Zelda Matchup Anthology

[noobftw]

I thought 3 was even o_o. I'd say the match up is around 60:40. But if 3 was that then oops LOL

Edit: Yeah I just checked the format and it said that 3 is practically even

 

[Downdraft]

I thought 3 was even o_o. I'd say the match up is around 60:40. But if 3 was that then oops LOL

Edit: Yeah I just checked the format and it said that 3 is practically even

Thanks, I forgot. I was under the impression that one took the favorability score and multiplied it by 20 to get the percentage of times Zelda would hypothetically win the matchup.

 

[Vitriform]

I'd second that notion; the matchup isn't particularly bad for Zelda, but it is still challenging.
At best, I'd give the matchup a 3 for 60:40.

Based on Prynne's scale in the first post, wouldn't a 3 correspond to a 50:50 matchup rather than a 60:40? If that's the case, then would a favorability rating of 3.5 not be appropriate?

EDIT: Whoops, didn't notice the earlier posts. Carry on.

 

[noobftw]

I'm actually having a hard time against marth and sheik. I know marth is a horrible match up but idk about sheik.
I'm waiting for people to write up stuff on them xD

 

[Downdraft]

I'm actually having a hard time against marth and sheik. I know marth is a horrible match up but idk about sheik.
I'm waiting for people to write up stuff on them xD

Aren't Marth and Sheik defensively oriented? That doesn't bode well for Zelda since she's counteroffensive and thrives on punishing mistakes. Patient play can beat Zelda since she's not good at going aggro and has limited offensive capabilities.

Zelda can combo Sheik pretty well, but Sheik can also combo Zelda hard. Pros for Zelda versus Sheik are her recovery, being harder to combo, and having greater KO potential. IMO, Cons for Zelda versus Sheik would center around the startup and duration of her ground attacks, having the poorer neutral game, and ultimately not having the speed to keep up with Sheik. I don't consider Sheik to be a bad matchup, and if the player has a competent Sheik, he or she can just transform to solve most if not all of their problems.

 

[noobftw]

Aren't Marth and Sheik defensively oriented? That doesn't bode well for Zelda since she's counteroffensive and thrives on punishing mistakes. Patient play can beat Zelda since she's not good at going aggro and has limited offensive capabilities.

Zelda can combo Sheik pretty well, but Sheik can also combo Zelda hard. Pros for Zelda versus Sheik are her recovery, being harder to combo, and having greater KO potential. IMO, Cons for Zelda versus Sheik would center around the startup and duration of her ground attacks, having the poorer neutral game, and ultimately not having the speed to keep up with Sheik. I don't consider Sheik to be a bad matchup, and if the player has a competent Sheik, he or she can just transform to solve most if not all of their problems.

Yeah dash dancing also just makes zelda have a bad match up against some characters. Marth's disjoints also make it so she can't get in and the fthrow and grab range make for a hard way to try to approach safely. Marth is forsure a bad match up.

Against sheik, although she can be edgeguarded, most of the ways to get the sheik off stage are either the lightning kicks or a throw. Both are very difficult against good sheik players since sheik's neutral massively better than zelda's. I find that sheik's very fast moves makes it super hard to counter hit in order to get your combos. Also din's placement for edgeguarding is hard against sheik. Her teleport end hit box beats out din's. But if it's the start then din's can interrupt her slightly. If you make it on stage sometimes it will mess up your own edgeguarding against sheik. I find the match up to only be like 55:45 in sheik's favor mostly.

 

[Downdraft]

Yeah dash dancing also just makes zelda have a bad match up against some characters. Marth's disjoints also make it so she can't get in and the fthrow and grab range make for a hard way to try to approach safely. Marth is forsure a bad match up.

Against sheik, although she can be edgeguarded, most of the ways to get the sheik off stage are either the lightning kicks or a throw. Both are very difficult against good sheik players since sheik's neutral massively better than zelda's. I find that sheik's very fast moves makes it super hard to counter hit in order to get your combos. Also din's placement for edgeguarding is hard against sheik. Her teleport end hit box beats out din's. But if it's the start then din's can interrupt her slightly. If you make it on stage sometimes it will mess up your own edgeguarding against sheik. I find the match up to only be like 55:45 in sheik's favor mostly.

With this brief discussion, you're halfway towards completing the Sheik matchup summary.

 

[noobftw]

With this brief discussion, you're halfway towards completing the Sheik matchup summary.

Well just need stages and DI stuff! I guess. Stages are pretty hard though. Big stages means sheik has more room to camp and play on platforms to pressure you. Plus she can sit on other side of the screen and run and throw needles. Small stages she just kills easier. So most of the stages are just neutral from playing it. Battlefield, warioware, and yoshis is what I'd usually try to ban though. GHZ is a 50/50.
In terms of DI and things to look out for. Back throw and down throw mix ups. Back throw behind DI'd towards sheik and down throw being DI'd away and down from sheik. Also looking out for ftilts and down throws or moves that pop you up. Don't jump because if you get hit by that fair you'll have a worse recovery. I'd avoid when sheik is in the air coming diagonally down from you. Fair and Nair are relatively safe since her jab is 1 frame and she can throw needles into a grab and various other things.

I can write up the sheik match up I guess more in depth. I just need more indepth knowledge on stages.

 

[BlackMamba]

Yeah falco wins, just because approaching him is a nightmare even with Naryu's and against a smart Falco your recovery options are very limited. He's also one of the few characters with counters to her anti-airs. However if Zelda gets a hit in it's a potential 0-death cuz of how well she combos space animals. Near 50/50 slightly in his favor IMO

 

[noobftw]

Yeah falco wins, just because approaching him is a nightmare even with Naryu's and against a smart Falco your recovery options are very limited. He's also one of the few characters with counters to her anti-airs. However if Zelda gets a hit in it's a potential 0-death cuz of how well she combos space animals. Near 50/50 slightly in his favor IMO

I actually think it's in zelda's favor just slightly. Falcos aren't like fox where they will just sit at the other side of the screen and shoot lasers all day and then can upsmash you at 80% for the early kill. They shoot lasers to control neutral and use them to get in. When they are near you, falcos go for shine, grab, nair, or dair to pressure the shield. Just buffer roll the laser before they come near you. If they are across the stage lasering you can slowly move forward and use naryus and play patiently. Falco players want to play aggro and go in. By they don't have the kill confirms of falcon's where they can get a down throw into knee. If you watch out for dair his killing potential is stunted.

Whenever I play a falco players they seem infuriated by the way I can easily just kill them or gimp them and they say it's super hard for falco. It might be because of the experience I have or that they don't know what's going on. But when I play I feel completely fine because I think zelda works the best as playing defensively and punishing people and edgeguarding.

Also I don't think recovery is limited against falco. Zelda's recovery has such a massive amount of tricks and things you can do with shorten. But the best options are the one where you recover above the stage. Recovering low you need to sweet spot or overshoot the edge. You can also protect yourself by placing a dins and things like that or recover onto platforms.

 

[BlackMamba]

I actually think it's in zelda's favor just slightly. Falcos aren't like fox where they will just sit at the other side of the screen and shoot lasers all day and then can upsmash you at 80% for the early kill. They shoot lasers to control neutral and use them to get in. When they are near you, falcos go for shine, grab, nair, or dair to pressure the shield. Just buffer roll the laser before they come near you. If they are across the stage lasering you can slowly move forward and use naryus and play patiently. Falco players want to play aggro and go in. By they don't have the kill confirms of falcon's where they can get a down throw into knee. If you watch out for dair his killing potential is stunted.

Whenever I play a falco players they seem infuriated by the way I can easily just kill them or gimp them and they say it's super hard for falco. It might be because of the experience I have or that they don't know what's going on. But when I play I feel completely fine because I think zelda works the best as playing defensively and punishing people and edgeguarding.

Also I don't think recovery is limited against falco. Zelda's recovery has such a massive amount of tricks and things you can do with shorten. But the best options are the one where you recover above the stage. Recovering low you need to sweet spot or overshoot the edge. You can also protect yourself by placing a dins and things like that or recover onto platforms.

Unless you are super far away from stage, you can be daired out of Farore's due to the startup and how much vertical mobility Falco has. He can also disrupt it with lasers, fair, and bair. So really the only truly safe recovery is from below or above when very far from the stage. And well sure if the Falco is aggressive and sloppy Zelda beats him. But optimally in this matchup, they'd be more patient, bait out Naryus, and get hit confirms off lasers. Zelda can get kills earlier tho for sure tho. I guess it's arguable who the matchup favors, but either way it's close. Moreso than Fox

 

[noobftw]

Fox is a horrible match up >_>. He can camp zelda. Kill zelda easily and has a way better recovery than falco. Plus waveshine upsmash is such an easy confirm with his pressure. I can't guarantee the kill with a combo like falco due to his shorter recovery.

Most of the time if I'm closer to the stage I don't try to Farore's because it gets beat a lot. I try to mix up a lot of things. Recovery low but place dins there. Or start the up b pretty far away from the stage. Place a din's in areas where you'll start your teleport or end your teleport. Or just jump and air dodge. I don't have much trouble against falco's lasers as much as being sniped from an arrow from link. Mostly cause I play the falco match up the most out of every match up.

Also I wouldn't naryu's close to falco when they are shooting lasers that's just asking for a punsih. Be at least half the stage away since they can nair far away. You want to be in a range from falco where you can punish and react to options he goes from laser. If you're across the stage naryu's and dash slowly to get into this range where you can punish him. It's usually around a good dash attack range where you have the most options for approaching. With either grab, dash attack, wavedash move, dtilt, downsmash.

But yeah in my head it's a very even match up I just think zelda has easier kill confirms than falco and most falcos you play are aggressive.

 

[Downdraft]

It has often been said that one should powershield Falco's lasers. Powershielding is a difficult yet useful mechanic that we don't really talk about here, but it needs to be incorporated into our games.

 

[noobftw]

Powershielding helps a lot against falco. Although sometimes it doesn't really hit them or stuff like that but it helps you approach and get into a place where falco can punish you.

Well since I discussed some of this with Downdraft I decided to write what I know on the match up. Any extra info would be great.


Character
Sheik

Favorability
2.5 (It's 45:55 for zelda)

Good Stages
Yoshi's Story
Warioware
GHZ
FoD

Bad Stages
Dreamland
Norfair

Black Mamba said that smaller stages benefit more since the back throw gets more utility in edgeguarding and your combos will send Sheik off easier and kill her faster than she can kill you. Also bigger stages is where sheik can camp you and throw needles so I put those as the good and bad stages. I personally think it's up to whether you're more comfortable in smaller or bigger stages since they benefit both characters in the same way.
General Strategy

Sheik's a defensive character that has a bunch of fast moves and is very hard to grab or punish in general. Defensive characters tend to be a harder match up for zelda since she excel at punish game. With both playing a punish game the one that has more committal moves (zelda) tends to lose the match up i.e. marth vs sheik is considered in sheik's favor mostly.

When approaching sheik it's going to be hard. Most of the moves you should use are well spaced lightning kicks, going in with only the edge of Naryu's hitting them, down tilt, or with a grab. Dash attack is pretty risky same as up smash. Fsmash on their shield is pretty good since there isn't a lot of end lag on the move. You can fsmash and proceed to run away or pressure their shield just watch out for your spacing. What I think is a great thing to use against sheik is throwing the dins near sheik's shield and then telecanceling on either side of her shield. Off of telecancel you should mostly grab since they are trying to block the din's near them. The back throw is what lets you edgeguard her super well. Dash dancing serves as a great way to approach or punish. For approaching dash dancing around din's or dash dance grab helps a lot. If you're more technical dash dance shield stop into retreating bair or fair is a great way to throw out a safe hit box and make the sheik's not get comfortable.

The way to punish sheik is mostly being at a range where they would rather dash attack then grab. Dash dance in this range with a din's out and they will definitely feel pressured to throw some move out. Dash attack is a great move for you to punish. You can upsmash oos or grab or a fade back lightning kick. Other ways of punishing her would be being under her and upsmashing or uptiliting. If she is 45 degrees above you in the air she has too many options so try to avoid those situations by moving away. Dsmash is usually safe on shield but sometimes you can punish it with a lightning kick oos. CC can limit a lot of her options, if she is approaching from the air CC upsmash and if it's from the ground CC grab or ftilt or dtilt which will get a lot of leverage in starting combos.
Most of sheik's moves are safe on shield so when you get a shield grab or a lightning kick to send her off stage take advantage of the edgeguard as much as you can.

Grab the ledge and refresh invincibility so she won't hit you with poofy poofs or try to go for the ledge. After you grab the ledge you punish the landing. Don't do standard get up or rolling from the ledge cause that takes a lot of time. Ledge dashing or just jumping onto the stage from the ledge is a lot faster and lets you do better follow ups. Most of the time you want to get another back throw into another edgeguard sitation or a lightning kick/fsmash that will kill. I usually wouldn't place the din's near the edge because it doesn't stop sheik's edgeguard. Place it near the middle of the stage so if she does make it back she will have a din's there to limit her stage control.

When you have the lead or need to control the pace of the game. Retreat with bairs and set out din's. Watch out for the grabs and you should be living for awhile. Recovering is a giant key to surviving against sheik so always mix it up and play smart.
Things to look out for
Dthrow and Bthrow- DI dthrow away and down to tech and DI Bthrow towards sheik. These are DI mix ups that if you mess up you can eat a nasty fair or bair and possibly die.
If a sheik is coming for a follow up from a ftilit or a down throw DO NOT JUMP. Sometimes you jump to get away but sheik's fair will eat up the jump and just limit your recovery back on the stage and sheik's edgeguard like monsters
When close to the stage try to go for the air dodge since fair is super fast and can hit you out of Farore's start up. Else be farther so she can't go out and hit you or throw a needle to interrupt you.
Needles are a pain. They are fast and you can't really reflect them with naryu's if they are fully charged.

Contributions
Black Mamba

 

[BlackMamba]

Powershielding helps a lot against falco. Although sometimes it doesn't really hit them or stuff like that but it helps you approach and get into a place where falco can punish you.

Well since I discussed some of this with Downdraft I decided to write what I know on the match up. Any extra info would be great.


Character
Sheik

Favorability
2.5 (It's 45:55 for zelda)

Good Stages
Dreamland
Norfair

Bad Stages
Warioware
Yoshi’s Melee

Stages against sheik doesn't really help vastly because sheik can play on almost any stage perfectly fine. I'd personally play at places where you feel the most comfortable edgeguarding. Sheik's love small side blastzones like zelda as well so stages that are usually advantageous for zelda are also good for sheik. I put dreamland and norfair down because they are the bigger stages and your recovery is a lot better than sheiks. (I'd love other people's input on the stages against sheik since leaving those two there seems pretty lacking)
General Strategy

Sheik's a defensive character that has a bunch of fast moves and is very hard to grab or punish in general. Defensive characters tend to be a harder match up for zelda since she excel at punish game. With both playing a punish game the one that has more committal moves (zelda) tends to lose the match up i.e. marth vs sheik is considered in sheik's favor mostly.

When approaching sheik it's going to be hard. Most of the moves you should use are well spaced lightning kicks, going in with only the edge of Naryu's hitting them, down tilt, or with a grab. Dash attack is pretty risky same as up smash. Fsmash on their shield is pretty good since there isn't a lot of end lag on the move. You can fsmash and proceed to run away or pressure their shield just watch out for your spacing. What I think is a great thing to use against sheik is throwing the dins near sheik's shield and then telecanceling on either side of her shield. Off of telecancel you should mostly grab since they are trying to block the din's near them. The back throw is what lets you edgeguard her super well.

The way to punish sheik is mostly being at a range where they would rather dash attack then grab. Dash attack is a great move for you to punish. You can upsmash oos or grab or a fade back lightning kick. Other ways of punishing her would be being under her and upsmashing or uptiliting. If she is 45 degrees above you in the air she has too many options so try to avoid those situations by moving away. Dsmash is usually safe on shield but sometimes you can punish it with a lightning kick oos.
Most of sheik's moves are safe on shield so when you get a shield grab or a lightning kick to send her off stage take advantage of the edgeguard as much as you can.

Grab the ledge and refresh invincibility so she won't hit you with poofy poofs or try to go for the ledge. After you grab the ledge you punish the landing. Don't do standard get up or rolling from the ledge cause that takes a lot of time. Ledge dashing or just jumping onto the stage from the ledge is a lot faster and lets you do better follow ups. Most of the time you want to get another back throw into another edgeguard sitation or a lightning kick/fsmash that will kill. I usually wouldn't place the din's near the edge because it doesn't stop sheik's edgeguard. Place it near the middle of the stage so if she does make it back she will have a din's there to limit her stage control.

Things to look out for
Dthrow and Bthrow- DI dthrow away and down to tech and DI Bthrow towards sheik. These are DI mix ups that if you mess up you can eat a nasty fair or bair and possibly die.
If a sheik is coming for a follow up from a ftilit or a down throw DO NOT JUMP. Sometimes you jump to get away but sheik's fair will eat up the jump and just limit your recovery back on the stage and sheik's edgeguard like monsters
Needles are a pain. They are fast and you can't really reflect them with naryu's if they are fully charged.

That's mostly all that I can think of. Any other opinions would be welcomed since I'm not amazing at this match up. I'll be down to write up other match ups as well.

I disagree with your stage assessments, I nearly always prefer playing this on a smaller stage since that makes it markably harder for the sheik to camp Zelda out. Sure sheik will kill earlier, but your kills will still be much more efficient, especially with backthrow's utility on YS and WW in particular. At ledge, fthrow to drop zone fair nearly always works. It's also worth noting that Sheik actually has even worse tools for escaping juggles than Zelda, since every antiair you have beats sheik's dair and nothing else can really reach below her. Sheik actually doesn't have many approach options, so this is one matchup where dashdancing actually has some utility for Zelda. She pretty much only has grab and dash attack to approach with, so bait it out and punish (WD back into grab or Fsmash do a great job of punishing this). If you have the stock or percentage advantage, it's actually perfectly viable to just start camping with shffl'd retreating bairs- she doesn't have a great answer to it. Also, when recovering either airdodge back onto stage if close enough or make sure you're far enough away from the sheik that they can't pursue you. She's hella fast and so is her fair, so Farore's startup can be quite painful. If she manages to get in close quarters or midrange, abuse your crouch cancel (her tilts are horrible against CC) and use an Ftilt or Dtilt to start a combo. Though sheik combos Zelda harder than most characters, Zelda still combos Sheik much harder. With good DI, smart recoveries, and smart option coverage, this matchup should be nearly even (slightly in sheik's favor due to superior camping ability, speed and range). All that said, nice assessment! I just had a lot to say since I play this matchup so often.

 

[noobftw]

I disagree with your stage assessments, I nearly always prefer playing this on a smaller stage since that makes it markably harder for the sheik to camp Zelda out. Sure sheik will kill earlier, but your kills will still be much more efficient, especially with backthrow's utility on YS and WW in particular. At ledge, fthrow to drop zone fair nearly always works. It's also worth noting that Sheik actually has even worse tools for escaping juggles than Zelda, since every antiair you have beats sheik's dair and nothing else can really reach below her. Sheik actually doesn't have many approach options, so this is one matchup where dashdancing actually has some utility for Zelda. She pretty much only has grab and dash attack to approach with, so bait it out and punish (WD back into grab or Fsmash do a great job of punishing this). If you have the stock or percentage advantage, it's actually perfectly viable to just start camping with shffl'd retreating bairs- she doesn't have a great answer to it. Also, when recovering either airdodge back onto stage if close enough or make sure you're far enough away from the sheik that they can't pursue you. She's hella fast and so is her fair, so Farore's startup can be quite painful. If she manages to get in close quarters or midrange, abuse your crouch cancel (her tilts are horrible against CC) and use an Ftilt or Dtilt to start a combo. Though sheik combos Zelda harder than most characters, Zelda still combos Sheik much harder. With good DI, smart recoveries, and smart option coverage, this matchup should be nearly even (slightly in sheik's favor due to superior camping ability, speed and range). All that said, nice assessment! I just had a lot to say since I play this matchup so often.

I love the input I'll change things real soon on it and give you credit as well! Also for sheik's approach I find whenever they come downward diagonally they have a lot things. nair, fair, or needles and when they land they have a 1 frame jab or a downsmash or grab. But I see what you mean after you explained it. With this information hopefully I do a lot better against other sheiks :D.

I'm willing to write up some more match ups as long as other people give their inputs as well to improve on it. I actually found this thread super useful when playing in tourney so I'd like it to be updated and finished xD

 

[BlackMamba]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKIhv8MiQ1Q
Here is more Zelda vs Sheik footage, courtesy of Zhime. Everyone NEEDS to watch this, the destruction (particularly in game 1) is breath-taking.

 

[Honor]

If you guys would be willing to give a bit of feedback on the Zelda Marth MU I'd appreciate it.

Zelda is a very counter-offensive character and whenever I play her I feel like she forces me to approach with Din's Fire and what's more, approach on her terms. Guess I'm looking for a better way to approach/not camped so bad.

 

[Downdraft]

If you guys would be willing to give a bit of feedback on the Zelda Marth MU I'd appreciate it.

Zelda is a very counter-offensive character and whenever I play her I feel like she forces me to approach with Din's Fire and what's more, approach on her terms. Guess I'm looking for a better way to approach/not camped so bad.

I never hear or heard of this Marth player, but he gave Zhime a pretty tough time.
That Marth isn't in the top players by character redux thread, and I don't see his name being mentioned.
Put it all together, and Marth is an incredibly challenging matchup for Zelda at a high level.
I don't what level you're at, but I'd advise you to play patiently and don't give Nayru's or Din's more respect than they deserve. The startup on Farore's off-stage is a free D-air for you, and you can continue your combos if you interrrupt the startup above stage. Marth is favored. I'd guess the matchup comes down to whom has the better resolve.

 

[Honor]

Thanks! This was definitely helpful!

 

[BlackMamba]

If you guys would be willing to give a bit of feedback on the Zelda Marth MU I'd appreciate it.

Zelda is a very counter-offensive character and whenever I play her I feel like she forces me to approach with Din's Fire and what's more, approach on her terms. Guess I'm looking for a better way to approach/not camped so bad.

It's actually one of her hardest matchups (just behind squirtle and falcon). You shouldn't let Din's force you to do anything, slowly approach with dash dancing while using ftilt, dtilt, jab or dash attack to clank the Din's. Wait for her to cast a Din's or use a neutral b unsafely, then punish hard. She has almost no answers to dtilt or fair IF you space well. Keep her just above you and harrass with uair. If you catch her with fair strings they can lead to a Dair with bad DI. Edgeguard with Nair and dair, and go for crouch canceled f smash if she teleports unsafely onto stage.

 

[noobftw]

I'd say marth match up is one of the most scary match ups for zelda like the other people have said. Swords men in general annoy zelda because of their disjoints.
Marth has the ability to stunt zelda's poor approaches with his sword and he has the power to control the pace of the game with dash dancing. Your dash dance grab or running in dtilt or rising fair give zelda plenty of annoying things to deal with. Dash dancing itself is great against zelda just because she has such a bad approach. If you see a dins simply clank it and it'll have to go back to zelda and then you put on pressure with just dash dancing till they throw another dins or try to approach you. Your grab range also helps win because when you're close to her a fthrow into tech chase or follow ups make zelda's feel even more pressured to mess up.
Once you juggle her it's okay if you end it as long as you maintain the stage control and keep her flying into the air. Getting down from teleports has 30 frames of landing lag so that's an easy punsih. Marth's floaty killer (side b ->up tilt) is a great thing to do if you want to end the stock. Zelda will live to around 140-160% but she won't be confirming hits or killing you much if you maintain stage control and dash dance. Besides the zhime vs. emoticon you won't see that many videos of high level zelda vs good marths imo. Watching how marth approaches peach (PPMD vs Armada) and keeps her in the air is a great way to learn to fight against floaties though.
Play the patient game. Don't throw fsmashes everywhere. And maintain stage control will let you have the winning advantage.

 

[Honor]

Played against a local Zelda for about 4 hours last night.

I played better against him than I had before (thx guys) but I felt like I was eating a LOT of bairs from him. My average death was around 90-100% while his was more like 130-140%.

Am I just not spacing well?

 

[ted dorosheff]

I can provide a MU for Zero Suit Samus, as she is my main and ive spent a lot of time playing against Zelda. My main sparring partner is a Zelda main, ive also played against several other zelda mains at local PM tourney's. None of the other zelda's were as difficult to play against as my main sparring partner.

So this is for Zero Suit Samus

Favorability

2

I'm going to say that against ZSS, Zelda is at a slight disadvantage. ZSS is very fast, has great recovery and a great combo game. However, after playing against several different Zelda mains and playing countless Zelda matches, this fight is in no way an easy win for ZSS.

Good Stages
Any small stage. Metal cavern, Yoshi's Island, Green hill zone, Wario Ware.
Bad Stages
Big Stages with platforms. Dreamland, Fountain of dreams, Lylat, Norfair

General Strategy
Keep space between you and ZSS. Start throwing out dins fire and landing them between you and her. Use Nayru's love to stuff any incoming attacks from neutral. Ground cancel as many Nayru's as possible. Grab OOS as often as possible and try to stay near the edge to setup a back-throw off-stage kill. When ZSS is recovering from off stage, put a dins ball right above the ledge. Also try baiting out a high recovery by placing a dins ball just before the ledge, but then meet ZSS in the air with nair. ZSS will try to get you in the air for aerial combos. Try to fair or bair her aerial pursuit. Sometimes placing a Dins ball on the other side of ZSS, and then recalling it can catch her off guard if she isnt expecting or paying attention to the return path hitbox. Great for getting you out of a combo.

Things to look out for
ZSS main throw will be dthrow, which bounces you upwards. DI up and away to get out of her nair range. Never let ZSS get below you, her up special if it hits you correctly will spike you to the ground. She can then meet you at the ground with a bair which usually kills at 100%+, try to tech this unusual spike if you are able to. ZSS's fsmash has a rear hitbox, watch out for that. Her dsmash is a paralyzer and it can be mashed to reduce duration. ZSS's dair is a head bouncer, kind of like falcon's, but much much weaker. It can be used to start a head bouncing juggle, which will eventually carry you to the ceiling if too many are strung together. DI to the side will make it hard to combo during the dair juggle, but its best to catch ZSS in an usmash before the dair juggle starts.

Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX3hT2mX5tQ Numerics (ZSS) vs Atlas (Zelda/Sheik)

Attribution
My own experience playing against Zelda, as a ZSS main

 

[Prynne]

I wIll be updating the OP soon. It's finals week for me, so expect a little bit before I get a moment to fully update it.

 

[Downdraft]

Played against a local Zelda for about 4 hours last night.

I played better against him than I had before (thx guys) but I felt like I was eating a LOT of bairs from him. My average death was around 90-100% while his was more like 130-140%.

Am I just not spacing well?

Were they mainly OOS b-airs? If so, then the answer to your question is yes. If she approached with b-airs and successfully landed a few, then I'd guess that you may have mistimed your punishes.

Also, how was she living that long? Even the best Zelda players get Ken comboed or tipper F-smashed to death.

 

[noobftw]

Were they mainly OOS b-airs? If so, then the answer to your question is yes. If she approached with b-airs and successfully landed a few, then I'd guess that you may have mistimed your punishes.

Also, how was she living that long? Even the best Zelda players get Ken comboed or tipper F-smashed to death.

From my experience I live to really long percents after the 80% mark. That's just marth's lack of good fast killing options at higher percents. Although if she is at higher percents the juggles of up air and getting to the ground is horrible >_>

Played against a local Zelda for about 4 hours last night.

I played better against him than I had before (thx guys) but I felt like I was eating a LOT of bairs from him. My average death was around 90-100% while his was more like 130-140%.

Am I just not spacing well?

If you're getting hit by bair that means he is a bit too comfortable in shield or he know what move that they can bair OOS. What I'd do is mix up the approach and confuse him. Also are you using rising fair? or SHFFL Fair? Rising fair should be a bit harder to punish with bair OOS. Also when comboing strings or fairs and fthrows watch out for the fair or bair to get out of the combo. It's pretty easy to notice and when you see that you're overextending try to make the last hit launch them in the air and maintain center stage and pressure their landing.
Zelda also has an easier time getting kills if you don't watch your movement and DI. But I think playing zelda helps you learn how to play marth a lot better. Due to learning spacing, dashdancing, and maintaining center stage. But if you're doing better that's great xD keep at it and you should be fine.

 

[Honor]

Were they mainly OOS b-airs? If so, then the answer to your question is yes. If she approached with b-airs and successfully landed a few, then I'd guess that you may have mistimed your punishes.

Also, how was she living that long? Even the best Zelda players get Ken comboed or tipper F-smashed to death.

In the vid you posted the Zelda was living to ungodly high percents. I know my spacing and combos need improving but getting a tippered Fsmash in there can be tough as hell.

 

[BlackMamba]

Played against a local Zelda for about 4 hours last night.

I played better against him than I had before (thx guys) but I felt like I was eating a LOT of bairs from him. My average death was around 90-100% while his was more like 130-140%.

Am I just not spacing well?

Work on crossing up their shield with fairs and bairs. That, and not letting her escape your fair strings. Her fair doesn't come out til frame 9, so she can't fair you out of a combo unless you mess up your juggle

 

[BlackMamba]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS8NpMoOgGw
Here's a set of ROB vs. Zelda, with me playing against Oracle. I'd say the fact that I dual main the two of them was definitely helpful during this set. Although I lost, I think I represented Zelda quite well, particularly in the second game (I'd like to imagine good things happening if I'd avoided that stage spike on my second to last stock lol). Anyway, glean from this what you will. I think ROB wins this matchup, btw.

 

[Downdraft]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-767#post-19184522

 

[Vitriform]

I have a few proposed small revisions to my previous analysis of the Link matchup. I will repost the entire analysis with the edits included for the sake of convenience (so it can just be copy/pasted). If I have time, I might also be able to do a Roy analysis. Feel free to look it over, throw it out, make changes, whatever.


Changes:

Favorability reduced to 2 from 2 - 2.5; I think this matchup is harder than I initially believed. In my opinion it's 40:60 at best (Link's favor) and possibly even as bad as 35:65 (depending on stage). Switching to Sheik can make the matchup easier (I believe it's in Sheik's favor).

Removed WarioWare from unfavorable stages. WarioWare isn't as bad as I thought before because the platform layout lets you largely bypass the threat of Spin Attack gimps unless you're recovering from very low. The short side blastzones can also be helpful in securing early kills.

Added Norfair to the unfavorable stage list. Link's circle camp game is absurdly strong here and the moving platforms sometimes make it difficult to chase with Telecancels. The platforms also tend to be high enough that you need to make a serious commitment (sometimes including a double jump) to shark Link through them with Uair or Nair, whereas Link can just bomb you from below and then harass you as you try to get down.

Mentioned AGT in Link's recovery options. The bombs can easily screw up your edgeguards and make it even more difficult to successfully kill him. He can recover from great distances while throwing out an exploding hitbox.

In Dthrow notes added Link's grab -> Dthrow -> jab -> regrab combo at low percents.

Made general changes in wording in a few places.


Favorability
2

Good Stages
Dreamland
Fountain of Dreams
Green Hill Zone

Bad Stages
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2
Final Destination
Yoshi’s Island
Yoshi’s Story* (not as unfavorable)

Link can KO you off the top rather easily, and he does not die quickly due to his weight, so avoid stages with small top and large side blastzones. Norfair is one of your worst stages in this matchup because its layout lets him camp the platforms relatively noncommittally (although you can pester him with Din’s) and pelt you with his boomerang and Z-dropped bombs until you are at kill percent. Its blastzones also do you no favors with regard to kills or survivability. Stages with sloped sides allow for easier Spin Attack gimps, which is a good reason to avoid both Yoshi stages *(the small side blastzones of YS do have the potential to work in your favor, possibly making it a legitimate counterpick if you know what you are doing). Large flat stages like FD and PS2 are likewise terrible, since Link can easily projectile camp you and give you nowhere to run.

General Strategy
While not unwinnable, this is one of Zelda’s most difficult matchups, owing to Zelda’s vulnerability to disjoints, slow movement, and tall frame. With access to three excellent projectiles in his boomerang, bombs, and arrows, Link can out-camp you, so trying to hang back and force approaches out of him is a losing proposition. Unfortunately, you will need to be the aggressor in this matchup, as Link will try to play keep away and pelt you with projectiles until he can move in for the kill.

LC Nayru is one of your best approach options against Link; it buffers your approach against his projectiles and allows you to laglessly pursue him upon landing. Your Lightning Kicks can likewise act as valuable approach tools. Din’s on or near the ground can halt his movement, provide a temporary projectile shield, and pave the way for relatively safe teleport approaches. Din’s in the air is not as effective because Link can quickly clank it with his sword (usually jab) or Nair, but if you can manually detonate it just before he hits the Din, you can sometimes start something off of the explosion. Using the return hitbox may prove useful in some instances. Your wavedash OoS is invaluable in the neutral game, as it allows you to block projectiles while continuing to brute force your way forward.

Link’s melee range is quite long, and he can stuff many of your approaches with proper spacing, but some of his moves are also quite slow, so look for windows to punish. OoS options (Kicks, shield grabs, wavedash OoS, etc.) will help you weave past his sword strikes. His aerials are unsafe on shield if he does not space correctly, so try to shield grab him out of his aerials. This matchup becomes easier once you can get up close and personal. Link is a good combo weight for Zelda, so you can wreck him pretty hard with your bread and butter combos. Start with Ftilt, Usmash, or a grab; at low percents, you should be able to easily chain Usmashes and Utilts on him, finishing with a Kick, Uair (which beats his Dair), or Nair. A well-placed Din or a dash attack can be used to extend combos.

Edgeguarding Link is not always straightforward because Spin Attack is tricky to bypass horizontally and his aerial movement options are greatly diversified by his ability to AGT his bombs, but if you’re accurate and quick, you can plop a Din on his head (make sure it doesn’t get clanked) and follow up out of the hitstun. You can also try to Dair him through his Spin Attack if you’re feeling ballsy. If Link tethers, Telesnap to the ledge and force him to up-B or ledge hop. In either case, wavelanding onto the stage and punishing with a dash attack, pivot Fsmash, Dsmash or Kick can be an excellent option. If Link fails to sweetspot the ledge, Fsmashes, Dsmashes, or Kicks can quickly end his stocks.

Things to Watch For
Grab range – His grab may go farther than you expect, so be prepared to roll/spotdodge at a moment’s notice, especially when engaging him OoS. His grab is also quite laggy, so you can usually get a good punish off of a whiffed grab.

Dthrow – At low percents, he can Dthrow -> jab -> regrab you; upward SDI on the jab can help you escape (credits to noobftw). If you fail to SDI, it is likely that he will be able to finish with Utilt or Usmash. At high percents, make sure you DI it behind him to avoid his nastier follow-ups. Incorrect DI on a Dthrow will lead into a lethal Dair or Fair.

Zair – properly spaced Zairs can stuff your Nayru/Kick approaches and pop you up into Uair follow-ups.

Juggles – Link’s Utilt, Uair, Usmash, and bombs can juggle you very easily. Don’t try to challenge his upward strikes; get to the ground as quickly as you can.

Gimps – Link is one of the few characters who can effectively gimp Zelda’s recovery. ALWAYS SWEETSPOT THE LEDGE, TELEBURN HIM (and for the love of all that is holy, don’t miss) OR AVOID HIM ENTIRELY when recovering or you WILL eat a Spin Attack, which will send you offstage at a nasty semi-spike angle. If he Spin Attacks while you are on the ledge, wait patiently for the move to end, then punish with a ledge hop aerial or Nayru. His arrows are also a huge threat; he can easily nail you out of the startup of Farore’s. They charge quickly, and a fully charged shot can kill you at around 60% if you are offstage. Make sure you save your jump and utilize fast falls to avoid his arrows.

 

[noobftw]

Things to Watch For
Grab range – His grab may go farther than you expect, so be prepared to roll/spotdodge at a moment’s notice, especially when engaging him OoS. His grab is also quite laggy, so you can usually get a good punish off of a whiffed grab.

Dthrow – At low percents, he can Dthrow -> jab -> regrab you until about 30%, regardless of DI, and it is likely that he will be able to finish with Utilt or Usmash. At high percents, make sure you DI it behind him to avoid his nastier follow-ups. Incorrect DI on a Dthrow will lead into a lethal Dair or Fair.

Have you tried smash DI'ing up against the jab for down throw->jab because zelda is quite floaty so you might be able to be higher than the grab? Also longer grab is usually the pivot grab since all tether grabs seem to have a longer grab when pivoting.
I also agree that the match up is painful. It mostly relies on staying close to link and reading his techs to keep up with him. Telecancel mix ups from the platforms are also ways to get in. As long as you don't make it predictable. I'd definitely say although zelda's platform movement is limited I would try to use her movement as well as you can to combat the projectiles and disjoints.

 

[Vitriform]

Have you tried smash DI'ing up against the jab for down throw->jab because zelda is quite floaty so you might be able to be higher than the grab? Also longer grab is usually the pivot grab since all tether grabs seem to have a longer grab when pivoting.
I also agree that the match up is painful. It mostly relies on staying close to link and reading his techs to keep up with him. Telecancel mix ups from the platforms are also ways to get in. As long as you don't make it predictable. I'd definitely say although zelda's platform movement is limited I would try to use her movement as well as you can to combat the projectiles and disjoints.

I think you're right about that with regard to the Dthrow -> jab -> regrab. Playing around with it today, I was able to escape a few times. SDI up on the jab can get you out, but it's definitely tough. I revised this section and noted you as a contributor for this little tidbit.

Using platform movement options is always good, so long as you don't accidentally waveland into the projectiles (which happens sometimes if Link angles the boomerang upward).

The long grab I'm referring to has nothing to do with pivot vs. normal grab; it's just that his grab is so much longer than a standard, non-tether grab that I figure it might be jarring to someone on the receiving end who's unfamiliar with the matchup (and thus it's worthy of note, especially because he can shield grab even perfectly spaced lightning kicks on occasion). There are still situations where I get clipped by the very tip of the hookshot, thinking that I'm out of range, but it happens less to me than it used to, since I play this matchup pretty often.

 

[Vitriform]

I did a Roy analysis.

Favorability
2.5

Good Stages
Dreamland
Final Destination
Smashville
Green Hill Zone

Bad Stages
WarioWare
Yoshi’s Story
Yoshi’s Island (Brawl)
Battlefield

Roy excels when he can play on a small stage with small blastzones and low-hanging platforms. Don’t afford him this opportunity. The smaller the stage, the fewer the places you have to run, and the more platforms, the more opportunity he has to noncommittally platform techchase you and set up juggles. Roy can kill you very early with Fsmash (as low as 50% if he catches you with poor DI), so stages with small sides are not your best options unless they offer some sort of other advantage. Stage selection can be a little unusual in this matchup because Roy excels on many of your go-to stages, such as FoD, so stick to large or flat stages with fewer platforms and high ceilings.

General Strategy
Roy can be a somewhat troublesome matchup because he can easily outmaneuver and outspace you with his excellent ground mobility and his sword respectively. Thankfully, he lacks a projectile, so you have the advantage if you can keep Roy at a good distance. Play patiently and defensively, moving in to strike only when necessary or when it is safe to do so. Roy can DD camp you, but if you choose your stages/bans wisely, you should be able to stop him from forcing you to go on the offensive.

Din’s Fire, DD and spaced Bair walls will be your primary neutral game tools. At longer distances, cast a Din to restrict Roy’s movement and force him to approach on your terms. He can easily clank it with jab or Ftilt, but it might open up Roy’s defenses long enough for you to capitalize. Telecancel approaches are a good way to get in on Roy if he wastes time trying to clank a Din. If he DD camps you at midrange and fishes for grabs, try to bait him with your own DD and LC Nayru (B-reverses can be helpful here) or set up a wall with your various short-hopped Bair mixups (SHFFL Bair, Bair WL, SH Bair -> Nayru, and SH double Bair are all good options). Roy can also throw in spaced Dtilts and Ftilts for zoning. If you’re close enough to Roy, Dtilt spam can be punished with short-hopped Bairs.

If Roy tries to take a more aggressive approach and pressures you with DED and spaced aerials, it is important not to panic. Stay in shield (but watch for grabs) and scan for opportunities to retaliate. Roy’s aerials are all quite safe on shield if he spaces correctly (his best aerial on shield is Uair, at -2, and his worst is Dair, at -5), and they will push you back somewhat if he sweetspots, so don’t count on being able to shield grab him (by all means go for it if he makes a mistake though). DED is dangerous because it deals considerable shield damage (especially the downward modes) and has tons of mixups, including a stab that reaches behind Roy on the 4th strike, but there is sometimes enough lag between hits to react with an OoS option (usually shield grab/Usmash/up-B). Treat his pressure like spacie pressure; if you are certain that he has timed or spaced something poorly, make him pay for it. If not, don’t be afraid to buffer a roll or WD OoS and reset to neutral.

Roy is a semi-fast faller, so your bread and butter follow-ups will work a treat. Usmash/Utilt will chain until around 40%, and you can usually finish with a Kick or Nair. Below 25% or so, you will want to Uthrow him to take advantage of his fall speed and lead into your Usmashes; beyond that, he will often fly too high for your smashes (but you can still get a Nair or Kick), so it’s your choice whether you want to Uthrow him again or go for Dthrow techchases. Dthrow/Fthrow DI mixups are potent at higher percents to net surprise Lightning Kick kills. As usual, you can extend combos with dash attack and any Din’s Fires you happen to have lying around.

Unfortunately, Roy is not the easiest character to edgeguard if he can sweetspot the ledge correctly. His up-B has massive disjoint, multiple hits, and an annoyingly long hang time at the end which makes it extremely difficult to edgehog him with a roll from the ledge. If you have time, your best option is to place a Din right next to the ledge, as close as possible, so Roy’s up-B drags him into it, then Dair him out of the hitstun. A slightly more difficult option is to time your teleport snap to ledge so that you grab it just as Roy’s up-B hitboxes come out; this will give you enough ledge invincibility to absorb the hits. Simply keep hold of the ledge and watch Roy plummet to his death. You can also hold ledge and teleport regrab to hit him with the ribbon hitbox (make sure you can maintain ledge invincibility if you do this, since Roy’s up-B can easily stage spike you if you’re not invincible). Forcing him to recover onstage is good, since his recovery has a lot of endlag, making for easy punishes, but you will rarely be afforded this opportunity if Roy knows what he is doing.

Roy’s offstage game is poor, meaning you can usually recover unhindered if you are above the stage and far enough away. Things get more difficult if you need to recover low. Roy can grab the ledge and force you to recover onstage, then use his quick ledgedash and good mobility to punish the end lag of your teleport. Recover high whenever possible, and sweetspot the ledge whenever Roy fails to cover that option. Don’t ledgehop Nayru to get back onstage unless you’re punishing a whiff; Roy can stuff this option far too easily with Dtilt, Ftilt or Fsmash, the last of which can easily kill you.

Things to Watch For
Invincible ledgedashes – Roy’s ledgedash is fast enough that he can perform many actions out of it while maintaining ledge invincibility. Give it due respect, back off, and hold stage control if you suspect that he will try to attack you out of ledgedash.

Dthrow/Fthrow mixups – DI both throws down and away from Roy to avoid follow-ups.

Juggles – Like most characters with large disjoints, Roy can easily juggle you with Fair, Uair, and Utilt. Get to the ground as quickly as possible, and avoid platforms on the way down unless you know Roy cannot reach them in time to resume the juggle.

 

[Prynne]

I'll update the OP soon, promise.

 

[jtm94]

Anyone have opinions on Zelda vs ROB or Zelda vs Sonic before I go in on my thoughts/experience?

 

[noobftw]

Nothing to say for either so your opinion is very welcome :D. I've only played one sonic so I don't have much experience although I did win in the tournament match but I felt like it was because he wasn't respecting my space. If he dash dance camped he definitely could've won (although that's kinda how you beat zelda to begin with).

On a side note I feel like the falcon match up could possibly be a 2. After playing a bunch of falcons in friendlies (training partner is Kwan, a falcon that's #3 on norcal PR) and tourneys I would say that it's one of her worst match ups. D-throw-> knee seems to combo reguardless of the DI I have and it just means death.
And this isn't my bias from losing to falcons since I've beaten a fair share of them due to them being worse than me or not knowing the match up. But if the falcon knows the zelda match up, it gets much harder for zelda to do anything. His speed makes Din's not as effective. His dash dance grab into knee is almost a guaranteed kill or edgeguard on zelda. His combo game is just as good if not better than zelda's. And she tends to lose neutral as well since falcon's can just dash dance, nair, or overshoot stomp.

 

[jtm94]

Favorability
4 against aggro Sonic. 2 against campy Sonic.

Good Stages
Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Battlefield, Warioware, Green Hill Zone

Bad Stages
Final Destination(never), Pokestadium 2, Dreamland, Norfair, Distant Planet

General Strategy
If aggro just bait any form of movement in with land cancelled Nayrus and then hit him out of it with an assortment of dash attack, ftilt, nair, another Nayrus. If you do not have enough time to kick him when applicable, shield then try to bair him oos. Bair oos only works on slower DownB speeds, SideB but is tough to time without getting hit, and dash attack.
If campy there is very little you can do. place dins with extreme caution as he can punish across any stage. Again you will want to bait movement options with Nayrus, but if that doesn't work you will need to FORCE interaction by slowly dash dancing towards him and taking stage away from him to force him to act. If he tries to go above you be ready with uair and nair to nab him. If he tries to go through you be ready with shield and dash attack.

Things to look out for
Sonic can grab out of SideB. Though bair is fast enough to hit him as he exits your shield, he can just cancel SideB into a grab before he makes it to the other side.
Sonic will usually upthrow > aerial against most characters. DI all of his throws to the front of him as he will only use upthrow and dthrow as they are his good throws. There is no way to escape aerials out of upthrow other than getting to a high enough % or DIing poorly on purpose to catch him off guard. If the upthrow will put you off stage at percents greater than 100 I would recommend DIing into the stage so he cannot edgeguard you nor get UpB > uair at higher percent.

Videos
I will get some videos of my training partner and myself soon.

Attribution
Training partner and I

 

[Prynne]

The OP has been updated!