Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[Kataefi]

It certainly is too good, but would you trade that for Zelda's bair?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

the grand majority of the time, they don't have to. ROB's fair is going to come out and whap you in the face before you can get into bair position.

 

[Kataefi]

Can't Zelda roll to rob's behind and escape any SH Fair approaches. The only time I see him using this effectively is when she's offstage.

 

[-Mars-]

Before I go to bed. Counterpick stages. there are some I'm not comfortable with:

1) Ike
why the hell is it FD? he gets ***** against us if we take him to Japes in my experience.

2) Peach
mansion? really? I can't imagine why. we rely on top of the screen KOs against her normally and mansion hinders that without giving us much back in return.

3) Pikachu
is mansion. it's one of zelda's BEST stages and every pikachu agrees that it's a horrid stage for pikachu. change it if you want to remain credible <_<

4) Captain Falcon:
it seems corneria was rather arbitartily picked to me. I have no idea why this is listed as our best stage against him but I certainly can't think of any reason why it would be. Zelda does well with platforms... it has no platforms. Zelda is hard for CF to approach... the sloping ground makes it easier for him. Zelda is hard for CF to kill. the ridiculously close balst zones lets him uair kill us near edges without much trouble. if anything, it seems like a BAD stage to me and I don't remember anyone voting for it .... just RoyalBlood arbitarily putting it down.


I'd really like some support here, or some reasoning that they should stay

I agree, these all really should be changed. We've already discussed how the spacing on FD helps Ike significantly more than Zelda.

Peach should probably be BF, I don't know any specific stage where we would have an advantage.

Pikachu is obvious and is agreed upon by both sides.

I don't really know much about CF and honestly don't care, but I don't see how Corneria would be an advantage for Zelda in any way......if anything it plays into his favor.

 

[Kataefi]

Personally, I need a lot of space against Peach. I would use final destination against her as I find the space I'm given a breath of fresh air.

Havn't played her enough on battlefield to really get a sense of the matchup there.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Personally, I need a lot of space against Peach. I would use final destination against her as I find the space I'm given a breath of fresh air.

Havn't played her enough on battlefield to really get a sense of the matchup there.

I the extra space is nice, but in my experience, we are aided by platforms more than peach is. is their a larger stage that has platforms that could help us? maybe brinstar or norfair could screw her up... then again, peach punishes non sweetspotted recoveries more often than any other charcter I've faced, so maybe not.

a stage that screws up her float would be nice, but I'm at a loss to think of one that'll do that reliably.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

hows Zelda on distant planet? thats not the best of peach stages with the exception of free items. and ledge camping with them. maybe brinstar (i don't go there alot so idk how i'd do there as peach)

Norfair to me is alright, more air approaching and if you can hold the central middle zelda can Usmash and stop her from coming there, then that leaves the turnip camping...

but i think i'd rather fight peach on BF, cause of the platforms, and SV since im comfortable there

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

hows Zelda on distant planet? thats not the best of peach stages with the exception of free items. and ledge camping with them. maybe brinstar (i don't go there alot so idk how i'd do there as peach)

Norfair to me is alright, more air approaching and if you can hold the central middle zelda can Usmash and stop her from coming there, then that leaves the turnip camping...

but i think i'd rather fight peach on BF, cause of the platforms, and SV since im comfortable there

I was actually just thinking about distant planet. I like it against toon links and falcos if they ban Mansion. I like it there, but I don't think most zelda's have experience there.

even so. I would be willing to try it over mansion. gives us free glide toss toys!

 

[JigglyZelda003]

interestingly enough you can play ground camping on that stage with the toys. by glide tossing them into the floor part under the end of the vine at the left, where the water runs down, they bounce up across the vine. the vine also can mess with ground floating and the two platfors there can give Zelda some sort of protection.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

and zelda can poke through them. the sloped ground really hinders peach's float ability too. so does the sloped ground on yoshi's island (melee)

 

[Takumaru]

Distant planet sucks as peach. It's just not a fun stage for her. The lay out is weird and messes with floating. Norfair is screwy but to a lesser extent. She can utilt spam there and the platforms don't effect her in the worst way.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

so what changes did we want?

Ike:
Jungle Japes

Peach:
Distant Planet

Pikachu:
Luigi's Mansion (DUH!?!)

Captain Falcon:
ACTUAL DISCUSSION

 

[JigglyZelda003]

well someplace decent size would be nice for Falcon, im comfortable on SV so i usually go there. but i think i'd take him to the mansion too

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

well someplace decent size would be nice for Falcon, im comfortable on SV so i usually go there. but i think i'd take him to the mansion too

mansion would really do nothing special to aid us against falcon. all 4 neutrals are good IMO

 

[deepseadiva]

Peach:
Distant Planet

Distant Planet is a horrible horrible place. =____=

Freakin place is made of anti-float floors. The leaves cling, the bouncy platform follows you into the air, and the slope is no help at all.

I'd recommended... Corneria against her as well.

Low ceiling and weird terrain aren't good.

 

[Bandit]

Distant Planet... another banned stage in my area...

At least it is not Luigi's or Battlefield. I'm just happy people want to branch out.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Distant Planet... another banned stage in my area...

At least it is not Luigi's or Battlefield. I'm just happy people want to branch out.

I just want to win. I'll take whatever stage I can do that on easiest. and for peach it's not Luigi's Mansion for SURE. Battlefield is still nice but there are better options.

I prefer distant planet because it has platforms which zelda likes, but Corneria would probably be nice for early KOs.

both are good stages. both are better than Luigi's mansion OR battlefield against peach.

so what do we have so far that needs to be changed?

Ike:
Jungle Japes

Peach:
Distant Planet or maybe Corneria if distant planet is banned

Pikachu:
Luigi's Mansion!!!!!

Captain Falcon:
NOT CORNERIA!

 

[Kataefi]

Cool, I'll use this information and place them in the chart thread

 

[Sudai]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6171692#post6171692

We're also discussing you guys. I'm gonna write up a big thing later today that encompasses my opinion and will be posting it in both locations. If you could post responses to it in the ROB board, I'd be greatly appreciative.

 

[Mocha19]

Yay Sudai!!! =]

 

[Kataefi]

Mocha what is your opinion on the matchup? You sound really enthusiastic!

 

[Shinarouji]

Katafei, you want to play a match?

 

[Mocha19]

Well.. Zelda's got the ability to keep R.O.B. from being campy when the time comes to it especially when he's off the stage, which is good because his options are limited that way. What I've seen from Sudai with many of his opponents, he likes to Ledgecamp, which is something that I assume most other good R.O.B.'s will do as well. Din's fire eliminates that. Just don't chase him off the stage.. That's a bad idea. Be patient and wait for him to get back on. It's all about anticipating what he'll do to on that ledge as well. I believe this is one of the few cases in which Zelda can actually pressure another character rather than it being the other way around.

Watch out for his neutral aerial. It's better not to chase a lot in the air, rather just keep him guessing at what you're going to try and do to him. There are things that Zelda can do that can definitely trick R.O.B. into an Usmash if she gets to the ground from the air faster, which in most cases that does happen. His best defense against her in the air is Nair, so make sure to keep an eye on that move. He's a big target, so tricking him into a Bair/Fair is not so hard either.

If they're both on the ground, R.O.B. has the range game on Zelda and if he plays this correctly, he can get a good pressure game going on her. He can chain a lot of short hopped aerials to his Dtilt. Ftilt is a beast. His Spotdodge > Dsmash combo is much better than Zelda's, but if she shields while her back is turned to him during the Dsmash, she gets a free Bair if done fast enough. I'm sure I've frustrated Sudai quite a lot with that, but he learned. Nair'ing out of shield can really help as well in certain situations and could actually lead to another if placed correctly, but getting close enough to R.O.B. is really no easy task. It's really hard to successfully get a Dtilt lock on a good R.O.B. It's kinda hard to kill him too without those strong knockout moves unless you save your Usmash sometimes, which is what I do sometimes for this particular match.

If he gets Zelda off of the stage, it's time to worry because it's definitely his time to safely fire his projectiles and possibly set up for a gimp/kill. R.O.B.'s one of these characters that can REALLY take advantage of Zelda's easily predictable recovery, which means of Zelda has enough damage on her when she's off the stage, it's safe enough to assume that the stock is lost.

If you see his Gyro out, TAKE IT!! Great tool for Glide Tossing which opens up quite a few mindgame possibilities. Glide Toss > Usmash can do wonders for shield stabbing.

If both players are really good, this match is a lot of fun. Sudai and I have even switched characters for this before. When we usually play, we always went back and forth in our games. Even to the point where we both believed it was a dead even matchup with both of us having strong opinions on both sides.

I'd say call it either 50:50 or 55:45 in Zelda's favor. 60:40 in Zelda's favor could be pushing it a little , but I'd be cool with that too.

As for stage, I suggest Battlefield.. But I usually always pick that stage anyway, but it could help because I don't think there's all that much that R.O.B. can effectively do on the platforms.. Correct me if I'm wrong on this though..

Glad to be of assistance!! =D

 

[Sudai]

I love you Mocha. : )

I still need to do my write-up. Uber fit of depression/lazyness ftl.

I'll have it to you guys as soon as I get some energy. x.x

 

[JCaesar]

I'll post my thoughts from the ROB boards for your viewing pleasure (keep in mind this is from a ROB's perspective):

Brinstar: The nonsolid main platform is bad for Zelda, but the close boundaries, hittable stage parts, uneven ground, and SD-saving lava push this stage in Zelda's favor. She will be killing you at retardly low %s (especially if she lands a uair when you're stuck on a platform), her multihit smashes become very dangerous when she's near the goop, and there are several parts of the stage where she can pin you in her dtilt trap and the uneven ground will make it very difficult to DI out of. And on top of that it's a bad stage for camping. This is one you might possibly want to think about banning vs Zelda.

Norfair: This one is also great for Zelda. Gimping her or taking advantage of her recovery lag isn't even an option here. Once she's at kill %, she can camp the bottom platform and be incredibly difficult to approach. She can stand under the little lip on one side so that none of your projectiles can hit her, and still bend her Din's up to hit you. Also a possible ban.

PS 1 is like Lylat Cruise Light, the edges are very hard for her to sweetspot so it's not a bad stage at all to counterpick her to. There are better options though.

Frigate Orpheon is obvious, but Jungle Japes is also a good counterpick. Zelda sucks at getting out of the water. If she falls in, just chase left and laser her in the startup lag of her up-B. It's too easy to gimp her there. ROB also lives beyond forever.

Zelda's also have trouble with nonsolid platforms, so Delfino is a possible CP. Halberd is risky because it's solid for a lot of the match and it has a low ceiling.


More matchup stuff:

Zelda's dair isn't that dangerous. ROB is the hardest character in the game to successfully spike, by far.

Her dsmash isn't that dangerous to ROB either. The only reason it's dangerous to other characters is because it sends them at a low angle from which it's difficult to recover. ROB doesn't have that problem.

Ftilt is only good for punishing in this matchup. If you spam/poke with it, you'll get caught in her fsmash. Although, ROB's fsmash beats Zelda's fsmash if they're spaced right, because ROB's is more disjointed.

ROB can outcamp Zelda. Din's are slow and easy to shield. ROB's projectiles can be mixed up in speed and angles, and are much harder to shield. Zelda can throw out a reflector, but a good ROB will never get hit by reflected projectiles and if she reflects a gyro, ROB can punish with a laser in the ending lag if you time it right.

Zelda can be gimped, because if ROB is off the stage harassing her with fairs she literally can't up-B. But in a real match, Zelda can always up-B through ROB to the stage before ROB gets out there to gimp her. The trick is to jump off the stage and catch her with a fair when she attempts to get to the ledge with her 2nd jump instead of her up-B, and keep the pressure up until she dies. She will only make that mistake once though.

Don't spam spotdodge against Zelda. Her usmash is too good. Shield the whole thing and punish OoS.

Speaking of Zelda's usmash, it beats every one of ROB's aerial approaches, so play smart.

Whenever she dtilts, DI away. This will save you damage at early %s and utilt kills at higher %s. Do not challenge her dtilt, it has scary priority. Walk away and punish with an ftilt.

Glidetossing doesn't work great if Zelda predicts it. Even if you throw the gyro down so it doesn't get reflected, her reflector will hit you before you can do anything anyway. If she hides in her shield though, then by all means glidetoss her ***.


More to come later if I think of anything else. This is the matchup I've been playing the most for the last month or so, and while my training partner isn't quite tournament caliber yet, he plays his best against me and I've learned a lot about the matchup.

I'd put it at 55:45 with a slight edge to Zelda, just because she racks damage like crazy (21% LKs and 16% Din's wtf?) and kills very well and is not nearly as easy to gimp as you might think.

And yes, I'm the ROB player in Red Bandit's vids.

 

[-Mars-]

Good summary JCaesar!

I had to laugh at the irony though when you said a good ROB will never be hit with an reflected profectile

 

[JCaesar]

Yeah I know In the Delfino video I died to a reflected gyro, dunno what I was thinking.

I really mean that reflected projectiles aren't a threat when ROB is camping. That gyro was supposed to be a surprise, but Bandit plays me so much that he knew it was coming.

 

[GwJ]

Yea, it happens. When you don't expect them to do that at all, you just seem to blank out when it DOES happen and you end up with one of those "think fast!" moments.

 

[Mocha19]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, Zelda Boards!! =]

 

[-Mars-]

Merry Christmas Mocha!

 

[GreyFox86]

How was everyone's Christmas? I for one just came back from a 1 trip to Austin for family field day. Anyways, I only want to ask to do Lucas and/or Ganon in the next matchup

 

[RoyalBlood]

So which is the ratio for R.O.B.? =O
and stage?? :o

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

oh wow. I can't remember I think it was 55:45 Zelda's advantage and norfair, but you'll heve to look through to check.

oh and some of the other stage choices you have lissted have been disputed

 

[Rykoshet]

Japes is still allowed... anywhere? I thought the utter **** that is falco on that stage got it banned.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah I know. It sucks really. At least it's okayish for Zelda ^^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yeah I know. It sucks really. At least it's okayish for Zelda ^^

just not against falco or pit ... or some other characters. it's a pretty meh stage for her actually now that I think about it. the ONLY thing it has going for her is that it lets her camp on a side platform, but against anyone who can outcamp her or approach her easily, it becomes a terrible stage for her becuase it removes most of her KO ability and gimps her recovery

 

[RoyalBlood]

Should I write moar in-depth match-ups here too? =O
Kataefi's ones are great so, hmmm......
Pleasae note that my writing skills are horrible ;3
Next matchup<=>match-up coming up ^3^

 

[Kataefi]

I think this one could be the one where everyone gathers and discusses all the matchups... and mine is like a matchup directory, so I'll just link everything to this thread and include summaries of how Zelda's supposed to win by paraphrasing the majority of stuff written here!

Sounds like a plan!

 

[RoyalBlood]

So i don't have to write right? >:D

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah you can! Just write how you've always been writing. They're a good read! I think the summaries in the other thread are just looking at very specific moves and how to counter them with Zelda. They're more specific whereas your summaries give an overall feel as to how the matchup plays out.