Zelda Matchup Anthology

[Prynne]

Oh, this is the thread that Skype was talking about.
Somebody asked me to make a MU chart a few days ago, so I have this.
(it was made in 15 minutes though, so some things need small changes)
http://imgur.com/yZ5ZKBx

This is good! Now do a writeup, because why not?

 

[Getsafe]

Oh, this is the thread that Skype was talking about.
Somebody asked me to make a MU chart a few days ago, so I have this.
(it was made in 15 minutes though, so some things need small changes)
http://imgur.com/yZ5ZKBx

Oof, I kinda disagree with a lot D:

IMO:
DK 0
Sheik -1
Yoshi +1
MK 0
Falcon -1
Zard 0
Lucario 0
Kirby -1

Everything else I more or less agree with. I'd probably switch Wolf and Falco though

 

[noobftw]

Different regions have different players :1 so it's hard to tell. Also all sorts of skill levels and playstyles.
For me a lot of it would be different. For my region and my experience I would change.
Wolf, Falco, Yoshi, Zard, Ganon, and Wario 0
Falcon, Fox, and Mewtwo -2 (EDIT: My B)
Jiggs is neutral (There isn't a way to edgeguard jiggs and it's not exactly an easy win either lol)
ZSS, Roy, Lucas, Sheik, Luigi, G&W, and Kirby are -1
Lucario and Bowser +1

Although a lot of -1 could be argued to be neutral with slight advantage to the other character.
+2 I feel like it should be unwinnable if they play the match up and equal skill level.
Some characters I just don't know like oli, ROB, diddy, and pit.

 

[Getsafe]

Wait, are you saying we have plus 2 on fox falcon and mewtwo? Noooooo way

 

[noobftw]

Wait, are you saying we have plus 2 on fox falcon and mewtwo? Noooooo way

oops you right. -2 LOL

 

[TacoLord9000]

How do I beat falcon? I have a hard time trying not to die in this matchup. Every time I get grabbed, I die or I am put in a very unfavorable position. I'm not sure if my combo DI is bad or its something else but I feel quite lost in this matchup. It also doesn't help that the player I'm playing against is better than me.

In these matchups where I feel like I am sitting in shield a large amount of time, it's a very big issue. I feel like Zelda struggles against characters that can put ridiculous shield pressure and also outmaneuver her incredibly well like Falcon can.

Any ideas in neutral or out of shield options to deal with Falcon?

 

[Justbngoode]

How do I beat falcon? I have a hard time trying not to die in this matchup. Every time I get grabbed, I die or I am put in a very unfavorable position. I'm not sure if my combo DI is bad or its something else but I feel quite lost in this matchup. It also doesn't help that the player I'm playing against is better than me.

In these matchups where I feel like I am sitting in shield a large amount of time, it's a very big issue. I feel like Zelda struggles against characters that can put ridiculous shield pressure and also outmaneuver her incredibly well like Falcon can.

Any ideas in neutral or out of shield options to deal with Falcon?

Short answer: Upsmash OOS and a refined punish game.
Longer answer: This sounds more like a matter of respecting options. You most likely (and correct me if i'm wrong) haven't been punishing the falcon player correctly, which leads to him being more comfortable in pressuring you and invading your space. Because he has been entering your space, you feel over-pressured in that situation which leads to excessive shielding. What you need to do is establish your space through solid punishes to make the falcon player feel excessively cautious about approaching you, and upsmash OOS does a great job of doing that. You want your upsmash based punishes to do ~80 on falcon or take the stock in it's entirety. I think it's safe to say that anybody who gets combo'd to 80 off of one punish is going to give you a lot more respect in neutral. At this point you can battle for positioning, so there isn't much specifics i can give you.
I consider Falcon MU a 50-50 because of equal punishes, and neutral options that are offered to both sides. Falcon lacks consistent Din clear, and has a notable blind spot height for clearing Din's right around where his head is. In general, it is unsafe to place din's against fast characters, so usually when you have an advantage is when the time is best to Din. Falcon players: DD camping is an excellent tool in this mu, as zelda has limited mid range options in neutral situations, so baiting and punishing is a great way to play this MU.

Different regions have different players :1 so it's hard to tell. Also all sorts of skill levels and playstyles.
For me a lot of it would be different. For my region and my experience I would change.
Wolf, Falco, Yoshi, Zard, Ganon, and Wario 0
Falcon, Fox, and Mewtwo -2 (EDIT: My B)
Jiggs is neutral (There isn't a way to edgeguard jiggs and it's not exactly an easy win either lol)
ZSS, Roy, Lucas, Sheik, Luigi, G&W, and Kirby are -1
Lucario and Bowser +1

Although a lot of -1 could be argued to be neutral with slight advantage to the other character.
+2 I feel like it should be unwinnable if they play the match up and equal skill level.
Some characters I just don't know like oli, ROB, diddy, and pit.

Falcon and fox are definitely not -2 lol. For falcon see above but i'll try to talk about why I think the fox MU is even.
I'm good friends with BaconPancakes, one of the better PM Foxes, and I think that qualifies me as being a good source for how this MU works.
Firstly, our punishes on fox are insane. Upsmash chains, chaingrabs, and fair kb on fox's light weight make getting a hit on fox to be very satisfying. Comparatively, Fox's combo's tend to cap out at Drill-Shine-Upsmash, which really kills you at the same percentage as a well placed forward air will KO fox. Fox has great din clear, as nair can clear an undefended Din's fire rather easily, and enables fox to effectively laser camp and play very hot/cold throughout the matchup, but this strategy is not unbeatable. Depending on how much space he allows between the two of you, you should try to slowly place your movement more into his space. This does not mean outright approaching him, but it does mean that you are taking a piece of stage control in exchange for fox to maintain his distance, and allows you to stay prepared to retaliate if fox decides to contest you. It's important to understand breaking shine pressure (Upsmash is frame 5, so upsmash OOS is your best friend), as you need to make a majority of your punishes by beating shine (A good starting point is to time your punishes after the shine, as nair-shine will connect, but shine-nair will get upsmashed).
Edgegaurding fox is fairly calculated, so I'm going to give a short guide on how to remove fox's immediate options, so that you just have to punish Firefox. Say you have fox offstage due to a lightning kick, what you want to do is place the Din's Fire right in front of fox, and slightly high if you can manage it. This removes fox's option of immediately using illusion or picking an option from a DJ, so you're most likely going to have to punish a lower option at this point (Unless fox DJ's backwards/neutrally, which also limits his options to very few and easily coverable). Punish his low recovery as you will, but be aware that if fox is close enough to the stage, he can angle only slightly up as a mixup. It also should be noted that Firefox directly clears Din's fire. I've seen din's connect through Firefox once in a blue moon but that is because the din's hits the Firefox diagonally. IMO, it's very inconsistent to hit the Din's fire on Firefox so i would recommend not relying on it.

TLDR: One has an advantage in neutral, the other punishes like a truck. At higher levels this MU is best left at even because ultimately there is enough counters to each characters options that there is no mechanic that Fox/Zelda players can use to shut down one another or give oneself a significant advantage. The definition of an even matchup.

Falco MU is basically the same thing except neutral is more on an even playing field, we edgegaurd for free, we punish harder, and Falco lacks vertical kill moves.
Wolf MU is the Fox MU but less safe shine pressure, no vertical kill options, a worse shine, slow lasers, and he falls faster.


I might write more MU's in detail later, but it's 4AM and i'm very tired lol. reply with any matchup you want to contest me on or what you would like explained. I'll try to be timely about it.
~Goode

 

[Prynne]

It's a good thing that matchup spreads are kind of irrelevant. The only thing that really matters is how to play a matchup and win.

 

[Getsafe]

Well, that's halfway true

 

[Kaeldiar]

Falco MU is basically the same thing except neutral is more on an even playing field, we edgegaurd for free, we punish harder, and Falco lacks vertical kill moves.
Wolf MU is the Fox MU but less safe shine pressure, no vertical kill options, a worse shine, slow lasers, and he falls faster.

Just wanted to make a note about these 2 points. Falco DOES have vertical kill options on small stages. Dying to shine off the top is very possible on WarioLand or Yoshi's Melee, so you'll probably want to ban those.

Wolf's slow lasers are annoying AF. He can run in behind them and bait out a shield or LC Nayru's. Additionally, tipper fair kills off the top. If he's combo'ing you, you actually want to be right above him, so he can't get the tipper. Wolf Flash and bair are much easier for him to land and are usually your main concerns, but be aware that this exists. You get to combo him even harder, though *yay*

 

[Getsafe]

Actually Dins can hit Firefox pretty easily if you have it out early enough to manually detonate

 

[Kaeldiar]

Actually Dins can hit Firefox pretty easily if you have it out early enough to manually detonate

I don't know about "pretty easily," but it's a good option. I put Din's in between Fox and the ledge, so they usually go around it and I can punish with an f-smash. When they realize that they can go through it, I'll start using the manual detonation

 

[Justbngoode]

Just wanted to make a note about these 2 points. Falco DOES have vertical kill options on small stages. Dying to shine off the top is very possible on WarioLand or Yoshi's Melee, so you'll probably want to ban those.

Wolf's slow lasers are annoying AF. He can run in behind them and bait out a shield or LC Nayru's. Additionally, tipper fair kills off the top. If he's combo'ing you, you actually want to be right above him, so he can't get the tipper. Wolf Flash and bair are much easier for him to land and are usually your main concerns, but be aware that this exists. You get to combo him even harder, though *yay*

All of these points are valid, except I personally find wolf lasers less of a chore than falco lasers. Wolf tipper fair isn't as easy to nail and isn't as strong as Fox Upsmash or Upair though, which still makes me skeptic when comparing wolf's kill options.

Actually Dins can hit Firefox pretty easily if you have it out early enough to manually detonate

The problem I have with this is if you can time a detonation, you most likely know the angle and speed the firefox is coming from. You basically have a full read on firefox at that point, you might as well punish with something more meaty. IMO it's better to leave the din's to challenge fox's other options or utilize it after the firefox.

 

[4tlas]

All of these points are valid, except I personally find wolf lasers less of a chore than falco lasers. Wolf tipper fair isn't as easy to nail and isn't as strong as Fox Upsmash or Upair though, which still makes me skeptic when comparing wolf's kill options.



The problem I have with this is if you can time a detonation, you most likely know the angle and speed the firefox is coming from. You basically have a full read on firefox at that point, you might as well punish with something more meaty. IMO it's better to leave the din's to challenge fox's other options or utilize it after the firefox.

I agree about the Wolf stuff. The Dins is for a soft read though, when you don't want to risk jumping out at him or having to commit to positioning and then letting him onstage while you are left offstage now.

 

[Getsafe]

Yeah I usually go for the dins when they're far enough away that they can just barely recover and I don't think I can get there in time. If they aren't prepared for it they can get gimped too either by just falling if they aren't paying attention or by you grabbing ledge

But otherwise yeah I do anything else. Dair for straight down or at least mostly below the stage.

Grab ledge and Farore stall to refresh invincibility if necessary and then Bair for certain angles. Otherwise standard dsmash dtilt and fsmash

Also Grab ledge Farore stall is hilarious against falco and falcon

 

[TacoLord9000]

Short answer: Upsmash OOS and a refined punish game.
Longer answer: This sounds more like a matter of respecting options. You most likely (and correct me if i'm wrong) haven't been punishing the falcon player correctly, which leads to him being more comfortable in pressuring you and invading your space. Because he has been entering your space, you feel over-pressured in that situation which leads to excessive shielding. What you need to do is establish your space through solid punishes to make the falcon player feel excessively cautious about approaching you, and upsmash OOS does a great job of doing that. You want your upsmash based punishes to do ~80 on falcon or take the stock in it's entirety. I think it's safe to say that anybody who gets combo'd to 80 off of one punish is going to give you a lot more respect in neutral. At this point you can battle for positioning, so there isn't much specifics i can give you.
I consider Falcon MU a 50-50 because of equal punishes, and neutral options that are offered to both sides. Falcon lacks consistent Din clear, and has a notable blind spot height for clearing Din's right around where his head is. In general, it is unsafe to place din's against fast characters, so usually when you have an advantage is when the time is best to Din. Falcon players: DD camping is an excellent tool in this mu, as zelda has limited mid range options in neutral situations, so baiting and punishing is a great way to play this MU.

That's a fairly accurate assessment of my problems I would say.

I also have trouble against this Zero Suit Samus player in my region, he's pretty good. He almost took a game off Oracle.

I have gotten him down to 1 stock many times, but to be honest I have no idea what I am doing in the matchup.

It's a very weird matchup in my opinion. I tend to think that it's Zelda favored, but I'm just playing it wrong.

 

[rrf5067]

Prynne, would you explain the acronyms you use in the OP before you use them? I see DED in the Roy box with no idea what it could be.

Anyway, someone asked me to post in this thread, so here goes.

My experience is based on playing competitive level Mario (Stoks), Luigi (Dyl), DK (Taint), Diddy (Taint), Captain Falcon (Dyl), Zelda (Irish), Shiek (Hona), Ganon (Taint, others), M2 (don't remember), Pikachu (Gunta), Squirtle (Dad), Ness (Hona), Ike (PlumOrchid), Marth (Hona), Roy (Ashen), Rob (Jitty), G&W (S4J), and Sonic (don't remember), and decent players with most of the rest of the cast, in Oklahoma. Up to now, most of my gameplay has been neutral with Din's Fire, Nayru's, and LK, getting combos in when I can, and going for gimps with LK or dair. I'm just starting to learn the Xeldorno combo and auto-cancelling Nayru's.

Thread talking about Luigi.

As Zelda, I struggle against anyone with longer reach than her, because her approaches are bad/nonexistent. I usually ban WW and Yoshi's Story against them. They include:

• Ganondorf (but note a Ganon with platforms is spookier than one without, so Final D improves it somewhat). I don't mind playing him on Yoshi's Story on a good day, but never on WarioWare. His fair and bair beat Zelda's fair and bair, and if he just camps with them, it's a bad time. On the plus side, he is combo food.
  
• Ike (his nair beats out most things I can do, and he can combo into an off-stage fair for the KO against me)
  
• Ivysaur (whose disjoints beat Zelda in every direction, including from above, so I can't even juggle her)
  
• DDD (my experience here is limited, but he can gimp even Zelda's recovery)
• Jigglypuff (whose bair reaches farther than Zelda's, and who has greater aerial mobility to weave in and out of fairs, and for the same reason is very hard to land an up-smash on. Similarly she can just jump over Nayru's and fair me in the face)
• ZSS (maybe? I've played one match against a competent Shokio and her reach and speed did a lot)

I also struggle against anyone too small to grab, and these characters tend to automatically avoid up-smash too. They include:

• Jigglypuff
• Squirtle (who can sometimes go through Din's fire, but the most effective option I've found is dash-attack and then juggle him to death, and use d-smash as a get-off-me card)
  
• Kirby (who can't be juggled because of his down-b, and who can Inhale LK. He can also gimp Zelda with aerial side-B if I'm not careful to drop below it)

My neutral matchups:

• Diddy. My games against Uncle Taint's Diddy seem to be stage-dependent. I win on Final Destination, Norfair, and I think FoD and Dreamland. I don't recall where he wins. Our last tournament match went to 7 seconds on Dreamland, with him ahead on percent and running away from me until I got an LK for the stock.
• M2 (in theory). He likes to short-hop teleport-forward into fair or nair, but my opponent told me it's easy to read (whenever he short hops, or whenever he's at the correct horizontal spacing, assume it's that) and counter with LK. I started doing that and it worked pretty well. Note Shadow Claw (M2's fair) is forward and slightly below him, so doing a high LK is better.
• G&W (I think, haven't played enough matches to know). Yes he can bucket Din's Fire, but I can usually explode it with side-b before he can put it in the bucket, and it leaves him vulnerable to try. Zelda can jump away from his up-tilt/smash up-b combos, and I've done fine against his grabs by always assuming he's doing down-throw and inputting a tech-roll. He can't be juggled because his dair has longer range than Zelda's uair, but if he's off-stage his recovery is usually predictable (down-b, down-b, up-b, jump). S4J will always up-B before jumping because G&W can do anything out of up-B, so assume he'll do that and jump away from his combos after getting hit up in the air. A bad thing for Zelda is that (1) both G&W's fair and bair are disjointed and can beat out Zelda's fair and bair because they're faster, (2) G&W's best move is down-tilt, and he can crouch-cancel down-tilt Zelda for days, and even take a stock with it.

My good matchups:

• ROB. I lost to Jitty in the first match I ever played against a ROB, but just barely. The game I won was on FoD. Jitty likes to use down-throw into up-air, and Zelda can jump away from that. He also likes to laser off-stage opponents for the gimp/kill, and I can reflect those with Nayru's and still recover. One problem is that he can do some weird short-hop side-b fair, and then move back after the fair, so that it's nonpunishable and baits out a whiffed move.

Misc:

• Gnosis said Mario is safe all the time, but when we played a game, I stopped his approaches with Nayru's and punished him. I didn't win the game, but meh.
• Sethlon said his spacing for attacks is the same as Zelda's LK, so it's tougher to approach. However, his approach is completely different from Ashen, who loves to use L-cancelled dair-into-up-tilt, and against whom I'm about 50-50
  
• Yoshi's grounded down-B is lethal and comes out very quickly =/
• Bowser has a lethal true combo on Zelda at I think 40-100% with grab, up-throw (or is it side-B throw?), down-b-cancelled jump into up-air
• I auto-ban small stages against Lucario like Green Hill Zone and WarioWare, because it gives me less space to escape from his close-range combos.
  
• Nayru's Love shuts down most of Lucario's approaches, but he can bypass it by spending an aura on Down-B cancelled into up-tilt (and I think down-forward-tilt)

Hey, I'm relatively new to Zelda, but I do practice with a really good Lucario main a lot, and it seems like you don't have that much information on him. I can't really blame you, seeing as nobody plays Lucario. I actually always take Lucario to small stages when I can. Any stage that has a lot of open space is going to let a good Lucario combo you to ungodly percentages, and his off stage arsenal is rather impressive. That big blue ball is a hell of an edge guarding tool, and the over-B spike can't even be meteor cancelled if he empowered it (which he most likely did). That, combined with his really good recovery, make big stages with wide walls and low floors really good for a Lucario main. In my opinion, Zelda's best strategy against Lucario is to focus on maintaining stage control, and to try to kill with either brute force or by gimping with Din's. Lucario is difficult to edge guard because his recovery can be very precisely directed, and he can get back from a surprising distance away, so you want to avoid giving him that chance. Play it safe in neutral and use Din's to limit his movement. Be patient when tacking on damage; Zelda's neutral game is better than his, but Lucario can exert devastating punishes on any character. Play safe and patient until you see your chance, and then launch him with LK, F or U tilt, or a smash attack if you're feeling lucky (d-smash is pretty safe, but lacking range and the kill power of other options). If it doesn't kill right away, try your best to hit him with Din's before his up B starts up. If that fails, Farore's wind is your best edge guarding option because it covers the most space, and is thus more likely to catch him on his way back.

I hope somebody finds this useful. I just happen to know a lot about Lucario because a really good friend of mine plays a disgusting one, so I thought I'd share

 

[justanull]

That's a fairly accurate assessment of my problems I would say.

I also have trouble against this Zero Suit Samus player in my region, he's pretty good. He almost took a game off Oracle.

I have gotten him down to 1 stock many times, but to be honest I have no idea what I am doing in the matchup.

It's a very weird matchup in my opinion. I tend to think that it's Zelda favored, but I'm just playing it wrong.

Zelda-ZSS is poor for Zelda. ZSS is a dashdance character who also has a projectile to force us to approach. Her strong neutral and combo games mean that we don't even dominate the punish game like we usually do, she punishes us about as hard as we do her. Zelda doesn't have an easy answer to tether shenanigans on the ledge since she can space her landing to force us to land weak kick or a nair, both of which usually reset to neutral. Her high ground speed makes it difficult for us to approach, and her up and forward airs, along with her Paralyzer, largely negate Din's Fire. She wins super hard on large stages where she has the room to move around you; choose smaller stages and try to force her into the corner with Zelda's ability to dominate stage positioning, then abuse poor choices out of that position. Her back air is an incredible kill move, but it's high commitment in the air - she probably won't do it too close to the ledge, since she'll fall to far to make it back without doing lots of wall jumps. However, it has very low l-cancelled lag, so be careful of it on the ground since it'll kill around 100 on the stages you want to be on. When you end up on a larger stage, take advantage of stage positioning again and attempt to force her into the corner. It'll take longer because there is more space to work with, but it's the best thing you have to work with. Beware her dashdancing around your approaches and punishing you.

 

[Miryafa]

Hey, I'm relatively new to Zelda, but I do practice with a really good Lucario main a lot, and it seems like you don't have that much information on him.

Speak from your own experience. One of the people I play against the most mains Lucario.

 

[Downdraft]

Since 3.6 Zelda is the final edition, could we finish composing a draft for each matchup?
We need to review all of the summaries that were written for 3.5 and create summaries for the unwritten matchups.
Who'd be interested in joining a team of individuals to discuss 3.5 matchup summaries?

Oh, this is the thread that Skype was talking about.
Somebody asked me to make a MU chart a few days ago, so I have this.
(it was made in 15 minutes though, so some things need small changes)
http://imgur.com/yZ5ZKBx

Would you provide a short explanation regarding why Dedede, ROB, Sheik, Falcon, Fox, Mewtwo, Ivysaur, and Samus aren't lower on this list? Why do you consider Wario and Luigi -2?

 

[4tlas]

I think "complete" is a strong word.

 

[Downdraft]

I think "complete" is a strong word.

Yes, the matchup summaries will not be complete as long as there are new things for the cast to explore.

 

[Taytertot]

could still get a lot of it filled out though. some characters are more or less already figured out for example, i highly doubt that new tech is going to come out of nowhere for roy

 

[Prynne]

Slowly, but surely we shall continue our slow march to the end of this project.

Meta Knight

Spoiler

Meta Knight

Favorability
2-2.5

Good Stages
Dreamland
Norfair
Delfino’s
FD

Bad Stages
Yoshi’s Story
PS2
Warioware
Yoshi’s Island

A small space allows Meta Knight to further exploit your already abysmal movement, and decreases the number of opportunities you’ll have to telecancel in the neutral. Decent sized stages that allow you some room to breathe are ok, and definitely should be your first choice. If you do not fear death, then by all means, go to the tiny places of certain doom.


General strategy

Meta Knight, like yourself, has transcendent priority on most of his attacks, the only difference being that, because of his height and the placement of his hitboxes, he can hit you with far more ease than you can hit him. However! This also means that he must either Shield or dash attack to clank with your Din’s, as moves with transcendent priority have no effect on it. Placing a Din’s at just the right height to hit him is pivotal. Position it just above him, but just low enough that it will scrape the top of his head if he were to run under it. If you really want him to run at you, place it a little higher. If you want to prevent aerial approaches, keep it nearer the ground. This works in most situations, so long as you are aware of platform placement as well. From there, use a series of dashdances and telecancels to bait an attack and pivot grab. Your pivot grab should catch him in a series of situations where a dash grab or standing grab would just get you hit. When all else seems to be failing, a good pivot grab can do the trick.

Grabbing Meta Knight will ruin his momentum, and force him to stop his incredible movement. I suggest a dthrow, which can be used to tech chase him if you are quick enough. If you condition them to DI the dthrow enough, you can mixup with an fthrow for a regrab, free kick, or whatever it is that you want out of it.

Be very wary of your normals. Mk will frequently ignore your jab altogether, and he can CC your ftilt at lower percents. Once you have him above you, your BnB combos will work perfectly fine. Usmash until it won’t catch, then Nair or uair accordingly.

Though you don't have many direct followups into a kill, your standard tricks will do. Any well spaced kick will end the stock as usual, and fsmash can save your life in more situations than you would expect. Just be wary of attempting dtilt > utilt, for his dtilt will frequently beat yours.

Things to Look out for


Dtilt for the win– dtilt can and will beat out most of your ground options, as it comes out quite fast and has wonderous priority The only thing that can really beat it out on the ground is nayru’s if the invincibility is out. Additionally, you can read it in the air and come down with a kick, but that’s somewhat situational and very difficult to space, though it is possible, and can be abused.

Just bairly making it- if you are offstage, you must be very careful. Resist the urge to immediately teleport back to the stage. Wait for Mk to burn his offstage options, avoid his aerial, and then go to the ledge or stage as you see fit. Beware, for he can easily punish you once you are in the air at all. Bair in particular will kill you very early, and is a force to be reckoned with.

Dthrow and followups – Dthrow now automatically sends one into tumble, and can be a pain. However, it’s fairly easy to DI out of, just by holding down and away, and then teching. If you DI in, however, MK will get a free aerial followup, which is bad for you, trust me. His uair strings are strong, as is his up special. If he’s expecting you to tech, you can mixup with a suboptimal option such as no DI or DI in. It will depend upon the reaction times of the Mk.

I shall continue with Marth in the eventual future.

 

[Downdraft]

I've read a few of the matchups that are relevant to my scene and still don't know how to get in on Link or force Sheik to make mistakes. I find it difficult to remember the details of matchups without experience or extensive studying. I can get flustered easily. On that note, I've started solo practicing tech before tournaments but then don't apply or successfully execute them in tournament. If you're a technical player, how did you get comfortable with wavelanding out of aerials, wavebouncing Din's, and SHFFLing? I know the inputs, but they just haven't occurred to me when there's pressure. My movement and neutral game are unsatisfactory.

 

[4tlas]

I've read a few of the matchups that are relevant to my scene and still don't know how to get in on Link or force Sheik to make mistakes. I find it difficult to remember the details of matchups without experience or extensive studying. I can get flustered easily.

I like to alternate between reflecting Link's projectiles with land cancelled Nayrus, weaving in and out until he approaches me because Dins annoys him enough, and teleporting in on him. As for Sheik, I either read her to filth, outcamp her with Dins and reflecting/shielding needles, teleport around her, or Transform to Sheik.

On that note, I've started solo practicing tech before tournaments but then don't apply or successfully execute them in tournament. If you're a technical player, how did you get comfortable with wavelanding out of aerials, wavebouncing Din's, and SHFFLing? I know the inputs, but they just haven't occurred to me when there's pressure. My movement and neutral game are unsatisfactory.

I am not a technical player, so I might have some useful advice, actually. Play some friendlies with people. The whole entire time, consciously think about the tech you want to do.

 

[Arcalyth]

Don't forget that dash attack (and ftilt) clank, including Link's projectiles. Dash attack has saved me games vs my Link rival.

 

[Taytertot]

I've read a few of the matchups that are relevant to my scene and still don't know how to get in on Link or force Sheik to make mistakes. I find it difficult to remember the details of matchups without experience or extensive studying. I can get flustered easily. On that note, I've started solo practicing tech before tournaments but then don't apply or successfully execute them in tournament. If you're a technical player, how did you get comfortable with wavelanding out of aerials, wavebouncing Din's, and SHFFLing? I know the inputs, but they just haven't occurred to me when there's pressure. My movement and neutral game are unsatisfactory.

as 4tlas said try playing friendlies with those options in mind. id also recommend practice tech skills like those for at least 15min a day. it will truly make a huge difference if you have SHFFLing and wavebouncing ingrained into your muscle memory. just practicing before tourneys is generally not enough to make tech consistent because your brain isnt being constantly feed the information every day. once it becomes second nature you will find it much easier to do that stuff it tight situations. i try to practice every day for about 20 to 30 min and i notice a huge difference in my consistency if i put it off for a few days.

 

[Protosauce]

Can anyone give me some extra pointers vs Bowser and Kirby? I'm going to a tourney next week and there is a good chance I will eventually run into our local, Odds, who is arguably one of the best Bowsers(with multiple high placements at LTCs while abroad and wins over big names). I'm probs going to get bopped, but any extra little tidbits are really appreciated!

Also there is a really aggressive Kirby who always rolls me, and there I'm unsure of how to work around that.

 

[4tlas]

Can anyone give me some extra pointers vs Bowser and Kirby? I'm going to a tourney next week and there is a good chance I will eventually run into our local, Odds, who is arguably one of the best Bowsers(with multiple high placements at LTCs while abroad and wins over big names). I'm probs going to get bopped, but any extra little tidbits are really appreciated!

Also there is a really aggressive Kirby who always rolls me, and there I'm unsure of how to work around that.

Obviously nothing works if you do it all the time and everything has its place, but I find Dins harassment and teleporting around Bowser in neutral to be extremely effective. Whats even more effective is switching to Sheik. Thats an atrocious matchup for poor Bowser. Grab forever.

Kicking kirby in the teeth works well. Basically, he has 2 approach options: dash attack or jump and do an aerial. You can stuff dash attack easily with jab, nayrus, or spaced lightning kicks, and you can stuff aerials easily with Dins and spaced lightning kicks. Take it slow and read your opponent to filth. Kirby doesn't have enough options to overwhelm you, so stay calm.

 

[Downdraft]

Who here has Snake experience versus an equal or superior player?

I just get shield grabbed and cannot get through his wall of projectiles. I just don't understand how Zelda is supposed to counter character's ability to play keep away since land canceled Nayru's and telecanceling are such huge commitments.

 

[Arcalyth]

#10 on our PR is a Snake main and lives down the street from me.

Sheilda is an absolute must for optimal play in the Snake matchup. Transform will instantly drop a C4 off of you regardless of if you transform successfully... so say he hits you out of it or something, you still have the C4 off of you. Kamikaze tactics will often save your life in this matchup, which is sometimes hard to wrap your head around because it breaks the notions of "optimal" and "safe" play. Sometimes I'll run offstage just to drop the C4 and if he's over there camping mines and grenades, he has to approach me or detonate in order to prevent that. Mastering teleport>edge cancel will help keep you safe in such maneuvers.

The biggest threat to you is Cypher. It's hard to lay pressure on Snake because it's a really phenomenal OOS option. You have to zone him better than he zones you, which is an uphill battle because he's effectively twice as good at it. Cypher will convert into lots of damage and possibly a stock almost every time. Snake seems to have a hard time in neutral, but so does Zelda. It's really a matter of who lands the first hit most consistently, and who can play minesweeper better. The matchup as a whole is gimmicky as heck.

I'd say... in this matchup, the better tricks win. It's much less fundamental than other, more conventional/familiar matchups. Solid core play is augmented exponentially by reversing Snake's tools against him and using tricky movement. Chip away at him with Din's fire until you can land a solid ftilt or something, then combo away. He's great combo food. Hard to edgeguard though. Maybe switch to Sheik for that.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Use Sheik for edgeguarding Snake

 

[4tlas]

Arcalyth has provided great advice. I'll try to summarize/elaborate on it.

Most Snakes like to use their B button. Fortunately for you, Zelda completely negates Snake's B button. You can reflect grenades and tranqs while outcamping him with Dins, you can Transform c4 right off you (and if you are mid-teleport when it explodes you can dodge it), you can outspace the "grenade in shield" tactic with lightning kicks fairly easily, and its very easy to edgeguard Snake once you get used to Cipher, grenade, and c4 recoveries.

Many Snakes also like to use their up and down smashes as traps. Fortunately for you, Zelda completely negates those as well. You can reflect his Upsmash, and you can maneuver Dins or teleport across the downsmash to activate it easily.

So this leaves Snake with his normal attacks, which are pretty damn good. You'll have to outspace everything and keep your distance for the most part, since his moves link amazingly and are really strong. Abuse Farore's Boost and Nayru's Glide to get out of things.

And if you can play Sheik, do so. Sheilda is an absolutely devastating matchup for Snake.

 

[Arcalyth]

I'd be careful reflecting grenades. I usually get punished for it, even with LC Nayru's. Snake will bait a jump with a grenade then DACUS you. It's not always the worst option but it's usually not the best option, and when you do use it a B-reverse is probably way safer. Grenade-in-shield is also risky to approach because Snake really likes Cipher OOS. 4tlas is right in saying that you have to keep your distance for the most part.

 

[4tlas]

I'd be careful reflecting grenades. I usually get punished for it, even with LC Nayru's. Snake will bait a jump with a grenade then DACUS you. It's not always the worst option but it's usually not the best option, and when you do use it a B-reverse is probably way safer. Grenade-in-shield is also risky to approach because Snake really likes Cipher OOS. 4tlas is right in saying that you have to keep your distance for the most part.

You can reflect the DACUS too though. You can outspace Cipher OoS as well as grenade in shield. You should be careful reflecting grenades because sometimes they will explode too close to you. And also because doing anything 100% of the time is a bad idea.

 

[Arcalyth]

You can reflect the DACUS too though. You can outspace Cipher OoS as well as grenade in shield. You should be careful reflecting grenades because sometimes they will explode too close to you. And also because doing anything 100% of the time is a bad idea.

Usually the Snake I play will cook the grenades to make reflection risky. It depends. Like I said, it's not always the worst move... but if you try to reflect the grenade you generally won't have enough time to safely reflect the mortar before he's on you. There's a hitbox on the mortar launcher itself as he sets it down that will interrupt you, and once Snake is on top of you he can keep you locked down with combinations of dair/nair/jab leading into a grab/c4/utilt. I just find Nayru's risky in general against grenades, kinda like Peach turnips.

 

[4tlas]

Usually the Snake I play will cook the grenades to make reflection risky. It depends. Like I said, it's not always the worst move... but if you try to reflect the grenade you generally won't have enough time to safely reflect the mortar before he's on you. There's a hitbox on the mortar launcher itself as he sets it down that will interrupt you, and once Snake is on top of you he can keep you locked down with combinations of dair/nair/jab leading into a grab/c4/utilt. I just find Nayru's risky in general against grenades, kinda like Peach turnips.

There are times when its safe and times when its not, and its hard to explain outside of "at this height/spacing/timing it will work and at this combination it wont". Forcing Snake to do grenades and mortars in a way that can't be reflected is an advantage in itself. Sometimes he will have to do it in a reflectable way so you don't expect it and would therefore theoretically get hit by it, and then you can reflect it. Same goes for Turnips. And if you never show your opponent that you can and will reflect it, you don't force them into the scenarios where you can't. Sometimes you can use it as bait. Sometimes they will use it as bait and if you can read that then you've just baited them after all.

Its an option that can and should be used when its the correct option. I suppose my original post did not specify that it is sometimes not the correct option, but I generally assume that everyone knows nothing works 100% of the time nor 0% of the time. Even Sheik's PM chain works occasionally.

 

[Kneato]

Matchup from 's Perspective (+3 has Zelda winning)

+3:
+2:
+1:
0:
-1:

-2:
-3:


What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

Not my opinion. This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.

 

[Arcalyth]

Charizard +1
Marth -1 or 0
D3 0
Yoshi 0
Rob +1
Bowser +1
Ganon +1
Sheik 0
Link 0
Ivy -1
Ike -1
MK -1
Snake 0
Ness 0
Lucario 0

I think I agree with the rest though.