Zelda's Matchups (please sticky)

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Reading the Bowser thread, the guys are making out to be that we're at a surprising disadvantage. I haven't fought any real Bowser mains yet so what are everyone's opinions?

-something I've noticed also reading the other character threads is this belief that all Zelda has is her Din's Fire...how did that start up O_o. I honestly think her other moves are more frightening!

I have not fought any serious bowser mains, but I have fought plenty of bowsers and they aren't particularly frightenning... especially since you can easily do any of your attacks through a koopa klaw approach.

Din's fire is VERY important... just becasue it exists it forces the opponent to approach you, and Zelda has a GREAT defensive game... not as good as olimar's maybe, but still great. And I don't thnik boweser has too many approach options.

I honestly can't see how bowser would be at anything but a disadvantage here. his ftilit is not NEAR enough to save him in this matchup, he's just going to get outsped, outranged and outprioritized all day long. I'm not saying Zelda will necessarily mop the floor up with him, but she'll have the advantage,

 

[sFoster]

Basically any large character gives Zelda the advantage.
Her Fair and Bair are some of the most powerful KO moves in the entire game.. they are also some of the most difficult to land in terms of spacing , but when you have someone like bowser with a huge hitbox it's just asking for trouble.

I'm not sure if I agree with Zelda having an advantage over Ike, but I know that it's the general concensus saying she does, and that this has been discussed in a seperate thread before. I think everybody only feels that way because of dins fire and ikes recovery, but there things ike can do to be much more secure.

For example you can do a b-reversal of his aether.. this means you're actually UNDER the stage when the aether starts, and then he flips at the peak and grabs the edge behind him. All of the sudden you can't go behind him and spike during aether anymore..

And since when does Zelda rely on edge guard anyway?
She is such an effective killer, most of my knockback results in their death - not a return to the stage.

Ike has range, speed and power.. moves like ftilt will kill zelda at under 100 damage
100 is about when Zelda starts killing ike as well.. and tho she has projectiles, ike has range so I am tempted to say they're about even.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Basically any large character gives Zelda the advantage.
Her Fair and Bair are some of the most powerful KO moves in the entire game.. they are also some of the most difficult to land in terms of spacing , but when you have someone like bowser with a huge hitbox it's just asking for trouble.

I'm not sure if I agree with Zelda having an advantage over Ike, but I know that it's the general concensus saying she does, and that this has been discussed in a seperate thread before. I think everybody only feels that way because of dins fire and ikes recovery, but there things ike can do to be much more secure.

For example you can do a b-reversal of his aether.. this means you're actually UNDER the stage when the aether starts, and then he flips at the peak and grabs the edge behind him. All of the sudden you can't go behind him and spike during aether anymore..

And since when does Zelda rely on edge guard anyway?
She is such an effective killer, most of my knockback results in their death - not a return to the stage.

Ike has range, speed and power.. moves like ftilt will kill zelda at under 100 damage
100 is about when Zelda starts killing ike as well.. and tho she has projectiles, ike has range so I am tempted to say they're about even.

trust me, they aren't. Zelda beats ike.

Ike isn't huge enough to scream "lightning kick me" but he is big enough that they certainly have a decent chance of connecting. his main problem is that, if zelda spaces him, she's got the advantage. her attacks come out quicker than most of his and still pack quite a bite. Din's fire can screw up QD recoveries. if Ike ever whifs, he's WAY open for a lightning kick or a smash, which even Ike can't afford... lighting kick can STILL klll Ike at under 100 damage.

 

[Darkmusician]

The Olimar player (James) or O.J. as I call him (Olimar James) doesn't really play smash that much. He's a pro Gears of War player and only plays smash when it's convenient for him.

I'm not sure what was meant by "puts up more of a fight," but everyone has different opinions on different players so it's all good.

The match up chart is not really a big deal for me. Mainly because I don't switch or counter pick characters in tournaments. There are some match ups that frustrate me but it all depends on player skill and player mind set. I put my faith in Zelda and I'm confident I won't lose. (Well I'll do my best not to lose)

 

[Downshift]

trust me, they aren't. Zelda beats ike.

Ike isn't huge enough to scream "lightning kick me" but he is big enough that they certainly have a decent chance of connecting. his main problem is that, if zelda spaces him, she's got the advantage. her attacks come out quicker than most of his and still pack quite a bite. Din's fire can screw up QD recoveries. if Ike ever whifs, he's WAY open for a lightning kick or a smash, which even Ike can't afford... lighting kick can STILL klll Ike at under 100 damage.

I've never played an Ike mainer, but the only issue I have the the CPU9 Ike is his Fair, especially after a charge then a short hop. That seems to out prioritize any counter attack I enter into as he approaches, and it still hits if I roll backwards or spot dodge because of its strange execution timing.

 

[popsofctown]

I don't know how to make links to other threads , but i want to point out the vids in the back of the forums, under the thread: My triforce of wisdom in action. It's a ganondorf player against a Zelda player. The Zelda IMO, played really really well and made very few mistakes, and still lost. The ganondorf was very very good, probably better than the zelda.. but after those vids it's tough for me to say that Zelda is strong advantage over ganondorf, even though that's what i used to think.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The Olimar player (James) or O.J. as I call him (Olimar James) doesn't really play smash that much. He's a pro Gears of War player and only plays smash when it's convenient for him.

I'm not sure what was meant by "puts up more of a fight," but everyone has different opinions on different players so it's all good.

The match up chart is not really a big deal for me. Mainly because I don't switch or counter pick characters in tournaments. There are some match ups that frustrate me but it all depends on player skill and player mind set. I put my faith in Zelda and I'm confident I won't lose. (Well I'll do my best not to lose)

If I may make an observation, you play one of the most aggressive Zeldas I've ever seen. Since Zelda is supposed to be a beast on the defensive I'm sure this works to your advantage at times because people wouldn't expect it/know how to counter it. But maybe playing more defensively when it was called for would help you... you can just ignore me, of course, since saying your are twice as good as I am probably isn't an exaggeration.

I've never played an Ike mainer, but the only issue I have the the CPU9 Ike is his Fair, especially after a charge then a short hop. That seems to out prioritize any counter attack I enter into as he approaches, and it still hits if I roll backwards or spot dodge because of its strange execution timing.

try spacing yourself differently or spot dodging followed by Dsmash.

 

[Darkmusician]

Heh idk how to classify how I play. I think I only seem aggressive in comparison to the other Zeldas. My play style is just something I made up as I adapted to the new game (such is the beauty of a game that is brand new) so it's highly unorthodox and from a practical standpoint probably not the best way to play. But it works for me and I have fun at the same time which is what it's all about.

I appreciate your concerns about my lack of defense and like all advice given to me I will take it to heart. I am learning just like everyone else and wouldn't want to miss out on something that could be a huge flaw in my gameplay in the future.

Also to keep this on topic. I don't like fighting small characters and or characters that absorb projectiles. Oh and characters that have better air control. That's when going on the defensive is a must.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Heh idk how to classify how I play. I think I only seem aggressive in comparison to the other Zeldas. My play style is just something I made up as I adapted to the new game (such is the beauty of a game that is brand new) so it's highly unorthodox and from a practical standpoint probably not the best way to play. But it works for me and I have fun at the same time which is what it's all about.

I appreciate your concerns about my lack of defense and like all advice given to me I will take it to heart. I am learning just like everyone else and wouldn't want to miss out on something that could be a huge flaw in my gameplay in the future.

Also to keep this on topic. I don't like fighting small characters and or characters that absorb projectiles. Oh and characters that have better air control. That's when going on the defensive is a must.

unfortunately, GW, Lucas and Ness are all of these when compared to zelda...

Defensive zeldas normally match up fair against metaknight despite the fact that he's tiny and has better air control.

 

[Downshift]

I don't know how to make links to other threads , but i want to point out the vids in the back of the forums, under the thread: My triforce of wisdom in action. It's a ganondorf player against a Zelda player. The Zelda IMO, played really really well and made very few mistakes, and still lost. The ganondorf was very very good, probably better than the zelda.. but after those vids it's tough for me to say that Zelda is strong advantage over ganondorf, even though that's what i used to think.

Alright, well here's the link to the post with the vids:

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4358128&postcount=1

That is one helluva Ganon mainer.
Final seemed to be better with Zamus though he didnt utilize down-B as much as I would have.
As Zelda he was better than me, there's no way I could take down that Ganon mainer.
The only flaws I saw were bad spacing and using dash attacks too often. I also would have upped the defensive game a little more. That and the missed FW recovery that cost a KO at 101%. Seemed like Ganondorf's main openings for attacking was after Zelda landed from a jump or after shielding a dash-A.
However this player is good and his self critiques cover more than what I said here.
I still wouldnt say Ganondorf has the advantage over Zelda though.

 

[Darkmusician]

unfortunately, GW, Lucas and Ness are all of these when compared to zelda...

Defensive zeldas normally match up fair against metaknight despite the fact that he's tiny and has better air control.

Yes and yes. :]

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

so Mr. Darkmusician, the best zelda we have access to on the forums: what do you think of zelda's matchups with the heavies?
Ike
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Dedede
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Wario
Snake

personally, I've never had the slightest problem with a DDD and snake seems about even... everyone else, zelda has a slight advantage on... how do you find them?

 

[leogeo2]

I don't know if many people have the same problem, but I have a horrific time fighting against Olimar. I usually just end up switching to Kirby in the case that I have to fight an Olimar player.

And Hedge just to comment on your question. I seem to have a fairly simple time against heavies. I haven't had too much experience fighting Bowser and Ganondorf players, however.

 

[Tsuteto]

I'm not trying to be an *** or anything, but DM is not the best player. Maybe the most well known, but just being well known does not mean you're the best.

On topic: Ike is a neutral to me. He's got great power, minus like, two attacks, and he really isn't that slow. For a character like Zelda, she'll fly at 50, and as long as the Ike keeps clam and doesn't play overly aggressive, will be able to gimp her. Snake... I would say Snake as a slight advantage due to his range and power, and he's fairly hard to actually hit in general.

 

[Darkmusician]

I'm not trying to be an *** or anything, but DM is not the best player. Maybe the most well known, but just being well known does not mean you're the best.

I've heard the old "well known doesn't prove anything" too many times.

I don't know what you hope to accomplish with this, but this is not the place to start such a subject. If you really have such a big problem with people calling me the best (one of the best) w/e then send me a PM or go make a thread or something.

And as far as match ups go with heavy characters (chars in general) ....

It's all really experience based and personal play style for me. If you don't play against a certain character often like say...Adult Link. And you come across a very skilled Link in a tournament, it may seem harder then compared to someone that plays that same Link all the time. And the more you play with people of equal or greater skill the more you learn about character match ups etc. I'm currently learning how to play Wolf, MetaKnight, etc so that I can understand the characters better.

I think what I'll do is make a separate thread and post my thoughts on each match up as best as I am able. And it would be cool if people shared their thoughts, tips and knowledge with me because there are still countless holes as far as match ups go.

 

[Nakayorz]

As the resident zelda player with primarily "vs Ike" footage up I'll comment on that particular matchup. If the Ike decides to camp you, you're in for a world of hurt. Practically all of his attacks outrange yours (other than din's fire, and let's face it any opponent worth anything will avoid din's until they can punish you during recovery) and the speed of his jab and back aerial are top notch.

There's going to be a lot of situations where up smash will be your only option (and only if you space it properly) , thankfully Ike is heavy and it makes it harder for him to escape it. Your best bet in this matchup is to be ready to capitalize on the recovery of his moves and punish with your hard hitting moves to try to kill him as early as he can kill you.

off topic: Mr. Dark Musician is the best zelda because he puts on a good show and isn't boring to watch

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've heard the old "well known doesn't prove anything" too many times.

I don't know what you hope to accomplish with this, but this is not the place to start such a subject. If you really have such a big problem with people calling me the best (one of the best) w/e then send me a PM or go make a thread or something.

And as far as match ups go with heavy characters (chars in general) ....

It's all really experience based and personal play style for me. If you don't play against a certain character often like say...Adult Link. And you come across a very skilled Link in a tournament, it may seem harder then compared to someone that plays that same Link all the time. And the more you play with people of equal or greater skill the more you learn about character match ups etc. I'm currently learning how to play Wolf, MetaKnight, etc so that I can understand the characters better.

I think what I'll do is make a separate thread and post my thoughts on each match up as best as I am able. And it would be cool if people shared their thoughts, tips and knowledge with me because there are still countless holes as far as match ups go.

if that's the case, then I'll still compile here... if that's alright... I'll put links to each of your threads, but it's a LOT easier to look at it all at once..

I play plenty of DDDs, ikes, Gdorfs, bowsers, snakes, warios, and CFs.

-Captain falcon is literally NO problem.
-DDD has some tricks, but it's stacked up against him from the start.
-Gdorf is easy as pie.
-Bowser's just as easy.
-Snake is tough, but zelda isn't at much of a disadvantage, it's pretty even.
-Ikes vary quite a bit. the right ike (a camper) gives you hell. any non camping ike is cake.
-Wario is easy for zelda UNLESS you are letting him keep you airborne.

 

[Aeyr]

This thread seems to be going many places at once. Perhaps we should pick one character to focus on and then discuss that matchup before jumping to another, similar to how we did olimar until there was some sort of agreement. Like, for now, for example, Nakayorz has enough footage on Ike that we can discuss some things about him. I did try to get some bowser info but it was quickly shot down, XD. Speaking of, I've found no reliable video footage on that matchup as is.

And to DM: I feel as if this has slowly evolved into an attack against you and your playstyle. Personally I disagree with Nakayorz comment on how your videos are entertaining (they are though ;p) which make you the best, but see it as that since you have videos against various other characters, you have better experience against decent players and thus, are one of the better Zelda players out there.

 

[Darkmusician]

I have no problem with whatever people think. If people tell me "hey your Zelda is the best." That's great. But if someone says, "you're overrated I think my Zelda or so and sos Zelda is better." That's perfectly fine too.

Everyone has their opinions and theories and that's cool. I'm just trying to give my input when I can, and to help out people that ask for it. For those that love me and think I'm entertaining, thank you. ^^ And for those that think I'm over rated and that I suck, then I'll practice hard and do my best to change your minds.

Lets just not fill up this thread with discussion on me. This thread isn't about me, although I'm glad that I was used as an example. <3 But it's gotten out of hand. So thank you to those that think I'm number one and to those that think otherwise, I'll work on it.

-DarkM

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Okay then... current discssion:

Ike Vs. Zelda

I haven't played against an Ike of the same skill as me, I get beaten by those better and beat those worse

when I lose, it's due to the fact that zelda is light and Ike is strong

when I win, it's because Zelda has fater attacks and a projectile.

 

[sFoster]

Yeah I would say maybe 2-3 characters a week.. this list doesn't need to be built over night, and the quicker you try to get it out there the less accurate it will be anyway.

 

[Rykoshet]

Not a zelda player but considering how many I've fought, once you start learning to hold your shield instead of attempting to dodge hile on the ground the fight is pretty much a wash and boils down to

A) can ike stick out a jab/spaced aerial fast enough
B) Can zelda either get in ike's face in the air/behind him with a roll/get ike to charge into a killshot.

Whoever has a greater command of the terrain between the 2 is going to win, every time. In the air you better hope to god they inch in a little too closely and get in kick range because when it comes to aerials ike has zelda downright lapped. He runs faster than her, grabs quicker, has greater range, greater KO advantage, and honestly if it werent for nayru's, up smash, and down smash I wouldn't even fear her anymore.

 

[FinalKai]

Alright, well here's the link to the post with the vids:

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4358128&postcount=1

That is one helluva Ganon mainer.
Final seemed to be better with Zamus though he didnt utilize down-B as much as I would have.
As Zelda he was better than me, there's no way I could take down that Ganon mainer.
The only flaws I saw were bad spacing and using dash attacks too often. I also would have upped the defensive game a little more. That and the missed FW recovery that cost a KO at 101%. Seemed like Ganondorf's main openings for attacking was after Zelda landed from a jump or after shielding a dash-A.
However this player is good and his self critiques cover more than what I said here.
I still wouldnt say Ganondorf has the advantage over Zelda though.

Hahaha...so being the one who fought against this Ganon I'd have to disagree with both of you and say that, after watching the vidz myself...I made a slew of terrible mistakes. Like dash-attacking for no reason...using way too many smashes (should've used Nayru's and her Tilts a lot more)...and just being intimidated overall.

I played this guy before at another tourney and he beat my Zelda there too...so I was kinda intimidated at the beginning of these matches even with my Zamus, though my Zamus can deal with a lot more than my Zelda can (I often think she's my better character)

Regardless...Ganon is an odd matchup for Zelda in my opinion...I mean you think that it wouldn't be too difficult but a good Ganon player can punish you terribly...I found Din's to not be a very good choice most of the time...or maybe i'm just intimidated by that train of a man running towards me...if he approaches you right your screwed...also...his tilts are surprisingly quick and hit hard...and his specials should be avoided always...

I still have yet to face this guy again...considering I only play with him at school and I'm done for the year, until next semester. So i'll just have to work on my Ganon matchup

As for DM being "the best Zelda" - well...I dunno...DM is really good, I can't deny that...but on a global scale...i can't help to think that there are players out there that are better than anybody that we may know...maybe it's that DM is just really popular and well known and is a constant presence...but regardless of that he's still really good. And though i do have to give DM points for style in his matches sometimes I think Naks was just making fun of all the anti-DM people...hahaha...which i think is kinda silly to begin wtih...i mean it's ok for you to not think he's the best...but at least acknowledge his skill =P

Anyways...all that aside...what about Snake!? He's the hardest character for me to fight...with Zelda at least...I can clean him up with Zamus...but my Zelda is always playing catchup in terms of KOs...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've never had a problem with ganon... and din's fire only gets punished if you throw it out with no plan. Ganon's tils have noting on zelda's smashes, and his smashes com out way too slow toy do anything. He has a superior airgame... but Zelda's Usmash says hello to any of GDorf's aerials... including his mighty stomp. most of the time, he's easy to nail with Din's while recovering since, if you time it right, he'll have to get hit by it or airdodge and miss his recovery. I'f found Gdorf relatively easy to shorthop Lightning kick... a hell of a lot easier than ike because Gdorf can't keep you away with his range... all yo really have to do is make Gdorf approach since he really can't get through your Fsmash with anything (maybe Down+B?) and if he insists on camping, you can lure him close with din's and then either dash attack or dash-usmash. once he's in the air, he's yours... maybe not to kill... but certainly to maim.

 

[Aeyr]

I don't have any vid's of me against my friends Ganondorf, but it got to the point where he just stopped using him against my Zelda XD. A lot of Zelda's moves will pretty much go through many of his attempts to attack you, not to mention that off the stage he is pretty easy to deal with (careful using d-air in case he decides to ganon-cide you...).

-No more ike comments?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

it's not to tough to discuss 2 or 3 characters simultaneously, and it goes a lot faster

 

[sFoster]

Ok I am officially ready to declare ike at an advantage against zelda.

I guess a lot of people haven't played a really good ike.
Sheik is the better choice against Ike, because zelda is in a really tight spot.

Ryoko and Spazn could both chime in here if they check out the thread.
They have both fought the same Ike player that has convinced me Zelda's at a disadvantage.

 

[Darkmusician]

Did you mean to say Zelda is at a disadvantage?

I really wouldn't call it a disadvantage for Zelda but it's not as easy as people think.

 

[Aeyr]

So today I played a bowser and no, I don't see Zelda at a disadvantage against him as their thread has said. He is a lot more trouble than anyone thinks however, he can really become quite a hassle if you let him! However, his big size made those kicks really easy to pull off. I did have to change how I "approached" him since a lot of Bowser's moves can become devastating and the guy was pretty smart about it too.

And yeah, I know it's been said we're at an advantage but I really wanted to see for myself haha.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Did you mean to say Zelda is at a disadvantage?

I really wouldn't call it a disadvantage for Zelda but it's not as easy as people think.

Zelda's advantaged in the matchup. it's not a huge advantage, but it's an advantage.

I'll agree that shiek does better (ike hates the Ftilt and needles) but that doesn't make zelda bad. it's one matchup where it's very viable to switch between Zelda and Shiek depending on your oponent's playstyle.

 

[Tsuteto]

Ok I am officially ready to declare ike at an advantage against zelda.

I guess a lot of people haven't played a really good ike.
Sheik is the better choice against Ike, because zelda is in a really tight spot.

Ryoko and Spazn could both chime in here if they check out the thread.
They have both fought the same Ike player that has convinced me Zelda's at a disadvantage.

I want to fight him to see.

 

[Luthien]

I want to fight him to see.

Me too. Although, considering you beat me pretty badly, if you fight him I guess there's no point in me trying.

sFoster, is this Ryko's Ike you're talking about, or someone else? Because Ryko's Ike has convinced me that Zelda and Ike are close to even, with maybe a slight advantage to Zelda. Unless Ryko's pulled something new out of his sleeve, that is.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

honestly, in melee, the game went on long enough that match-up lists were viable and accurate... but brawl is too fresh.

We still haven't figured out the most effective way to use our characters yet, so in any matchup a great deal has to do with individual playstyle

 

[Darkmusician]

honestly, in melee, the game went on long enough that match-up lists were viable and accurate... but brawl is too fresh.

This is why I keep saying that it's probably too early for official match up charts.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This is why I keep saying that it's probably too early for official match up charts.

Yeah I agree. However, some matchups are pretty set in stone unless huge developments change them.

 

[sFoster]

Me too. Although, considering you beat me pretty badly, if you fight him I guess there's no point in me trying.

sFoster, is this Ryko's Ike you're talking about, or someone else? Because Ryko's Ike has convinced me that Zelda and Ike are close to even, with maybe a slight advantage to Zelda. Unless Ryko's pulled something new out of his sleeve, that is.

This is a guy named Renegade / Boreas.
Yeah I would be interested to see DM or Tsu fight him, but I would be very surprised if one of them manages to win using Zelda. Don't get me wrong though, it would be a happy surprise and inspiring as well but I do have some skepticism.

I have continually gotten better with Zelda, and I am competitve against Ryoko at this point.. maybe not equal ground but I do win some and lose some.

Renagade has 2 stocked Ryoko's Zelda, and that's typically how my matches against him go as well. I have played him a lot more often, and sometimes I'll get him to 1 stock and sometimes I will lose at 3 lol. I still haven't beat him once yet w/ Zelda.

That being said .. Ryoko has switched to Sheik and beat him before.. How is it possible for Zelda to lose by that much, but for sheik to win .. unless of course Zelda is at a disadvantage? (Is Ryoko's Sheik is significantly >> Ryoko's Zelda?)

We'll need to get some other Zelda's to play him and see their input of course, I think his finals might be over after today so I'll try to arrange a match. I have DM on AIM, and I can try to contat Tsu through here if I see he's online.

This isn't to say that vs Ike is impossible, but I cannot justify such a consistent, large margin against Zelda and say their on equal ground. The only explaination I can come up with is that Zelda must be at some level of disadvantage.

He plays a very well spaced Ike, and almost all of his moves hit with the tip of his sword.
Even with a Dash -> Power Shield I can't get close enough to reliably punish him.

I know he's beat Azen online (for whatever online counts) and he doesn't seem to have much of a problem with metaknights and marths trying to punish him either..

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

personally. I almost always switch to shiek Vs. Ike.

Why?
well. I think that zelda is at an advantage against Ike, but I feel shiek has a LARGE advantage against ike.

 

[Darkmusician]

personally. I almost always switch to shiek Vs. Ike.

Why?
well. I think that zelda is at an advantage against Ike, but I feel shiek has a LARGE advantage against ike.

Could you please be more specific? What have you learned from your own exps playing against Ike. Just saying she has an advantage large or not does not really say much.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

ahh a faq on who zelda has an advantage and disadvantage on i see. sup fostr. we should play some more, and improve your shiek heh.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Could you please be more specific? What have you learned from your own exps playing against Ike. Just saying she has an advantage large or not does not really say much.

it's clear to see what advantages ike has: He's got big range and power and zelda is a big, lightweight target.


I don't feel that zelda has any specific counters to ike besides Din's Fire camping. She just normally seems to have the advantage of being the better character.

his smashes are going to be really difficult for him to land most of the time meaing he'll probably be getting most of his kills from his Utilt or Ftilt or maybe even the odd bair. I just find he sufferes a lot of move decay on the few effective moves that he has against Zelda,

and maybe I'm not playing good enough Ikes but I've always found him pretty easy to manipulate once he's off the edge.

well... that and, him being a big target himself, He seems to got hit by lots of zelda's attacks that are harder to land and can't really Seem to DI out of her smashes. He's certainly not cake, but I always feel a slight advantage when facing ike just due to his general inferiority.

Shiek on the other hand. Shiek abuses Ike's laggy moves and ease of being edgeguarded. A good shiek is just way too quick for Ike to deal with.