Zelda Matchup Anthology

[Miryafa]

Prynne, would you explain the acronyms you use in the OP before you use them? I see DED in the Roy box with no idea what it could be.

Anyway, someone asked me to post in this thread, so here goes.

My experience is based on playing competitive level Mario (Stoks), Luigi (Dyl), DK (Taint), Diddy (Taint), Captain Falcon (Dyl), Zelda (Irish), Shiek (Hona), Ganon (Taint, others), M2 (don't remember), Pikachu (Gunta), Squirtle (Dad), Ness (Hona), Ike (PlumOrchid), Marth (Hona), Roy (Ashen), Rob (Jitty), G&W (S4J), and Sonic (don't remember), and decent players with most of the rest of the cast, in Oklahoma. Up to now, most of my gameplay has been neutral with Din's Fire, Nayru's, and LK, getting combos in when I can, and going for gimps with LK or dair. I'm just starting to learn the Xeldorno combo and auto-cancelling Nayru's.

Thread talking about Luigi.

As Zelda, I struggle against anyone with longer reach than her, because her approaches are bad/nonexistent. I usually ban WW and Yoshi's Story against them. They include:

• Ganondorf (but note a Ganon with platforms is spookier than one without, so Final D improves it somewhat). I don't mind playing him on Yoshi's Story on a good day, but never on WarioWare. His fair and bair beat Zelda's fair and bair, and if he just camps with them, it's a bad time. On the plus side, he is combo food.
  
• Ike (his nair beats out most things I can do, and he can combo into an off-stage fair for the KO against me)
  
• Ivysaur (whose disjoints beat Zelda in every direction, including from above, so I can't even juggle her)
  
• DDD (my experience here is limited, but he can gimp even Zelda's recovery)
• Jigglypuff (whose bair reaches farther than Zelda's, and who has greater aerial mobility to weave in and out of fairs, and for the same reason is very hard to land an up-smash on. Similarly she can just jump over Nayru's and fair me in the face)
• ZSS (maybe? I've played one match against a competent Shokio and her reach and speed did a lot)

I also struggle against anyone too small to grab, and these characters tend to automatically avoid up-smash too. They include:

• Jigglypuff
• Squirtle (who can sometimes go through Din's fire, but the most effective option I've found is dash-attack and then juggle him to death, and use d-smash as a get-off-me card)
  
• Kirby (who can't be juggled because of his down-b, and who can Inhale LK. He can also gimp Zelda with aerial side-B if I'm not careful to drop below it)

My neutral matchups:

• Diddy. My games against Uncle Taint's Diddy seem to be stage-dependent. I win on Final Destination, Norfair, and I think FoD and Dreamland. I don't recall where he wins. Our last tournament match went to 7 seconds on Dreamland, with him ahead on percent and running away from me until I got an LK for the stock.
• M2 (in theory). He likes to short-hop teleport-forward into fair or nair, but my opponent told me it's easy to read (whenever he short hops, or whenever he's at the correct horizontal spacing, assume it's that) and counter with LK. I started doing that and it worked pretty well. Note Shadow Claw (M2's fair) is forward and slightly below him, so doing a high LK is better.
• G&W (I think, haven't played enough matches to know). Yes he can bucket Din's Fire, but I can usually explode it with side-b before he can put it in the bucket, and it leaves him vulnerable to try. Zelda can jump away from his up-tilt/smash up-b combos, and I've done fine against his grabs by always assuming he's doing down-throw and inputting a tech-roll. He can't be juggled because his dair has longer range than Zelda's uair, but if he's off-stage his recovery is usually predictable (down-b, down-b, up-b, jump). S4J will always up-B before jumping because G&W can do anything out of up-B, so assume he'll do that and jump away from his combos after getting hit up in the air. A bad thing for Zelda is that (1) both G&W's fair and bair are disjointed and can beat out Zelda's fair and bair because they're faster, (2) G&W's best move is down-tilt, and he can crouch-cancel down-tilt Zelda for days, and even take a stock with it.

My good matchups:

• ROB. I lost to Jitty in the first match I ever played against a ROB, but just barely. The game I won was on FoD. Jitty likes to use down-throw into up-air, and Zelda can jump away from that. He also likes to laser off-stage opponents for the gimp/kill, and I can reflect those with Nayru's and still recover. One problem is that he can do some weird short-hop side-b fair, and then move back after the fair, so that it's nonpunishable and baits out a whiffed move.

Misc:

• Gnosis said Mario is safe all the time, but when we played a game, I stopped his approaches with Nayru's and punished him. I didn't win the game, but meh.
• Sethlon said his spacing for attacks is the same as Zelda's LK, so it's tougher to approach. However, his approach is completely different from Ashen, who loves to use L-cancelled dair-into-up-tilt, and against whom I'm about 50-50
  
• Yoshi's grounded down-B is lethal and comes out very quickly =/
• Bowser has a lethal true combo on Zelda at I think 40-100% with grab, up-throw (or is it side-B throw?), down-b-cancelled jump into up-air
• I auto-ban small stages against Lucario like Green Hill Zone and WarioWare, because it gives me less space to escape from his close-range combos.
  
• Nayru's Love shuts down most of Lucario's approaches, but he can bypass it by spending an aura on Down-B cancelled into up-tilt (and I think down-forward-tilt)

 

[noobftw]

Prynne, would you explain the acronyms you use in the OP before you use them? I see DED in the Roy box with no idea what it could be.

Anyway, someone asked me to post in this thread, so here goes.

My experience is based on playing competitive level Mario (Stoks), Luigi (Dyl), DK (Taint), Diddy (Taint), Captain Falcon (Dyl), Zelda (Irish), Shiek (Hona), Ganon (Taint, others), M2 (don't remember), Pikachu (Gunta), Squirtle (Dad), Ness (Hona), Ike (PlumOrchid), Marth (Hona), Roy (Ashen), Rob (Jitty), G&W (S4J), and Sonic (don't remember), and decent players with most of the rest of the cast, in Oklahoma. Up to now, most of my gameplay has been neutral with Din's Fire, Nayru's, and LK, getting combos in when I can, and going for gimps with LK or dair. I'm just starting to learn the Xeldorno combo and auto-cancelling Nayru's.

Thread talking about Luigi.

As Zelda, I struggle against anyone with longer reach than her, because her approaches are bad/nonexistent. I usually ban WW and Yoshi's Story against them. They include:

• Ganondorf (but note a Ganon with platforms is spookier than one without, so Final D improves it somewhat). I don't mind playing him on Yoshi's Story on a good day, but never on WarioWare. His fair and bair beat Zelda's fair and bair, and if he just camps with them, it's a bad time. On the plus side, he is combo food.
  
• Ike (his nair beats out most things I can do, and he can combo into an off-stage fair for the KO against me)
  
• Ivysaur (whose disjoints beat Zelda in every direction, including from above, so I can't even juggle her)
  
• DDD (my experience here is limited, but he can gimp even Zelda's recovery)
• Jigglypuff (whose bair reaches farther than Zelda's, and who has greater aerial mobility to weave in and out of fairs, and for the same reason is very hard to land an up-smash on. Similarly she can just jump over Nayru's and fair me in the face)
• ZSS (maybe? I've played one match against a competent Shokio and her reach and speed did a lot)

I also struggle against anyone too small to grab, and these characters tend to automatically avoid up-smash too. They include:

• Jigglypuff
• Squirtle (who can sometimes go through Din's fire, but the most effective option I've found is dash-attack and then juggle him to death, and use d-smash as a get-off-me card)
  
• Kirby (who can't be juggled because of his down-b, and who can Inhale LK. He can also gimp Zelda with aerial side-B if I'm not careful to drop below it)

My neutral matchups:

• Diddy. My games against Uncle Taint's Diddy seem to be stage-dependent. I win on Final Destination, Norfair, and I think FoD and Dreamland. I don't recall where he wins. Our last tournament match went to 7 seconds on Dreamland, with him ahead on percent and running away from me until I got an LK for the stock.
• M2 (in theory). He likes to short-hop teleport-forward into fair or nair, but my opponent told me it's easy to read (whenever he short hops, or whenever he's at the correct horizontal spacing, assume it's that) and counter with LK. I started doing that and it worked pretty well. Note Shadow Claw (M2's fair) is forward and slightly below him, so doing a high LK is better.
• G&W (I think, haven't played enough matches to know). Yes he can bucket Din's Fire, but I can usually explode it with side-b before he can put it in the bucket, and it leaves him vulnerable to try. Zelda can jump away from his up-tilt/smash up-b combos, and I've done fine against his grabs by always assuming he's doing down-throw and inputting a tech-roll. He can't be juggled because his dair has longer range than Zelda's uair, but if he's off-stage his recovery is usually predictable (down-b, down-b, up-b, jump). S4J will always up-B before jumping because G&W can do anything out of up-B, so assume he'll do that and jump away from his combos after getting hit up in the air. A bad thing for Zelda is that (1) both G&W's fair and bair are disjointed and can beat out Zelda's fair and bair because they're faster, (2) G&W's best move is down-tilt, and he can crouch-cancel down-tilt Zelda for days, and even take a stock with it.

My good matchups:

• ROB. I lost to Jitty in the first match I ever played against a ROB, but just barely. The game I won was on FoD. Jitty likes to use down-throw into up-air, and Zelda can jump away from that. He also likes to laser off-stage opponents for the gimp/kill, and I can reflect those with Nayru's and still recover. One problem is that he can do some weird short-hop side-b fair, and then move back after the fair, so that it's nonpunishable and baits out a whiffed move.

Misc:

• Gnosis said Mario is safe all the time, but when we played a game, I stopped his approaches with Nayru's and punished him. I didn't win the game, but meh.
• Sethlon said his spacing for attacks is the same as Zelda's LK, so it's tougher to approach. However, his approach is completely different from Ashen, who loves to use L-cancelled dair-into-up-tilt, and against whom I'm about 50-50
  
• Yoshi's grounded down-B is lethal and comes out very quickly =/
• Bowser has a lethal true combo on Zelda at I think 40-100% with grab, up-throw (or is it side-B throw?), down-b-cancelled jump into up-air
• I auto-ban small stages against Lucario like Green Hill Zone and WarioWare, because it gives me less space to escape from his close-range combos.
  
• Nayru's Love shuts down most of Lucario's approaches, but he can bypass it by spending an aura on Down-B cancelled into up-tilt (and I think down-forward-tilt)

DED is double edge dance or roy's side b.
Also Zelda has a lot of bad match ups. I have no clue on ganon or DDD though. The ones I have played I have won against. DDD can gimp you ish but you can avoid it and since he is such a big target it's easy to bair wall him.
In terms of short characters. Kirby is whoever approaches will lose although I give kirby the slight advantage. Squritle has the definite advantage. And Jigglypuff is iffy really.

 

[BlackMamba]

Anyone have opinions on Zelda vs ROB or Zelda vs Sonic before I go in on my thoughts/experience?

I've got a bit to say about Zelda v Rob, and a couple videos as well. I have a video of me going mostly even against in a set and there a few other Rob v Zelda vids floating around

 

[WhiteCrow]

Can I take Diddy Kong?

 

[Getsafe]

I wouldn't mind trying to cover Bowser and GnW

 

[Prynne]

Since people have just sort of been posting MU writeups, I don't think it's so mandatory to ask beforehand. Either way, @ WhiteCrow Diddy Sounds good, and @ Getsafe , you're clear to do Bowser and GnW.

 

[Downdraft]

Spoiler

Favorability
2

Good Stages
Battlefield
Delfino's Secret
Dreamland
Yoshi's Island?
Norfair?

Bad Stages
With the possible exception of Distant Planet, all other stages on the bottom 2 rows do not favor Zelda in this matchup for reasons listed below.
1. Mewtwo can carry you off the side with b-air for the kill.
2. Mewtwo's U-throw negates any advantages Zelda may have on the stage.
3. Mewtwo's extended hover combos are harder to DI or tech due to large open spaces and few platforms.

General Strategy
The matchup banks on your ability to punish OOS, read his teleports, and safely approach. Mewtwo's smashes, dash attack, and a few of his aerials are high committal, and he often has many options for teleporting down to the stage or platforms when available. Just like any other matchup, punish unsafe attacks on shield with lightning kicks and U-smash. If you can get a read on where he's teleporting, U-tilt is a great option to deter him from teleporting in for the attack. U-tilt also kills Mewtwo at higher percents, so a smart Mewtwo would become less aggressive to force Zelda on the offensive. B-reversed Nayru's are okay to use while approaching, but not to actually attack unless they're after a lightning kick. I have no experience with this matchup in 3.5 or 3.6 Beta, but I'd imagine that telecancelling should be used for defense and the neutral rather than offense unless you're B-reversing teleport behind Mewtwo, which still may be too risky. Din's is decent in the matchup for combos, but serves no function that's special to this matchup.

Things to watch out for
1. Uthrow and F-air will be Mewtwo's primary methods of killing Zelda. Both moves kill off the top, which are reasons why you should be wary of stages where he can easily carry Zelda to the top or get an early U-throw kill.
2. Like Zelda, some of his more powerful attacks require a hard read to use. Be wary of D-smash and F-smash if he's edgeguarding from the stage. Watch out for b-air chains and d-air if he manages to get you near the ledge aerially.

Remember that the matchup is relatively simple and is made difficult due to his disjoint, ability to KO Zelda off-the-top easily, and ability to combo Zelda thanks to hover. Mewtwo is a little less floaty than Zelda and heavier too with a large body, so he's a little easier to combo than Zelda. All in all, this isn't a matchup Zelda should fret over too much. She has the tools to compete in this matchup decently.

Videos
Frozen v. Zhime
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peQxv0joZis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=241gfeE9GOU

Spoiler

Favorability
4

Stages
The matchup favors Zelda to the extent that stage selection is significantly overshadowed by player skill. Yoshi's Island is generally a bad stage for Zelda, so I'd ban that and Castle Siege. Fatties like small stages, but Zelda can hold her own versus DK on Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, WarioWare, and Green Hill Zone.

General Strategy
DK arguably has inferior approach options than Zelda. F-tilt, U-tilt, U-smash, and Ribbon are good combo starters at 0. Once you've got him to about 30-40 damage, you can juggle him with U-air, U-throw, U-smash, and N-air and finish with sweetspotted D-air or U-air. Save lightning kicks unless it's your only option or will put him off stage for an edgeguarding situation. DK hates Din's, and the manual detonation is actually a good tool to harass him. He has rather limited punishes on Zelda, but they are dangerous.

Things to look out for
DK's forward throw allows him to throw characters up, forwards, or backwards. Anticipate the direction. If he throws you up, prepare for a punch or U-air. If he throws you forward off stage, prepare for F-air. If he throws you backwards, prepare for B-air. As a fatty, DK has power. His throw game and speed are what distinguish him from the other fatties. Don't underestimate your opponent, but if you play the matchup correctly, you should be able to win comfortably assuming equal skill.

Video
Face v. POOB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc6vuUqnP_0

Spoiler

Favorability
3

Good Stages
Battlefield
Delfino's Secret
Dreamland
Norfair
Distant Planet
WarioWare?

Bad Stages
I'm inexperienced with this matchup, but in theory, I'd imagine that Jigglypuff would enjoy stages with close side blast zones, so avoid those stages with the possible exception of WarioWare. Jigglypuff is good at edgeguarding and won't have trouble carrying Zelda offstage with Pound and B-air. Also, she can harrass Zelda with U-air so don't pick stages where it'd be hard to recover to or down to the stage.

General Strategy
Jigglypuff wants to land Rest on you or carry you off stage. Both are dangerous situations. However, if Rest ends the stock, you may be able to punish Jigglypuff upon respawn depending on your position. Jigglypuff is the lightest and floatiest character in the game. Don't attempt more than 1 or 2 hits in a row on her. Ideally, you'd bait Jigglypuff into approaching and punish mistakes with kicks. She'll die earlier than any other character to kicks and U-tilt, but you may opt to space kicks all day. Even if they grow stale, they'll still kill if hit on the first frame since Puff is super light. The matchup requires great patience and will likely bore you. Don't be aggressive.

Things to look out for
Avoid Rest, Rollout, and being put offstage on small stages, and you're in good shape. Her kill options are limited besides the ones listed, and she dies ridiculously early if you just wait her out.

Videos
None.

@ BlackMamba Would you still like to handle the ROB matchup?
@ WhiteCrow Are you still interested in contributing the Diddy matchup?
@ Getsafe Are you still up for doing the G&W matchup?

Let's get this finished together everyone! It's been put off for too long, and we're still missing important matchups such as the Marth matchup. Please don't leave it to @ Prynne alone to complete this thread. The finished product benefits all but perhaps Zhime. There are roughly 15-20 Project M Zeldas that occasionally post here. If we each contributed one matchup after this post, then this thread would be nearly complete.

 

[Prynne]

I'll update the OP hopefully by tomorrow. Thanks for your help, @ Downdraft

Anyone have anything to add or modify for these matchups?

 

[Getsafe]

Yeah I'll get started on G&W, I was waiting until after 3.6 to start writing and then I kinda forgot

Marth match up is down+b if you don't want to lose

 

[Downdraft]

Yeah I'll get started on G&W, I was waiting until after 3.6 to start writing and then I kinda forgot

Marth match up is down+b if you don't want to lose

In a tournament setting, one can't expect to just use Sheik without the practice if things aren't working with Zelda. Sheik gets comboed harder and is easier to edgeguard. If I'm playing against a competent Marth, then that's just unfortunate. The same could be said for several other matchups.

 

[Downdraft]

Spoiler

Favorability
3

Stages
TBD
I'm unfamiliar with the matchup. Ice Climbers are rare and didn't really exist in 3.5. Maybe 3.6 Beta will see interaction between good Ice Climbers and good Zeldas.

General Strategy
Separate the Ice Climbers then pick an Ice Climber to rack up damage on. Getting the Ice Climbers at significantly different percents will allow you to separate them easier and get Solo Ice Climber. Preferably, Popo has the higher damage, so you can take the stock. If you kill Nana, Popo is much weaker on his own. His Up-B has little vertical reach, so he can't recover if launched far out. He cannot infinite chaingrab Zelda. Ice Climbers have a heavy punish game and can rack up damage quickly on Zelda, but Zelda has good damage output herself. This is a matchup that you may just be able to feel out and play the general Zelda gameplan, which entails patience and punishing overcommitment. This is a matchup where Zelda does not have to be aggresive.

Things to look out for
Ice Climbers are known for chaingrabs and infinites, but I'm not sure if they have much of a grab game versus Zelda. Space your moves properly to avoid their hammer, which does more damage than the other hitboxes. Be wary of attacking shield since the other Ice Climber can counterattack. Remember that Ice Climbers can desync, so be careful attacking them when they're together and grounded since the other Ice Climber can interrupt a combo.

Videos
n/a

Spoiler

Favorability
2.25

Good Stages
Green Hill Zone
Battlefield
Fountain of Dreams
Final Destination
Norfair

Bad Stages
Yoshi's Island
Smashville
Pokémon Stadium 2
WarioWare
Distant Planet

General Strategy
Powershield the fireballs. LC Nayru's is terrible unless it's on hit. Mario can SH B-air OOS, grab OOS, and worse against LC Nayru's, so use it to bait approaches, retreat, and reflect fireballs at mid range or farther. Fireballs render dash dancing and wavedashing less effective, so jump, telecancel, and play momentum tricks with Nayru's to approach. Mario is more comboable than Zelda, but has good escape options, so become familiar with what followups you have which percents when following Mario into the air. Ideally, you could motivate Mario into approaching you then punishing mistakes with U-tilt and kicks.

Things to look out for
1. D-throw -> F-air: F-air kills Zelda off the top early and doesn't need setup. I'm not sure if the optimal DI for D-throw will prevent Mario from F-airing Zelda, but if possible just avoid situations that put you in positions to get F-aired and recognizes your opponents tendencies, so you can predict when they'll use it.
2. U-air juggles
3. Cape: The cape can end anything that isn't a true combo and punish kicks and Farore's that aren't sweetspotted. The cape can also lead into followup attacks. All in all, it can be more irritating than the fireballs since there is no benefit to baiting it out, and you should just avoid the move.
4. F-smash: This attack is a quick and powerful punish, so space properly.
5. Up-B: Similarly to Squirtle, this attack's hitboxes make it difficult to punish if you stand near the ledge. Additionally, the move has invincibility frames on startup.
6. His recovery: Mario can wall jump, rise with down-B, and use up-B along with his midair jump to recover from far out or below the stage. The down-B is probably your best opportunity to punish his recovery if you're in position.
7. B-air: He can carry off stage with this attack and punish LC Nayru's OOS with this attack. It has decent power.

Videos
Gallo v. Zhime
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN8L6IgqZr8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUQEGPAtEbQ

Spoiler

Favorability
3

Good Stages
Smashville
Battlefield
Delfino's Secret
Dreamland
Castle Siege
Norfair

Bad Stages
Yoshi's Island
Green Hill Zone
WarioWare
Distant Planet

General Strategy
IIRC, @Boiko has claimed that Ness loses to shields. He lives in Zhime's region and has experienced the matchup as evidenced by the video. Anyways, shield PK Fire and learn to SDI the attack. PK Fire is one of his numerous setups into attacks. Zelda can combo Ness harder than he can combo Zelda, but he has the tools to juggle her along with several kill options. Try to avoid being grabbed at high percents since B-throw is a kill throw. Learn to DI D-throw to avoid combos. Don't try trading D-air with his U-air. U-air can juggle and kills at later percents. SDI values for F-air aren't listed in his frame data thread, so you'll have to figure out how to avoid followups on that move.

Things to look out for
1. PK Flash: Ness will primarily use this in edgeguarding attempts to punish Farore's and force Zelda into double jumping or airdodging.
2. B-air: This is one of Ness's kill options. While it is slow on startup, it is still an option that Zelda must respect.
3. Kill potential: Ness has sweetspotted F-smash, sweetspotted B-air, B-throw, U-air at higher percents, D-air, and PK Flash for edgeguarding. Essentially, he's got good horizontal kill options and respectable vertical kill options, and you must be aware of the situations in which each would be optimal for Ness in order to avoid losing a stock.
4. N-air: The move is frame 4 and punishes overextension of combos.

Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDSrl6tukDM

 

[Prynne]

Spoiler

Bowser

Favorability
3


Good Stages
FD
Smashville
Dreamland
Norfair


Bad Stages
Warioware
Yoshi’s Island
Yoshi’s Story
Green Hill


This matchup can simply come down to “Room and Lack of platforms” = Good, and “platforms but no space and tiny blastzones” = Bad. Bowsers have incredible platform movement and an egregious amount of ledge invincibility to boot, so bear that in mind when and if you counterpick.


General Strategy

As said by @ Kaeldiar , Bowser loses to the Z button. You see that purple capsule-shaped button at the top of your controller? Press it to win.

In all honesty, “Just grab him” is a much harder feat to pull off than one would expect. Yes, Bowser is huge and slow, but his hitboxes are also huge, and come out much faster than you would ever want them to.

Your Neutral game should focus probably at least partially on telecancel mindgames. Din’s is always useful to have hanging around, but Bowser can power through it like tissue paper, so don’t rely on it too hard to poke with, and never ever ever throw one out if he’s a stone’s throw away from you. Spacing near Bowser is difficult, because although he can’t cover a lot of space quickly, his range is surprising at best, and will catch you the moment you let your guard down.

Honestly, a lot of our normals and aerials become sub-optimal in the neutral, since you’re constantly under threat of armor. I’m not saying not to use them, but a misused ground option that isn’t grab can lead to some unwarranted damage. Be careful with ftilt and Nayru’s especially, for they are fairly useful.

You should be looking for a grab, almost 100% of the time. Once you do that, do Zelda things. I find dthrow techchase fairly reliable. Fthrow kick from there is a DI trap.

Bowser gets trapped in your multihits very easily, so if you can, lead into an Usmash. From the ground, starting with Usmash alone may not help, as Bowser’s armor can protect him.

You may have some trouble killing him, as he can armor through the first hits of Usmash, and can crouch cancel kicks for quite a bit of time. He’ll probably have to be in the air to kill, at least at a reasonable percentage.

Edgeguarding is a bit difficult in this matchup. His Up B plows through Din’s, and you’ll get hit by hitboxes if you go for a dtilt or dsmash. There is a decent sized spot on the top of his body that’s exposed during his aerial upB, so exploit that with a Din’s or a down air.

If you’ve got a good 90-100% on him, try for the old Kick or Fsmash. Either one should do the job, and if it doesn’t, follow him into the abyss and edgeguard to the best of your ability.


Things to looks out for

Bowsers are known for their Platform Movement and utilization of ledge invincibility. On the average, it’s very difficult to tell when you can hit Bowser with a normal move that isn’t a grab.

1. SideB -> Uair
2. DownB to end false vertical combos
3. Armor armor armor. It’ll get you 9 times out of 10. Dash attack and Nair are fairly common and have much armor.



Attribution
Kaeldiar & Downdraft

EDIT: Sorry if I stole this from you @ Getsafe , if you have anything at all to add, please let me know. I'd love any help I can get.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Spoiler

Favorability
3

Good Stages
Smashville
Battlefield
Delfino's Secret
Dreamland
Castle Siege
Norfair

Bad Stages
Yoshi's Island
Green Hill Zone
WarioWare
Distant Planet

General Strategy
IIRC, @Boiko has claimed that Ness loses to shields. He lives in Zhime's region and has experienced the matchup as evidenced by the video. Anyways, shield PK Fire and learn to SDI the attack. PK Fire is one of his numerous setups into attacks. Zelda can combo Ness harder than he can combo Zelda, but he has the tools to juggle her along with several kill options. Try to avoid being grabbed at high percents since B-throw is a kill throw. Learn to DI D-throw to avoid combos. Don't try trading D-air with his U-air. U-air can juggle and kills at later percents. SDI values for F-air aren't listed in his frame data thread, so you'll have to figure out how to avoid followups on that move.

Things to look out for
1. PK Flash: Ness will primarily use this in edgeguarding attempts to punish Farore's and force Zelda into double jumping or airdodging.
2. B-air: This is one of Ness's kill options. While it is slow on startup, it is still an option that Zelda must respect.
3. Kill potential: Ness has sweetspotted F-smash, sweetspotted B-air, B-throw, U-air at higher percents, D-air, and PK Flash for edgeguarding. Essentially, he's got good horizontal kill options and respectable vertical kill options, and you must be aware of the situations in which each would be optimal for Ness in order to avoid losing a stock.
4. N-air: The move is frame 4 and punishes overextension of combos.

Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDSrl6tukDM

Another small point about Ness is that PK Flash can be reflected. If you Nayru's the explosion, it changes posession, even though it doesn't go anywhere. If you're about to get hit by it offstage and can't get away, trust the Goddess of Wisdom!

 

[Getsafe]

EDIT: Sorry if I stole this from you @ Getsafe , if you have anything at all to add, please let me know. I'd love any help I can get.

Nah man it's totally cool, I was obviously slacking haha

In a tournament setting, one can't expect to just use Sheik without the practice if things aren't working with Zelda. Sheik gets comboed harder and is easier to edgeguard. If I'm playing against a competent Marth, then that's just unfortunate. The same could be said for several other matchups.

Well of course that's only if you actually play shiek lol.

Shiek is at least close to even with Marth but Zelda is literally unwinnable if the Marth has any clue what they're doing. In neutral Marth can literally just stay close enough to not get hit by minimum range dins, yet still far enough away to counter any of our moves on reaction. Marth has to be pretty bad to lose that MU

 

[Magus420]

Marth vs Zelda is like 65:35ish imo with poopy melee Zelda (in v1.0/1.1 anyway. I usually avoid the character in 1.2), and unlike vs Sheik/CF in that game the Marth matchup is rather playable. I don't really have much experience in the matchup in PM, but being described as unwinnable sounds crazy to me as I can't imagine it somehow getting significantly worse of all things when she's more capable in general and is better equipped at getting in on his DD. His combos and throws on her aren't all that threatening if you DI and CC his stuff properly (there's little excuse not to be DIing out really with how floaty she is when not in a position you can be f-smashed) and aren't still lost getting down when up in the air against people without the nayru's option being there. If you do and avoid f-smash/u-tilt KO spacing at high damages when out of neutral (her amazing airdodge helps here, even if you end up getting punished by something else anyway) you can often live for quite a long time for more opportunities to get the hits on him you need.

If you're losing neutral so consistently that you're getting completely shut down like that in the matchup then that is a weakness to DDing that goes well beyond the actual character's difficulties with it and is a weakness of the player. Be trickier with your movement, kick/WL mixups, deep attacks (like extra far dash attack/kick and WLed moves), etc to disrupt his spacing, take stage from them if they aren't actually attacking enough when you aren't, bait or hit things with defensive jab/f-smash/kick, and attack where you think they will be moving to when you do attack. Also don't be afraid to play in and out of shield a bit more when closer up and in f-smash kill range if they look for those to take stocks sooner than usual. Sorry if the above advice is a bit vague and/or obvious and not very helpful.

 

[Prynne]

Look! 75% of the Marth writeup! Thanks @ Magus420 !

 

[ZGE]

Hey, how do you guys feel about Samus/how do you deal with her? I lost to a Samus this past weekend and may be playing a better one this weekend (Ripple) should I decide to go to said tournament. Overall I know why I lost (overcommitment and just wasn't expecting missiles for some reason until it was too late) but what advice would you guys have? @ Magus420 @ ATL4S @Vitriform

Edit: And yes, I read the Samus MU stuff but was wondering if we could go more in-depth.

 

[Downdraft]

Hey, how do you guys feel about Samus/how do you deal with her? I lost to a Samus this past weekend and may be playing a better one this weekend (Ripple) should I decide to go to said tournament. Overall I know why I lost (overcommitment and just wasn't expecting missiles for some reason until it was too late) but what advice would you guys have? @ Magus420 @ ATL4S @Vitriform

Edit: And yes, I read the Samus MU stuff but was wondering if we could go more in-depth.

You meant to tag @ 4tlas I'd tag @ Kaeldiar since he's in a strong region and has probably encountered a few strong Samus players since she's good. I myself have struggled with the matchup and am missing answers. I haven't played Project M competitively in 4 months, so I haven't been able to apply the matchup summary that I wrote yet.

Spoiler

Favorability
2.5

Good Stages
Battlefield
Delfino's Secret
Dreamland
Fountain of Dreams
Norfair

Bad Stages
Green Hill Zone
Smashville
Pokémon Stadium
Castle Siege
WarioWare
Yoshi's Island
Distant Planet

General Strategy
Learn to DI D-throw. It's a combo throw versus floaty characters. Don't give Pit enough space to comfortably DD or WD camp. He's got better ground mobility than Zelda and a glide that will allow him to close in quickly once he decides to commit to an action. You want to avoid stages with short side blast zones or wide open spaces that will allow Pit to execute uninterrupted aerial combos. Pit can juggle with U-air and carry you far off stage with F-air. Pit will use D-throw or D-air to start most combos, but be wary of D-tilt too. Arrows can continue his combos once he's gotten you off the stage so try and avoid falling below the level of the ledge, or you'll be shot with no means to defend yourself. Pit doesn't have reliable methods of killing aside from carrying opponents deep off the stage or B-air, but he can kill with the final hit of U-smash, the second hit of F-smash, the spike hitbox of D-tilt, and Up-B.

Things to Look out for
1. U-air -> Up-B: Pit can juggle with U-air into an Up-B. However, if he misses or doesn't get a clean hit, then you may be able to punish him while he's in helpless. The center of U-air can kill at higher percents so avoid being in a position where Pit either is or can be directly below you.
There's little you can do to control Pit's spacing, but it wouldn't hurt to visit his wiki page or debug mode to see the spacing required for Pit to do the most damage/knockback for each move.

Videos
This was the only 3.6 Beta I found on YouTube. It's not high level, but it's good enough to give you an idea of Pit's strengths and weaknesses but perhaps a bit misleading on how Zelda should approach the matchup.

 

[WhiteCrow]

I'm still working on Diddy Kong, I'm just trying to be thorough.

 

[ATL4S]

Hey, how do you guys feel about Samus/how do you deal with her? I lost to a Samus this past weekend and may be playing a better one this weekend (Ripple) should I decide to go to said tournament. Overall I know why I lost (overcommitment and just wasn't expecting missiles for some reason until it was too late) but what advice would you guys have? @ Magus420 @ ATL4S @Vitriform

Edit: And yes, I read the Samus MU stuff but was wondering if we could go more in-depth.

I'd need to know what exactly you were doing wrong, mid tier matchups can be hard because they are rarer. If you feel like you're getting dominated because you rush in I'd recommend forcing an approach, but just practice the matchup a little more and asses your opponent, remember: Play the Player!

 

[4tlas]

You meant to tag @ 4tlas

I'd need to know what exactly you were doing wrong, mid tier matchups can be hard because they are rarer. If you feel like you're getting dominated because you rush in I'd recommend forcing an approach, but just practice the matchup a little more and ***** your opponent, remember: Play the Player!

I dunno man. I feel like I just got snatched!

 

[ZGE]

Well, for one I couldn't deal with those dumb bombs when Samus was coming down. Two, I know I got baited into using Nayru's while offstage which in hindsight was a horrible idea. I took him to Battlefield too which probably wasn't my best decision either. But I felt like I had no room or time to throw Din's out and when I did, I couldn't get much off of it. Plus Samus is heavy and floaty. I also got beat a bunch by WD back -> fsmash. He didn't use ice beam at all.

http://www.twitch.tv/nextlevelstreaming/v/7483449?t=0h25m20s

The first match against him I went Snake -_- still almost won though. @ 4tlas @Vitriform @ Downdraft
@ Kaeldiar

 

[4tlas]

Well, for one I couldn't deal with those dumb bombs when Samus was coming down. Two, I know I got baited into using Nayru's while offstage which in hindsight was a horrible idea. I took him to Battlefield too which probably wasn't my best decision either. But I felt like I had no room or time to throw Din's out and when I did, I couldn't get much off of it. Plus Samus is heavy and floaty. I also got beat a bunch by WD back -> fsmash. He didn't use ice beam at all.

http://www.twitch.tv/nextlevelstreaming/v/7483449?t=0h25m20s

The first match against him I went Snake -_- still almost won though. @ 4tlas @Vitriform @ Downdraft
@ Kaeldiar

Oh so you WERE trying to tag me, lol. Now I feel like the body snatcher.

Your first stock was great. You were moving very well and your opponent was confused by the teleports. Once you missed one technical thing though, you sorta fell apart. I'm not sure if you were feeling sluggish that day or if you got flustered by messing something up, but you just started missing things after the first stock. If you were feeling sluggish and this isn't an example of your best play (I know that feeling man, I finally got a game on stream yesterday at the event I TO and I played AWFULLY, way worse than I ever do), then you should know that you were doing the proper thing to counter your opponent's play during your first stock. Once they start playing differently you may need to change up your plan too, but against that particular Samus player you were doing the right thing.

If you got flustered by missing one technical thing, then I suggest you tone down the tech or reduce your technical expectations of yourself in tournament. You clearly can play very very well when you're on point, but sometimes you just need to pick the easy options so you can't screw up. And if you still want to risk those sexy tech options, then don't feel bad if you miss one. Yeah, it wasn't your best play, but you can still win.

As for Samus-specific stuff, I don't get to play vs. Samus very much. You didn't have much trouble with the missiles this time, but 2 things I noticed you had trouble with were getting shield pressured and hitting Samus out of her bombs while she comes back down from a juggle. Your best option to get out of that shield pressure is probably to roll away, in all honesty. Alternatively, keep shielding until you can lightning kick out of shield. You might have the reaction time to spot dodge her tether grab, so you can probably afford to keep shielding. As for getting Samus out of her bombs, set a Dins underneath her, then approach. She will be forced to either dodge the Dins or let one of her bombs clank with it, which in either case means there isn't a bomb directly beneath her, and you can upair.

I think Battlefield was a fine pick, especially because of the way you used your teleports. I would recommend Yoshi's Story or WarioWare for this matchup, but if both were banned or not on the stagelist, then I think this was a good option. What other options did you have?

 

[ZGE]

Oh so you WERE trying to tag me, lol. Now I feel like the body snatcher.

Your first stock was great. You were moving very well and your opponent was confused by the teleports. Once you missed one technical thing though, you sorta fell apart. I'm not sure if you were feeling sluggish that day or if you got flustered by messing something up, but you just started missing things after the first stock. If you were feeling sluggish and this isn't an example of your best play (I know that feeling man, I finally got a game on stream yesterday at the event I TO and I played AWFULLY, way worse than I ever do), then you should know that you were doing the proper thing to counter your opponent's play during your first stock. Once they start playing differently you may need to change up your plan too, but against that particular Samus player you were doing the right thing.

If you got flustered by missing one technical thing, then I suggest you tone down the tech or reduce your technical expectations of yourself in tournament. You clearly can play very very well when you're on point, but sometimes you just need to pick the easy options so you can't screw up. And if you still want to risk those sexy tech options, then don't feel bad if you miss one. Yeah, it wasn't your best play, but you can still win.

As for Samus-specific stuff, I don't get to play vs. Samus very much. You didn't have much trouble with the missiles this time, but 2 things I noticed you had trouble with were getting shield pressured and hitting Samus out of her bombs while she comes back down from a juggle. Your best option to get out of that shield pressure is probably to roll away, in all honesty. Alternatively, keep shielding until you can lightning kick out of shield. You might have the reaction time to spot dodge her tether grab, so you can probably afford to keep shielding. As for getting Samus out of her bombs, set a Dins underneath her, then approach. She will be forced to either dodge the Dins or let one of her bombs clank with it, which in either case means there isn't a bomb directly beneath her, and you can upair.

I think Battlefield was a fine pick, especially because of the way you used your teleports. I would recommend Yoshi's Story or WarioWare for this matchup, but if both were banned or not on the stagelist, then I think this was a good option. What other options did you have?

Yoshi's wasn't legal and I'm not a fan of WarioWare when I'm Zelda, or small stages in general when I'm Zelda. Samus could easily missile camp on either of those as well. I think I also got slightly flustered when I reflected a missile back at him and he just shielded it. Could have maybe gotten in a grab or punish, but I would just sit there. but yeah I think I was mentally a little not there by this point. I had lost two sets of grand finals of 64 trying my best to represent Missouri, and had gotten knocked out of Melee getting 5th, plus I slept on this guy game 1 and was switching characters all day (Ike, Snake, Peach, Game and Watch, Ivy, and two matches I played as Zelda). Not the best day for me.

Edit: oh yeah, I caught on to his habit of wavelanding off of the bottom two platforms and nairing into center stage but didn't know what to do or how to counter it. Again, mentally I wasn't at my best.

 

[4tlas]

Yoshi's wasn't legal and I'm not a fan of WarioWare when I'm Zelda, or small stages in general when I'm Zelda. Samus could easily missile camp on either of those as well. I think I also got slightly flustered when I reflected a missile back at him and he just shielded it. Could have maybe gotten in a grab or punish, but I would just sit there. but yeah I think I was mentally a little not there by this point. I had lost two sets of grand finals of 64 trying my best to represent Missouri, and had gotten knocked out of Melee getting 5th, plus I slept on this guy game 1 and was switching characters all day (Ike, Snake, Peach, Game and Watch, Ivy, and two matches I played as Zelda). Not the best day for me.

Edit: oh yeah, I caught on to his habit of wavelanding off of the bottom two platforms and nairing into center stage but didn't know what to do or how to counter it. Again, mentally I wasn't at my best.

Due to land-cancelled Nayru's, Samus can't easily missile camp Zelda on any stage. I would suggest a small stage because you have less distance to traverse when approaching (so less opportunity to screw up), each time you win neutral will probably be a kill due to close blastzones, and Samus doesn't get to recover from stupid distances. If you don't like those stages then you don't like those stages, but I think those are your best options.

 

[ZGE]

Due to land-cancelled Nayru's, Samus can't easily missile camp Zelda on any stage. I would suggest a small stage because you have less distance to traverse when approaching (so less opportunity to screw up), each time you win neutral will probably be a kill due to close blastzones, and Samus doesn't get to recover from stupid distances. If you don't like those stages then you don't like those stages, but I think those are your best options.

How will winning neutral once mean a kill? I can get up smash to nair to kick/din's, or maybe f-tilt to up smash to up air and have her in a bad position, but at low percent I hardly see how that's a kill. It's harder to place a dins under a falling Samus right after an up air than right after nearly any other move unless I would be moving the opposite trajectory from where I send her.

I'm trying to grind out Zelda vs. cpu Samus on WarioWare right now just to get a feel for combos, and it doesn't appear that I can get too much. Maybe a good 40-50%, but for Zelda that's fairly low.

 

[4tlas]

How will winning neutral once mean a kill? I can get up smash to nair to kick/din's, or maybe f-tilt to up smash to up air and have her in a bad position, but at low percent I hardly see how that's a kill. It's harder to place a dins under a falling Samus right after an up air than right after nearly any other move unless I would be moving the opposite trajectory from where I send her.

I'm trying to grind out Zelda vs. cpu Samus on WarioWare right now just to get a feel for combos, and it doesn't appear that I can get too much. Maybe a good 40-50%, but for Zelda that's fairly low.

I would argue that you never return to "true" neutral against floaty characters on small stages unless you allow it, since there is nowhere for your opponent to retreat to. Each successive read will be easier because there is no space and thus no options for your opponent. Thus you will win "neutral" again and again until you get the kill.

As for the Dins, I think I wasn't clear enough. After you get her way up in the air and she is going to start coming down with bombs, jump to the side and put out a Dins. Then you can either run or teleport toward the Dins and use it to either zone Samus in a direction or cover yourself with the Dins as you come from beneath. I wish I could find a video of this, but I don't know if I've done it on stream in a long time and wouldn't know where to look.

I wouldn't worry about how much you get in one combo. Make your punish game as good as it can be and win neutral as much as possible, and you'll win. Either can make up for the other. And due to how floaty Samus is, you can probably get multiple combos off after winning one neutral just because she has a hard time returning to neutral.

 

[ZGE]

I would argue that you never return to "true" neutral against floaty characters on small stages unless you allow it, since there is nowhere for your opponent to retreat to. Each successive read will be easier because there is no space and thus no options for your opponent. Thus you will win "neutral" again and again until you get the kill.

As for the Dins, I think I wasn't clear enough. After you get her way up in the air and she is going to start coming down with bombs, jump to the side and put out a Dins. Then you can either run or teleport toward the Dins and use it to either zone Samus in a direction or cover yourself with the Dins as you come from beneath. I wish I could find a video of this, but I don't know if I've done it on stream in a long time and wouldn't know where to look.

I wouldn't worry about how much you get in one combo. Make your punish game as good as it can be and win neutral as much as possible, and you'll win. Either can make up for the other. And due to how floaty Samus is, you can probably get multiple combos off after winning one neutral just because she has a hard time returning to neutral.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LA10-DyWDTs

 

[ATL4S]

I dunno man. I feel like I just got snatched!

what? Did he mean to tag you?

 

[4tlas]

what? Did he mean to tag you?

I think so. This is the PM Zelda board. I don't know if you meant to be here since it seems like you're new.

Welcome, btw!

 

[ATL4S]

I think so. This is the PM Zelda board. I don't know if you meant to be here since it seems like you're new.

Welcome, btw!

Haha! I was kinda confused when I was randomly tagged!

 

[ZGE]

So I'm going to a tournament this weekend featuring some really good players. Don't wanna mention them by name but maybe by character choice:

Player 1:

Wario (main?)
Metaknight
Game and Watch
Donkey Kong

Player 2:

Falcon (main)
Ganondorf

Player 3:

Falcon (main?)
Falco
Diddy Kong

Player 4:

Snake (main)
Roy
Wolf
Ganondorf

Player 5:

Ganondorf (main)
Falcon
Roy?
Wolf?

Player 6:

Luigi (main)
Falcon

I figure I'm a long shot to win but I really am hoping to place top 4. I also have a Peach, Ike, Game and Watch, and kind of have a Bowser and am working on Falco.

I realize a lot of info is here already and I want to use Zelda as much as I can simply because I don't think many people are used to her. But... Any advice? Any really great matchups among those for Zelda? Any that I should consider switching for?

 

[4tlas]

I figure I'm a long shot to win but I really am hoping to place top 4. I also have a Peach, Ike, Game and Watch, and kind of have a Bowser and am working on Falco.

I realize a lot of info is here already and I want to use Zelda as much as I can simply because I don't think many people are used to her. But... Any advice? Any really great matchups among those for Zelda? Any that I should consider switching for?

Alright, here's my opinions on these matchups. Remember that playstyle for both you and your opponent makes a huge difference, so not only may other people not agree with my analysis, but my analysis may not even apply to you.

Wario (main?) - Even matchup. Wario likes to space in the air which means LIGHTNING KICK. If they start doing sideB's (Zelda's bane) place a Dins in the jump-zone and punish when they either jump into it or lose momentum under it.
Metaknight - Good for Zelda, but not as good as 3.02. Metaknight can't clank Dins, but he's really fast. Farore's boost out of his combos ASAP or you're getting juggled into a death. Abuse Dins as a "safe zone" since he can't clank it.
Game and Watch - Bad for Zelda. Can't outrange him and Dins gets double absorbed by bucket for insta-kills. Best you can do is mix up your LK timing to get him to jump first and throw out his fair/bair. If you play Sheik, that's a better matchup, but she gets combo'd to all hell. Peach/Ike/G&W are better for you to play as, Bowser/Falco get bodied even harder than Zelda/Sheik.
Donkey Kong - Good for Zelda. He outspeeds and outranges you, but not at the same time. He also is probably used to grab = kill but that doesn't work on Zelda. His big body is going to get destroyed by multihits and sweetspots, but all aerial trades will result in him regaining stage control before you. Stay on the ground until the last possible second when he would grab you.

Player 2:

Falcon (main) - Baaaaad matchup for Zelda, but fortunately most Falcon's don't know it very well. If they don't, BODY them. They have to approach someday, so just wait and put up a jab as a wall when they jump in the air towards you. If the dashdance forever, you have 3 options. 1) Put out a Dins if they dashdance decently far, but do it during the dash-away half of the dashdance. 2) Teleport if they are reeeeally far, but only after putting out a Dins. 3) Foxtrot/wavedash towards Falcon, mixing up grabs (if he shields), uptilt (if he jumps above for the stomp), ftilt (if he goes for the grab on you), dtilt (if he goes for nair/bair), and jab (a weaker catch-all). He should never make it back to the stage, due to dtilt, dsmash, LK, and Dins. Put Dins low and LK him when he goes high, put Dins high then edgehog into LK, put Dins low then dtilt and dsmash his non-sweetspot ledge recovery, whatever. Easy mode.
Ganondorf - Good for Zelda. Same edgeguard as vs Falcon. Pick a stage with less platforms so you have better movement. Outspace him all day with LK and Dins and watch him cry.

Player 3:

Falcon (main?) - Read above.
Falco - Bad matchup for Zelda, but most Falcos play it wrong like Falcon. They should laser you forever and laugh as you can't approach, but most laser then think they can go in. Just Nayru's when they arrive, teleport or techchase after them, force them into a no-laser corner, then body them. They should never make it back to the stage.
Diddy Kong - Bad matchup for Zelda now that she can't pick up bananas out of teleport, but close to even. You can still reflect bananas and control space with Dins. I like to edgeguard by putting Dins on the barrel charge or in front of him. He's not exactly combo food, but its good enough.

Player 4:

Snake (main) - Great for Zelda, but not as good since they buffed the **** out of him in 3.6. Zelda essentially removes Snake's upsmash, dsmash, and B button. You can reflect grenades, tranq, and the upsmash mortar. You can blow up dsmash with Dins or teleport (just tele past it, it will explode during your tele lol). You can blow up grenades in his hand with accidental Dins stuff. You will be in the air a lot by accident, so tranq is useless. Even if he tranqs to cover your tele options, just wait to reappear past it. Finally, C4 falls off when you transform, so practice your transform glitches and Sheik play a little. He's also the perfect size (tall and thin) to get hit by all the multihits and sweetspots, and a great weight for combos. Cipher is a pain in the ass due to OOS frame advantage, but as a recovery it isn't too bad. Just put out a Dins at the lip of the ledge and dtilt or dsmash him when he hits it and pops up into your face.
Roy - Bad for Zelda. Marth but he doesn't need to tip to kill you horribly. If they take to the air you can wreck them. If they stay on the ground, harass with Dins and teleport away until you have enough damage on him to CC -> dtilt -> w/e.
Wolf - Dunno, seems slightly bad for Zelda. Still all the great stuff of Fox minus sex kick aerials that make you cry yourself to sleep at night. I've never had a problem with a Wolf, but I imagine its slightly bad for Zelda. All that vs. Fox practice pays off though, because you can full to death him every time you touch him.
Ganondorf - See above.

Player 5:

Ganondorf (main) - See above.
Falcon - See above.
Roy? - See above.
Wolf? - See above.

Player 6:

Luigi (main) - Slightly good for Zelda. He has to approach someday, and his approach has just enough cooldown that you can stuff it with whichever multihit you like. Much like Falcon, just jab each time you see the start of his wavedash and you should be able to stuff anything he has. If he shoots a fireball first, either reflect it with land-cancelled Nayrus (so he has to put out an early hitbox to clank while approaching, and you can stuff that with a dsmash or shield-grab, depending on what it is, jab or dsmash respectfully) or you can jump over the fireball really high (Luigi's unable to follow you into the air without getting LK'd because his aerial mobility is ass) and throw out a Dins. Don't expect to get combos on him, instead use each hit to take a good position for his "return to neutral". So place a new Dins, get underneath him for upairs, or teleport mixup between upairs and LKs as he falls down to the stage. If he ever uses downB to approach, either dodge with Nayru's or CC into dtilt dsmash if he has more percent (so you don't get nair'd for dtilting him, in which case just dsmash). Put out a Dins to force him to recover high if you can, then its an easy ledge invuln -> bair or RAR DJ bair if he's higher. Anytime you see a misfire, panic Nayru's does the trick and generates the hype!
Falcon - See above.


Thats what I've got. Some general advice for when you don't know a MU: run/tele away, place Dins, watch what they do. You should be able to detect their patterns. Wreck them. When they switch it up (or maybe even if they don't), switch it up. Sometimes you want to tele like crazy, sometimes you want to camp with Dins, sometimes you want to use Dins as an offensive base of operations, sometimes you want to get retreating bairs with mixup spacing, sometimes you want to get advancing fairs with mixup spacing, and sometimes you just want to stand still and wait for them to come to you. Mix it up between these styles, and you'll be the very best like noone ever was.

 

[ATL4S]

Alright, here's my opinions on these matchups. Remember that playstyle for both you and your opponent makes a huge difference, so not only may other people not agree with my analysis, but my analysis may not even apply to you.

Wario (main?) - Even matchup. Wario likes to space in the air which means LIGHTNING KICK. If they start doing sideB's (Zelda's bane) place a Dins in the jump-zone and punish when they either jump into it or lose momentum under it.
Metaknight - Good for Zelda, but not as good as 3.02. Metaknight can't clank Dins, but he's really fast. Farore's boost out of his combos ASAP or you're getting juggled into a death. Abuse Dins as a "safe zone" since he can't clank it.
Game and Watch - Bad for Zelda. Can't outrange him and Dins gets double absorbed by bucket for insta-kills. Best you can do is mix up your LK timing to get him to jump first and throw out his fair/bair. If you play Sheik, that's a better matchup, but she gets combo'd to all hell. Peach/Ike/G&W are better for you to play as, Bowser/Falco get bodied even harder than Zelda/Sheik.
Donkey Kong - Good for Zelda. He outspeeds and outranges you, but not at the same time. He also is probably used to grab = kill but that doesn't work on Zelda. His big body is going to get destroyed by multihits and sweetspots, but all aerial trades will result in him regaining stage control before you. Stay on the ground until the last possible second when he would grab you.

Player 2:

Falcon (main) - Baaaaad matchup for Zelda, but fortunately most Falcon's don't know it very well. If they don't, BODY them. They have to approach someday, so just wait and put up a jab as a wall when they jump in the air towards you. If the dashdance forever, you have 3 options. 1) Put out a Dins if they dashdance decently far, but do it during the dash-away half of the dashdance. 2) Teleport if they are reeeeally far, but only after putting out a Dins. 3) Foxtrot/wavedash towards Falcon, mixing up grabs (if he shields), uptilt (if he jumps above for the stomp), ftilt (if he goes for the grab on you), dtilt (if he goes for nair/bair), and jab (a weaker catch-all). He should never make it back to the stage, due to dtilt, dsmash, LK, and Dins. Put Dins low and LK him when he goes high, put Dins high then edgehog into LK, put Dins low then dtilt and dsmash his non-sweetspot ledge recovery, whatever. Easy mode.
Ganondorf - Good for Zelda. Same edgeguard as vs Falcon. Pick a stage with less platforms so you have better movement. Outspace him all day with LK and Dins and watch him cry.

Player 3:

Falcon (main?) - Read above.
Falco - Bad matchup for Zelda, but most Falcos play it wrong like Falcon. They should laser you forever and laugh as you can't approach, but most laser then think they can go in. Just Nayru's when they arrive, teleport or techchase after them, force them into a no-laser corner, then body them. They should never make it back to the stage.
Diddy Kong - Bad matchup for Zelda now that she can't pick up bananas out of teleport, but close to even. You can still reflect bananas and control space with Dins. I like to edgeguard by putting Dins on the barrel charge or in front of him. He's not exactly combo food, but its good enough.

Player 4:

Snake (main) - Great for Zelda, but not as good since they buffed the **** out of him in 3.6. Zelda essentially removes Snake's upsmash, dsmash, and B button. You can reflect grenades, tranq, and the upsmash mortar. You can blow up dsmash with Dins or teleport (just tele past it, it will explode during your tele lol). You can blow up grenades in his hand with accidental Dins stuff. You will be in the air a lot by accident, so tranq is useless. Even if he tranqs to cover your tele options, just wait to reappear past it. Finally, C4 falls off when you transform, so practice your transform glitches and Sheik play a little. He's also the perfect size (tall and thin) to get hit by all the multihits and sweetspots, and a great weight for combos. Cipher is a pain in the *** due to OOS frame advantage, but as a recovery it isn't too bad. Just put out a Dins at the lip of the ledge and dtilt or dsmash him when he hits it and pops up into your face.
Roy - Bad for Zelda. Marth but he doesn't need to tip to kill you horribly. If they take to the air you can wreck them. If they stay on the ground, harass with Dins and teleport away until you have enough damage on him to CC -> dtilt -> w/e.
Wolf - Dunno, seems slightly bad for Zelda. Still all the great stuff of Fox minus sex kick aerials that make you cry yourself to sleep at night. I've never had a problem with a Wolf, but I imagine its slightly bad for Zelda. All that vs. Fox practice pays off though, because you can full to death him every time you touch him.
Ganondorf - See above.

Player 5:

Ganondorf (main) - See above.
Falcon - See above.
Roy? - See above.
Wolf? - See above.

Player 6:

Luigi (main) - Slightly good for Zelda. He has to approach someday, and his approach has just enough cooldown that you can stuff it with whichever multihit you like. Much like Falcon, just jab each time you see the start of his wavedash and you should be able to stuff anything he has. If he shoots a fireball first, either reflect it with land-cancelled Nayrus (so he has to put out an early hitbox to clank while approaching, and you can stuff that with a dsmash or shield-grab, depending on what it is, jab or dsmash respectfully) or you can jump over the fireball really high (Luigi's unable to follow you into the air without getting LK'd because his aerial mobility is ***) and throw out a Dins. Don't expect to get combos on him, instead use each hit to take a good position for his "return to neutral". So place a new Dins, get underneath him for upairs, or teleport mixup between upairs and LKs as he falls down to the stage. If he ever uses downB to approach, either dodge with Nayru's or CC into dtilt dsmash if he has more percent (so you don't get nair'd for dtilting him, in which case just dsmash). Put out a Dins to force him to recover high if you can, then its an easy ledge invuln -> bair or RAR DJ bair if he's higher. Anytime you see a misfire, panic Nayru's does the trick and generates the hype!
Falcon - See above.


Thats what I've got. Some general advice for when you don't know a MU: run/tele away, place Dins, watch what they do. You should be able to detect their patterns. Wreck them. When they switch it up (or maybe even if they don't), switch it up. Sometimes you want to tele like crazy, sometimes you want to camp with Dins, sometimes you want to use Dins as an offensive base of operations, sometimes you want to get retreating bairs with mixup spacing, sometimes you want to get advancing fairs with mixup spacing, and sometimes you just want to stand still and wait for them to come to you. Mix it up between these styles, and you'll be the very best like noone ever was.

do you want me to change my name?

 

[4tlas]

do you want me to change my name?

Absolutely not! I only have this name instead of Atlas because someone else had that. We can all have the name we like! Also you need to pay money to change your name.

I also have no idea what that post you quoted has to do with it, lol.

 

[ZGE]

The first Falcon probably won't know the matchup although he's one of the best Falcons to play Smash (hint hint), the second one definitely will. I've played sets against the last four players I mentioned, losing many to 3, 0/2 against 4, 2/2 against 5, and 1/2 against 6.

And rofl panic Nayru's.

 

[ZGE]

Also why do you think Falco is a bad MU? If we get in on him he can get combo'd to death, laser camping won't work on Zelda, and if he starts trying to approach with dair we can utilt him out of it, plus his recovery is complete trash. Meanwhile he can do shield pressure stuff which is bad for Zelda and shine us off the top of smaller stages but that's about it. His pillar combos won't do nearly as much against us since we're so floaty, or at least he has way less margin of error because of that.

 

[4tlas]

Also why do you think Falco is a bad MU? If we get in on him he can get combo'd to death, laser camping won't work on Zelda, and if he starts trying to approach with dair we can utilt him out of it, plus his recovery is complete trash. Meanwhile he can do shield pressure stuff which is bad for Zelda and shine us off the top of smaller stages but that's about it. His pillar combos won't do nearly as much against us since we're so floaty, or at least he has way less margin of error because of that.

Why doesn't laser camping work on Zelda? And you can't uptilt him out of dair if you're also getting hit by a laser. His pillar combos also work just fine if not better because we don't get a change to tech but he still jumps high enough and falls fast enough to pillar us. Also even if he doesn't continue to combo he can juggle forever and win neutral again and again even if you somehow get back on the ground.

If you ever touch him, he's dead, sure. Much like vs. Fox, though, you should never ever touch him or he's doing it terribly wrong.

 

[ZGE]

Why doesn't laser camping work on Zelda? And you can't uptilt him out of dair if you're also getting hit by a laser. His pillar combos also work just fine if not better because we don't get a change to tech but he still jumps high enough and falls fast enough to pillar us. Also even if he doesn't continue to combo he can juggle forever and win neutral again and again even if you somehow get back on the ground.

If you ever touch him, he's dead, sure. Much like vs. Fox, though, you should never ever touch him or he's doing it terribly wrong.

Nayru's? What's Falco going to do to counter it, reflect it? If he does, he gets stuck in shine long enough for us to escape. If he's in the air trying to reflect a laser he's pretty much a sitting duck. He can rejump or just wait to land, neither of which seem to be great options for him.

Maybe I'm just missing something or not understanding something about him.

 

[4tlas]

Nayru's? What's Falco going to do to counter it, reflect it? If he does, he gets stuck in shine long enough for us to escape. If he's in the air trying to reflect a laser he's pretty much a sitting duck. He can rejump or just wait to land, neither of which seem to be great options for him.

Maybe I'm just missing something or not understanding something about him.

Its extremely difficult to hit him with his own lasers because he keeps jumping, and you're going to accidentally get hit with one inbetween your Nayru's and then BOOM no more free time to move.

No its not a particularly bad matchup, but I don't think its even. Falco's pretty gross. Fortunately they all play like idiots and go ham on you when they shouldn't.