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Zelda matchups discussion - Wisdom mainers discuss the SWF matchup chart

leogeo2

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
71
Location
Awesomeville, NJ
I gave up on using Usmash and Fsmash too much on Olimar. They don't seem to work at all because they can DI out of it. Sure there are some ticks of damage but being that the last one doesn't hit often, you'd rather just use a tilt. I fully use reflect to get some of the pikmin thrown back to him. Other than that it's making sure you aren't kept at a mid range. Olimar > Zelda at the mid range combat but at long range a Din's Fire might help get rid of the Pikmin around him a little.

Dsmash is my definite Olimar killer, especially if he happens to be low on Pikmin. The angle that he's thrown at makes it impossible for him to recover at that point.
 

RoguefanAM

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 10, 2008
Messages
23
Location
Weslaco, Texas
Olimar's pikmin confuse me at times, what with them surrounding him sometimes I missjudge the distance of a smash attack and leave myself wide-open during a match. His smashes are fairly strong, and lenghty (in range, not time) so that's a pain in the rear too. Plus he's so small I can't land a sweet-spotted lightening kick. :urg:

Another character I seem to have problems with is Pickachu. He'll always end up getting behind me and use his high priority d-smash. Which also sucks (as in the motion of sucking in a character). Thunder is much hated as well, since a good Pickachu will often use it when you least expect it. The loud 'PIIIKKKA' just isn't enough warning sometimes. :psycho:
 

FirebyrdXX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
65
Pikachu's d-smash is easily DI'd out of. I always get out of it by the second hit. And you can actually reflect thunder and have it hurt Pika you know? Pikachu likes to be in the air a lot, so u-smash is your friend.
 

FirebyrdXX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
65
I see lots of shorthopped thunderjolts, quick attacks fairs and nair. He has a good ground game too though, since he's quick with low lag moves. I say trip him with down tilt, use NL sparingly since he's quick enough to punish it. Use d-smash more.
 

rageagainst

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
257
nice to see EVERYONE stopped following the rules
Main:Zelda
Big Advantage: Bowser
One of the, if not THE easiest character to nail lightning kicks on, Zelda's most powerful move. His laggy moves make it easy for zelda to spam any of her moves and gives plenty of opportunity to get in those hard to hit lightning kicks, which are actually quite easy to hit on bowser.

Big Advantage: Ike
Ike can't do anything about Din's fire, and it forces him to approach. Once he approaches he has to deal with one of the best defensive games in Brawl. Overall this character has the most start-up lag on all his moves, making a lot of Zelda's quick casted moves easy to hit on him. He also has an above average build, making it easier than average to kick him. There ARE tricks good Ike's can do to beat a Zelda, but for the most part, its going to be a steep uphill battle for him.
 

Luthien

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
792
Location
Victoria, British Columbia
Big Advantage: Ike
Ike can't do anything about Din's fire, and it forces him to approach. Once he approaches he has to deal with one of the best defensive games in Brawl. Overall this character has the most start-up lag on all his moves, making a lot of Zelda's quick casted moves easy to hit on him. He also has an above average build, making it easier than average to kick him. There ARE tricks good Ike's can do to beat a Zelda, but for the most part, its going to be a steep uphill battle for him.
Main: Zelda

I disagree. Din's fire does nothing to Ike except for shutting down his QD game somewhat... somewhat. Whoever draws DF/QD first wins. But that's not the entire fight.

Ike has a pretty big sword, and while it may be slow, it outranges a lot of Zelda's defensive game. He can come at Zelda and your basic dsmash instinct won't work on him, if only because he's out of harm's way while he's attacking you. He doesn't need to get as close to you as Bowser does (and I agree that Bowser is at a big disandvantage). I'll give an example of what I'm trying to say: Ike's fair approach.

Ike's fair gives Zelda some problems. If he short-hops it she can usually catch him before he lands it with a usmash/hyphendash, and if he full-jumps it Zelda can sometimes Din's (because usmash won't work if he full-jumps). Ike's Fair hits Zelda whether full-jumped or short-hopped, that's how big the hitbox is. Unfortunately for Zelda's counters to this approach, only an idiot would keep jumping in with a fair all the time without spicing it up. And even if he doesn't spice it up, sometimes the upsmash won't make it out in time and you've just eaten a fair. Zelda's counters on this aren't even close to reliable if you have a any hesitation whatsoever.

Also, his fair may take a while to start up, but the lag isn't too bad. If you try to avoid it and rush in to punish, you may find yourself eating a jab combo. His fair outranges all of Zelda's moves save Din's, but if you miscalculate even a little trying to stop his approach, you'll get a big bronze sword to the face.

With that uber-long explanation on just one of Ike's approach options, I'd like to make it a bit more brief. Zelda's quick-casted moves won't hit Ike if they can't reach him, and if Ike has any sense of spacing you won't be landing any dsmashes/fsmashes/dtilts/etc. And although he may be larger than some, Ike wins in the air against Zelda, period. Every one of his arials outranges hers, save uair, and uair is tricky to land on an Ike (Eruption is a good uair punisher too, I might add). And an arial approach against a grounded Ike isn't the best idea. You won't be landing many kicks on him. I'm unsure as to what the actual matchup is against Ike, but I know that it isn't a steep uphill battle for him.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
7,605
Location
Ohio
NNID
SonicTheHedgedog
3DS FC
3437-3319-6725
Both Zelda AND shiek completely **** fox in every imagineable way.... it might be her best matchup.
 

RoguefanAM

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 10, 2008
Messages
23
Location
Weslaco, Texas
FirebyrdXX said:
Pikachu's d-smash is easily DI'd out of. I always get out of it by the second hit. And you can actually reflect thunder and have it hurt Pika you know? Pikachu likes to be in the air a lot, so u-smash is your friend.
Yeah, I know that thunder can be reflected, but still...often times it catches me off guard and I simply don't have time to pull out NL. If I actually do see the attack coming, I air dodge it. It's safer that way. As for his d-smash, I didn't know you could DI out of it. Useful information, but I doubt it'll be as easy in actual application. I never really been able to successfully DI out of most attacks, usually I just go with the flow and let it hit me.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

Oh, and to add to the thread =

Main - Zelda
Change - Pikachu moved to Neutral
Pikachu's got a lot things going for him: speed, good power, range, and size. All bad things for Zelda. Din's fire can't be abused as well it could against larger characters, considering how small of a target he is, and how fast he can approach you. His thunderjolt's an annoying projectile. His forward smash has good range and power, comparable to your own f-smash. His d-smash is good as well. And, of course, there's thunder. Also, I'm pretty sure his air game beats Zelda's. What keeps this from being a bad match is the fact that his two projectile can be reflected and that, since he is light, Pikachu can be KO'd easily if hit. Still, Zelda has her work cut out for her.
 

FirebyrdXX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
65
I think Ike is only disadvantaged, not hugely disadvantaged. Yeah he's easy to dodge most of the time, but because nobody has perfect reactions and dodging skills, fact is you're going to take damage and Ike is going to be KOing Zelda fairly early, like 70% or so (if you're unlucky). Fighting Ike is like fighting dynamite that could blow you up at any second. Yeah, he's slow again and Zelda ***** him on the ground, but he can still kill you in at least 4 moves, so that makes him dangerous.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
7,605
Location
Ohio
NNID
SonicTheHedgedog
3DS FC
3437-3319-6725
Shiek COMPLETELY ***** ike though... so it's not a huge issue... just press down B
 

Rykoshet

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
2,225
Location
No really, I quit.
Ike's best bet against sheik is actually pressuring her in return, keeping her on one side of the stage and standing his ground. If he has to retreat or create distance it automatically gives sheik a grave advantage due to the nature of both characters.

As for the zelda matchup, luthien covered it and all he had to do is mention one of his moves. Nair, jabs, quick draw to clear distance. All the ike has to do is learn to stop spot dodging and rolling, holding your shield against zelda is a freebie punish 90% of the time. That isnt even counting when the ike actually knows the timing and spacing of moves like Nayru's Love, Up Smash, and Farore's Wind. You wanna see frustrating? Have a competent ike knock you off the stage, have fun with that.
 
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