Zelda Social Thread

[GMaster171]

Is this still active? Can I get in on the Skype chat?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Is this still active? Can I get in on the Skype chat?

Yes! This is definitely active. Most of the talking has been taking place on more specific boards as of late, and the Skype chat is always active. If you PM me your Skype name, I will add you in.

 

[4tlas]

The Skype chat is always active, but not always in ways you want it to be lol

It's definitely a social chat, not just a PM Zelda chat. =)

 

[Kaeldiar]

^ The Skype Social is more of a Social chat. Most of our Zelda specific stuff happens on the boards, especially when we figure something out. There's also a fair amount of Smash 4 talk now, since a lot of us (but not me :'( ) are playing that

 

[4tlas]

Also I noticed you have a shiny PMDT purple ribbon! What do you do on the PMDT (if you don't mind me asking)?

 

[GMaster171]

I'm nothing special really, just a playtester. I don't have the artistic genius of the artists nor the programming knowledge of the coders... but I can hit buttons pretty good.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Is this still active? Can I get in on the Skype chat?

Looks like Kaeldiar already helped you out, but of course you are more than welcome to get in on it. See you soon!

 

[4tlas]

I'm nothing special really, just a playtester. I don't have the artistic genius of the artists nor the programming knowledge of the coders... but I can hit buttons pretty good.

Do you playtest Zelda? Or Ness? (I see you have the PM Ness icon)

 

[GMaster171]

I playtest Ness mostly, I'm interested in playing Zelda in 3.5 tho. (tho I haven't played much at all)

 

[the_irish_dude]

Yo Gmaster I play with Zeej alot since he is my teammate as well. What do you think of his Ness?

 

[GMaster171]

To be honest I haven't seen much if it yet, I'll try to check out some of his videos.

 

[Deleted member]

Rant incoming!

Zelda plays the same way she always has; she's just a lot worse at it now thanks to a worse Din's, worse teledash, and worse Lightning kicks (which might have actually been a reasonable change if not for everything else.) Sorry, but that's the truth, and anybody who says otherwise is fooling themselves.

The new Din's is cool looking, I'll give it that. It's just much less useful. Her ability to control space was nerfed to hell while her slow mobility stayed the same. You're pretty much never going to hit them with the end explosion either since the explosion is smaller and it's incredibly easy to avoid a single Din's, especially when it glows white to warn you when it's about to explode. And yeah, she can set one up more quickly, but you have to wait for it to return to you before you can reposition it. It doesn't even travel back to you in a straight line but does this weird little jump, which only makes it harder for the Zelda player use.You could set up 2 of the previous Din's in that amount of time, so the speed increase isn't as useful as you might think.

There was absolutely no reason to "fix" her teledash either. It's nice that you can shorten it in the air, but its usefulness on the ground went down since she doesn't get that wavedash movement out of it anymore. It's tougher to move on platforms as well. Yeah, I know it might be made better in the future, but that's not going to help her right now, and I still don't think she'll ever get the previous teledash's ground utility back. I spent a lot of time learning how to use that move only for it to be unnecessarily changed.

How anybody could think these changes somehow make her a more fun character is beyond me. I guess it makes her more fun to play against though, but only because she's less of a threat and other characters are better at avoiding her traps and taking advantage of her now. Of course it's more fun for the opponent when they have an easier time winning. Call me a whiner and a pessimist all you want, I don't really care. I liked my character and now, this far in developememt, you drastically changed her for the worse. I think I'm allowed to be a little upset.

And congrats to all the Zelda haters, you got what you wanted. She's now even less relevant than she was before . At least self-appointed Zelda expert Lord Umbreon likes her now, which is all that really mattered I suppose. I'm going to be waiting and watching for you to become the next Zhime since you obviously care so much about the character and are much more knowledgable than he was. Let's see those winning videos!

 

[Oracle]

Zeldas new design is great, she was really stupid before so its a welcome change. I just have a few tiny issues with her stuff

-Camera following the dins when it de tethers is obnoxious, really think it should only follow the dins when its tethered
- did her grab range get nerfed or something? Feels a little worse but idk, changelog just says they cleaned up the hit boxes
-the detonation on the dins doesnt have a much bigger hitbox than the proximity one, so its really hard to land, and also seems kind of weak. I might advocate making it a tad stronger to compensate for how difficult to land it is, but idk if that would be dumb or not

 

[the_irish_dude]

COME UP HERE AND SAY THAT TO MY FACE ORACLE!

jk.

I am enjoying new Zelda. I do feel like her grab got nerfed but idk.

Also, keep me away from the computer. I cant stop making these

http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/2nwhlz/zelda_must_really_like_ghz/

 

[SpiderMad]

Dont get me started....
Because I wont stop.

Do it

 

[Prynne]

Zeldas new design is great, she was really stupid before so its a welcome change.

I am a bit confused; what specifically about Zelda do you believe was stupid? Was it the intention behind her design, and the subsequent result? Or was it the manner in which she was used, given the tools she had? Not to go into semantics, but what do you mean by "stupid"?

 

[Oracle]

She had a powerful camping mechanic with dins, which was exacerbated by her waveland out of teleport, which had no reliable counterplay, she got out of juggles at very little risk with nayrus, she was not edgeguardable by the majority of the cast, and in general she followed almost none of the rules that the rest of the characters in the game follow. Theres plenty of other stuff but the end result was a character that didnt take the same skills to use as most other characters.

I actually loved playing zelda and thought that her design was ok in the earlier builds like 2.5, where lots of characters 'broke the rules', but with the game coming to be a little more homogenized, most of the stuff that zelda had just doesnt fit

 

[Deleted member]

And congrats to all the Zelda haters, you got what you wanted. She's now even less relevant than she was before . At least self-appointed Zelda expert Lord Umbreon likes her now, which is all that really mattered I suppose. I'm going to be waiting and watching for you to become the next Zhime since you obviously care so much about the character and are much more knowledgable than he was. Let's see those winning videos!

remember when i made a post a while ago that the zelda players are emotionally volatile? then everyone got mad at me? well, i take that back, about half of the zelda players are emotionally volatile, and i feel sorry for the normal ones that have to put up with you.

3.02 zelda was a horrible design for reasons i've covered like a hundred times. she was going to get changed whether i was there or not because she was stupid.

 

[Prynne]

She had a powerful camping mechanic with dins, which was exacerbated by her waveland out of teleport, which had no reliable counterplay, she got out of juggles at very little risk with nayrus, she was not edgeguardable by the majority of the cast, and in general she followed almost none of the rules that the rest of the characters in the game follow. Theres plenty of other stuff but the end result was a character that didnt take the same skills to use as most other characters.

I actually loved playing zelda and thought that her design was ok in the earlier builds like 2.5, where lots of characters 'broke the rules', but with the game coming to be a little more homogenized, most of the stuff that zelda had just doesnt fit

I agree to a certain extent. Yes, it was "stupid" but for a different reason. She was rather Marth or Sheik-like in concept, where she was easy to pick up and play, but always underperformed on the grand scale, where Fox and the like always shined, due to the higher technical ceiling and risk involved in playing him. The only inherent problem with the remainder of the analysis is that Din's did not make for a sufficient camping tool on its own, even in conjunction with the teledash. Din's fire served no reasonable purpose other than to give Zelda some semblance of a pressure game, while Teledash was a semi-viable approach. Din's was paper-thin in functionality. All one would need to do was clank it and move on. Letting Zelda get 3 out at once was all on the opponent, as she is frequently vulnerable during the casting animation of Din's. Attempting to camp with Din's for even the majority of a match resulted in slaughter. It could be seen as bad design because, rather than provide Zelda with more options, it worked heavily by removing them from other players, which is where the frustration towards the move potentially comes in to play. It also doubled as a combo tool, in some instances, but far less reliably. Of course, this inherently doesn't make the design bad, just counterintuitive. Zelda's other tools were decently sufficient without Din's, so why the choice was made to gut several other aspects of her design such as Kicks/usmash/nair/aerial Nayru's, completely redesign Din's, and alter teledash wildly, I can never be absolutely sure.

because she was stupid.

Yes.

 

[the_irish_dude]

remember when i made a post a while ago that the zelda players are emotionally volatile? then everyone got mad at me? well, i take that back, about half of the zelda players are emotionally volatile, and i feel sorry for the normal ones that have to put up with you.

3.02 zelda was a horrible design for reasons i've covered like a hundred times. she was going to get changed whether i was there or not because she was stupid.

If "half" are normal then all of them are normal. There is not a lesser or greater group to compare to. If you want to prove your point just say "60%" are normal.

 

[Deleted member]

If "half" are normal then all of them are normal. There is not a lesser or greater group to compare to. If you want to prove your point just say "60%" are normal.

im not going for a quantitative definition

 

[Kaeldiar]

@ the_irish_dude , @Umbreon, play nice both of you

 

[the_irish_dude]

so what, big deal. wanna fight about it?

 

[LonVoen]

On a scale of no to yes: is telecancel OoS stupid or am I stupid

 

[Arcalyth]

To illustrate why Zelda is stupid in 3.02:

Zelda vs Fox - If Fox makes a mistake he loses. If Fox plays patiently, Zelda can't do anything about it. In neutral, Din's and Farore's startup is too long to not get run>upsmash'd. Her normals are non-threatening to a dash-dancing Fox due to her own slow mobility. She can /try/ to approach with aerial Nayru's and SH>kick>kick/waveland but Fox will likely cover her landing with a nair, usmash, or crossup. Zelda has to play the option coverage game 100% perfectly from her first hit in neutral (if Fox messes up). Fox wins neutral against Zelda 100% of the time. In 3.5 Zelda can actually cover space in midrange/neutral without ridiculous startup, thus Fox does not win neutral against Zelda 100% of the time anymore. It's actually a playable matchup now.

Zelda vs Wario - Wario can just dair Din's for free, and his aerial mobility prevents Zelda from hitting with much else. Her grounded moves are too slow for his weaving, her aerial mobility is significantly slower than Wario's so she'll usually lose aerial trades. How will Zelda hit Wario to win? In 3.5, new Din's fire allows Zelda to cover Wario's airspace, with conversions into big damage off of the manual detonation. Playable matchup.

Zelda vs Mewtwo - Well, Mewtwo was kinda broken in 3.02 as well, but in an actually "broken" kind of way. Oracle made a good point about 2.5, and how the overall homogenization of the 3.0 and beyond necessitates changes to Zelda. I agree with him as someone who has been playing and supporting Zelda since 2.1 and as someone who spends a significant portion of his time analyzing this game. But I digress; Zelda really couldn't do anything about Mewtwo's tail. Mewtwo got nerfed appropriately in 3.5 and now this is a playable matchup. It likely would have been with 3.0 Zelda, but as stated earlier, everything in the game is being normalized so that we don't have these crazy polarizing outlying matchups like the two I listed above.

-----

I implore all Zelda players to give this new incarnation a fair shot, because (and, I was guilty of this two weeks ago) everybody is crying without actually experimenting with the changes.

We are better off discussing new tactics involving the new fireball than we are pining for the changes to be reverted. They will not be reverted and overall this Zelda IS healthier for Project M as a whole, especially with the rest of the cast being toned down slightly as well. No longer are Project M matchups explained in terms of how janky their character is, or what mechanics could be abused. This was definitely the case pre-3.5. The game now favors smart play with good balances of risk and reward. The game now favors midrange interaction between characters without detracting from fast, momentum-based gameplay, nor a complex and nuanced neutral game. The game is now less "press the PM button to win" or "Project Make it Back."

-----

Actual tactical discussion:

I think of the new Din's Fire in terms of the size of the fireball and its 3 phases.
Small/Medium/Large fireball;
Waiting/Recall/Detonation phase.

Small fireballs are quick to deploy and quick to return. They do a little bit (6%? iirc?) of fire damage. Their speed makes them quite usable in Neutral.
A small waiting fireball can be deployed quickly on the ground to pop opponents toward Zelda, poke under shields, and generally just slow your opponent down. I find it most effective to harass opponents quickly with grounded fireballs at low percents, then curve the fireball slightly upward (not touching the ground) so that you can take advantage of the recall hit at mid (40+) percents.

Small detonations are hard to land at mid to mid-close range, but are quite effective at mid-close to close range for setting up into a grab, ftilt, fsmash, dsmash, etc etc etc...

Medium fireballs are a balance of speed and power. You can get them out after pretty much any strong hit, making the recall hit easier to land and the detonation hit more rewarding (leads into more than just grounded normals, you can get kicks etc). I like placing them behind the opponent with a downward curve (upward if they are high enough in the air) and varying the recall timing based on how my opponent reacts. If they are falling toward me I'll instant recall, if it doesn't look like I'll hit then I'll teleport somewhere and recall again, then start moving around to cover the landing with both Zelda's body and her fireball. Otherwise I'll wait and just cover the landing normally, trying to utilize a timer trap if I can, otherwise taking advantage of the recall after the trap times out. I much prefer hitting with the detonation hitbox over the recall hitbox, so timing side-B so that you get a detonation then a recall hit makes Din's fire much more rewarding. This applies to all Din's sizes!

Large fireballs are where the new Din's fire really shine. They take time to set up but the recall hit is huge, the detonation combos into almost anything, and they can be reused due to the slower mobility. Every time you detonate the fireball, the recall hit reactivates. See the notes on Medium fireballs

---

Does anyone else find it harder to sweetspot with Farore's Wind? Or teleport from the stage to the ledge? Has anyone mastered edge-canceling the teleport? I need to spend more time in the lab

 

[The Real B]

Hello! I've always lurked smashboards but never really made an account. I'm B, a former competitive brawl player that moved to PM near the beginning of this year. I've switched mains in PM like 5 times but this time i'm sure of sticking with Zelda as I love her playstyle and quirks. I look forward to getting to know you all and I hope to see us Zeldas do well in the future~

Oh, and I'm seeing some stuff about a group skype chat. Is there still room for me to join?

 

[Prynne]

I am just going to break this down piece by piece so that I do not miss anything. I see what you are getting at, but there are some questions that I have and some points I'd like to discuss.

To illustrate why Zelda is stupid in 3.02:

Zelda vs Fox - If Fox makes a mistake he loses. If Fox plays patiently, Zelda can't do anything about it. In neutral, Din's and Farore's startup is too long to not get run>upsmash'd. Her normals are non-threatening to a dash-dancing Fox due to her own slow mobility. She can /try/ to approach with aerial Nayru's and SH>kick>kick/waveland but Fox will likely cover her landing with a nair, usmash, or crossup. Zelda has to play the option coverage game 100% perfectly from her first hit in neutral (if Fox messes up). Fox wins neutral against Zelda 100% of the time. In 3.5 Zelda can actually cover space in midrange/neutral without ridiculous startup, thus Fox does not win neutral against Zelda 100% of the time anymore. It's actually a playable matchup now.

I understand this pretty well. In giving her a faster projectile, she has a more logical answer to Fox's approach, even close up. The only inherent problem I can see with it is that Fox is simply faster by virtue and should have no trouble whatsoever avoiding the Din's, which, once placed, forces Zelda to go through the casting animation. Not only this, but the maximum distance the wisp must travel is still a substantial way off. Fox can still be on top of you in an instant.

Zelda vs Wario

- Wario can just dair Din's for free, and his aerial mobility prevents Zelda from hitting with much else. Her grounded moves are too slow for his weaving, her aerial mobility is significantly slower than Wario's so she'll usually lose aerial trades. How will Zelda hit Wario to win? In 3.5, new Din's fire allows Zelda to cover Wario's airspace, with conversions into big damage off of the manual detonation. Playable matchup.

What is to stop Wario from dair-ing Din's for free, in this build? Does Din's have new properties that I am unaware of or have been negligent to observe? Wario dairing a Din's at mid range would be fairly pointless, yes. The question arises, if you and Wario are both at Mid range, then why would you be casting a Din's in the first place? The casting Animation is still lengthy, and the moment he sees it, can go in to close range for a grab or some other nonsense. It will be baited, and it will be punished. Additionally, you would have to be absurdly close to mid range Din's to get hit by the manual detonation, and even then, triggering it is impractical in this situation to begin with due to the range. You would be better off using the Din's to interrupt their flow, read a mistake and then try and get something off it.

Zelda vs Mewtwo

- Well, Mewtwo was kinda broken in 3.02 as well, but in an actually "broken" kind of way. Oracle made a good point about 2.5, and how the overall homogenization of the 3.0 and beyond necessitates changes to Zelda. I agree with him as someone who has been playing and supporting Zelda since 2.1 and as someone who spends a significant portion of his time analyzing this game. But I digress; Zelda really couldn't do anything about Mewtwo's tail. Mewtwo got nerfed appropriately in 3.5 and now this is a playable matchup. It likely would have been with 3.0 Zelda, but as stated earlier, everything in the game is being normalized so that we don't have these crazy polarizing outlying matchups like the two I listed above.

Completely understandable.

I implore all Zelda players to give this new incarnation a fair shot, because (and, I was guilty of this two weeks ago) everybody is crying without actually experimenting with the changes.

We are better off discussing new tactics involving the new fireball than we are pining for the changes to be reverted. They will not be reverted and overall this Zelda IS healthier for Project M as a whole, especially with the rest of the cast being toned down slightly as well. No longer are Project M matchups explained in terms of how janky their character is, or what mechanics could be abused. This was definitely the case pre-3.5. The game now favors smart play with good balances of risk and reward. The game now favors midrange interaction between characters without detracting from fast, momentum-based gameplay, nor a complex and nuanced neutral game. The game is now less "press the PM button to win" or "Project Make it Back."

I do agree, the direction of this Zelda is certainly healthier for PM, and no one has had adequate time to test their character's full potential. To create a more balanced and less heterogenized cast, one would need to inherently remove elements that stuck out too greatly in the grand scheme, such as Din's in this case, or so would seem to be the focus. We should certainyl try to work with her and see what can be done with her current options. The only thing that confuses me is that if one truly wanted to make a "fast, momentum-based game" why would it be a wise decision to gut the defensive and counter approach options and not provide adequate offensive and approaching options as recompense? Zelda still functions in the same manner but does it much poorer.

Actual tactical discussion:

I think of the new Din's Fire in terms of the size of the fireball and its 3 phases.
Small/Medium/Large fireball;
Waiting/Recall/Detonation phase.

Small fireballs are quick to deploy and quick to return. They do a little bit (6%? iirc?) of fire damage. Their speed makes them quite usable in Neutral.
A small waiting fireball can be deployed quickly on the ground to pop opponents toward Zelda, poke under shields, and generally just slow your opponent down. I find it most effective to harass opponents quickly with grounded fireballs at low percents, then curve the fireball slightly upward (not touching the ground) so that you can take advantage of the recall hit at mid (40+) percents.

Small detonations are hard to land at mid to mid-close range, but are quite effective at mid-close to close range for setting up into a grab, ftilt, fsmash, dsmash, etc etc etc...

The wisp itself when on the return or after being placed has proven useful for "harassing" and breaking flow in the opponent, potentially messing with their momentum. The question I have is - Are the small detonations at mid to close range worth the time and effort that went in to first placing them there, repositioning yourself, and then somehow detonating it assuming it did not get hit already?

Medium fireballs are a balance of speed and power. You can get them out after pretty much any strong hit, making the recall hit easier to land and the detonation hit more rewarding (leads into more than just grounded normals, you can get kicks etc). I like placing them behind the opponent with a downward curve (upward if they are high enough in the air) and varying the recall timing based on how my opponent reacts. If they are falling toward me I'll instant recall, if it doesn't look like I'll hit then I'll teleport somewhere and recall again, then start moving around to cover the landing with both Zelda's body and her fireball. Otherwise I'll wait and just cover the landing normally, trying to utilize a timer trap if I can, otherwise taking advantage of the recall after the trap times out. I much prefer hitting with the detonation hitbox over the recall hitbox, so timing side-B so that you get a detonation then a recall hit makes Din's fire much more rewarding. This applies to all Din's sizes!

I see what you're getting at, and please do not take this in the wrong way, but I feel that this is an incredibly roundabout and very contrary to logic way for any move to work. The curve through the stage is highly inconvenient, as it simply is not a present threat until it nears you at your feet. There may be significant amount of potential in it yet, but slow is slow, and being vulnerable for the amount of time that Zelda is while using a channelled move of this type is very impractical.

Large fireballs are where the new Din's fire really shine. They take time to set up but the recall hit is huge, the detonation combos into almost anything, and they can be reused due to the slower mobility. Every time you detonate the fireball, the recall hit reactivates. See the notes on Medium fireballs

The only opportunity that one will have to set up a sufficiently sized fireball is in between stocks, maybe, or in an edge guard situation. Considering how they combo into anything, I understand the difficulty in getting them out. As for reusing them, that may be impractical as per the casting animation, but I'm really grasping for straws here. This point I understand. All in all my view of Din's may still be colored with the use of 3.02 Din's as a long-range pressure tool, as that is how I have attempted to use it in several situations. At close to mid range, it just seems terribly flimsy, and although I believe that 3.02 Din's were also flimsy, there is only the maximum potential for one of them now, as opposed to three, not to say I think there should be more, of course. To augment its uses at close range, you would think that she would be able to cast it somewhat closer to her. That's one third the total potential of Din's, now placed at medium range minimum, which, although can be manually detonated, leaves you not much better off than it did before.

Does anyone else find it harder to sweetspot with Farore's Wind? Or teleport from the stage to the ledge? Has anyone mastered edge-canceling the teleport? I need to spend more time in the lab

It doesn't seem any more difficult to sweetspot. The ability to cancel it from the air is nice, although the startup is ungodly, but that is perfectly rational. Edge canceling was never even something I touched upon with any character, so it will be interesting to finally have the opportunity to learn it.

 

[Arcalyth]

The only inherent problem I can see with it is that Fox is simply faster by virtue and should have no trouble whatsoever avoiding the Din's, which, once placed, forces Zelda to go through the casting animation. Not only this, but the maximum distance the wisp must travel is still a substantial way off. Fox can still be on top of you in an instant

A few situations can be imagined that Zelda couldn't deal with in 3.02 that she can now.
1. Imagine PS2. Fox is under the left side platform, you're under the right side platform Fox is dash dancing to control both his side of the stage and center stage. Zelda cannot approach center without getting naired, and can't put a Dins in center without getting upsmashed. When Fox is under the platform you /might/ be able to get a Din's out, but Fox then still controls center stage and you're still boned. Now Din's is fast enough that you can get that center stage control and have time to move in. If Fox tries to nair, you have plenty of anti-air options, and his ground option is covered by the fireball.

2. You don't have to place the fireball at max distance. Even a weak hit at midrange is enough to convert into a positional advantage, and both a fireball placed right on top of the opponent as well as the recall hitbox is enough to do this. You have enough time to move after casting a fireball, so Fox can't exactly get on top of me in an instant... if he does, he eats a dsmash, nayru, usmash, ftilt, or grab.

What is to stop Wario from dair-ing Din's for free, in this build?

It's much harder for Wario to hit the fireball without getting hit himself, and he doesn't want to get hit for the reasons stated in the Fox example above. I dare any Wario to try to dair a moving fireball. I'll explode it on them and then follow up with lightning kick.

The question arises, if you and Wario are both at Mid range, then why would you be casting a Din's in the first place

A. Because it's fast and will harass him.
B. You can move and then cast and you still get the positional advantage. If he clanks it then you can capitalize on the recall, or just teleport and rinse/repeat.
C. The cast is fast enough to be used in neutral at midrange.

Like you said yourself, "You would be better off using the Din's to interrupt their flow, read a mistake and then try and get something off it."

The only thing that confuses me is that if one truly wanted to make a "fast, momentum-based game" why would it be a wise decision to gut the defensive and counter approach options and not provide adequate offensive and approaching options as recompense? Zelda still functions in the same manner but does it much poorer.

Gut the defensive options because it's frustrating to play against a character who can press one button to undo all of the advantage/momentum you've built up (leads to aerial nayru's nerf as well as sweetspot kick nerf. This is fine.). You shouldn't be rewarded for getting hit. Luigi exhibits this property but to a smaller degree (and Zelda still does as well, you can still kick out of hitstun), but it's not guaranteed that you (or luigi) will get the hit, and the opponent can still effectively counterplay without going on to get camped out by the fireballs for not keeping up their momentum...

Zelda has plenty of offensive options. She's great at comboing and even got some combo buffs in 3.5. She converts with additional damage off of strong hits (like fsmash) where most characters can't because of Din's Fire and teleport. New Din's Fire also allows Zelda to open up her offensive options by both forcing and controlling the opponent's approach (ala pre-3.5).

The question I have is - Are the small detonations at mid to close range worth the time and effort that went in to first placing them there, repositioning yourself, and then somehow detonating it assuming it did not get hit already?

Yes, because you still have 3 seconds to reposition yourself in relation to the opponent and the fireball and you do have control over the return path via your own movement and the placement of the Din's. AND, you can get two hits off of a detonation into recall, and you can combo off of both hits. My favorite so far is large detonation>kick>recall>kick.

The curve through the stage is highly inconvenient, as it simply is not a present threat until it nears you at your feet. There may be significant amount of potential in it yet, but slow is slow, and being vulnerable for the amount of time that Zelda is while using a channelled move of this type is very impractical.

You can control whether the fireball curves upward or downward based on how you place it. If you angle up as you let go of the fireball, it will return upward, and vice-versa. Zelda can also move around while the fireball is linked which makes your second point a bit moot.

The only opportunity that one will have to set up a sufficiently sized fireball is in between stocks, maybe, or in an edge guard situation.

This is downright false. You can get medium fireballs out in about one second, plenty enough time out of any strong hit. You can get large fireballs out after strong hits at mid percent.

At close to mid range, it just seems terribly flimsy, and although I believe that 3.02 Din's were also flimsy, there is only the maximum potential for one of them now, as opposed to three, not to say I think there should be more, of course. To augment its uses at close range, you would think that she would be able to cast it somewhat closer to her. That's one third the total potential of Din's, now placed at medium range minimum, which, although can be manually detonated, leaves you not much better off than it did before.

The exchange is 3 stationary fireballs for one that moves, which results in a much more dynamic projectile. I think there is significantly more potential in this version of Din's Fire. I honestly feel like 3.02 Din's Fire was "solved" based on absolute positioning relative to the stage. I can draw graphs of exact fireball placements for specific situations in 3.02.

I (and a few others it seems) agree that the fireball feels a little bit flimsy. It might get changed in a future version but who knows. Not to say that 3.5 Din's Fire isn't rewarding because it is. It's just difficult and takes getting used to and objectively isn't as good as before, but it is more dynamic and as per the design goals of Project M and as for the overall health of the game, this Din's Fire is significantly better.

P.S. Teleport startup is still 30 frames.

 

[Prynne]

Alright, that answers a vast majority of my questions. Thank you very much for the speedy response!

Oh, and I'm seeing some stuff about a group skype chat. Is there still room for me to join?

Indeed there is! Private message @ WhiteLightnin your skype info and he can add you!

 

[4tlas]

I'm sadly rather sick of debating this topic, and I almost never get sick of debating. I feel like everyone is arguing past each other, and it really isn't worth my effort of carefully reading through all posts, analyzing them to look for holes in both mine and their arguments, and finally crafting a response, only to have all responders say something along the lines of "you're just looking at it wrong, so I'm not going to address any of your points and just put out my own to convince you despite my points not negating anything you said" or something along the lines of "you're stupid and I'm not debating this." It really is frustrating, and I apologize for ranting.

Normally, here is where I would put a carefully written response, but I really am just sick of this, so I will keep it short and blunt.

1) New dins is easily countered by shield. Shield is only countered by grab, and Zelda is far too slow to grab someone who shields a Din. Other characters with projectiles get multiple for spam, have the speed to reach the opponent at the same time as the projectile, don't have to channel (which really makes dins a disjoint, not a projectile), or get to increase the projectile's power but save it for later. Zelda's Dins has none of these. (Edit: She sorta has the last one, as she can place a Dins to use later. But she can't charge up like DK or Samus)
2) New dins covers space toward Zelda, which is always defensive due to the inability to place it far.
3) New dins moves, which I find causes FAR more frustration for opponents than old Dins ever did. It forces them to calculate its path which is constantly changing, account for different speeds and hitbox sizes simultaneously, and due to manual recall has to be constantly given attention. Old dins stayed the same once it was out, which was actually easy for most people to adapt to.
4) New dins does very very little when it hits. If it is going to have all these other problems (which I think are design problems), it at least has to do something. Regardless of the design, it at least has to be a usable move when you CAN find the situation it works in, and right now it is very lackluster.

I'm really hoping somebody actually responds to these points. So far every response ignores me. Maybe I just say too much for people to bother responding to it, so here's a short post. Pleeeeeease? =(

 

[Prynne]

Ok, let's get cracking!

1) New dins is easily countered by shield. Shield is only countered by grab, and Zelda is far too slow to grab someone who shields a Din. Other characters with projectiles get multiple for spam, have the speed to reach the opponent at the same time as the projectile, don't have to channel (which really makes dins a disjoint, not a projectile), or get to increase the projectile's power but save it for later. Zelda's Dins has none of these. (Edit: She sorta has the last one, as she can place a Dins to use later. But she can't charge up like DK or Samus)

I never actually thought of this. I forgot that Din's now clanks on Shield. Though the explosion itself now does more Shield damage, allegedly.

2) New dins covers space toward Zelda, which is always defensive due to the inability to place it far.

Yeah, I can see this. The way I look at it is that old Din's covered you before the approaching phase and this Din's is going to cover you during it. Granted your previous point, which is fairly solid makes a good argument against it being valuable enough. I believe this Din's is fairly good for followups on a powerful enough attack, or as a half-decent combo extender. Additionally, in teams, whipping one of these across the stage while your teammate it getting comboed or grabbed can be invaluable for them and you.

3) New dins moves, which I find causes FAR more frustration for opponents than old Dins ever did. It forces them to calculate its path which is constantly changing, account for different speeds and hitbox sizes simultaneously, and due to manual recall has to be constantly given attention. Old dins stayed the same once it was out, which was actually easy for most people to adapt to.

Whereas old Din's could immobilize your opponent if you were very good with it, this one just kind of irritates, like a buzzing fly. I'd actually have to say that the old one was more irritating, at least for the opponent, but this one is now solidly irritating for both players. I'm sure there are a few more valuable uses for it, but the distance it has to travel before you can set it mitigates a lot of on-the-spot combo potential that I formerly saw in this iteration. For it to be a close-mid range tool, it actual has to be castable at close range.

4) New dins does very very little when it hits. If it is going to have all these other problems (which I think are design problems), it at least has to do something. Regardless of the design, it at least has to be a usable move when you CAN find the situation it works in, and right now it is very lackluster.

When it hits with just the normal wisp hitbox, yeah, it's basically trash, though I have been able to use it rather well for edgeguarding. The intention is to hit with the explosion and combo off that, as I have been informed above, but getting the detonation of any size wisp at mid/close range is challenging enough. You're better off using it to interrupt flow at this stage. I still need to do some testing with it as far as a combo tool goes, but as of right now, I have been unable to use it for much other than space control. More testing needs to go in before we can really say it's absolutely the worst.

All in all, I understand where you are coming from on all of these points. It is a little difficult to get used to, and it definitely does not have the raw utility of the previous Din's, simply by virtue of design. With some experimentation, however, there may be some techniques we can together create to make this Din's passable in the new metagame.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Among all my complaints with the new Din's, the one that stands out is the small size of the manual explosions. It bothers me more than the other changes, because it doesn't have practical use in battle. Because the explosion is only marginally larger than the standing hitbox, it's almost impossible to hit with. You are trying to hit a moving object with another moving object, but you can't ACTUALLY hit them. You have to get very very very close, then detonate it when they are a couple pixels away. You also have to hope they don't shield it. If they actually let it get that close to them, then they're likely to either shield (making the detonation pretty ineffective) or be combo'ing you (which means you can't detonate it).

 

[4tlas]

Ok, let's get cracking!



I never actually thought of this. I forgot that Din's now clanks on Shield. Though the explosion itself now does more Shield damage, allegedly.

I have yet to notice the increased shield damage either.

Yeah, I can see this. The way I look at it is that old Din's covered you before the approaching phase and this Din's is going to cover you during it. Granted your previous point, which is fairly solid makes a good argument against it being valuable enough. I believe this Din's is fairly good for followups on a powerful enough attack, or as a half-decent combo extender. Additionally, in teams, whipping one of these across the stage while your teammate it getting comboed or grabbed can be invaluable for them and you.

I'm not sure what you mean by approaching phase. Do you mean old dins was set up from safety and forced the opponent to space it but new dins is set up the same but forces you both to space it since it will be near you during recall? And I agree with all of your points here about its use, but old Dins had those too, so I look at those as a net 0.

Whereas old Din's could immobilize your opponent if you were very good with it, this one just kind of irritates, like a buzzing fly. I'd actually have to say that the old one was more irritating, at least for the opponent, but this one is now solidly irritating for both players. I'm sure there are a few more valuable uses for it, but the distance it has to travel before you can set it mitigates a lot of on-the-spot combo potential that I formerly saw in this iteration. For it to be a close-mid range tool, it actual has to be castable at close range.

I used to do cool plays by placing it as I drifted backward so it would appear in the location I was just standing. This usually caused opponents to run into it at close range. This felt like a great mindgame to defeat opponents with, as I essentially left a lingering hitbox in my old location but gave up positioning to do so (can't retreat forever).

When it hits with just the normal wisp hitbox, yeah, it's basically trash, though I have been able to use it rather well for edgeguarding. The intention is to hit with the explosion and combo off that, as I have been informed above, but getting the detonation of any size wisp at mid/close range is challenging enough. You're better off using it to interrupt flow at this stage. I still need to do some testing with it as far as a combo tool goes, but as of right now, I have been unable to use it for much other than space control. More testing needs to go in before we can really say it's absolutely the worst.

I often find that the tiny version gives so little hitstun that it SAVES my opponents from combos due to giving less hitstun than whatever move I had just hit with. Obviously I can get used to that, but for now it sure is frustrating. And my opponents don't like it interrupting their flow either. Most of them preferred thinking about the Dins positioning beforehand (when it was static) and then playing.

All in all, I understand where you are coming from on all of these points. It is a little difficult to get used to, and it definitely does not have the raw utility of the previous Din's, simply by virtue of design. With some experimentation, however, there may be some techniques we can together create to make this Din's passable in the new metagame.

It does have some uses, and it does have some of the same uses 1 old din had (except pressuring shield...). Buffing its weaknesses may return it to being versatile, which I liked as a player but may not be good for the game. I haven't thought about that yet. Buffing its already worthwhile uses isn't as appealing to me because it keeps the move predictable. Zelda already has few options that can outplay opponents (well spaced lightning kicks, nayru's invuln, telecancel...which all got nerfed), and Dins' options mostly just enable those other things. If Dins has few options, it will really have none.

Thank you so much for responding to me! I love debating but you can't debate when you're not talking about the same thing, you know?



For game design purposes, highest reward should coincide with highest risk. So the best conversion you can get off a projectile should require you to be in range of the opponent. Most do, as most (all?) characters with disjoints do not have projectiles, and vice versa. Zelda falls into this pattern with both Dins (old one more than new one, actually). Escorting the Din gives some risk to your play since you could be hit (through Dins if need be), but gives you the highest reward (actually converting off of the Din). This play should be encouraged, and the type of play with 0 risk (camping) should be discouraged. Discouraging camping may be enough to encourage escorting the Din, since I don't have a quantitative assessment of the risk/reward ratios for all tactical options with Dins lol

I have suggested before to use old Dins but make Zelda take damage when they are clanked (I think this is possible with their coding limitations, but maybe it isn't). This discourages camping, because it adds an element of risk. The least risk increase from this change would be to the tactic of escorting the Dins, which I just concluded is the highest risk and most interactive tactic involving the move.

In addition, I think she should not be able to cast a new one if 3 are already out. This definitely slows the game down and frustrates people due to Dins constantly being repositioned. I like being able to reposition them as a player, but I think forcing more commitment on the initial placings is a good thing.

I don't think anyone's ever responded to these suggestions. Anyone have an opinion?

 

[LonVoen]

I used to do cool plays by placing it as I drifted backward so it would appear in the location I was just standing. This usually caused opponents to run into it at close range. This felt like a great mindgame to defeat opponents with, as I essentially left a lingering hitbox in my old location but gave up positioning to do so (can't retreat forever).

While not as positionally tight, I sometimes do a drift-back din and do the immediate recall that you can tack onto the placement. If they made it between you and the dins they now have to attack your shield and perhaps eat your oncoming dins + punish, or shield and eat an offensive mixup, or retreat, which is always nice. This can be used while drifting off the edge as well, which if you angle dins up right before placement gives you invuln frames + oncoming dins in exchange for a potentially very risky situation. Haven't been punished too badly for it since people don't expect it usually.

I often find that the tiny version gives so little hitstun that it SAVES my opponents from combos due to giving less hitstun than whatever move I had just hit with. Obviously I can get used to that, but for now it sure is frustrating. And my opponents don't like it interrupting their flow either. Most of them preferred thinking about the Dins positioning beforehand (when it was static) and then playing.

I think it's mostly about forcing your opponent into situations where you can capitalize on even minimal hitstun. And for the instances you can't capitalize, if you recognize that prior then you can use it as breathing room and time to re-position.
Din interrupting their flow is how I look at Zelda in general. She has awesome defensive tools and her din's on-the-fly momentum interruption complements that very well. She seems like she's all about saying no to approaches then asserting her own tempo in short bursts.

It does have some uses, and it does have some of the same uses 1 old din had (except pressuring shield...).

One good fair/bair/dair sweetspot on shield and then din shield pokes more often than not thanks to its start-up arc!

Buffs / nerfs

I think it's waaaay too early to say. This Zelda seems like she could be very potent. I think she just requires a ton of finesse. Her din is such an oddball it's going to take awhile to learn mixups and approaches and what works and what doesn't given the different spacings and states of din (especially since there are already soooo many char matchups). Zelda is going to take awhile to flesh out and I don't know about you, but I'm super excited to be a part of that process!

For game design purposes, highest reward should coincide with highest risk. So the best conversion you can get off a projectile should require you to be in range of the opponent. Most do, as most (all?) characters with disjoints do not have projectiles, and vice versa. Zelda falls into this pattern with both Dins (old one more than new one, actually). Escorting the Din gives some risk to your play since you could be hit (through Dins if need be), but gives you the highest reward (actually converting off of the Din). This play should be encouraged, and the type of play with 0 risk (camping) should be discouraged. Discouraging camping may be enough to encourage escorting the Din, since I don't have a quantitative assessment of the risk/reward ratios for all tactical options with Dins lol

Agreed on the risk/reward part for sure! However, Zelda has a bunch of potent disjoints in utilt, fsmash, ftilt, nayru, uair, and kiiiinda usmash. Looks like we agree about the utterly ridiculous potential of different tactical situations thanks to dins, haha. That thing makes this character really complex, I feel. You're right though, it does need to carry it's weight in terms of practical usefulness (in terms of hitstun/controlled area) in order for it to be worth sacrificing time/positioning or commiting to a risk in the first place!

I have suggested before to use old Dins but make Zelda take damage when they are clanked (I think this is possible with their coding limitations, but maybe it isn't). This discourages camping, because it adds an element of risk. The least risk increase from this change would be to the tactic of escorting the Dins, which I just concluded is the highest risk and most interactive tactic involving the move.

I like the creativity here, quite a lot. It does seem a little unintuitive though and could lead to some weird and undesirable gameplay patterns in certain matchups. For example, should it clink with enemy projectiles? That could force her to play an aggressive game against people who would just run away and clink dins when it's up. Given her shoddy mobility she'd probably have to completely omit dins, which seems undesirable. It would also cause it to lose it's tech chase properties as get-up attacks could clink with it.

Thanks for being so friendly btw 4tlas. Totally encourages healthy discussion :D



In case it wasn't clear, I'ma huge proponent of new-dins.

Oh also, anyone?:

On a scale of no to yes: is telecancel OoS stupid or am I stupid

 

[4tlas]

snip

Sorry I don't have time to respond to all of this right now, but I just wanted to say a few quick things regarding your points.

I do still sometimes use the retreating Din tact, but my opponents seem to have an easier time shield-clanking it or just getting hit by it, and it is just far enough away I can't capitalize. Might be me being bad, might be me placing it when I don't quite have enough time due to the changes. But you're right, I do have to adapt for sure. And I know *I* can't capitalize on the minimal hitstun most of the time, but you're right again that that doesn't mean other people can't. I also totally agree its too early to be sure of what needs buffs or nerfs, but we might as well talk about it anyway! =)

As to the idea of din clanks damaging Zelda, I had imagined that she would take more damage for moves that hit harder. This encourages opponents to use the most damaging move possible (which is probably also the slowest) and therefore encourages Zelda to defend the din more readily.

The problem of it being unintuitive is something we may have to deal with no matter what we do to it. Even boomerang-dins is unintuitive, especially when it goes through the floor or loses its hitbox after hitting someone.

You mentioned that projectiles would force her to approach and getup attacks would prevent it from techchasing. She already had/has to approach projectile users, but she can use dins to block an enemy projectile at the cost of some hp. I think this is preferable to having 1 din mine on super long cooldown like we have now, since she can place multiple in different locations to bait clanks and/or zone. Also getup attacks don't prevent techchasing, but they do counter the dins-on-wakeup. On the other hand, shield grabs and telecancel grabs do counter getup attacks. So really its more like a rock paper scissors, right?

I don't have an opinion on OoS telecancel. I am actually just bad at doing things OoS. I have used it to escape juggles by hitting with the startup though.

"Quick". Yeah, right. I am clearly incapable of making quick posts.

And thank you for the direct response =)

 

[Deleted member]

Among all my complaints with the new Din's, the one that stands out is the small size of the manual explosions. It bothers me more than the other changes, because it doesn't have practical use in battle. Because the explosion is only marginally larger than the standing hitbox, it's almost impossible to hit with. You are trying to hit a moving object with another moving object, but you can't ACTUALLY hit them. You have to get very very very close, then detonate it when they are a couple pixels away. You also have to hope they don't shield it. If they actually let it get that close to them, then they're likely to either shield (making the detonation pretty ineffective) or be combo'ing you (which means you can't detonate it).

my stance on the new dins is that it has a lot of complexities to it. however to make it a useful tool the best approach is to simplify it to 1-3 easy things and then play to them for reliability. as such, i never use the other explosions. i pretty just throw out dins when for whatever reason i don't have to worry about the opportunity cost of establishing stage position, usually because i already have it (in between KOs, edge guarding, or dins to the edge to cover my recovery to it pretty much). din's fire, both the old and new ones, as well as several other dynamics from other characters are like this where you can vastly expand upon character-specific tech but you're often wrong in doing so because it encourages you to play bad. so for example, occam's razor once again works for something like link's bombs. yes you can do lots of things with them, but if you're playing link correctly you're pretty much limited to just throwing them or bomb jump recovery, so only two utilities really. i believe din's is like this. i throw it out and pull it back a lot when i have nothing better to do because it turns my extra time into freebies or combos/conversions that i wouldn't otherwise have. i don't make it a point to use din's when i could be doing something better, and i don't try to overly-complicate using it. for this reason, you are also probably pretty happy when your opponent blocks dins, since that means you're still free to say grab them.

 

[Kaeldiar]

my stance on the new dins is that it has a lot of complexities to it. however to make it a useful tool the best approach is to simplify it to 1-3 easy things and then play to them for reliability. as such, i never use the other explosions. i pretty just throw out dins when for whatever reason i don't have to worry about the opportunity cost of establishing stage position, usually because i already have it (in between KOs, edge guarding, or dins to the edge to cover my recovery to it pretty much).

Yeah, I tend it to use it the same way. It just bothers me that there's a specific mechanic of it that I'm not using :/

 

[Deleted member]

understanding a character's tools well enough to differentiate them is a clear sign of a better and more experienced player imo

 

[BJN39]

Wow such many looooooooooooooooooooongg posts. ANYWAYS,

tbh, I was bitter because I hated Umbreon for winning.

Over it now tho. It was as easy as stop hanging around most of the PM boards.

GO, UMBREON, BEAT THOSE STUPID LEVEL 9 TOURNAMENTS WITH THE GOOD SIS ZELDA!

 

[4tlas]

understanding a character's tools well enough to differentiate them is a clear sign of a better and more experienced player imo

I agree. But leaving strictly suboptimal options in as traps is poor game design. Fortunately these are not strictly suboptimal because the differences are in different categories.