Zelda vs Sheik

[Soloist]

Browsing the pages of this thread, I see that it has become somewhat of a social thread. So, I just wanted to let you all know that there actually exists...on this earth...in real life...wait for it...

Another Zelda player! And on top of this, there's even another one in my area!...although he doesn't post on here.

I really wish the activity in the Zelda section wasn't so slow. Makes me cry a little inside, you know?

 

[GKInfinity]

It's actually not that bad. The zelda boards have been completely dead in the past. There's actually slight activity right now

 

[Pikaville]

I switch to Zelda sometimes for the fear factor her heels bring to the table.

Nothing better than racking up a bunch of damage with Sheik then finishing with Zelda.

Troll edgeguarding with her neutral b is really funny too.

I also find fighting Peach easier as Zelda instead of Sheik.

 

[DerfMidWest]

my zelda is better than my sheik...

but thats probably because I don'y use either seriously...

and my sheik isn't gehy...

 

[Dark Hart]

I don't know why anyone would be afraid of Zelda

she's like the slowest thing in existence

 

[Pikaville]

Yes but not many characters can fair>float over>bair as well as her.

The amount of sheild that sucks away alone is silly.

But yes that's about all she has going for her hahaha.

 

[Dark Hart]

Her attacks also send like every character in awkward direction so that ****s people up too since they're like "wtf is Zelda?"

*****es don't know about tomahawk nayru's

 

[ShroudedOne]

I switch to Zelda sometimes for the fear factor her heels bring to the table.

Nothing better than racking up a bunch of damage with Sheik then finishing with Zelda.

Troll edgeguarding with her neutral b is really funny too.

I also find fighting Peach easier as Zelda instead of Sheik.

Lol. Sheik does so much better, though.

Her attacks also send like every character in awkward direction so that ****s people up too since they're like "wtf is Zelda?"

*****es don't know about tomahawk nayru's

Mow discourages it heavily, but I still stand behind Nayru's love OoS. Too good.

 

[oliman]

zelda is really bad. probably worse than ness.

 

[ShroudedOne]

No. Ness is 100% dead once off stage. Zelda at least has a chance.

 

[DerfMidWest]

not true jaiye.

Ness actually has a decent recovery, it just seems way worse than it is.

many characters can't eat his upB and make it back to the stage, the stupid thing also has ridiculous priority and really high knock back.

It takes as much time to aim it as fox takes to start his upB, Ness also has about the same range as foxes upB.

Ness's weight also allows him to live pretty long, his second jump also goes pretty far if he still has it.

 

[oliman]

1. aesir has just been watching a lot of simna.
2. recovery isnt the only thing that matters
3. zelda is so terrible in so many situations that it is funny
4. all that zelda really has is her feet and her dsmash, maybe her neutral b. ness has some better stuff than that. i dont know too much about either character, though. this is just from first impressions.

 

[Dark Hart]

Mow is a ****** who knows none of us are ever gonna be worth anything so he just puts us all down with his higher horse than yours bull**** and then tells everyone why they're bad

though he's right when he says Falco > Fox imo

ledgedash -> nayru's is amazing

 

[ShroudedOne]

When any character in the game can throw Ness offstage at 0 and put him in a life threatening situation, I'm fairly sure that that's BAD. I'm quite sure that situations in which Zelda is bad, Ness would be worse in. If you want to simply point out moves like that, Ness only has bair, and perhaps fair (this argument doesn't really work anyways, since different moves become a lot better in different situations).

Ness's DJ is really slow, and can't sweetspot with it. You can't just run into Fox's recovery and kill him like you can with Ness. Zelda's recovery at least has more than 1 option.

tl;dr: These characters are really bad, why are we arguing this, but Zelda is a good deal better than Ness. Recovery isn't everything, but his recovery is just THAT BAD.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I've been playing a lot of ness too... not just watching...
I also read that one long *** guide on the ness boards lol.

anyways, I was just talking about recovery, since jaiye brought it up.
Ness's recovery isn't that bad is all. Zelda's is better, sure, but she dies fast as hell so w/e.

onstage I believe ness has more as well. unlike zelda, he can combo the crap out of people.
Zelda can kill quick and space those kicks.
Ness has a mini-kick too lol.

neither character really has a great approach though.
But ness has his YYG crap, making him really weird to play against...
I don't think zelda could do anything to ness is he had his thunder jacket on.

 

[ShroudedOne]

YYG isn't really that easy to set up in an actual match, though. Granted, it's not super difficult, but...it's also not that good, really.

 

[DerfMidWest]

When any character in the game can throw Ness offstage at 0 and put him in a life threatening situation, I'm fairly sure that that's BAD. I'm quite sure that situations in which Zelda is bad, Ness would be worse in. If you want to simply point out moves like that, Ness only has bair, and perhaps fair (this argument doesn't really work anyways, since different moves become a lot better in different situations).

Ness's DJ is really slow, and can't sweetspot with it. You can't just run into Fox's recovery and kill him like you can with Ness. Zelda's recovery at least has more than 1 option.

tl;dr: These characters are really bad, why are we arguing this, but Zelda is a good deal better than Ness. Recovery isn't everything, but his recovery is just THAT BAD.

I really think you don't know much about Ness at all...
Ness's recovery is not bad. Its not great, but it is not the worst.

Ness has quite a few good moves also. I'll list them for you.
uair, dair, fair, bair, nair, fsmash, dtilt, utilt, dthrow, fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, upB (watch simna), sideB, usmash (lol YYG)

also, ness is #1 on the low tier tourney tier list.... lol.

 

[Wake]

Sheik does better against Peach I think. I have a Zelda in my area (the person who made this thread), and once you get it down, Zelda is still bad. She can be annoying, but not as annoying as Sheik, I think.

 

[DerfMidWest]

YYG isn't really that easy to set up in an actual match, though. Granted, it's not super difficult, but...it's also not that good, really.

its very good.
Thunder jacket is the funniest thing ever.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Max, you're delusional. I could also call Zelda's fsmash, usmash, uair, neutral B, nair (which is fairly decent, actually) all good moves, but to be honest, they are all quite situational. I think that you are getting far too swept up in whatever you've been watching. (I will give you that his utilt is decent)

And do you honestly think Ness has a viable recovery?

Also, Zelda has range.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Yes, I do believe that ness has a viable recovery. Its a slightly worse version of Fox's recovery, imo.
Its not a great recovery, but it isn't that bad.

Zelda does have range, ness's lack of range is his main problem (he does have attacks like fair and dash attack though).

I honestly don't think you know very much about ness at all.
He isn't amazing or anything, but he has more options than you seem to think.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I also fear that you might be overestimating him. I think that whatever good points that he may have (and he does have some) are overshadowed by two extremely glaring weakness: Range and recovery. On paper, it seems like a worse version of Fox's, because it simply has slightly more startup time, but if you end his up B, he's dead, Max. If you end Fox's up B, he can still up B again.

No, Zelda does not have combos. But I believe she has more killing power, since her main moves are stronger (deal more damage and have more KB) than Ness's (bair/fair, as opposed to bair/uair/dair).

In any case, I'm arguing something that you aren't, it seems. Even if Ness doesn't have the worst recovery in the game, his is certainly among them, and that alone hinders him a lot.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I still disagree...
You cannot hit ness out of his upB once it starts moving. Once he's out of it, if you smack him, he will just upB again. His weight prevents him from being sent too far.

Ness has fine killing power. His bat is really strong. His throws also send people really far, which sets up a lot of things.
Ness also has plenty of gimps.

Anyways, I'd say Ness's recovery is only as bad as Falco's simply because it moves slowly and its difficult to control. People tend to think Ness's recovery is much worse than it really is.

and as for Ness's range, yes that is a weakness, but he does have moves with decent range (fair, dash attack, fsmash)

 

[Wake]

"Ness's recovery is only as bad as Falco's" This I find pretty ridiculous. I agree with SillyOne. Interrupting his up-b is just too easy. "You cannot hit ness out of his upb once it starts moving." I'm not sure about this honestly, but I want to say that it can be intercepted.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Ness's upB has some high *** priority. You probably aren't going to be hitting him out of it.

And I think that Ness's recovery is a little worse than falco's. Ness is vulnerable before it starts moving (falco is vulnerable the whole time), but ness's is a little harder to control and he can't ride the wall, but its also harder to gimp once it starts moving.
Ness's weight combined with his floatyness (and his large second jump) allow him to live for a pretty long time.

 

[TheLake]

zelda is really bad. probably worse than ness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_3Prou9YxU

I couldnt agree more

 

[DerfMidWest]

We were talking about the character in general, not the MU.

 

[ShroudedOne]

=D

Lake, I was looking for that vid. Thanks. I forgot that it was under DJTalent. That vid pretty much shows why Ness's recovery is bad. And I'm quite sure that there are moves that trade with Up B, which still leave him in a bad position (Peach's fair would be one).

 

[DerfMidWest]

I don't think thats true until the move actually ends.
when he stops moving then yea you can hit him out of it, but if he sweetspots the ledge (which is hard on Battlefield)

 

[Dark Hart]

Aesir, you're wrong lol

Ness has probably the most exploitable recovery in game

 

[Deleted member]

and forward smash sleeping jigglypuffs lol

 

[DerfMidWest]

I disagree.
Fox has a more exploitable recovery.
Falco has a more exploitable recovery.
Marth has a more exploitable recovery.
Luigi has a more exploitable recovery.
Falcon has a more exploitable recovery.
Ganon has a more exploitable recovery.
Bowser has a more exploitable recovery.

yea... I'm not saying Ness has a better recovery than (all) of these characters, but its less exploitable.
Ness is vulnerable in the beginning of his upB and at the end. During it, he is much safer than many other characters are in their recoveries.

Is Ness's recovery a weakness? Yes. But its not as bad as many people make it out to be. Many characters are not capable of eating ness's thunder and making it back to the stage. Ness also has tricks to prevent people from intercepting it.
His weight also allows him to survive to very high percents.
Ness is decent on stage as well. He has a nice combo game and some decent kill moves.
He lacks range and his recovery is mediocre, he also has no real approach. These are the reasons he is a bad character.

 

[Dark Hart]

and forward smash sleeping jigglypuffs lol

like 2 years ago

never again

 

[oliman]

ok, i was proved wrong. i just watched the lake vs this one fox (at i think the big house, the first place they went was ys) and i was like "man, zelda just is unable to do anything at all"

 

[Dark Hart]

also Ness's recovery is more exploitable then all of those recoveries you mentioned

 

[GKInfinity]

I disagree.
Fox has a more exploitable recovery... etc

You should probably look up the definition of the word 'exploitable'. I don't think you're using it correctly.

 

[Deleted member]

Mow discourages it heavily, but I still stand behind Nayru's love OoS. Too good.

I encourage nayru's oos heavily vs bad players. if you find someone that it works on, yes roll it on them all day. I discourage bad tactics in general because they are bad, and nayru's oos is HIGHLY exploitable and probably one of the easiest ways i know to make zelda open to grabs. and we all know how well zelda handles grabs.

Mow is a ****** who knows none of us are ever gonna be worth anything so he just puts us all down with his higher horse than yours bull**** and then tells everyone why they're bad

though he's right when he says Falco > Fox imo

ledgedash -> nayru's is amazing

I think some players are very good, just not most of them. Smash is like any other group of people; a few winners, and a whole lot of losers. If you think you're good at the game...well you're probably not. Your state already has its 1 good player, and it's not you. Oddly, higher end smash usually pans out to what you should not do instead of what you should be doing, so the players that listen to my criticisms tend to get a lot better really fast.

ledgedash > nayru's is an awful gimmick and i hope you get ***** for it over and over. but you'll probably say it's the best thing ever, like anyone who "invents" something and unfairly evaluates it. bad players.

edit: wow are we really comparing ness vs zelda? zelda is MUCH MUCH better than ness all day. not even close in terms of relative goodness.

 

[Wake]

You should probably look up the definition of the word 'exploitable'. I don't think you're using it correctly.

hahaha yeahhh I have to agree with this.

 

[DerfMidWest]

also Ness's recovery is more exploitable then all of those recoveries you mentioned

you silly.

 

[Wake]

You're super duper silly.