Zelda's Matchups (please sticky)

[Ztarfish]

Falco doesn't lack in range. He doesn't succeed in range but he by no means lacks in it.
In any case I have no idea what makes Falco so hard, I just know that I have loads of trouble against him.

 

[FirebyrdXX]

Zelda has a slight advantage over Falco. She can't be chaingrabbed for one. In fact, you can bair him out of it, which is awesome. It's easier to just NL though. You can actually reflect the lasers and they will reach falco. Plus, His side B has bad priority, so I always just smash him out of it. You do have to watch out for his spike and up smash though. If falco only uses his up smash, which is fast, to kill Zelda than she can die fairly early from it, and his uair is pretty good too. It's definitely at least neutral to Zelda.

I haven't played an Olimar, but I don't doubt he's trouble, what with that safe throw of his.

 

[Darkmusician]

"She can't be chaingrabbed." -False
Down throw to down air to grab works on Zelda. Keep in mind that this is only at low percents but almost all of Falcos chain grabs matter the most at low percent anyways.

"It's easier to just NL though."-True
Kicking after a throw isn't reliable and NL will work. But it's very situational and you're better off just resetting yourself with spacing. If the NL misses or he shields it you will eat a dash to up smash or another grab.

"You can actually reflect the lasers" -True
Falco will win in a camping/reflecting war if the Falco. It won't take the Falco long to figure out how to counter reflected lasers. I would instead short hop air dodge and space myself in my approach.

"His Side B has bad priority." -False
His Side B has good priority, speed and reach.

"Spike and up smash."-True
Double laser to up smash is very real. And it doesn't only work on Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I haven't played many good space animals, aside from wolf (who's not a bad matchup for zelda) in all honesty. I think it's because, after melee, people are ready to see faces other than fox and falco.

But, from the limited personal experience I've had, as well as conceptually, I can't see why the matchup would be so bad... maybe you could get some vids up that show this? (then again, your Zelda, though very good, i very non-standard... making it hard to transfer experience)

 

[Darkmusician]

Yeah vids won't really help. The best way to really understand all the match ups is to travel and experience many different players and how they play each character.

And I can relate to you not playing enough of a certain character. Hawaii is lacking in a few characters as well.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I've been recently facing some good G&Ws and i agree that he is certainly a difficult match up- but i disagree about marth, Zelda can evade him pretty good and she has Din and Marth doesn't have any projectile, and sometimes Marth short range may not reach Zelda, but Zelda will reach him I was playing with this Marth and he thought he was going to tipper me with F-smash but he didn't....because he couldn't reach me!!! and then i used F-smash at the same distance and it connected

No way, marth outprioritizes, outranges, and outspeeds Zelda.

He's forced to approach because Zelda has a projectile, but his sword gives him longer disjointed hitboxes, and his attacks tend to have less start-up lag.

As for the scenario, Marth should've used sheild breaker, you were right in range for a perfect tip. Was the f-smash a follow-up to his f-smash?

Everyone underestimates Marth... *sigh*

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Marth is just about as bad for her as game and watch is.

Yeah vids won't really help. The best way to really understand all the match ups is to travel and experience many different players and how they play each character.

And I can relate to you not playing enough of a certain character. Hawaii is lacking in a few characters as well.

Between college and a full tiem internship, traveling is NOT an option... sorry. in fact, I migt be lucky if I go to one serious tourney a year... other than that, it's all local junk.

 

[Darkmusician]

I wasn't suggesting that you travel more. But going to other places and challenging people better than you is the best way to understand more about character match ups etc.

I go to college, have a full time job, pay my own expenses other than house bills and I still make it to about 1-2 mainland tournaments a year. It just takes some planning and commitment.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I wasn't suggesting that you travel more. But going to other places and challenging people better than you is the best way to understand more about character match ups etc.

I go to college, have a full time job, pay my own expenses other than house bills and I still make it to about 1-2 mainland tournaments a year. It just takes some planning and commitment.

seems like a decent enough possibility... but my college major is rather intensive, making it hard to play seriously enough for pro tourneys... and neither my house nor my college are that close to areas with pro tournies.

it's not that I couldn't do it... it would just be a LOT of trouble.

 

[Darkmusician]

Of course. We have to do what we have to do.

 

[RoyalBlood]

No way, marth outprioritizes, outranges, and outspeeds Zelda.

He's forced to approach because Zelda has a projectile, but his sword gives him longer disjointed hitboxes, and his attacks tend to have less start-up lag.

Outprioritizes? I think both Marth and Zelda have very good priority, I'd say it depends on the attacks used

Outranges ..hmm....that maybe be true(but just by a little, since i can't say marth has the best range out there) , but it also depends on attacks.

Outspeeds well that may be true, but Marth speed=Zelda's Power

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Marth also weighs more, has a GREAT approaching game, edgeguards well AND has a MUCH better aerial game.

 

[GodAtHand]

Why isn't this stickied yet?

 

[Darkmusician]

Cause this topic hasn't been deemed important enough to be stickied. It's mainly just discussion for now.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Outprioritizes? I think both Marth and Zelda have very good priority, I'd say it depends on the attacks used

In general, Marth has better priority then Zelda, the vast majority of his attacks will defeat hers.

Outranges ..hmm....that maybe be true(but just by a little, since i can't say marth has the best range out there) , but it also depends on attacks.

Again, in general. And considering that Marth is essentially built for spacing, it's more then enough. Especially since the edge of his range is where Marth does the most damage.

Outspeeds well that may be true, but Marth speed=Zelda's Power

Except that Marth also has considerable power. All it takes is one tipped f-smash to knock Zelda out at insanely low percents.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Yeah I checked again the Marth match-up and i was wrong, Marth has better range and approach, and he also outprioritazes Zelda, sorry =(.

But about weight, they're about the same weight and Zelda's U-air kills Marth at about 70% but Marth's tipped Shield Breaker kills about 50-60% =/

So IMO the match depends on the players skill =)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yeah I checked again the Marth match-up and i was wrong, Marth has better range and approach, and he also outprioritazes Zelda, sorry =(.

But about weight, they're about the same weight and Zelda's U-air kills Marth at about 70% but Marth's tipped Shield Breaker kills about 50-60% =/

So IMO the match depends on the players skill =)

statistcis like that don't at all capture the way a match goes. it's not just kill power, it's saftey and speed of moves as well, in adition to range... and marth just has more. He's not as good as Zelda at defending... But that's it. His aeiral game, his aboruching game and his edgeguarding game are all FAR superior to zelda's.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

well i did some testing and it does seem like zelda's f-smash has more range then snakes up-tilt and f-tilt. the up-tilt was easy to test but i had some trouble testing the f-tilt without snake moving forward a little but since i hear snakes up-tilt has more range then his f-tilt and when i did my best to test his f-tilt zelda did outrange him. but the f-smash only has a little bit more range then snakes tilts which is the bad news the good news is the part of zelda's f-smash that hits is the strong part at the end of it so while you are out of sakes range you could get a pretty good kill move off.

Also even through marths shield breaker has better range then zelda's f-smash her f-smash does out range marth's f-smash

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

But.. unfortunately, what's she got against his fair?

 

[RoyalBlood]

But.. unfortunately, what's she got against his fair?

Her shield lol

Maybe her own Fair?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Her shield lol

Maybe her own Fair?

I don't want to seem codecending here but.... no... non no NO.

shie;d won't work because marth is too far away for her to sheild grab or punish in anyway for fair spaming... plus, if she's in the air, it just DESTROYS her.... she CANNOT get in his range to lightning kick him... she just CANNOT do it... fair has SO much more range and is faster (I think)

 

[RoyalBlood]

I don't want to seem codecending here but.... no... non no NO.

shie;d won't work because marth is too far away for her to sheild grab or punish in anyway for fair spaming... plus, if she's in the air, it just DESTROYS her.... she CANNOT get in his range to lightning kick him... she just CANNOT do it... fair has SO much more range and is faster (I think)

How about Din's Fire, if he's spamming his fairs he won't be able to air dodge in time, you could also try a dash attack or a dash canceled into an up-smash

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

How about Din's Fire, if he's spamming his fairs he won't be able to air dodge in time, you could also try a dash attack or a dash canceled into an up-smash

unfortunately, believe it or not, fair protects him from Din's becuase fair has a big hitbox ang it cancels Din's... also, dno way you can safely pull out din's when he's close enough to hit with it.... and Zelda really lacks safe approaches Vs. Marth

 

[adumbrodeus]

How about Din's Fire, if he's spamming his fairs he won't be able to air dodge in time, you could also try a dash attack or a dash canceled into an up-smash

At that range the post-lag will allow him to more then obliterate you, and by the time you've made it past the fair's hitbox, you've been hit.

Dash attack is outprioritized, up-smash is outranged (in other words, you'l be hit before you get close enough).

To get Marth, he has to make a mistake at close range.


If you mea after shielding, fair just has way too little post-lag for these to be usable. If you try any of the above, if he space properly you'll eat another fair or an f-tilt, either of which will accomplish all of the above.

 

[Mega-Japan]

Well Marth isn't an easy match up for Zelda and she does have trouble with his FAir, I mean, look at 0:32 of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4G3NKegF18&fmt=18

I'm getting ***** across the stage by a combo of just FAirs that I was unable to shield, dodge or even DI out of (videos is kind of old btw, lol).

I feel like just rushing after him when he is hitboxing with his FAir and do a Dash Attack or grab him if possible, it DOES have a blind spot.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

this thought might be wrong since i have only fought one marth in a tournament (who i two stocked and then he started *****ing and saying i was camping which i was not) but when he jumps for a fair you might be able to run in and up-smash him. if this is wrong then i guess shielding is the way to go

 

[adumbrodeus]

this thought might be wrong since i have only fought one marth in a tournament (who i two stocked and then he started *****ing and saying i was camping which i was not) but when he jumps for a fair you might be able to run in and up-smash him. if this is wrong then i guess shielding is the way to go

Only if the Marth has the spacing skills of a drunken moose.


Otherwise there's no way you're getting in a hyphen smash against a SH fair approach.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i was just throwing the idea out there like i said i have only fought one marth, and it seemed like to easy of a solution so i thought it was probably wrong

 

[FirebyrdXX]

"She can't be chaingrabbed." -False
Down throw to down air to grab works on Zelda. Keep in mind that this is only at low percents but almost all of Falcos chain grabs matter the most at low percent anyways.

"His Side B has bad priority." -False
His Side B has good priority, speed and reach.
.

Really? Well that's a chain grab I'm not familiar with. If he just tries the standard down through over and over again though, it won't work.

And what moves are you using to counter the illusion? Because I know it's fast, but I have his Falco out of it numerous times, particularly with up smash if he does it above me. Try NL? The small invincibility in the beginning and large horizontal hitbox should protect you.

You have to play more defensive than usual against Marth. I have no specific strategies as I don't fight many, but I do know that being offensive is going to get you hurt.

 

[Darkmusician]

Yes I know the normal chain grab will not work. The Falco that I play with is far above normal.

Countering the illusion is not easy at all. And I'm sure that upsmash would work if the Falco was careless enough to actually go that high and challenge the up smash. There's no need for Falco to have to aim that high off of a ledge hop. A good Falco will go for the ledge first and then bide his time while he decides how to get back up.

NL is not a good choice against the illusion because at best it will clank and falco will go straight through you. It would be better to just side step or power shield because you'll break out of that faster. Even if you Shine Falco out of his illusion with Fox or Wolf, the same thing will happen.

I still say the best way for anyone to understand (if they're curious) is to fly to Hawaii. I promise that you will get your moneys worth.

 

[FirebyrdXX]

Not even d-tilt or d-smash? I swear I've hit Falcos out of the move with relative ease before. You know, I think I'm going to do some testing and find out what works best. I dont doubt at all that your friend is better as Falco then mine though.

I'd love to go back to Hawaii some time, beautiful place. I went last summer on a cruise. You're lucky to live there.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Yes I know the normal chain grab will not work. The Falco that I play with is far above normal.

Countering the illusion is not easy at all. And I'm sure that upsmash would work if the Falco was careless enough to actually go that high and challenge the up smash. There's no need for Falco to have to aim that high off of a ledge hop. A good Falco will go for the ledge first and then bide his time while he decides how to get back up.

NL is not a good choice against the illusion because at best it will clank and falco will go straight through you. It would be better to just side step or power shield because you'll break out of that faster. Even if you Shine Falco out of his illusion with Fox or Wolf, the same thing will happen.

I still say the best way for anyone to understand (if they're curious) is to fly to Hawaii. I promise that you will get your moneys worth.

I thought Nayru's Love had priority over moves approaching with the body, like Fox and Falco's Illusion, Peach Bomber, Ganondorf's Gerudo Dragon and Capt. Falcon Raptor Boost, do they changed this in Brawl?

And why do not edgehog him? I know is difficult because I went to edgehog him but the phantasm hit me and almost got me spiked

 

[Darkmusician]

The physics of the moves in Melee made it alot easier to Nayru's Love everything.

And edge hogging is more than doable with the huge amount of Invi. Frames granted when you grab the ledge. There are times when it is better to try for than others.

And yeah Firebyrd. Come again anytime. Brawl is very much alive in Hawaii as you saw in the montage. :]

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if you have ungodly timing... you could probably lightning kick him out of it... otherwise, Fsmash orUsmash should do it.

 

[Darkmusician]

I have kicked him out of it a couple times. Usmash no. As I said a good falco will not side b at that height because they know how good the U smash is against the bird.

F smash I guess at times could work, but that Side B is just too good.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I know I've usmashed him out of it before because Umsash ALSO hits at Zelda's sides... not just above her, and has INSANE prioriy (as we all know)

 

[RoyalBlood]

Oh and a little off topic, how do i get out of Pikachu's D-smash, is just so annoying to get caught in it =/

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Oh and a little off topic, how do i get out of Pikachu's D-smash, is just so annoying to get caught in it =/

constantly smash DI to get out... but be SURE to be ready if you don't get out... he can normally follow up with Thunder... so if you get hit by the whole attack be ready to:
-DI to the side
-Airdodge
-Use Nayru's love

 

[FirebyrdXX]

Oh and a little off topic, how do i get out of Pikachu's D-smash, is just so annoying to get caught in it =/

That's an easy Smash to get out of since while it hits multiple times, there quite a gap in between each hit. Just Smash DI up and to one of the sides.

And I'm glad I have your permission to return DMusician.