Zelda Social Thread

[drsusredfish]

I haven't seen much 3.5 zelda videos so is there anybody willing to upload my gameplay replays? I've been using zelda in some interesting ways that some may like. ( redording my tv screen just looks so bad)

 

[LonVoen]

-snip-

Hey now, you can be irritated all you want, just remember to be constructive. And if not constructively, at least polite, haha. We're all Zelda players here!

I also totally agree its too early to be sure of what needs buffs or nerfs, but we might as well talk about it anyway! =)

yo, A++ attitude, 5 stars, would respond to again :]

The problem of it being unintuitive is something we may have to deal with no matter what we do to it. Even boomerang-dins is unintuitive, especially when it goes through the floor or loses its hitbox after hitting someone.

True. It's a bit different, though. It's unintuitive in the same ways as Samus having smash missiles and Zelda's ftilt knocking people behind you are, however. It makes sense after it's explained and a handful of games. Whereas, damage via din-clink (that's my new band name, thx) is a new mechanic to the game entirely and would require distinct visual or auditory feedback (probably both) in order to start to convey properly. I mean, Ike has his self-damaging nB, but that is simply at the end of his attack and has no real consequence on the usage of the move, at least in terms of counterplay. Your iteration of the dins would require looking at matchups in a way foreign to all other characters, which, in itself is not a bad thing! However, the combination of these factors coupled with the PMDT's desire to somewhat homogenize playstyles makes it feel, to me, out-of-place. But again, thinking outside the box is always good for designers to be able to do. Props, dude.

I agree wholeheartedly agree with the return-din hits causing the sideB to fizzle for a moment is very bad in that it makes you wonder why the animation happened and didn't affect anything. In a nebulous sort of way I understand why it exists because I can imagine some stupid abuses cases with certain weight classes (hit, explosion, hit loops). It does need to be more visually clear though. Something like the din changing color or effect for a moment while it is indestructible, or the light-link that appears on zelda's hand flickering. Anything, really. I don't know if it's within the realm of capability but making it so side b doesn't even come out when it won't cause the explosion would be preferable even because at least then you could do option select-esque maneuvers like sideB -> upB. In that case a return-din hit causes side b to whiff so instead of going through a literally useless animation you would upB immediately.

You mentioned that projectiles would force her to approach and getup attacks would prevent it from techchasing. She already had/has to approach projectile users, but she can use dins to block an enemy projectile at the cost of some hp. Also getup attacks don't prevent techchasing, but they do counter the dins-on-wakeup. On the other hand, shield grabs and telecancel grabs do counter getup attacks. So really its more like a rock paper scissors, right?

Hm, would dins clink only projectiles while placing them then? I could see that being alright for a counter-projectile approach option if so! Hard to say if that's implementable, though!

I think this is preferable to having 1 din mine on super long cooldown like we have now, since she can place multiple in different locations to bait clanks and/or zone.

The way I like to look at it instead of being a super long cooldown is it is an indirect pressure tool. By having a dins out you are telling the opponent 'in ~3 seconds you will have to deal with more than just me' while simultaneously forcing them to bait/think out their approaches less because you also have the chance to force that situation to happen immediately if they are too slow and deliberate with their approach. It can make opponents play recklessly which all of the cast enjoys, but especially Zelda with her awesome punishes and great defensive options.
It's still kind of campy, but in a way that also enables offensive options.

On the other hand, shield grabs and telecancel grabs do counter getup attacks. So really its more like a rock paper scissors, right?

It would require testing to say for sure, but it sounds like it would always be optimal for both players to want to play reactively due to the commitment heavy actions of teleporting + placing a dins. Tech chasing is generally made effective by the number of low commitment options the aggressor has, like a jump or a quick running speed. Althooough, I just thought of the fact that fine-tuning that interaction via din placement speed, startup, etc may adversely affect her neutral game in undesirable ways. But again, it could be cool if tested properly and could work in the way you described!

I don't have an opinion on OoS telecancel. I am actually just bad at doing things OoS. I have used it to escape juggles by hitting with the startup though.

Do you use tap-jump? I know it's harder if you don't, but use Usmash OoS, man. It's GLORIOUS and totally worth learning. Like, my friend plays Zsuit and if he's at 0% and does an unsafe approach that I can't shieldgrab, usmash OoS gives the initial usmash -> a followup running usmash -> probably nair or uair (bair or fair instead if he DIs dumb, which can be a kill on levels like warioware if they go towards the blast zones) -> din placement if I can't followup from there. *swoon*

And thank you for the direct response =)

Of course, and ditto!

Yeah, I tend it to use it the same way. It just bothers me that there's a specific mechanic of it that I'm not using :/

It gets exponentially more potent the longer it takes to place, but the two situations where I find myself using it most are edgeguarding so that the hitbox covers a wider area + you get to have it available in case they can avoid it. And the other situation is when I am placing it and the opponent is grounded and likely to shield, thinking I will place it on them. In this case you can place it in front or behind, pop it for extra shield damage (and sometimes you get the hit from its return arc as well when placed in front) and to get it back in the instance that you need to continue to reposition.
Are you using the instant-pop subaction (no idea what it's actually called) after placing it? I wasn't aware of that for awhile but it lets the explosion be relevant in a lot more situations. When the din 'pops' while being placed you can just hit neutral B and zelda will immediately do the explosion-recall. There's still a slight delay, but it FEELS faster. Let me know if you do use it or if you think it feels faster!

 

[BJN39]

Hey now, you can be irritated all you want, just remember to be constructive. And if not constructively, at least polite, haha. We're all Zelda players here!

Exactly.

The point I was trying to make is I'm over it, and I'll be around to hang out and have fun with these great Zeldas again! :D

 

[LonVoen]

Oh, haha. Looks like I misinterpreted your tone. M'bad. Glad everyone is getting along :]

 

[Kaeldiar]

Hey, everyone! I'm going to "close" my survey around tomorrow afternoon (about 15 or so hours following this post), so if you want to get your opinion in, do it now. I'm going to start analysis.

ANY MODS WHO SEE THIS, CAN WE GET THIS THREAD STICKIED? THE SOCIAL THREAD FOR A CHARACTER SHOULD BE STICKIED.

 

[Arcalyth]

Is it me or do the explosion hitboxes seem smaller than the graphics indicate?

 

[4tlas]

Is it me or do the explosion hitboxes seem smaller than the graphics indicate?

I think you're right. I played with them in debug mode and thought they were huge, then played with them normally and I have to be much more precise, probably because I know to not trust the graphic.

 

[WindlessZephyr]

Does anyone know of good 3.5 Zelda footage? She seems horribly underrepresented in the competitive scene; I can't really find anything cool to watch.

 

[4tlas]

Does anyone know of good 3.5 Zelda footage? She seems horribly underrepresented in the competitive scene; I can't really find anything cool to watch.

In the General Discussion forum you can find a thread called "3.5 top videos by character" or something like that. Let me know if you need it linked. It doesn't have much yet as 3.5 only came out a few weeks ago, and I highly doubt what is already there is the "top" like the title suggests, but it's a start.

 

[GMaster171]

I could upload the few matches I played yesterday

Day 1 Zelda but 3.5 lol

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lEojstysvNQ#t=493

 

[4tlas]

Oh also welcome to the forums WindlessZephyr!

 

[WindlessZephyr]

Oh also welcome to the forums WindlessZephyr!

Thank you! I haven't been around on these forums in years, so I don't really know how stuff works anymore. I'll check out the thread in general discussion and see what I find. Heck, maybe I can get some of my own gameplay added in to that list from the tournament I was at yesterday.

 

[4tlas]

There's one for 3.0 as well which won't be helpful for teaching you what to do since Zelda got changed so much, but it might still be fun to watch if youre just looking for entertainment. It should be linked in the 3.5 one, actually.

 

[WindlessZephyr]

Admittedly, I'm not really looking for entertainment. I feel like my Zelda play might be peaking, so I want to learn cool new techniques. From what I've seen, all I really need to do to be extremely good is waveland more.

 

[4tlas]

Admittedly, I'm not really looking for entertainment. I feel like my Zelda play might be peaking, so I want to learn cool new techniques. From what I've seen, all I really need to do to be extremely good is waveland more.

Well I would still recommend you look at some of the 3.0 videos anyway, since even if the tactics you see don't work EXACTLY as advertised, you can still try to reinvent them with new Zelda. Some things won't work but hey, we have to try and redevelop the metagame so we might as well start somewhere, right?

 

[kathy]

Anyone else vastly prefer Zelda's Melee model?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Does anyone know of good 3.5 Zelda footage? She seems horribly underrepresented in the competitive scene; I can't really find anything cool to watch.

Check the most recent videos in the video thread

 

[LonVoen]

Admittedly, I'm not really looking for entertainment. I feel like my Zelda play might be peaking, so I want to learn cool new techniques. From what I've seen, all I really need to do to be extremely good is waveland more.

Okay, my interest is piqued. Any chance we could see some of your play? :D My current 'yo do this' is also wavelands. Zelda's mostly-horizontal wavelands are HUGE.

@ GMaster171 Thanks for sharing! You're really good at selecting smart attacks at the the right time! I tend to just try to do fancy movement and lose a stock haha.

Just got netplay working two days ago and boy have I been cracking out on Anther's ladder. (smashladder.com) Apparently with the new dolphin my laptop can run PM and record with OBS so once I shake out my scrubby online tech skill I'll have some stuff to share too :D

 

[Agi]

Okay, my interest is piqued. Any chance we could see some of your play?

Yo this guy's basically my #1 sparring partner. We've had the worst luck with capture cards (the 4th one is on the way right now), but we should be getting some footage up soon. Ish. He's great at playing the defensive game, waiting things out until he sees an approach he can either CC grab or stuff with one of Zelda's multi-hit attacks and do some of that reliable 0-45+% goodness she's capable of. It is really tough to get in on him when he's on point.

also USmash is ridiculous I really feel like I should be able to get out of that but I don't know how

 

[TimeSmash]

Yo this guy's basically my #1 sparring partner. We've had the worst luck with capture cards (the 4th one is on the way right now), but we should be getting some footage up soon. Ish. He's great at playing the defensive game, waiting things out until he sees an approach he can either CC grab or stuff with one of Zelda's multi-hit attacks and do some of that reliable 0-45+% goodness she's capable of. It is really tough to get in on him when he's on point.

also USmash is ridiculous I really feel like I should be able to get out of that but I don't know how

Any advice on the Zelda Wario matchup by the by? I'm so bad at spacing out his side B it's pathetic, but Nayru's and a shield work a lot. I absolutely HATE that you have a lingering hitbox when I'm chilling on the ledge haha. I've died so many times because of it!

 

[LonVoen]

Awesome! I'd love to see some of his neutral play. Zelda's best combo starter that isn't grab is ftilt I think. But its combo hitbox is, sadly, the inner one and harder to space. Yknow. I never thought of using grab out of CC before so thanks for the info haha!

Is your flair thing correct in saying that you play wario? I'd think he's too wide to SDI out of usmash #thinprivilege (although tbh its very rare I see anyone do it. might only be possible on the very edges in certain cases) If he does usmash OoS a lot, I think (just guessing), you could dtilt his shield after a well spaced fair or something and be too low for Z's usmash. Dtilt would be ok for shield poking as well if he plays TOO defensively. I don't think Z can punish a fair on shield with her own fair so that *may* work. Mix that up with a grab perhaps??

Er. I guess you didn't ask for advice or anything but, uh, my fingers slipped?


EDIT: HEY, ANYONE-- can Zelda DACUS? Does it do anything? I tried doing it for ~5 straight minutes and didn't see anything that looked like a DACUS that whole time. I used to DACUS on snake all the time too so I at least know how to do it :S

 

[Agi]

Yeah, I commit to the air way too much and give up my poking options. I keep trying to FAir while weaving, it gets me USmashed hard. It's mostly a mental game right now, either he's in my head or I'm in his, doing Zelda and Wario things at eachother until we die.

@ TimeSmash Yeah dude, the Side-B's killer. It's incredibly unsafe on shield though - best I can say is to take advantage of whiffs when they happen. A lot of Wario has that 50/50 guessing going on, though less now that we've lost the dashgrab. Nayru's is an incredible move that's always in my face interrupting things, especially at the ledge. The lingering hitbox at the ledge is kinda BS, I'll admit, but it's there. I don't know what it's called, but using your jumping Nayru's thing at the ledge is the best option I've seen to counter the Shoulder Bash threat, as long as you do it early enough to interrupt. Though do it TOO early or too predictably and Wario's going to jump over your head and be in position for a DAir. DThrow ->FTilt -> USmash -> FAir/BAir is something I've been hit by a lot, though DIing down and in gets me out of it... uh, yeah. You've got great anti-air options and lingering things, just gotta be smart about not throwing them out. They're really punishable as soon as the opponent works out when the hitboxes vanish.

Down B is also a really good move but that's a discussion for another day.

also we have a Down Throw chaingrab on Zelda and I feel dumb for not figuring this out earlier
DI down and in and watch out for the cross-up bite techchase or shoulder bash as a coverage option
I am really bad at keeping secrets

 

[4tlas]

EDIT: HEY, ANYONE-- can Zelda DACUS? Does it do anything? I tried doing it for ~5 straight minutes and didn't see anything that looked like a DACUS that whole time. I used to DACUS on snake all the time too so I at least know how to do it :S

Well I can't DACUS, but I play Sheik so I'm used to boost grabbing which should still have the same visual effect. Sometimes I boost grab as Zelda just by habit, and it does seem to make me go a TINY bit further. Like, so tiny it makes me think its placebo. But on the other hand I assumed it would do nothing, so the fact that I saw anything at all is probably not placebo...

 

[LonVoen]

I played around with boost grabbing for a bit and found it pretty inconclusive as well. I was of the understanding that those techniques were dependent on character friction and initial speed of the dash attack. Zelda's friction seems middling or high to me (based on wavedash distance) but her dash attack looks as though she gets a boost forward at the very beginning so I'd think it would work. The boost at the beginning could just be a visual illusion from animation blending since her running animation is straight up and her dash animation puts her bent forward very early. Hm. Unfortunately the wiki entries I read don't go into the details. Time for some forum digging :]

DThrow ->FTilt -> USmash -> FAir/BAir is something I've been hit by a lot, though DIing down and in gets me out of it... uh, yeah.

You should be able to DI out for the DThrow -> Ftilt. It's a DI mixup with our fthrow. fthrow you want to DI in the direction zelda is facing, dthrow you want to DI in the opposite direction. Not sure if DIing up or down as well helps or anything more specific than that.

 

[4tlas]

I think its reasonable that it would just be visual illusion due to animations, but I was also surprised by how far I grabbed from. Good luck finding something on the forums though, I've never seen anything.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Awesome! I'd love to see some of his neutral play. Zelda's best combo starter that isn't grab is ftilt I think. But its combo hitbox is, sadly, the inner one and harder to space. Yknow. I never thought of using grab out of CC before so thanks for the info haha!

The inner hitbox doesn't combo, the sweetspot does (which is on her hand). The inner hitbox is the one that sends them away from you, while the hand hitbox pulls them above you.

 

[4tlas]

You should be able to DI out for the DThrow -> Ftilt. It's a DI mixup with our fthrow. fthrow you want to DI in the direction zelda is facing, dthrow you want to DI in the opposite direction. Not sure if DIing up or down as well helps or anything more specific than that.

Gah edits after I respond to things. lol

You can easily option select for any other throw then switch to dthrow (down and away) before the throw finishes.

However, fthrow and bthrow are both pretty quick and are a DI mixup.

Upthrow is weird. For floaty characters, at low percents you want to DI to either side to avoid upair followups but you'll get hit by nair instead, whereas at high percents you dont want to DI at all so you fly too high to get hit again. As a fastfaller, mix up your DI from side to side at low percents to screw up the chaingrab, but at high percent you want to DI to whichever side the lightning kick is less likely to kill you from or dont DI and just get upair'd (hopefully not for a kill).

At least I think that's right. Can't tell if my opponents are bad or if they don't have an option to get out of Zelda's sexiness.

 

[LonVoen]

 

[Agi]

You should be able to DI out for the DThrow -> Ftilt. It's a DI mixup with our fthrow. fthrow you want to DI in the direction zelda is facing, dthrow you want to DI in the opposite direction. Not sure if DIing up or down as well helps or anything more specific than that.

Oh yeah, no worries there. I figured the DI out after the first couple times I got hit by that particular string. The DI mixup hasn't come up yet in our play though - I think what I'll start doing is holding my DI for the FThrow since that comes out the fastest, and switch the DI if I see the animation for the other throws starting. Thanks for the advice though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovtvop0JZdQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQsF7m4XwRc
I also completely forgot - we actually do have a bit of doubles footage, my Wario and Zeph's Zelda (Storm in the tag) at a monthly at a local college. Winners and Grands, in order. It was a free entry Day 1 3.5 tourney, but we were still happy to've won.

 

[4tlas]

doubles footage

Doubles is always very weird, since there is so much more happening at once. It is difficult to boil strategy down enough to determine what 'optimal' play is. Something you may want to consider (if you want advice, if not just ignore me) is when to save your teammate as opposed to punish your opponent. You both seemed to vastly prefer turning the game into 2 1v1s whenever possible, as well as punishing opponents over saving teammates. Perhaps my playstyle is just different, but I will always value saving my teammate more, and as Zelda I can often do both.

Lightning Kicks are super quick and allow Zelda to pressure opponents in tandem with their teammate. If the field looks like opponent-you-opponent-teammate, the Zelda player (either you or the teammate) can throw out Lightning Kicks easily to zone/trap the opponent inbetween you. Even if you are the Zelda player, it is still difficult for the leftmost opponent to intervene because LK is just that fast.

Dins was better for this in 3.02, but it allows you to help pressure an opponent from afar. So lets say Zelda is edgeguarding, and the field looks like this: Zelda-teammate-opponent. Zelda can place a Din on the far side of the opponent to restrict his movement/spacing options. If the field looks like this: Zelda-opponent-teammate, Zelda can place a Dins on the ledge to at least interfere/delay the recovery while helping her teammate sandwich the opponent.

Another thing you can do with Dins (that worked differently in 3.02) is save your teammate with it while they are being combo'd. You can either place it on the comboing opponent or recall it through him.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I re-opened the survey, because I won't be able to get to it until next week. If you have made any new revelations about Zelda (especially after Magus' big long explanations), feel free to change your responses. IF YOU CHANGE YOUR RESPONSES, then please edit your old response, AND ALSO make a new post letting me know that you've changed something. I have the current responses recorded, so if you don't do this, I will not know to update your answers.

 

[Deleted member]

remember when i made a post a while ago that the zelda players are emotionally volatile? then everyone got mad at me? well, i take that back, about half of the zelda players are emotionally volatile, and i feel sorry for the normal ones that have to put up with you.

3.02 zelda was a horrible design for reasons i've covered like a hundred times. she was going to get changed whether i was there or not because she was stupid.

For a little while I thought I was able to tolerate you, but I'm tired of you snobby attitude. I feel sorry for the people who think you're always right. I'm not blaming you as if you were the one to design the character, but a lot of people seem to look to your posts as the gold standard for factual statements and convince themselves that you must be right, and anybody who disagrees with you is either a bad player or crazy. I'm terribly sorry if my defensiveness annoys you, but you're the reason for it. I love Zelda, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I think her changes were at all positive just to stroke your ego.

Also, thank you for your assessment of my emotional stability based solely on my occasional posts about a single video game character. I guess that Psychology 101 class you took years ago has really been paying off.

 

[Deleted member]

right, it's my fault that you're emotionally volatile and condescending. this has nothing to do with you.

 

[Deleted member]

You're calling me condescening? You know the old saying about the pot and the kettle, right? I'm sure you do. And there we go again with the "emotionally volatile" accusations. Is the good doctor going to diagnose me too?

You know what, why don't we just agree to skip over each other's posts from now on. Neither of us values what the other has to say, so for the sake of the rest of the forum, we'll just pretend the other person doesn't exist. Adios.

 

[LonVoen]

 

[4tlas]

So I don't really want to get into this and I certainly don't want to create more arguing. But I really think someone has to say it...

You're both partially right. Go back and read the posts that brought you here, and if you actually look at what you posted withOUT the context that was in your head, you might see where the fight is coming from and where the other person is right.

Sorry, I just feel the need to try to end arguments that get personal.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Well, I think that @Oracle showed tonight that he's the best 3.5 Zelda at the moment. Holy crap, you had all of our Skype Social cheering! I'm so glad to see some top level Zelda play in 3.5, and I can't wait until TLoc posts the videos on Youtube. Only thing I noticed was not using teleport from onstage to cover the ledge. You can autosnap from above if you let go of down after you start moving.

 

[4tlas]

Sounds like nobody watched me tonight, as you were all watching TLoc.

Good, I sucked miserably once I got on stream lol

And my commentary was **** without anyone to play off of.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Hey everyone! I'm closing the poll tonight, so this is your ACTUAL last chance to get something in. I have started to organize the raw data, and I'll begin analysis whenever I get home, sometime on the 15th. I have no clue exactly when, but that's my best guess. If you would like to look at the raw data, I have made a spreadsheet for your viewing pleasure. The colors indicate background, because that's what I just so happened to be analyzing when I decided to make the spreadsheet public

I WILL BE STREAMING ANALYSIS THAT DAY/NIGHT!!! I'll tweet it out (@elevenoclockish) whenever I go live. I really don't know when I'll be going live, because I'll have the entire day off, so I'll either be sleeping, eating, or streaming. If you have any questions, that will be the best time to ask them, because I explain things better by talking through them. I will also do my best to explain my methodology in my "report," which will be posted on Smashboards either in the old Survey thread or in a new thread.

The stream will be www.twitch.tv/Kaeldiar and I hope to see you all then!!

EDIT: Will not be getting home until tomorrow morning, so the stream has been postponed until tomorrow.

 

[LonVoen]