~ Zelda's Matchups ~ (obselete thread/check stickies)

[GodAtHand]

I'm with MrEh on this one, I know it does not matter I just thought I show my opinion/support.

 

[mountain_tiger]

MK is worse the Gdub. But the matchup is still so outrageously bad that arguing which is worse doesn't make much of a difference.

In a sense, all three matchups suck, you're right. But MK and Snake suck ever so slightly less than Mr. Game and Watch (it's like he was programmed solely to beat Zelda. Even if you switch to Sheik it's still like 35:65 or something).

 

[Kataefi]

So... any requests on matchups? There's a lot of discrepancies on MK and GW so I'll move them both down if multiple people feel differently about them.

 

[Kaffei]

Zelda vs Olimar.

I hate him.

 

[sniperworm]

MK is harder than G&W for Zelda in an actual game. G&W's moveset is slower, more specialized, and more commited than MK's, which makes him far easier to predict, easier to react to, and easier to punish. The main reason why G&W is nearly as bad as MK is because G&W seems like he was made to counter Zelda, MK is just a really great character.

So yeah, G&W always has a really good option against Zelda, but he generally only has one or two good options at any given moment. MK, on the other hand, always has lots of good options which makes him harder to predict (and therefore harder to stop).

Zelda vs Olimar.

I hate him.

I second this. Not the discussing the MU because it's dumb, but the hating Olimar.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i'd be open of Oli too just incase i'm fighting a randomized Oli, otherwise im just going Peach.

 

[MrEh]

So... any requests on matchups? There's a lot of discrepancies on MK and GW so I'll move them both down if multiple people feel differently about them.

MK and Gdub really aren't worth arguing about. Like SniperWorm said, MK is the harder matchup. (but not by much)

MK just has too many options.

 

[zeldspazz]

Can we do Lucas/Ness, I keep facing a very good Lucas on Wifi and dont know the matchup too well

 

[MrEh]

Can we do Lucas/Ness, I keep facing a very good Lucas on Wifi and dont know the matchup too well

Well, it's wifi. Most of the time, matchups are hard to gauge on wifi due to the lag. Any character with a fast high priority move usually wrecks on wifi. Example, Snake or Ike.

Lucas and Ness are probably evenish though.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Wifi = Lucas's Usmash hitting more often than it should, BTW.

 

[zeldspazz]

Well, it's wifi. Most of the time, matchups are hard to gauge on wifi due to the lag. Any character with a fast high priority move usually wrecks on wifi. Example, Snake or Ike.

Lucas and Ness are probably evenish though.

Well, actually we have an amazing connection, practically lagless, but I'll take your word for it.

Im too good to get hit by Usmash ^^ (jk)

 

[Kataefi]

Because there's a bit of confusion as to the matchups... let's put MK as our hardest, followed by the likes of GW, Snake, Olimar etc... as hard counters, that being 30:70 to illustrate the point. Is everyone cool with this?

I'll update the chart tonight with Marth and Diddy - It's looking like 35:65 and 40:60/45:55 Diddy so far according to the higher level players.

 

[zeldspazz]

Hmm, I think Metaknight and GaW are the same tbh, and then Snake and Oli being slightly less

IMO: Metaknight, GaW = 25:75
Snake = 30:70
Olimar = 35:65

^^ Thats just me

 

[Kataefi]

Any requests after lucas and oli?

 

[KayLo!]

Pikachu.

For obvious reasons, lol. I also think the current ratio (or whatever one was in the old thread) is balls and completely wrong.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if we're doing lucas right now, let's do ness immediately afterwards. it only makes sense to knock those two out of the way in quick succession.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Toon Links are rediscussing the Zelda matchup at our boards. Please contribute ^_^. Here's the thread: Zelda Matchup Rediscussion

 

[mountain_tiger]

Pikachu.

For obvious reasons, lol. I also think the current ratio (or whatever one was in the old thread) is balls and completely wrong.

Out of interest, what do you think the ratio should be?

 

[KayLo!]

Out of interest, what do you think the ratio should be?

Not in Zelda's favor, that's for sure.

Probably 45:55 in Pikachu's favor.... or slightly above that. 40:60 strikes me as too much, but 45:55 seems too even (hence why the ratio system fails, but that's a story for another day).... a slighty bigger than slight advantage for Pika.

Make sense? =X

 

[mountain_tiger]

You mean it was considered in her favour in the first place? I don't know that much about the matchup, but I wouldn't have thought it was to her advantage at all...

 

[KayLo!]

Pretty sure it was listed as even or slightly in Zelda's favor.... the Pikas had it that way as well for a while.

Maybe I just saw something really outdated, but I wanna set the record straight.

I also just like contributing, and I've played this matchup many times from both sides.... so I can write one of my super detailed posts, lol.

 

[Kataefi]

Kaylo you must contain your excitement for the time being until we get olimar and lucas done!... hopefully this is in time for you to have a few zelda MMs in hawaii... and if Ninjalink goes then MM him too, for the epic factor!

I'm very excited!

 

[sniperworm]

I think we should discuss Ganon and Captain Falcon 5 times in a row so that we can feel better about using Zelda, lol. But seriously, just going down the tier list is fine.

Not in Zelda's favor, that's for sure.

Probably 45:55 in Pikachu's favor.... or slightly above that. 40:60 strikes me as too much, but 45:55 seems too even (hence why the ratio system fails, but that's a story for another day).... a slighty bigger than slight advantage for Pika.

Make sense? =X

Um, if you really feel that strongly about it, you could use ratios between 40:60 and 45:55.

Kaylo you must contain your excitement for the time being until we get olimar and lucas done!... hopefully this is in time for you to have a few zelda MMs in hawaii... and if Ninjalink goes then MM him too, for the epic factor!

I'm very excited!

I dunno, Olimar and Lucas are relatively easy to discuss (and therefore should finish very quickly). Olimar destroys Zelda and Lucas doesn't really matter (no offense intended Lucas players) because we can see that it's relatively even (so neither side counters the other, making it an unlikely CP) and both characters are uncommon enough where our time is better spent discussing more likely matchups.

Also, HSI this weekend. It's not too late to drop everything you're doing, buy a plane ticket, and have a nice vacation in Hawaii (I guess there's the actual HSI too, but really now).

 

[mountain_tiger]

I nominate ZSS for discussion after we're done with Olimar and Lucas.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I still say whilst we're in the lucas mindset, do Ness.

 

[KayLo!]

Um, if you really feel that strongly about it, you could use ratios between 40:60 and 45:55.

All right, then. 43:57 Pikachu's favor. I hate the whole ratio system in general, to be honest.... I just accept that it's necessary and the standard we have to work with. Unfortunately. -_-

I still say whilst we're in the lucas mindset, do Ness.

Meh.

I'll do special testing for you, Kata, if we do Pikachu next.

Also, I have boobies.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Meh.

might not be the most fun, but it'll be the easiest. We could always do two more at once...

Also, I have boobies.

When I grow up . . .

 

[Kataefi]

I'll do special testing for you, Kata, if we do Pikachu next.

Also, I have boobies.

Special testing you say? LOL! I guess being a mod does have its benefits after all hahaaaa!

Okay we shall do Pika and Ness next... for some reason I'm expecting the Ness one to be quite heated. ZSS can wait because that was requested after...!

 

[XFadingNirvanaX]

This is just an idea but in each matchup could it show the best kill move(s) recommended for each char? Or would that make Zelda look even more predictable? x.x

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Okay we shall do Pika and Ness next... for some reason I'm expecting the Ness one to be quite heated. ZSS can wait because that was requested after...!

can't see why. He is much like lucas, but easier.

 

[mountain_tiger]

can't see why. He is much like lucas, but easier.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Oh wait, were you being serious? Seriously, Ness and Lucas are NOT alike. The only things they share are specials (which all function differently anyway) and the extra 10 frames on their grab release.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Oh wait, were you being serious? Seriously, Ness and Lucas are NOT alike.

you're being silly. they are "much like" each other. They are hardly identical, but they share many qualities.

 

[mountain_tiger]

you're being silly. they are "much like" each other. They are hardly identical, but they share many qualities.

Let's see. Their PK Fires are fairly similar, though they have different fucntions. Down B and Up B are similar for both. Neutral B functions in the same way, but have totally different effects. So that's three moves so far that can be considered 'shared'. Their FSmashes are kinda similar I guess, though Lucas' is faster and Ness' has more knockback, so they're also different. As stated, they both have 10 frames extra on their grab release, and they're both lower-mid weights.

So that's four or five moves that can be considered 'similar', borked grab releases and similar weights. I fail to see how can be considered 'many qualities'. That's like saying that Wolf and Fox are 'much alike' because they have similar neutral B and down B moves, with fast falling and recovery issues.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

lets just say its a preferance way of thinking then?

we could go all day/night/week/year on how they are different/similar, but if someones not changing their mind they aren't.

i use both and have a little strategy that caters to both PKkids sometimes, but most of the time i find Ness and Lucas to be very different, both when im using and fighting them.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

words

don't forget about Dtilt and uair!

but really, they play differently, but there is a lot of overlap as well.

 

[XFadingNirvanaX]

More rediscussions! pip-pip!

 

[Supreme65]

Just avoid MK, Snake, GnW and Peach. I've been reading GnW haven't been doing too well. Except Hylian

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Just avoid MK, Snake, GnW and Peach. I've been reading GnW haven't been doing too well. Except Hylian

not that peach doesn't hav an advantaged matchup, but I'd take Zelda against a bracket full of peaches before I took her into one with one good olimar, who you didn't list.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Just avoid MK, Snake, GnW and Peach. I've been reading GnW haven't been doing too well. Except Hylian

Zelda vs Peach isn't that bad at all. It's 45:55, 40:60 at worst. And you forgot to mention Olimar.

 

[Kataefi]

It's 40:60 only if you have pretty good reads and powershield her turnips and avoid the Fair with your life. But it gets worse the better she can play around with you. It's a spider/fly scenario imo.

I'll be moving on shortly to discuss pika and ness next.