Zelda matchups discussion - Wisdom mainers discuss the SWF matchup chart

[Deleted member]

burnstock in my last post i responded to u. also the seeker missles are slow and easy to get by. plus zelda has more then just the dash attack to approach but it is true her approach is not great but since samus at long range has nothing that zelda can't deal with and at mid range only has the zair the zelda should be able to get in close by shielding samus's attacks or reflecting them. then at close range zelda wins big.

also i forget (been a while since my last samus fight) can you use dins to blow up samus's missles?

It isnt easy to get past seeker missle spam, if there are 2 at you at the same time, it isnt exactly easy to get by without getting zaired. At long range samus will just charge and shield the dins until the charged shot is fully charged, then spam some SM will getting into proper postion for midrange zoning. If you are just running and shielding, samus can HM, then follow it with a grab, dash attack, another HM, or a shield dash herself, and she can up b OOS, jab, or dsmash, and imo, samus has much better out of shield options than Zelda. Reflecting leaves u open to zairs.

Why do people are giving so much credit to Samus' aerial Grapple Beam? Sure is a nice attack with good spacing but... it only does 4% damage. Yeah, sure it can rack up and all, but you would have to be playing one dumb Zelda if that Zelda isn't able to dodge or block an easy-to-predict attack...

And yes, Din blows missiles as if they were toys...

Uhh probably because it does 7% when sweetspotted, because it has the longest range of any none projectile, it has 0 lag, and it isnt so easy to block or dodge when there are missles attacking you at the same time. *Obviously lacks samus experience*

@ Anyone

If Samus is zoning with missiles, can Zelda Farore's punish Samus from long range (teleporting into her)?

If so, that's one option to completely bypass Samus' midrange advantage.

I dunno, ive never seen that done but id think its punishable. If u mean as an attack, samus can just shield after landing, then dsmash oos or soemthing.

 

[gantrain05]

actually i think if zelda is grounded and hit with Zair it gives samus a free grab if she's close enuf, i've seen many videos of this, Zair apparently has a decent hitstuf.

 

[Mega-Japan]

Uhh probably because it does 7% when sweetspotted, because it has the longest range of any none projectile, it has 0 lag, and it isnt so easy to block or dodge when there are missles attacking you at the same time. *Obviously lacks samus experience*

Um, no, I've played a lot of Samus mainers at both tourneys and online, in fact, I've played more Samus than Zamus. They do try to Z-Air a lot, but I still find it easy to dodge.

It isn't easy to block or dodge when there are missiles coming? You can easily block both O_o' And unless she gets down on the stage, it does have returning lag which can be punished...

 

[Deleted member]

Samus doesnt zair without touching the ground unless you are above the ground. You are right, if you are on the ground, u can shield both, but samus can keep doing it and wear down your shield, or go for a grab. Well im done here, im sleepy, and i dont think i will be able to convince you of my side, your opinions seem pretty set, and mine are too(if i heard something that sounded like it would make the matchup in zeldas advantage i would change my mind, but so far ive heard things i already know).

 

[SinkingHigher]

Ah, alas... Flamefest 2008.

Perhaps it's high-time to switch the characters in the main thread?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Playing Chaos's Samus taught me one thing about samus... She's VERY good at ranging you. Essentially, if you aren't max distance (or protected by some terrain), you CAN'T din's fire because samus can shoot her projectiles at you and they'll connect before you can drop Din's AND it'll either go pat her, or she'll have enough time to shield it.

Samus' zair keeps you from getting to close to her... it's really an amazing move.

Samus can pepper you with missiles while approachig and they are almost impossible to effectively reflect... and they can interupt you so that she can get in to Zelda's fortress for a possible dair kill.

Now, this is an irritating matchup because Samus has SUCH low KO potential... but, also, such low potential to be KOd... the match lasts a while... no matter what. and neither of you will likely gimp the other. This matchup can go either way if one character has a good counterpick stage against the other... but, using smashville as a basis (being the most balanced stage) Zelda will pretty much only be able to pull din's out after setting up for it or when she's got Samus off of the edge. Samus will be hard to lightning kick through her fair and zair. IDK... it's just not a big advatage for Zelda... there's simply too much samus has got going for her for it to be the case.

Now, I'll admit... chaos is better than me... a LOT better than me... but I can see the potential Zelda has in this matchup... and it's not gonna give her a huge advantage. Samus is simply better at mid range and is better at keeping zelda in mid range than zelda is at keeping samus OUT of mid range.

 

[Crystanium]

I main Samus.

D-tilt is one of Samus's hardest moves to connect. It takes quite a long time. And since you both have to be on the ground, and Zelda's D-smash, F-smash or NL take much less time to initiate, I would have to say Zelda gets the upper hand here.

D-tilt: Zelda > Samus.

Samus' d-tilt isn't that slow, which you seem to imply. Either way, Samus needn't be close to hit her opponent with this. As you can see, she extends her Arm Cannon diagonally. This gives her a bit of space. By the way, Samus' d-tilt is superior to Zelda's, because it can kill, unlike Zelda's d-tilt.

D-tilt: Samus > Zelda.

 

[Crystanium]

Haha, "look."

Other than Zair Samus has nothing on Zelda. Contrary to the Sonic matchup, it seems like being offensive gives you the edge. It's better to be up in Samus's face than let her get maximum spacing for Zair. Recovering from above the stage with Farore's is helpful, staying grounded is key. Samus's projectiles are just no match for Din's Fire and Nayru's Love.

"Samus has nothing on Zelda." That's a bold claim. Really, this is all theoretical. I could say, "Samus can fire her Charge Shot." Someone can say, "Zelda can reflect that with Nayru's Love." A wise Samus main will know when to use the Charge Shot. The Homing Missiles act as a deterant to any character, whether or not he or she has a reflective ability. As long as that reflecting attack is used, it leaves you open for a z-air, even if it is ever so slight. If anyone were to reflect Samus' Homing Missiles, that'd be fine, since Samus can destroy her own Homing Missiles with jabs, kicks, and z-air. It wouldn't return to her the same way if she were to use a Super Missile.

As for Din's Fire, the last time I checked, it would be good to space yourself to use that attack, since it's pointless to use it close up. Some Zelda players I've bumped into like to use Nayru's Love when anyone gets close.

 

[S2]

@ Dryn

While I agree that Samus does have definite advantages, I'd hardly call her d-tilt one.

It's very slow in comparison to a lot of Zelda moveset and if your in range to d-tilt Zelda, she's in range to hit you with a whole bunch of quicker moves. Zelda isn't going to let you get that close without hitting you with a smash attack (down or side), a d-tilt, or a neutral A.

And Samus D-tilt > Zelda's d-tilt is debatable.

Sure Samus' kills... but Zelda's is faster. Plus Zelda can combo off of a d-tilt. Including her F-smash, a primary KO move. So Zelda's is faster and she can just combo a KO move off of it, kinda moots that point.

 

[Iris]

Homing missles are slow enough to pull off a Din's and cancel them while hitting Samus. There's no point in reflecting them, I agree, but Zelda can easily counter them with Din's Fire or teleporting with Farore's Wind to simply evade them. Zair is undeniably good on Zelda's aerial sluggishness, but a grounded Zelda has more options than people are giving her credit for.

As for the D-tilt argument... Zelda's is better for sure. They're both good, but Zelda's is more reliable.

And Raphael... Wow, whoosh.

 

[Crystanium]

@ Dryn

While I agree that Samus does have definite advantages, I'd hardly call her d-tilt one.

It's very slow in comparison to a lot of Zelda moveset and if your in range to d-tilt Zelda, she's in range to hit you with a whole bunch of quicker moves. Zelda isn't going to let you get that close without hitting you with a smash attack (down or side), a d-tilt, or a neutral A.

And Samus D-tilt > Zelda's d-tilt is debatable.

Sure Samus' kills... but Zelda's is faster. Plus Zelda can combo off of a d-tilt. Including her F-smash, a primary KO move. So Zelda's is faster and she can just combo a KO move off of it, kinda moots that point.

Again, you, like someone else, are saying that Samus' d-tilt is "very slow." It may be slightly faster, but there is no KO potential in it whatsoever. Even claiming that you can make a combo out of it simply means that Samus' d-tilt is far more effective, dangerous and effortless than Zelda's, since Zelda would have to resort into a combo attack. That's not the same as a tilt. It's simply a tilt combined with other tilts, smashes, or neutrals.

Homing missles are slow enough to pull off a Din's and cancel them while hitting Samus. There's no point in reflecting them, I agree, but Zelda can easily counter them with Din's Fire or teleporting with Farore's Wind to simply evade them. Zair is undeniably good on Zelda's aerial sluggishness, but a grounded Zelda has more options than people are giving her credit for.

As for the D-tilt argument... Zelda's is better for sure. They're both good, but Zelda's is more reliable.

And Raphael... Wow, whoosh.

Hello, Iris. Homing Missiles are slow, but they are a deterant. The thing is, a little 5% damage isn't going to defeat anyone alone. It simply pesters the opponent and increases his or her damage. Don't think that a little percent isn't something to not worry about. So, if Zelda doesn't mind taking a bit of damage in order to perform Din's Fire, then hey, that's up to you. Just don't wonder how you got up to 100% when you're at that much damage.

Now, while you say that there's no point in reflecting them, a wise Zelda main would at least space him or herself or shield it. Everyone is different in their style, so I'm not saying that you aren't wise. I'm simply saying that I think it would be best to do this if you were in such situation. Or at least use your neutral A to destroy them, if that's possible. As for Farore's Wind, I don't know if that would be a good idea. Once you use Farore's Wind, all the opponent has to do is wait to see where you pop up, and he or she will attack from there.

No doubt, Zelda is probably good on the ground. I say "probably," because I don't know for certain. I'm only taking your word here. My experience is simply from fighting against other Zelda players. Still, Samus' z-air is just as effective against grounded opponents as it is against aerial opponents. Zelda is a tall character, and she cannot crawl, unless she is Sheik. You could crouch, but what would be the point? I've been able to hit even smaller characters with z-air like Kirby and Pikachu.

Don't get me wrong. I trust that if Zelda, like any character, is played in the right hands, then you could tear it up with her. I'm just simply imparting my experience to all of you so that I might better your skills and help you know who you're going up against. Someone, Raphael, I think, sent us Samus mainers a link to this particular match-up list so that this thread could have information about Samus.

 

[Iris]

Doesn't Din's explode missles? The homing missle approach is pretty easy to get around with Din's big hitbox, and I don't think they cancel, pretty sure Din's actually explodes them and detonates normally, so it's not exactly trading hits.

And shielding is a viable option if the Samus doesn't know how to grab. Spacing is far less punishable, especially with the use of Din's Fire. The hitbox can contain missles and hurt Samus if used at the proper range. Farore's Wind can't really be used to counter it unless the Samus is close to the ground, it simply evades it. You should be out of range if you use it at the right time and at that point you've at least gotten out of harm's way.

Zelda's ground skill is credited a lot to her upsmash. Zair is good, but the range is awful vertically, so Zelda fares well when she can position herself underneath Samus with a roll or short hopped air dodge towards her.

And KO power does not establish the full effectiveness of a move. Is Sheik's ftilt ineffective? Mario's Fireballs? Meta Knight's Mach Tornado?

 

[gantrain05]

Doesn't Din's explode missles? The homing missle approach is pretty easy to get around with Din's big hitbox, and I don't think they cancel, pretty sure Din's actually explodes them and detonates normally, so it's not exactly trading hits.

And shielding is a viable option if the Samus doesn't know how to grab. Spacing is far less punishable, especially with the use of Din's Fire. The hitbox can contain missles and hurt Samus if used at the proper range. Farore's Wind can't really be used to counter it unless the Samus is close to the ground, it simply evades it. You should be out of range if you use it at the right time and at that point you've at least gotten out of harm's way.

Zelda's ground skill is credited a lot to her upsmash. Zair is good, but the range is awful vertically, so Zelda fares well when she can position herself underneath Samus with a roll or short hopped air dodge towards her.

And KO power does not establish the full effectiveness of a move. Is Sheik's ftilt ineffective? Mario's Fireballs? Meta Knight's Mach Tornado?

all i think, is that u zelda mainers are underestimating Zair, its basically a free attack for the samus/zelda matchup, zelda really doesn't have any way to punish well spaced Zairs, and while it seems like a crappy 4%, when samus has u off the edge and just spams Zair and your unable to even recover and u die to the "crappy" Zair simply becuase samus keeps u where she wants u, you will be rethinking your opinion on samus.

 

[Brinzy]

Alright, so I was in a pretty bad mood today and said a lot of stupid things. Sorry.


Anyway, I don't think there are many good Samus players that don't know how to grab, considering the range of her grab; Samus is one of the few characters who can grab Zelda past Nayru's Love's range if I'm not mistaken. Also, if Samus is firing missiles from a good distance, the only thing Zelda really can do with Din's is attack the missile lest she take an unnecessary blow. From what I understand, Samus players combine both missiles and the charge shot to pressure. Zelda isn't going to be hitting much with Din's, considering how fast Samus can throw up a shield after firing a missile. Zelda can reflect them, but she won't be hitting much with reflected attacks because of how Samus approaches/forces an approach with her projectiles. Din's Fire, in my opinion, doesn't bother Samus as much as two missiles and a charge shot bother Zelda.

Then there's the idea that Zelda destroys Samus if Samus is in contact with her. Zelda does this to nearly everyone anyway, so it's not like it's Samus's immediate downfall. Not to mention, Samus always has nair and fair for close encounters, should she need to throw something out in time. I think, however, that Samus is gonna pick up on Zelda's downtime and grab into combos.

Aerial game... well, Samus is generally better. Zair > Lightning kicks when it comes to general spacing, though Zelda can generally land those fairly easily. Zelda has a good nair on Samus, and her uair should protect her from most of what Samus can do, but Samus should be getting the first hit from any other approach.

Recovery... well, many would say that Zelda wins here for destroying bombs, but Din's Fire will more than likely keep Samus alive, and then Samus has a healthy boost to her recovery range at the expense of more damage... but I'd rather try to KO my opponent than risk taking much more damage myself searching for a KO when said person makes it back. Therefore, I'd rather wait until Samus is near the stage to use any of Zelda's aerials. Zelda, on the other hand, has FW. You can be unpredictable with it and it strikes upon reappearance... but like someone said earlier, it can be shielded, so it's best to try and go for the edge... that is, if the Samus player hasn't bair'd you and then snatched the ledge. I know Lucas's Usmash can cut through that reappearance attack, but can Samus's? This I'm unsure of, but regardless, if Zelda is landing on the stage, Samus can get a grab in with ease, and if she's in the air, Samus gets a chance to punish.

The match might be in Zelda's favor, but I hardly believe that it's a big one. I don't know much about Samus, and I'm hoping more Samus players will post their thoughts on the subject.

 

[Mega-Japan]

I'm sorry if I made it sound like Samus has totally no chance against Zelda as if Samus is a bad character, which she isn't. But even with the Grapple Beam and all, I still see many other ways of how Zelda can get over that and ways of Zelda able to punish Samus out of this Grapple Beam.

 

[S2]

Again, you, like someone else, are saying that Samus' d-tilt is "very slow." It may be slightly faster, but there is no KO potential in it whatsoever. Even claiming that you can make a combo out of it simply means that Samus' d-tilt is far more effective, dangerous and effortless than Zelda's, since Zelda would have to resort into a combo attack. That's not the same as a tilt. It's simply a tilt combined with other tilts, smashes, or neutrals.

I'm calling you out on this

1.) Samus d-tilt is slow. It's fact. You need good mindgames to hit with it, which means the Zelda is rolling into it or something similar. If you're in range to d-tilt, Zelda's in range to hit you with her d-smash. Which comes out much faster.

No one is arguing the actual speed of the d-tilt, but the comparative speed. Compared to Zelda's close range options, it's slow.

2.) Are you honestly saying that Zelda's tilt is less useful because you have to combo from it? That's stupid. It's probably the easiest combo in fighting game history. You d-tilt and then jam the c-stick and it's basically guaranteed. Zelda doesn't have the best d-tilt, but it's certainly faster than Samus'. Not that it matters all that much, since Zelda has 3 other options open to her that'll be faster than Samus' d-tilt.

Does it matter if Zelda's d-tilt has no KO potential if it combos into one of her main KO moves? If anything that's more useful.


Keep in mind, I do think that the matchup is close. Probably in Zelda's favor,

 

[gantrain05]

well raphael, i think we all agree lucas's Usmash has the ability to do alot of crazy things, u can even Usmash someone who is hanging from a ledge and it will send em flying, but as for samus cutting thru the reappearance of farores wind, i don't think she can, my friends play both samus and zelda and i've watched the match many times, and i don't think i've ever seen it happen, what usually happens is samus just waits for the reappearance, and if she's close enuf just gives a good Fsmash to zeldas face.

 

[Ztarfish]

1.) Samus d-tilt is slow. It's fact. You need good mindgames to hit with it, which means the Zelda is rolling into it or something similar. If you're in range to d-tilt, Zelda's in range to hit you with her d-smash. Which comes out much faster.

What is your criteria for slowness? Cause Samus's dtilt and Zelda's dtilt come out at nearly the same speed, Samus's may be a little faster. Also Samus's Dtilt outranges Zelda's Dsmash very slightly, so no.

2.) Are you honestly saying that Zelda's tilt is less useful because you have to combo from it? That's stupid. It's probably the easiest combo in fighting game history. You d-tilt and then jam the c-stick and it's basically guaranteed. Zelda doesn't have the best d-tilt, but it's certainly faster than Samus'. Not that it matters all that much, since Zelda has 3 other options open to her that'll be faster than Samus' d-tilt.

Does it matter if Zelda's d-tilt has no KO potential if it combos into one of her main KO moves? If anything that's more useful.

Well I'd say yes to Zelda's tilt being less useful, because KO move >>>> combo into KO move any day. Because combos here are never guaranteed. You can DI so far from Zelda's Dtilt that even Fsmash wont hit. If it pops em up, and you try to utilt or usmash, that's even escapable. And considering they're the SAME SPEED, yeah I'd say Samus's is a lot more useful.

Also I'm guessing those 3 other options are her smashes, out of those, only Fsmash outranges Samus's Dtilt.

And it's fast.

Use Samus's Dtilt moar.

 

[Ztarfish]

Whoops, double post. Ignore please.

 

[Deleted member]

I think samus can jab-> dtilt, thus allowing dtilt to be used faster than any of zeldas moves because of the jab. I explained it wrong, but you get it.

 

[Iris]

What is your criteria for slowness? Cause Samus's dtilt and Zelda's dtilt come out at nearly the same speed, Samus's may be a little faster. Also Samus's Dtilt outranges Zelda's Dsmash very slightly, so no.

Where are you getting the speeds from? Besides, even if it's slower it's more spammable due to less lag and knoackback, meaning it deals more damage when strung together.

Well I'd say yes to Zelda's tilt being less useful, because KO move >>>> combo into KO move any day. Because combos here are never guaranteed. You can DI so far from Zelda's Dtilt that even Fsmash wont hit. If it pops em up, and you try to utilt or usmash, that's even escapable. And considering they're the SAME SPEED, yeah I'd say Samus's is a lot more useful.

Why would a kill move be better? Comboing into a kill move means that you get an extra damage boost and can kill earlier without having to get another opening. It's also better against spot dodges and rolls if the move you string to it hits on both sides or is fast. Also, down tilt to down smash is a true combo, it's guaranteed at lowish percents if the d-tilt connects close enough.

Also I'm guessing those 3 other options are her smashes, out of those, only Fsmash outranges Samus's Dtilt.

It's more than 3 if Nayru's outranges it and/or you know how to dodge.

Use Samus's Dtilt moar.

Make me, chump!

 

[Mega-Japan]

Make me, chump!

lol, epic win.

 

[Ztarfish]

Where are you getting the speeds from? Besides, even if it's slower it's more spammable due to less lag and knoackback, meaning it deals more damage when strung together.

The fact that when both are crouching and both press A at the same time, they both do their Dtilt at nearly the same time.

Why would a kill move be better? Comboing into a kill move means that you get an extra damage boost and can kill earlier without having to get another opening.

Lies, when Dtilt is used at killing percentages, it pops em up. Why not Usmash or Utilt? One might say. CAUSE YOU CAN FREAKIN AIRDODGE IT. Samus's Dtilt pops em up as well, except it KILLS so one does not need to rely on combos to get the job done.

It's also better against spot dodges and rolls if the move you string to it hits on both sides or is fast. Also, down tilt to down smash is a true combo, it's guaranteed at lowish percents if the d-tilt connects close enough.

Dtilt to Dsmash is a combo if it's ONLY that. If you string a bunch of Dtilts together before smashing, it's not likely you'll follow up with anything if they know anything about DI. In addition it's only a true combo below 92% in which Dsmash isn't gonna kill anyone. Yes Zelda's Dtilt is wonderful at racking up damages, Just don't say it's just as capable as killing as Samus's Dtilt based on unreliable combos.

It's more than 3 if Nayru's outranges it and/or you know how to dodge.

Right, cause I forgot the Samus will obviously not know how to dodge/shield as well.

Make me, chump!

Look, I know nothing about Samus vs. Zelda. I'm just comparing Dtilt to dtilt. They are the same speed, everyone seems to have warped perceptions about just how slow it actually is. And I am also inputting my own opinion that if you're intending to kill, Samus's Dtilt is better and more reliable than Zelda's since they are the same speed and have similar range, if you are able to connect with Zelda's, the Samus is probably able to connect with her's.

Yes, I admit that Zelda's Dtilt is a wonderful move, but I disagree that Samus's Dtilt is not a wonderful move.

 

[Crystanium]

Doesn't Din's explode missles? The homing missle approach is pretty easy to get around with Din's big hitbox, and I don't think they cancel, pretty sure Din's actually explodes them and detonates normally, so it's not exactly trading hits.

And shielding is a viable option if the Samus doesn't know how to grab. Spacing is far less punishable, especially with the use of Din's Fire. The hitbox can contain missles and hurt Samus if used at the proper range. Farore's Wind can't really be used to counter it unless the Samus is close to the ground, it simply evades it. You should be out of range if you use it at the right time and at that point you've at least gotten out of harm's way.

Zelda's ground skill is credited a lot to her upsmash. Zair is good, but the range is awful vertically, so Zelda fares well when she can position herself underneath Samus with a roll or short hopped air dodge towards her.

And KO power does not establish the full effectiveness of a move. Is Sheik's ftilt ineffective? Mario's Fireballs? Meta Knight's Mach Tornado?

Din's Fire does have an incredible hitbox. I don't know if you'd have enough time to perform Din's Fire before getting hit by the Homing Missiles. The reason is because you must hold down the neutral B in order for Din's Fire to remain as a ball of fire before exploding. You can release it early to cause it to explode, but sometimes when Zelda is hit while performing Din's Fire, the attack cancels, kind of like Ness' PK Flash.

My brother plays as Ness, and so when I perform z-air, sometimes it'll hit him, and sometimes it won't, if he performs his air-dodge at the correct time. Still, just because Samus' z-air is vertical, doesn't mean it's easy to dodge. Like I pointed out before, I've hit small opponents (e.g. Kirby, Pikachu, &c.) I don't know how you'd be able to position yourself under Samus, unless the person playing as Samus accidentally performed a high jump.

Now, to d-tilt. Here are the results.

• Attack: D-Tilt
• Character Tested On: Mario
• Stage Tested On: Final Destination
  • Samus' d-tilt does 14% damage. Zelda's d-tilt does 7% damage.
  • Samus is capable of defeating Mario with the d-tilt at 131%, while Zelda's can defeat Mario at 385%.
  • Samus' d-tilt has better range. Zelda's neutral A, d-tilt, and d-smash could not hit Samus, though Samus was capable of hitting Zelda with the d-tilt.
  • Samus' d-tilt does not come out as quickly as Zelda's, by comparison. It comes out quick, nevertheless.

Zelda's d-tilt may be effective, but only against those who don't know how to DI out of the attack. However, I was referring to KO potential, and the burden of proof would be on you guys to prove that Zelda's d-tilt alone has any effectiveness. Heck, Sheik's f-tilt is better, because it can juggle heavy opponents. Samus is the fifth heaviest character, and she falls into the heavy category. So yes, there is effectiveness in that. Mario's Fire Balls are better, too, because he can space himself while firing multiple fire balls. The same with Meta Knight's Mach Tornado. Sure, most of his attacks lack KO potential, but the Mach Tornado can out-prioritize most attacks.

 

[Crystanium]

I'm calling you out on this

1.) Samus d-tilt is slow.

It's not "very slow," however. I recall someone saying "very slow." If you want, I can provide a video just for you if that helps.

It's fact. You need good mindgames to hit with it, which means the Zelda is rolling into it or something similar. If you're in range to d-tilt, Zelda's in range to hit you with her d-smash. Which comes out much faster.

False. I tested this out today, and Zelda's d-tilt, d-smash, and neutral A lack range compared to Samus' d-tilt. Test it out for yourself.

No one is arguing the actual speed of the d-tilt, but the comparative speed. Compared to Zelda's close range options, it's slow.

Slightly. I recall "very slow" being the term. Maybe that was exaggerated on your part. But we needn't have unnecessary verbiage in order to think we know what we're talking about.

2.) Are you honestly saying that Zelda's tilt is less useful because you have to combo from it? That's stupid. It's probably the easiest combo in fighting game history. You d-tilt and then jam the c-stick and it's basically guaranteed. Zelda doesn't have the best d-tilt, but it's certainly faster than Samus'. Not that it matters all that much, since Zelda has 3 other options open to her that'll be faster than Samus' d-tilt.

Yes, I am. Do you know why? Because Sinking Higher (on page 1) noted three of Samus' KO attacks. The d-tilt was one of them. D-tilt alone has KO potential, and yet, Sinking Higher had the audacity to say that Zelda's d-tilt was better. By what? Speed? Because if that's it, then Zelda's d-tilt is flimsy.

Does it matter if Zelda's d-tilt has no KO potential if it combos into one of her main KO moves? If anything that's more useful.

Except, I don't recall combining attacks starting from the d-tilt.

Keep in mind, I do think that the matchup is close. Probably in Zelda's favor,

I wonder why?

 

[Crystanium]

all i think, is that u zelda mainers are underestimating Zair, its basically a free attack for the samus/zelda matchup, zelda really doesn't have any way to punish well spaced Zairs, and while it seems like a crappy 4%, when samus has u off the edge and just spams Zair and your unable to even recover and u die to the "crappy" Zair simply becuase samus keeps u where she wants u, you will be rethinking your opinion on samus.

Samus' z-air can cause 7% damage if you are hit by the tip of it. It also has an increased knock-back. I've defeated a few opponents because of this.

 

[FirebyrdXX]

Two things I want to correct you on Dryn:

1) Hitting Zelda during Din's never cancels the move. The fireball will always travel the maximum distance and then detonate, so if you're in the zone you can still get hit by the move despite having hit Zelda during it.

2) D-tilt can combo into four moves: another d-tilt, d-smash- angled f-tilt and f smash. I'm not sure if you knew this but Zelda's d-tilt has a 50% chance of tripping with each hit. It's after the trip that you get a guaranteed smash, and after a non trip that you'll sometimes get a follow up. Also consider this you admitted Samus' d-tilt is slower in comparison to zelda's right? Well say your opponent dodges or shields the initial move. Zelda can throw out a second one much quicker than Samus can and is more likely to get a second successful hit, because it can also hit beneath shrinking shields.

So I won't argue that it's easier to kill with Zelda's d-tilt. I do however think it has better reliability and utility.

 

[goodkid]

Main: Zelda
?-Falco
1)Currently Slight advantage
2)Neutral
3)Falco has lasers, good KO power, good edgeguard, hard to edgeguard, reflector, chaingrabs, Din's does not work well with Falco because he can cancel it out with reflector, and lasers eat up Zelda even with Dodges, Shield, & Nayru's.

 

[Luthien]

2) D-tilt can combo into four moves: another d-tilt, d-smash- angled f-tilt and f smash.

You're forgeting usmash and utilt, depending on your opponent's damage.

However, that's not the point. The point is, Zelda's dtilt isn't very reliable due to DI. Whereas you might get a KO out of Zelda's dtilt if it connects, you will get a KO if Samus's dtilt connects. And seeing as how both are apparently about the same speed, the likelihood of both moves connecting is close to the same. By that logic, Samus's dtilt > Zelda's dtilt.

I would just like someone to find something out for me though. What is the lag difference between the two moves. Zelda's dtilt is spammable, so if you miss the first one or if it's blocked, you can just keep jamming it until it finds its target or shieldstabs. Is Samus's dtilt laggy (I'm under the impression it is a bit).

 

[psike]

This is funny...

Samus' Advantages

I am a Zelda main, but I just started getting good with Samus last week and I honestly said last night that Samus' Dtilt is the sexiest move in the game. Out of any kill move that I've learned, it is the only one where I actually had a difficult time using because I would time it *much* too early at first- I actually had to delay my actions with it. I think this is because the speed at which Samus can run and turn (or not turn) and then spit out that move is incredible. When Zelda is running and needs to stop into a down tilt it is still fast, but not as fast as Samus'.

In combination with Samus's bombs, it is easy to switch up your runs for fake outs, and most of Zelda's more common power moves, such as the upsmash and her charge leave her in one position for a while after missing.

Also keep in mind how weak Zelda is when being attacked from below. Samus has a very effective u-air that will keep players in a spot into which she can upB. Many players don't realize how much damage Samus' screw attack dishes out. It also has some decent knockback that can mean that you get to the groud before Zelda (sometimes).

Arguably, two of Zelda's moves are also far less useful on Samus than on her average opponent. Her uair is practically useless, as Samus can land just about anywhere she chooses with her missle buffering and her drop speed. Zelda's upsmash is also less useful, as most Samus' will be using moves that are used at just out of range of Zelda's dtilt, which means they aren't going to be in its range most of the time.

One final note is that Samus' upsmash (while not as effective as Zeldas) has great range due to the fact that you can slide with it. It also travels from front to back, so that if you slide through a player you can hit them with most of the hits along the way, if you are good with it.

Zelda's Advantages

Zelda's projectile is of some use against Samus for projectile sheilding and distance kos, but she has to use it in moderation because of homing missles. Her reflector is practically useless, however, unless it is for a close range attack.

Zelda's lightning kicks are of great use when Samus is using her flamethrower or her grapple.

Zelda's upb will kill Samus's rythm unless she's got some missles already cookin.


Just my thoughts.

 

[Deleted member]

Just so u know, at a little more than half way across SV, with zelda at the end of the stage, samus can shoot a homing missle at the same time as zelda uses dins, and samus will land and shield the dins and zelda will be hit. Just a little somethin u might wanna know when talking about spamming vs samus.

 

[Crystanium]

Two things I want to correct you on Dryn:

1) Hitting Zelda during Din's never cancels the move. The fireball will always travel the maximum distance and then detonate, so if you're in the zone you can still get hit by%

 

[Brinzy]

i don't feel as if Samus and Sonic are done... but anyway:



It's frustrating to face Dedede with Zelda. I honestly have so much trouble against him because he seems to just overwhelm me completely, and he does a lot of poking to stay away from Nayru's Love and my Dsmash.

I need more insight on this match. Some say it's an easy match, but I beg to differ...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

i don't feel as if Samus and Sonic are done... but anyway:



It's frustrating to face Dedede with Zelda. I honestly have so much trouble against him because he seems to just overwhelm me completely, and he does a lot of poking to stay away from Nayru's Love and my Dsmash.

I need more insight on this match. Some say it's an easy match, but I beg to differ...

I don;t think we ever said we were done did we?

As for DDD

let's look at what makes DDD a good character
- he's heavy
- he's Strong
- He's got a good recovery
- He has a spammy projectile that counters most other porjectiles
- He has good range
- He's frustrating to approach.
- Has aWoP
- Has a Chain grab


... now let's look at what zelda has to say about each point in turn
-So he's heavy? This is still true Vs. Zelda... but the fact that she can compete with IKE for total number of kill moves and that he's a giant, wobbling target makes this advantage one that DDD can't rely on like a crutch.
-yes... he's strong.. so Zelda has to watch out... luckily, it'll be hard for him to land those strong moves, but Zelda's light... this is still n advantage.
-It's a good recovery... but it's also a very PUNISHABLE recovery... and, oh, Zelda CAN punish it.
- His projectile is significantly outspammed by din's fire.
- Zelda has good range too... and hers comes with more reliable speed meaning that some of his biggest moves just won't likely connect.
-Luckily... Zelda doesn't have to approach... DDD does... and his approach game is... lakcing... at best
- WoP is nigh useless against Zelda's recovery because, for all its faults, it DOES still succede in teleporting right thorough enemies.
- nanananana,,, you can't chain grab Zelda.

So... it's not JUST that Zelda does well against him... it's ALSO... maybe even moreseo that she counters all his reliable benefits.

 

[Brinzy]

I only assumed people were done with Samus and Sonic because the topic seemed a little dead.

As for that, what about actually going on the offensive with Zelda? I swear that bair of his cuts through nearly everything I throw out.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I only assumed people were done with Samus and Sonic because the topic seemed a little dead.

As for that, what about actually going on the offensive with Zelda? I swear that bair of his cuts through nearly everything I throw out.

DDD has a LOT of cooldown on most moves... as long as you wait for an opening, it's not to hard to get offensive. and... his bair.... just NEVER be airborne if you aren't in the advantageous position.

 

[FirebyrdXX]

Against DDD I think it's actually better to be a bit aggressive. as he's such a big and comboable character. He shorthop dairs a lot? Well from far away you should obviously Din's, but closer I suggest spot dodging followed by u-smash or u-tilt. When he's above you is when you can combo the crap out of him. He's really easy to land uairs and lightning kicks on. Also, DDD is not good at attacking from straight above since his dair has horrible recovery after hitting the ground. Nair isn't bad though, but still punishable. And we all know how good Zelda is from below.

So yeah, keep DDD close and keep hitting him.

 

[Oh Snap]

Oops. Wrong topic.

 

[GodAtHand]

What are peoples opinions on Olimar? (What is difficult to do, what works well on him etc.)

 

[FirebyrdXX]

I haven't fought many Olimars, but I know it's not an easy fight. First off he's small, so he's hard to sweetspot. Second, he has the safest grab in the game, it's a tether will practically no lag. I think he can grab outside of Zelda's f-smash zone. You can outrange him with Din's at least and you can gimp his recovery, but otherwise I have no specific strategies and I know it'll be a tough match.