Zelda Matchup Anthology

[4tlas]

Matchup from 's Perspective (+3 has Zelda winning)

+3:
+2:
+1:
0:
-1:

-2:
-3:


What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

Not my opinion. This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.

I think I disagree with most of this list.

ICs is probs +3. Yoshi is probs +2. I think Dedede is neutral, maybe in Dedede's favor, but he has to play not like Dedede so nobody is good at it. Olimar is in Olimar's favor.

Peach is in Peach's favor, Mario is definitely in Mario's favor. Kirby is in Zelda's favor, as is Charizard and Ganondorf. Roy might be -2.

Squirtle is -3. Ike is probs only -1. Metaknight definitely only -1.

I'm sure I could find more things to disagree with if I looked more carefully, but you get the idea. I disagree so much I'm not sure we can even have useful discussion from it lol

 

[Kneato]

I think I disagree with most of this list.

ICs is probs +3. Yoshi is probs +2. I think Dedede is neutral, maybe in Dedede's favor, but he has to play not like Dedede so nobody is good at it. Olimar is in Olimar's favor.

Peach is in Peach's favor, Mario is definitely in Mario's favor. Kirby is in Zelda's favor, as is Charizard and Ganondorf. Roy might be -2.

Squirtle is -3. Ike is probs only -1. Metaknight definitely only -1.

I'm sure I could find more things to disagree with if I looked more carefully, but you get the idea. I disagree so much I'm not sure we can even have useful discussion from it lol

I'm not looking for useful discussion, I'm looking for this board's general feeling of Zelda's matchup so I can fix the community chart Thanks for the feedback.

 

[4tlas]

I'm not looking for useful discussion, I'm looking for this board's general feeling of Zelda's matchup so I can fix the community chart Thanks for the feedback.

Alright more feedback then!

I think Pikachu is only -1, but I could see it at -2. I think Fox is -2 but I could understand someone claiming its -1. Mewtwo I think is -1, but again I could see it being -2.

 

[ZGE]

Any quick thoughts on Zelda vs. D3? I'm going to House of Paign IX today and may get to play Ripple.

 

[4tlas]

Any quick thoughts on Zelda vs. D3? I'm going to House of Paign IX today and may get to play Ripple.

If he plays like a Dedede should (what he calls air camping I believe) then you should win the matchup easily. He's a big body and if he's in the air he can't block lightning kicks and is easily harassed by Dins.

If he plays like a Dedede should vs Zelda (dash dance on the ground, go for shield grabs and poke with hammer/waddles) then I believe Dedede wins the matchup. Not much you can do about the massive range on the hammer when he's on the ground aside from hard read his non-approaches (Dins for harass), his non-pokes (so just keep running in even though you're already in threat range), and his defensive choices (shield, spot dodge, retreat). If you're good at teleport shenanigans you might be able to get some mileage off of it.

 

[ZGE]

Update: Ripple isn't here, but I did just take out Vro. http://smashingillini.challonge.com/hop9pmsingles

 

[4tlas]

Update: Ripple isn't here, but I did just take out Vro. http://smashingillini.challonge.com/hop9pmsingles

Yeah Ripple was at Shots Fired I think. Good job.

 

[4tlas]

I'm not looking for useful discussion, I'm looking for this board's general feeling of Zelda's matchup so I can fix the community chart Thanks for the feedback.

So I saw your Reddit post, and now that I know what the 1/2/3 represents in terms of percentages, I think there's even more editing to be done. I was treating +-1 as slight advantage (60/40 I guess), +-2 as advantage (65/35 I suppose), and +-3 as lopsided (70/30 or worse). Honestly I would call 55/45 even. If you want 55/45 to be +-1, then maybe half of those 0 matchups should be -1 for Zelda. And if -3 is only 65/35, I think a couple more of those -2s can move down.

Then again I think percentages are a terrible way of looking at matchups anyway.

 

[TacoLord9000]

Does anyone know the Marth matchup? Because I have little to no clue on how to play this matchup.

Also from what I noticed, Marth's punish game seems to be quite stronger. Zelda seems to be quite poor in general against the disjoint.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Does anyone know the Marth matchup? Because I have little to no clue on how to play this matchup.

Also from what I noticed, Marth's punish game seems to be quite stronger. Zelda seems to be quite poor in general against the disjoint.

Go Sheik

 

[4tlas]

Does anyone know the Marth matchup? Because I have little to no clue on how to play this matchup.

Also from what I noticed, Marth's punish game seems to be quite stronger. Zelda seems to be quite poor in general against the disjoint.

The only top Marth I've played dislikes playing both Zelda and Sheik, so I am never sure if he knows the MU completely. Sora also loves to style when we play friendlies so I have no real way of gauging the MU (I generally win in friendlies), but he plays completely seriously in bracket and demolishes me 100% of the time.

We also haven't played friendlies or bracket in months. I've gotten a lot better in that time and he's played mostly Melee, so I have no idea now.

My advice is twofold:

1) Play Sheik
-or-
2) Play Zelda as if she were Sheik

By this I mean wait for him to pick an option and then punish that. If you need to take the offense because you're behind, alternate between faking approaches and overshooting your approaches. You'll get really good at reading the "they won't attack their threat zone right now but will retreat instead, so I'm just going to keep running through the scary sword space" scenario by playing Zelda.

 

[Kaeldiar]

See? Atlas backed me up. Play Sheik, even if you never transform into her

 

[ZGE]

Ike is super duper hard too as I found out this weekend (metroid). Tips? Or should I just work on that Sheik?

 

[Arcalyth]

Get him offstage, FW stall to victory

P.S. teleport to ledge from stage is definitely still a thing

 

[Kaeldiar]

Get him offstage, FW stall to victory

P.S. teleport to ledge from stage is definitely still a thing

It is a nerfed thing. You need to a) time a shorten or b) space it perfectly. In addition, you are vulnerable for a frame before grabbing the ledge. Beforehand, you could instantly grab. This is a substantial nerf, because it means you need to get to the ledge BEFORE there is a hitbox there.

 

[ZGE]

Ike outranges Zelda and is quicker, and it's super hard in general to get in on him. Clanking Din's is pretty easy for him. metroid and I did a set outside of bracket and he got like 6 dacus kills on me though, rofl.

 

[4tlas]

I find Ike easier than both Marth and Roy. His aerials are all enough of a commitment that clanking aerial Dins isn't easy, and a grounded Dins blocks all quickdraw options so you can play neutral without fear. He also doesn't suddenly break out of combos like Marth or kill you with raw fsmash like Roy.

Your teleport is basically a better quickdraw. Use it and Dins to confuse Ike and then combo him to death. If he ever tries to recover with quickdraw just lightning kick; you don't even need to sweetspot it to gimp him. Hell, you can also just place a Dins way out there and boop he's dead.

 

[Arcalyth]

It's a nerfed thing, yeah, but the spacing is pretty easy. Wish I could make gifs so I could show you.

 

[Kaeldiar]

But always be sure to ban Green Ike Zone!

 

[redcometchar]

So im a wolf player and Chard from vegas beat my furry tail last two times we played.

After labbing a bit I have a few questions about the matchup if someone can lend a hand.

It looks like I can just jump on reaction to teleport starup and zelda can't touch me. Is this true?

Is there any way to punish nayrus hate or whatever if i bait it out? I cant beat it with any of my hitboxes. It is hard enough to bait out because zelda can do it on reaction but after i jump in to punish it... and get wacked and edgegaurded.

Speaking of death, am i supposed to read her teleport direction every time when she recovers? Can i react to it?

Which way should i be sdi-ing f smash? Whenever i tried to smash di down and shield i promptly died. I dont have a problem with up smash though.

Thanks.

 

[4tlas]

I'll try to answer these as best I can.

It looks like I can just jump on reaction to teleport starup and zelda can't touch me. Is this true?

She does have to end the teleport on some ground to be able to act out of it, if that's what youre asking. Its a mixup, so no matter what you do she has an option, and no matter what she does you have an option. If you start jumping she's going to start lightning kicking you or appearing underneath you with an upsmash or nair. If she picks only grounded options out of teleport (or tries to hit you with the appearing hitbox) then go ahead an jump if you like. You can also CC, shield, or just throw out a hitbox. All depends on what they are doing.

Is there any way to punish nayrus hate or whatever if i bait it out? I cant beat it with any of my hitboxes. It is hard enough to bait out because zelda can do it on reaction but after i jump in to punish it... and get wacked and edgegaurded.

If she uses it on the ground, it has pretty significant endlag. To bait that out, you could jump at her and then waveland back or double jump, since you're Wolf.

In the air, the hitbox is pitiful and she doesn't have the invuln before the hitboxes come out. So just hit her first, or get under/above her and hit her out of it. No hitboxes there.

If shes doing it exactly at the height where she will end up land cancelling it, you can often get a shield grab on it. Alternatively, you could just outspace it. Or hit her out of the sky before shes at the height when she can use it.

Speaking of death, am i supposed to read her teleport direction every time when she recovers? Can i react to it?

Yes you have to read it for the most part. I find reading it pretty easy, but you might not as a non-Zelda player. Basically, there is so much startup time on the upB that you have plenty of time to realize the few angles she actually might want to take (its not as flexible as Firefox even though they both have the startup). If she doesn't take one of those options, then you CAN react to it. The options are: teleport onto a platform, teleport onto the ground, autosnap to ledge if coming from above, end teleport at the ledge. The first and last are often frame-perfect requirements, the second still has a decent amount of lag and she'll be near you if you stay onstage, and the third is covered by the standard ledgehog. Anything else is reactable, such as Teleport high into the sky and fall, or teleport not-quite-to-the-ground.

Which way should i be sdi-ing f smash? Whenever i tried to smash di down and shield i promptly died. I dont have a problem with up smash though.

I don't know, but I'm guessing you want to DI in whichever direction you were already in, from the center. So if you were inside Zelda, DI behind her. If you were getting just the tip, DI out. If you're smack dab in the center, DI down and hold shield, since you're Wolf.

I would instead recommend just DIing if you're in the center so you can either get an amsa tech (and if you're holding shield and SDIing down that may be difficult), or DIing upward if you have so little stage left you can't get an amsa tech.

 

[Tobb99]

About the teleport. I think it's good to be kind of close to her in general. Because that makes teleport more unsafe as it has some start-up, which you can intercept.

 

[redcometchar]

I'll try to answer these as best I can.

Your a lifesaver, thanks a ton.

 

[Miryafa]

Does anyone have Olimar experience? I need help, because playing against CP9 feels like playing against Fox with a sword, except I can't punish him as hard because he's lighter.

And I'm having trouble with his comboing me with nair-uair or nair-fair

 

[Kaeldiar]

Does anyone have Olimar experience? I need help, because playing against CP9 feels like playing against Fox with a sword, except I can't punish him as hard because he's lighter.

And I'm having trouble with his comboing me with nair-uair or nair-fair

In my opinion, Olimar is Zelda's 2nd best MU (after ICs), mostly because LCN beats 90% of his toolkit. The most important is to prevent him from playing his game. Part of what can make Olimar difficult is when he gets flowered Pikmin...so just don't let him do that! Like any "Power Up" archetype fighting character, he suffers in practice, because he has to wait to be a real character. Kick his ass before he gets a chance to do that.

His DD/WD game is much weaker than Fox's, so much so that yours is almost as good! The disjoint...yeah, that'll give you some issues. His range is surprisingly good for such a tiny character, but that's really all he has going for him against Zelda. That said, outspacing LCN is hard as balls for him, and he tends to have to punish the endlag, like everyone else. His frame data is pretty average, and his best moves have decent startup (including fair and bair, which are the only scary things in neutral). So stay on the offensive and don't give him too much space.

Offensively...Olimar has trouble escaping Zelda's combos, because he's on the floaty mid-weight spectrum, like Marth. Use that to your advantage and get your floaty combos going (f-throw > fair, nair > fair). He also has an absolute GARBAGE techroll, which means that d-throw is a super good option. You should be able to reaction techchase if he DI's properly, and if he DI's in, you can get bair, nair, up-air, or a re-grab. His model size is very circular, which means that hitting sweetspot kicks is on the easy side, because you don't have weird limbs protruding to mess you up.

Edgeguarding...is a piece of cake. Grab ledge, force him to stage. If he wants to sweetspot, he's in perfect position to get hit by a dropzone kick. If he tries to do ANYTHING ELSE, you can up-b gimp or dair him, because his hitboxes on up-b are pitifully small. If you want to play it safe, then make him land and punish the 30 frames of endlag.

Defensively...up-smash OoS obviously doesn't work, but you can up-b > instant cancel > up-smash combo him. Grounded Nayru's is also super good against him, because I don't think he can get throw follow-ups on us, and Shieldgrab is the way that Nayru's is usually punished. I don't know if I was ever hit by nair > something, but I was up-air juggled occasionally. That's just a Zelda problem, though. Make sure you don't burn your jump prematurely, and use **air dodge** or good telecancels to get down. On the off chance that you get hit by side-b, nair or LCN can clear the Pikmin easily.

Don't get caught by dumb stuff...Remember that unlike most tether grabs, his grab is active THE ENTIRE TIME the Pikmin is out. It's active for 14 frames, which is a VERY long time for a grab/hitbox to be active. Reds deal more damage, Yellows have faster frame data and are larger, Blues have a bigger grab and stronger throws, Whites are good for comboing because of lower KB, (and you'll need to use a GTFO IMMEDIATELY if you get hit by one, or you can take as much as 80%) and Purples have stronger KB. Everything can be DI'd out of, and he doesn't have very many DI traps other than his throws (learn those). He can b-reverse and wavebounce with Pikmin Pluck and Whistle to mix up his movement (which Steelguttey is quite good at), but if you keep near him, you should be fine

 

[Miryafa]

Does LCN mean Land-canceled Nayru's Love?

My experience is that when I do that I get fair'd by pikmin. CP9 has no trouble spacing that. Or shield-grabbing me even when I'm properly timing a follow-up like utilt, usmash, or grab.

Offstage when I'm near ledge he always recovers high and covers his landing with his disjoints. I haven't found a way to interact with that. But more often I hit hin offstage and he gets to the ledge before I do. There's even been a time I ran offstage to FW-snap to ledge and he hit me out of it with his up-b -_- The ribbon didn't affect him at all.

Was that just bad decision-making on my part?

Grounded NL has been terrible for me. He often approaches with fair, which straight wins over grounded NL. It stops grabs sometimes.

If you don't think Olimar gets grab follow-ups you haven't been playing good ones or I need to learn your DI. Olimar's uthrow->uair at low%s lead to dthrow->uair or if I recall correctly dthrow->fair at high%

Sounds like the things I can use are... Stay close (which weirdly is the opposite of how I recently won a game against CP9), instant-cancel up-b to usmash (haven't heard of that before), dthrow->chase, avoid stupid-long grabs.

 

[Miryafa]

<snip>

Quoting for the alert, which I forgot in my last post.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Does LCN mean Land-canceled Nayru's Love?

Yes

My experience is that when I do that I get fair'd by pikmin. CP9 has no trouble spacing that. Or shield-grabbing me even when I'm properly timing a follow-up like utilt, usmash, or grab.

LCN is more of a defensive tool than an offensive one. If you're getting shieldgrabbed, then you're either doing something that is unsafe or doing something with the wrong timing/spacing (read as: "if you're getting shieldgrab, you're probably trying to do something"). LCN is -4 ON BLOCK, which means that unless you do your LCN perfectly AND buffer spotdodge, it will get shieldgrabbed by most characters. If he's out of range, then it's even easier for him to get a punish. Oli's grab is only 2 frames slower than normal (9, rather than 7), so it's still fast enough to grab you if you try to something offensive afterwards. As far as getting fair'd, that's a matter of the arc of the fair. You're probably getting hit by his fair at the very end, where the Pikmin extends below Olimar, so he can effectively jump OVER the hitboxes.

Offstage when I'm near ledge he always recovers high and covers his landing with his disjoints. I haven't found a way to interact with that.

Threaten space with up-air

But more often I hit hin offstage and he gets to the ledge before I do. There's even been a time I ran offstage to FW-snap to ledge and he hit me out of it with his up-b -_- The ribbon didn't affect him at all.

Learn to get to ledge faster. The proper spacing/timing for telesnap from stage is still worth learning, even if you're vulnerable for a frame, unlike in previous versions. Movement is one of the most important things to learn with Zelda, particularly since her movement is so bad. You can't let it become a weakness. Watch Knullebibs or Odds, and watch how insane their movement is. They make Bowser look incredibly fast. Get used to doing first frame and last frame telecancels so you can telecancel as fast as possible or as far as possible, respectively. They will make stagger punishing much more effective, and they will allow you to maintain stage position after a successful hit.

Grounded NL has been terrible for me. He often approaches with fair, which straight wins over grounded NL. It stops grabs sometimes.

Time it better. It's a counter, not an anti-approach tool. Think of Sheik's f-tilt. Sheik's f-tilt is an anti-approach tool, not a counter. With Sheik's f-tilt, you want to hit them BEFORE they try to hit you. With Nayru's, you want to do it basically when they're on top of you. The i-frames overlap some with the hitboxes, so you can successfully counter.

If you don't think Olimar gets grab follow-ups you haven't been playing good ones or I need to learn your DI. Olimar's uthrow->uair at low%s lead to dthrow->uair or if I recall correctly dthrow->fair at high%

Hmmm. up-throw > up-air might be true at low%. Zelda doesn't get combo'd out of throws very easily, but there are still a good handful that are true. At high%, you should be able to jump out of everything. Zelda is insanely good at getting out of "throw > kill move" (except d-throw > knee *cries*). I might be wrong, but "good DI > jump" is da best

Sounds like the things I can use are... Stay close (which weirdly is the opposite of how I recently won a game against CP9),

If he has trouble dealing with Din's and/or sucks at counter camping, then that might work. I know that Goode took out CP9 at a national, and Goode basically just plays with good spacing.

instant-cancel up-b to usmash (haven't heard of that before)

The ****ing coolest. Hard to do, because of the timing (you have to practice the cancel timing WITH hitlag!), but it's a crazy good option on mid-weights.

dthrow->chase, avoid stupid-long grabs.

yeee

 

[4tlas]

Does anyone have Olimar experience? I need help, because playing against CP9 feels like playing against Fox with a sword, except I can't punish him as hard because he's lighter.

And I'm having trouble with his comboing me with nair-uair or nair-fair

I play CP9 during the school year, when he's in Boston. He usually beats me, but he always says that he thinks its a horrendously losing matchup for Olimar.

Its not, its a good matchup for him. I think Kael hasn't played any good Olimars.

That being said, you can definitely still beat all of the things, its just tough.

For once, Olimar can't camp. You can Nayrus or Farore's all the Pikmin, so he'll have to approach at some point.

Farore's Boost can get you out of some of his followups, but its not that easy against Olimar.

Land cancelled Nayrus allows you to approach if you really have to, but you'd be better off not approaching. Harass with Dins and teleport like crazy. Bigger stages are better, here.

If you think you can combo into a lightning kick, you'd better hope he doesn't have a yellow Pikmin. Those things are stupid fast. Use upair more to beat his disjoint, but be careful of his dair.

He should never make it back to stage, though it can be very difficult for Zelda to get back too.

His grab is crazy active. Typically, you dodge grab with spotdodge, but against Olimar you need to dodge it with jump. It has so much endlag you can hit him out of a jump.

Edit: All of Kael's advice is very good, I just disagree about it being a good matchup for Zelda.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I play CP9 during the school year, when he's in Boston. He usually beats me, but he always says that he thinks its a horrendously losing matchup for Olimar.

Its not, its a good matchup for him. I think Kael hasn't played any good Olimars.

That being said, you can definitely still beat all of the things, its just tough.

For once, Olimar can't camp. You can Nayrus or Farore's all the Pikmin, so he'll have to approach at some point.

Farore's Boost can get you out of some of his followups, but its not that easy against Olimar.

Land cancelled Nayrus allows you to approach if you really have to, but you'd be better off not approaching. Harass with Dins and teleport like crazy. Bigger stages are better, here.

If you think you can combo into a lightning kick, you'd better hope he doesn't have a yellow Pikmin. Those things are stupid fast. Use upair more to beat his disjoint, but be careful of his dair.

He should never make it back to stage, though it can be very difficult for Zelda to get back too.

His grab is crazy active. Typically, you dodge grab with spotdodge, but against Olimar you need to dodge it with jump. It has so much endlag you can hit him out of a jump.

Edit: All of Kael's advice is very good, I just disagree about it being a good matchup for Zelda.

Spoiler

Did we just disagree on something for the first time ever? Does this mean we have to break up?

My Olimar MU experience comes from having been an Olimar secondary until his recovery was massacred, and I've played Steelguttey on Netplay

 

[4tlas]

Spoiler

Did we just disagree on something for the first time ever? Does this mean we have to break up?

My Olimar MU experience comes from having been an Olimar secondary until his recovery was massacred, and I've played Steelguttey on Netplay

Yes, Kael. Time to break up.

Well Steelguttey is good, but Netplay is certainly a different beast. And Zelda is a beast on Netplay.

 

[Vitriform]

Does anyone have Olimar experience? I need help, because playing against CP9 feels like playing against Fox with a sword, except I can't punish him as hard because he's lighter.

And I'm having trouble with his comboing me with nair-uair or nair-fair

I play Dotcom quite often, so I have a fair bit of experience in the matchup against one of the better Olimars. I actually think Zelda's favored, but not by a lot. The fact that he's a lot slower than Marth or Fox and that he has a much worse recovery is huge in getting mileage in this matchup. Fox and Marth have crazy dashdances that stuff your options, and Olimar can't do that, so he has to resort to playing lame and throwing Pikmin at you in neutral until he can whiff punish you as you try to get them off. Fortunately, Zelda has some of the best tools in the game for removing Pikmin with Nair, Nayru, and Farore's Wind, so take full advantage of that. Nair is the quickest one, but Nayru has added utility because you can actually use it to stick him with his own Pikmin (or slam him with purples). It's most effective when B-reversed because the Olimar player will be trying to bait your Nayru/Nair to get punishes. Make sure you unstick Pikmin at a safe distance. Sometimes it's better to leave them on if you're too close to him, or if he sticks you while you're comboing or juggling him. Weigh your resources (% vs positioning and future gains in % or positioning) when deciding when to unstick Pikmin. Otherwise, you'll want to remove them (especially the whites) ASAP. Farore's Wind can unstick Pikmin while moving you around the stage.

You want to play a patient, but aggressive style against him. Don't charge at him headlong (Olimar thrives off this), but find opportunities to get up in his face so he can't camp you. Again, I emphasize that you must do this SAFELY, preferably under the cover of a Din's Fire. If you let him camp for too long, he'll be able to farm for blues and purples, (the most threatening ones in this matchup imo), and his Pikmin will flower, making him much more threatening. Olimar is fairly light, so kicks kill early. Take him to stages with high ceilings, since he can kill you off the top pretty easily if he manages to juggle you and he has a purple or red. My opinions regarding stage differ from Atlas a bit; I like small sides against Olimar (watch for purples though).Green Hill and Fountain are my favorites, and I'll take Warioware or Yoshi's Story if I can get them. Large stages with high ceilings are a wash; I have no objection heading to stages like Dreamland or Delfino either. Avoid Stadium like the plague because it sucks for you in this matchup.

Remember what each type of Pikmin does, and pay attention to the light on Olimar's head to see what's up next.

Red: extra damage
Purple: strong knockback, but worse range when thrown
Blue: stronger, longer grabs
Yellow: faster moves (frame-wise) and longer range
White: extremely damaging when landed on you (and can explode), and strong pummels

You can try to predict what the Olimar player is going to do based on what Pikmin he has. If it's a blue one up next, he'll probably be looking for a grab, for example.

Take advantage of his awful recovery. If you get him offstage, toss Din's Fires at him and zone him into a trajectory where you can either edgehog or hit him back offstage.

In the punish game, try to get him near a ledge or cover escape routes with a Din's Fire and Dthrow techchase. Olimar's tech rolls aren't the greatest, so reaction techchases are possible if you can limit some of his options. The standard Zelda BnB stuff also works--Ftilt -> Usmash -> Fair/Nair/Uair at low percents depending on DI. At high percent, try to get him offstage and edgeguard, or set up Din's Fires and throw him into them for follow-ups.

That's just my two cents. Your mileage may vary, and as you can probably tell, some of the other Zelda mains have somewhat differing opinions and advice.

 

[4tlas]

I forgot about flowering!

Which says to me that it doesn't seem to matter all that much, since I never noticed it. Perhaps its because my Olimar opponents still throw their Pikmin at me so they don't actually flower?

 

[Vitriform]

I forgot about flowering!

Which says to me that it doesn't seem to matter all that much, since I never noticed it. Perhaps its because my Olimar opponents still throw their Pikmin at me so they don't actually flower?

Flowering actually makes a pretty big difference. The damage is only a few points more, but especially with regard to purple aerials/smashes and blue throws, they kill considerably earlier. I've tried to Din's camp Dotcom a few times, and it's never ended well for me. As I said before, it also gives Olimar too much time to farm for his ideal Pikmin lineup on top of the flowering issue.

 

[Miryafa]

I'm also struggling with Ivy and need help. I noticed the OP says "apply shield pressure" which sounds insane to me. How does Zelda safely apply shield pressure to anyone? I've only ever broken a shield by hitting LK 3-4 times in a row.

But neither that nor anything else I've tried allows me to play against Ivy at close range. Her OOS nair comes out so fast that it stops everything I've tried on offense. And when she's attacking, it seems like she gets to do anything into jab into grab, and that beats all my options except roll away. I watched the associated video in the OP, but I think either Pluto is better than Steel Kangaroo, or she knows the matchup against me better than SK knew Riot, because Riot got a lot of hits in that would have failed against Pluto.

Notably Ivy's fair gives me the same trouble as Olimar's, but it's worse because I got hit with fair -> solar beam the other day =o (and because razor leaf -> fair zones me out better than anything Olimar can do)

 

[4tlas]

I'm also struggling with Ivy and need help. I noticed the OP says "apply shield pressure" which sounds insane to me. How does Zelda safely apply shield pressure to anyone? I've only ever broken a shield by hitting LK 3-4 times in a row.

But neither that nor anything else I've tried allows me to play against Ivy at close range. Her OOS nair comes out so fast that it stops everything I've tried on offense. And when she's attacking, it seems like she gets to do anything into jab into grab, and that beats all my options except roll away. I watched the associated video in the OP, but I think either Pluto is better than Steel Kangaroo, or she knows the matchup against me better than SK knew Riot, because Riot got a lot of hits in that would have failed against Pluto.

Notably Ivy's fair gives me the same trouble as Olimar's, but it's worse because I got hit with fair -> solar beam the other day =o (and because razor leaf -> fair zones me out better than anything Olimar can do)

"Shield pressure" does not refer to breaking a shield or even repeatedly performing options that are safe on shield. Shield pressure just means get them in shield while being near them. Your mere presence + their frame disadvantage from being in shield + their option disadvantage from being in shield = plenty of shield pressure, especially since Ivy's OoS options suck. She has nair and that's it.

If she is attacking you, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from Crouch Cancelling. Ivy loses to crouch cancel so hard it makes the character mid tier at best by itself. If you really don't want to CC, at least shield.

There's also little she can do to outcamp you. With Dins, you can outharass the synthesis, and with teleport you can make it unsafe for her to ever use synthesis. Razor leaf works against her, too.

As for the Steel Kangaroo vs Riot match, I was there at the time and I know both of those players. Riot is very good at throwing out hitboxes, and so is Steel Kangaroo. At the time, Steel was not good at avoiding Zelda's hitboxes. That match is very very very outdated. I haven't even watched it, and I can assure you it is not a good representation of the matchup.

I'll try and find something more recent, like me vs Yung Quaff. Hell, if you want to find those players fighting that matchup, you might be able to find Steel Kangaroo vs Romance somewhere (and SK has improved significantly). Riot doesn't play anymore, though I still see him occasionally.

EDIT: OMG IM THE COMMENTATOR FOR THAT SET LOLOLOLOL

Edit x2: Ok I watched some of it. Its so incredibly old, lol. They both played terribly. This is not a good representation of the matchup. I'll try and find something more recent and also better play.

 

[Miryafa]

What is this "crouch cancel" you speak of?

J/k, but the serious part is that I don't think to crouch cancel a lot of the time, and don't know what it's good against except Mario. I'll have to try that more.

 

[4tlas]

What is this "crouch cancel" you speak of?

J/k, but the serious part is that I don't think to crouch cancel a lot of the time, and don't know what it's good against except Mario. I'll have to try that more.

Well I cant find a video of me vs an Ivy, sorry.

Crouch Cancelling heavily reduces your knockback, allowing you to perform any option you want (instead of being in shieldstun and then only getting to perform OoS options). It is amazing against weak attacks at all percents (so, like, all of Ivy's non-bulb attacks), but is bad against attacks that pop you straight up (as you will often still end up off the ground and in hitstun) like Ivy's fair and tipped dtilt (though both can still be crouch cancelled at low percents). Crouch cancelling is a *waste* against moves with a lot of endlag. I *could* CC Ike's fsmash, but I can also just punish it out of shield, so...why bother eating the damage?

 

[Miryafa]

I got a chance to try out that shield pressure tonight in bracket (sadly not against Ivy) by dash-dancing close to someone, but just outside their range. It's cool to see how people respect my options.

Unfortunately fair and tipper dtilt are Pluto's main approaches (and nair), so I feel like cc-ing may not help me much

Gonna try anyway though.

 

[4tlas]

I got a chance to try out that shield pressure tonight in bracket (sadly not against Ivy) by dash-dancing close to someone, but just outside their range. It's cool to see how people respect my options.

Unfortunately fair and tipper dtilt are Pluto's main approaches (and nair), so I feel like cc-ing may not help me much

Gonna try anyway though.

You don't even necessarily have to dash-dance, but it probably doesn't hurt Zelda much to do so, while potentially being very useful.

You can still CC fair and dtilt at low percents (like up to 30 iirc), and you should be able to CC nair a lot. You should still be able to punish fair by shielding and then hitting with an OoS LK. If the dtilt isn't at the tipping range (just burst run past it) then you can CC it (and you can do it out of run). If it is at tipping range, you should be able to wavedash OoS or teleport OoS, and even if you can't get a punish for blocking, you can still advance further into her space and shove her off the stage.