf's favour

 

[Slyfer070]

I never suggested to spam din's against him... playind defensively does not mean din's camping.

about getting baited... that' user error, not Zelda error. with most characters, if you get baited into doing the wrong move, you'll get punished.

Wolf's fsmash might cover good ground, but it has awful range in relationship to his body... i.e. NOT a disjointed htbox. if you fsmash against a fsmashing wolf, he'll get caught in your sparkles.

I'm pretty sure he does NOT outspeed zelda's Dsmash with his Dsmash... Zelda's Dsmash is one of the quickest, if not THE quickest in the game... and wolf does NOT like the angle it sends him when he gets hit by it.

It's certainly not in zelda's favour, but niether is the matchup in wolf's favour

yea i tested it myself and if done on top of each other zelda's comes out faster. But that's only when both are facing each other. If he rolls behind and on top of you upsmash is faster and will take priority. And another thing i tested is the fsmashes. Up close Wolf's fsmash goes first, if you space him out to where he'll hit you at the end of his fsmash your sparkles will hit him. And the thing with Wolf's fsmash is not only the range, it's the speed of which it comes out and that I dont think Zelda's dtilt prioritizes it as his hand will go past the foot and hit zelda's body.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

even so... it's NOT a bad matchup for Zelda... she doesn't get a victory handed to her or anything, but neither does wolf. neither one of them really has a special advantage on the other.

 

[Slyfer070]

even so... it's NOT a bad matchup for Zelda... she doesn't get a victory handed to her or anything, but neither does wolf. neither one of them really has a special advantage on the other.

well maybe it's just that i keep running into the blaster and accumulating so much damage from it. I just wish there were more wolf vs zelda matches out there so i can see different ways to deal with it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah... if you keep running into enemy attacks, chances are it's not going to turn out well for you. it's gay that camping like that is so easy in brawl, but you can camp him too, his blaster has extremely limited range so you can din's him from any farther than that

 

[Slyfer070]

yeah... if you keep running into enemy attacks, chances are it's not going to turn out well for you. it's gay that camping like that is so easy in brawl, but you can camp him too, his blaster has extremely limited range so you can din's him from any farther than that

sadly that's not the case. on stages like Smashville it goes the whole length of the stage. Wolf is pretty much the only character i like being on platforms with because we can angle our Dins. Idk, i haven't found the secret to fighting him yet, but i'm sure it's in the laser spam.

 

[Slyfer070]

So getting off the incredibly annoying wolf, does anyone have zero problems with IC besides their cheap(a word i dont use often) chain grabbing. I find Zelda has alot of AoE attacks which end up screwing Nana in the process. Also at a distance or rather when they're trying to recover, i never go after the main character, i always go after the computer and chain din's on them as long as possible to keep her out the equation. The beauty, people can learn to airdodge every din's you throw at them. AI, not so much.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't remember whetehr or NOT FW is a viable way to get inside of lasers or if you just have to enter via well placed attacks. you could probably short hop a dins into a laser such that you angle it down and it hits the ground at his feet... even if he shields, you are in a good position and at least you are inside of his laser... I don't have someone to test this on right now though.

just expiriment some.

As for the icies, Zelda does quite well against them, a lot of her attacks hit both of them, and she's REALLY hard for them to get inside of so that they can start their CG.

 

[Slyfer070]

It's not, they'll learn there's a shield button REAL quick. Plus there's too much startup lag on FW. I have a little luck hopping over blaster and Dins but that turns sour when they end up under me for whatever reason and get me with a dsmash or upsmash.

Oh and against IC, it's funny because against every other character they'll spam icebergs but zelda's fsmash is fast enough and it'll push both icebergs away without any real trouble.

 

[GodAtHand]

One of my friends used to main wolf, He spammed the blaster a lot, but i would just jump and angle a dins downward and explode it at his feet. If he blocks you can try to grab him once you land, if he gets hit you can try to catch him in an up-smash. You could switch between that and a jumping toward him naryu's that way the reflected lazer would still hit.

 

[FirebyrdXX]

Can we talk Snake? This guy is a problem. This is in now way a neutral fight. More like 7:3 Snake. Hit f-tilt is faster and outreaches f-smash, which is a big problem. And he can constantly kill Zelda at 90% since she's so light and he's so strong. You can DF camp for awhile, and it's good for exploding his grenades, but that's about it. Lightning Kicks, fresh ones even, won't kill him until 140% or so. Also, mortarsliding is a really safe approach for him. It's superfast so unless you DF to interrupt it, you're getting hit. He'll go right through you even if you shield so you can't grab or even NL afterwards! And of course, he has his magic u-tilt which I think also outprioritizes and outranges f-smash. Since you're constantly coming back down from explosions, he has all the time to u-tilt where you're landing, or even nair, which is long enough and sucks you in to do ridiculous damage even after an airdodge.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^ i dont think your right about his f-tilt having better range then zelda's f-smash. Also here is something i wrote a while back which i think is a pretty good summary on how to fight snake

for snake spacing is very importent. you should be able to get some din's off while he is setting up his mines and throwing grenades (note if you time it right you can make his grenades explode on him with a well timed din a nice thing to do but don't rely on it) after he gets his items out there (mines/grenades) it is time to approach him. This is were your spacing is very importent your f-smash has a good reach and is a big weapon in this fight since he will mostly be using his tilts when you are close. also dont forget to use your d-tilt or d-smash both are very usefull in any fight (a good d-smash near the edge on snake might send him at the perfect angle for you to have a chance to gimp his up-B). snake is easiest to deal with in the air and with an up-smash like zelda it is not hard to get him in the air. since he wont be dying for a long time i try to save a move to kill with, i usually save up-tilt. up-tilt is a strong move that often people don't see coming since everyone expects a zelda to use up-smash when somone is above them. Also of course zelda has plenty of kill moves so if you want to save a diffrent one or just use f-smash near the edge or lightning kicks that could work as well. Also since you can reflect snakes up-smash which is not a well known thing you can surprise a snake using his up smash to keep you off the edge with you neurtal B.
Also if he runs at you get ready to shield b/c his dash attack or slide is coming and as i am sure we all know they have some distance to it. a good snake is hard to gimp when recovering but if you get the chance you could spike him out of his up B or you could just din him while he is using it and of course lightning kicks can hit him as well. besides saying watch out for his mines (remember were he puts them) i can't think of anything else to write about the fight right now let me just say no one destroys snake but zelda can fight snake pretty evenly i think.

 

[FirebyrdXX]

And yet I've only ever beaten Snake once as Zelda...

If Snake's f-tilt doesn't reach farther (it really might, it's very deceptive. And if it doesn't than it's negligible), it's definitely faster. Also, doesn't his super armor protect him from spikes and lightning kicks during his up B?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

super armor stops protecting him after he is at a high enough dmg % maybe around 100% a sweetspotted lighting kick or dair should nock him out of his super armor.

And for his f-tilt and u-tilt you might be right about it reaching further but i usally am able to hit the snakes i play with a f-smash b4 they can get me with a tilt. Also remember if you stay right outside the tilts range and use a smash it will hit them even if it does not seem to reach his body if he is using a tilt

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

So... we definitely need to get this thread moving so that we can have a halfway decent matchup thread going on here.

So... let's see...

I say we should start with agreeing upon which matchups are bad.

I say, Zelda only has two "bad" matchups.
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth

She has a couple of matchups which charcters have a slight advatage over her... but it's not even a 6:4 advatage:
Olimar
Lucas
maybe even snake?

can we agree on this much at least?

 

[RoyalBlood]

So... we definitely need to get this thread moving so that we can have a halfway decent matchup thread going on here.

So... let's see...

I say we should start with agreeing upon which matchups are bad.

I say, Zelda only has two "bad" matchups.
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth

She has a couple of matchups which charcters have a slight advatage over her... but it's not even a 6:4 advatage:
Olimar
Lucas
maybe even snake?

can we agree on this much at least?

I've been recently facing some good G&Ws and i agree that he is certainly a difficult match up- but i disagree about marth, Zelda can evade him pretty good and she has Din and Marth doesn't have any projectile, and sometimes Marth short range may not reach Zelda, but Zelda will reach him I was playing with this Marth and he thought he was going to tipper me with F-smash but he didn't....because he couldn't reach me!!! and then i used F-smash at the same distance and it connected

I also agree that Lucas and Olimar have a slight advantage over Zelda but Snake?

 

[Darkmusician]

It is all relative to player skill and play style. But yes Snake is a difficult match up for Zelda when played correctly.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

So DM... who's a bad macthup for you?

 

[Darkmusician]

This is based on my personal experiences. (people I play with/against)

For the moment Falco, Game and Watch, and Meta Knight. But I'm working on it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This is based on my personal experiences. (people I play with/against)

For the moment Falco, Game and Watch, and Meta Knight. But I'm working on it.

Odd... I get NO problems from MK or Falco (and shiek doesn't have problems with falco either) (And to n00bs reading... I didn't say Zelda has an advantage)

so do you not get problems from Olimar, Lucas, Snake or Marth?

why are MK and Falco bad for you? (I know why G&W is bad.)

 

[Ztarfish]

Falco is pure evil

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

why? why is he pure evil... I find his utter lack of range makes him one of the less then difficult matches... Plus, falco's core gameplay is actually pretty weak... he's overly reliant on his blaster and his chainthrow.

 

[Darkmusician]

Like I said. This is based on personal experience. Come to Hawaii anytime. I promise that you will hate Falcos too after doing so.

There's nothing really too much to look into as far as character match ups. It's just based on what I've played against and seen with my own eyes.

 

[GodAtHand]

Just got back from a tourney yesterday. I had a problem with an olimar. I didn't really know how to approach because the pikmin go farther than any of my tilts or smashes, he was too small for me to lightning more than once or twice, and I couldn't really approach from the air because nothing would hit him. Still did well though, just had some issues.