Zelda Matchup Anthology

[4tlas]

What do you think I did for the 10 matchups I wrote, especially the 7 recent ones?
This project won't be done well if at all without people stepping up to at least contribute matchups. Our boards have been quieter lately, and there's little we can do to positively influence other's activity, but we must consider that there are lurkers and guests that visit our boards, and an incomplete thread like this can be disappointing. In a game where all 41 characters see tournament play, this guide as it stands right now might not be even be that helpful. The completed matchups also can become inaccurate over time. 3.6 Beta saw changes to some matchups and the stage list, but discussions regarding how the OP should be updated have not occurred.

My point is that I don't want to contribute because without peer review my opinion will either be a) gospel or b) overwritten entirely and a waste of time. I didn't want to participate in this project when it started and I still don't want to. As much as I would love to do something for the community, I don't think this is it. I also am rather swamped with Smash stuff as-is due to running Smashing Grounds, sorry!

 

[ECHOnce]

This project won't be done well if at all without people stepping up to at least contribute matchups. Our boards have been quieter lately, and there's little we can do to positively influence other's activity, but we must consider that there are lurkers and guests that visit our boards, and an incomplete thread like this can be disappointing.

My point is that I don't want to contribute because without peer review my opinion will either be a) gospel or b) overwritten entirely and a waste of time.

Both reasonable standpoints. Throwing out ideas or questions about MUs that aren't currently being discussed should be more welcomed, so we don't feel obligated to wait until the current discussion on say...Charizard or whoever else ends lol. We're capable of multitasking if it comes down to it. Let's just throw them out there. Just in general, we should be sharing our opinions really quick on any MU we're experienced in as soon as it comes up. Even if it's a minor tidbit or +1'ing someone else's points. Like 4tlas was worried about, we're bound to misspeak how MUs work individually, but if we can actually get people on here, the majority opinion or discussion will weed them out easily.

@WhiteLightnin iirc...at one point someone mentioned that a major reason why we don't get as much discussion here or on some of the other major Zelda threads may be because SmashBoards stops notifying you about watched threads if you missed the most recent 3-5 notifications. Which happens really easily if anyone takes even a short break (a week). We should tag everyone in the socials and suggest un-watching + re-watching all the threads they're still interested in contributing to...it's a shame we're losing activity to something like this (even if it is a minor difference).

In a game where all 41 characters see tournament play, this guide as it stands right now might not be even be that helpful. The completed matchups also can become inaccurate over time. 3.6 Beta saw changes to some matchups and the stage list, but discussions regarding how the OP should be updated have not occurred.

At least in terms of organizing the interface, maybe we could get in the habit of just keeping each individual post on MU descriptions in spoiler tags, instead of having one overarching description that summarizes each of them. That way we could timestamp each post/discussion and link them, so it's easier for readers to both follow the discussion, and see if an MU may be outdated or not without having to check for everyone's opinion and labeling it as such. Alternatively, we could just have summaries for each version I guess...either way works, just figured that the latter would save you the time having to summarize everyone's posts (just snipping the key points from posts and listing them instead).

Example: (also including some suggestions to changing the format for new posts - no need to trouble ourselves changing old ones - that may make it a bit easier/quicker to bullet point the ideas from discussion)

Charizard

Spoiler: 3.6 ....... 08/03/15 - (ongoing)

(I had a premonition. Worship me when it happens tomorrow kappa.)

Spoiler: 3.6β ..... 08/01/15

Attribution:
Posts #191-197 by Getsafe, 4tlas, Downdraft.

Videos:
---

Favorability:
(we should try convert to a more commonly-used metric, like the alpha MU thread's, which follows suit with many other MU charts that use -3 to +3 as their scale. Having 0 as an even MU instead of 3 seems a bit more intuitive.)

Good/Bad Stages:
---

Neutral Game:
(Strategy that goes on in neutral; on-stage stuff. I'd prefer to use a term that's more inclusive of neutral game and advantageous/disadvantageous interactions for follow-ups and all, but can't think of any. Maybe just on-stage game but we should probably stick to common smash terms.)

Edge Game:
(similar to Neutral Game; this one works more easily as an umbrella term, since it doesn't imply neutral/advantageous/disadvantageous interaction. Just refers to location, but is straightforward in inferring points on edgeguarding and recovery.)

Things to Look Out For:
(This seems to go back and forth between being TL;DR notes that could be included in the strategy sections, but were moved here because descriptions of setups are less reader-friendly than just listing the inputs neatly elsewhere. Maybe it could be renamed, or we could have more distinction)

Spoiler: 3.5 ....... 00/00/00 - 00/00/00

(Where the current descriptions in the OP, unless they've already been updated. This way we can keep a log/archive and don't have to lose write-ups while replacing things that we think have changed, from meta or updates; helps to avoid losing sections of MU summaries if our opinions go back and forth on over time.)

EDIT: just in case my intention wasn't clear (long post so I'm hoping I didn't word it badly at the start lol), I was putting this alternate interface/formatting out there as a suggestion; one that might be more encouraging for generating "casual"/less formal/your-opinions-can't-be-liable-to-change-feel-the-pressure-muwahaha-RIP posts discussion, and/or less time-consuming to summarize (since...I don't think you've said it anywhere, but as far as I can tell, the OP post's MU descriptions look like they took ages to summarize. Massive props, but I'd imagine it's a lot of work to place on yourself alone.)

 

[Downdraft]

Well it wouldn't be on me since I don't have thread ownership; however, I have called for a Skype call in the near future. Hopefully some of the Skype Zeldas will answer that call, so we can at least refine what we have.

 

[ECHOnce]

Well it wouldn't be on me since I don't have thread ownership; however, I have called for a Skype call in the near future. Hopefully some of the Skype Zeldas will answer that call, so we can at least refine what we have.

Whoops...forgot lol. Welp, it's discussion/proposals on it at least, which is what you suggested.

 

[Downdraft]

Whoops...forgot lol. Welp, it's discussion/proposals on it at least, which is what you suggested.

@ Prynne are you taking a hiatus from this project?

 

[Prynne]

@ Prynne are you taking a hiatus from this project?

An unofficial one. I'll update the OP hopefully sooner rather than later. I completely forgot to last time I said I would. Hopefully, I can reclaim the ability to focus on this project. Thanks for the poke, though.

 

[Downdraft]

Does Captain Falcon actually have bad stages versus Zelda? YouTube videos and Zhime's stream from last night suggest that Falcon wins on every stage. D-throw and N-air spell death for Zelda, and he has the mobility to punish Zelda quickly and continue combos even if she's launched far or onto a distant platform. I'm thinking the matchup's favorability should be a 2.

 

[ECHOnce]

Does Captain Falcon actually have bad stages versus Zelda? YouTube videos and Zhime's stream from last night suggest that Falcon wins on every stage. D-throw and N-air spell death for Zelda, and he has the mobility to punish Zelda quickly and continue combos even if she's launched far or onto a distant platform. I'm thinking the matchup's favorability should be a 2.

I don't usually go Zelda against Falcons, but if it comes to it I try go to FoD. Falcon's are scariest when they have a lot of space to move around, or at least don't feel restricted by any oddities, like the changing platform layout. We also get the usual U-smash through platform jazz. Stage boundaries...sorta? work in our favor, since Falcon's is poop and the floor is super low for us (although he gets easy side-boundary kills if he gets a string on us at low-ish %s). There's prob better options, but as I said I don't usually go Zelda vs. Falcon lol. idk where else I'd take him. Maybe if I played the MU a bit more I'd feel confident taking him to longer stages with platforms you can hide around, but that he can't easily use for setups/keepaway. Smashville or PS2? But not too long/large of a stage to give him too much space.

In general...it feels like both characters characters are worried about getting hit, since we both have a touch of death against each other's character weights. As far as I can tell, his main advantage in the MU is just his movement, which lets him mix up his (quicker) approaches more easily, and net him more frequent 0-to-death opportunities than us. But since he's as much of combo food to us as we are to him, if we make it scarier to approach us, it can help balance that out a bit. Every time I knock him away,I either set up a large Din in the opposite direction, or a small Din near him, and then I sandwich him between me and the Din once he gets up from hitstun/knockdown. For large Dins you have enough time to get around him, and he usually will just jump over the small to try approach. Din splodes, comes back and limits his space. Try mixing up how (quick+long LKs, quick grounded normals, implied teleport pressure, or lengthy LC Nayrus) and when you go in for a punish based on how close the Din is to him, so you can figure out where his comfort zones/reactions are. And remember the role the din plays - it's just a moving hitbox for zoning. You can accomplish the same thing while it's coming back; just throw out a bunch of LKs and U-airs that you know are going to whiff near him, and he might slightly panic and run into your Din as it comes back. You can also just use it as a chance to re-position yourself to center stage or near plats. Mixing up the path the Din takes on it's return can be good too; having it loop downwards and head to you straight horizontally to force him off the ground, or having it loop upwards on a tri-platform stage to force him away from a lower plat as it comes back to you diagonally.

 

[Downdraft]

I don't usually go Zelda against Falcons, but if it comes to it I try go to FoD. Falcon's are scariest when they have a lot of space to move around, or at least don't feel restricted by any oddities, like the changing platform layout. We also get the usual U-smash through platform jazz. Stage boundaries...sorta? work in our favor, since Falcon's is poop and the floor is super low for us (although he gets easy side-boundary kills if he gets a string on us at low-ish %s). There's prob better options, but as I said I don't usually go Zelda vs. Falcon lol. idk where else I'd take him. Maybe if I played the MU a bit more I'd feel confident taking him to longer stages with platforms you can hide around, but that he can't easily use for setups/keepaway. Smashville or PS2? But not too long/large of a stage to give him too much space.

In general...it feels like both characters characters are worried about getting hit, since we both have a touch of death against each other's character weights. As far as I can tell, his main advantage in the MU is just his movement, which lets him mix up his (quicker) approaches more easily, and net him more frequent 0-to-death opportunities than us. But since he's as much of combo food to us as we are to him, if we make it scarier to approach us, it can help balance that out a bit. Every time I knock him away,I either set up a large Din in the opposite direction, or a small Din near him, and then I sandwich him between me and the Din once he gets up from hitstun/knockdown. For large Dins you have enough time to get around him, and he usually will just jump over the small to try approach. Din splodes, comes back and limits his space. Try mixing up how (quick+long LKs, quick grounded normals, implied teleport pressure, or lengthy LC Nayrus) and when you go in for a punish based on how close the Din is to him, so you can figure out where his comfort zones/reactions are. And remember the role the din plays - it's just a moving hitbox for zoning. You can accomplish the same thing while it's coming back; just throw out a bunch of LKs and U-airs that you know are going to whiff near him, and he might slightly panic and run into your Din as it comes back. You can also just use it as a chance to re-position yourself to center stage or near plats. Mixing up the path the Din takes on it's return can be good too; having it loop downwards and head to you straight horizontally to force him off the ground, or having it loop upwards on a tri-platform stage to force him away from a lower plat as it comes back to you diagonally.

Thanks for the advice. I believe the bold part is an understatement. From footage mainly, it appears Falcon's combos can pretty much ignore the stage. Zelda's punish game is heavily dependent on platforms not being available for the opponent to tech. I think Captain Falcon has a much easier time continuing strings once Zelda techs, rolls, or does a get up attack on platforms than Zelda does largely because he has much better mobility for followups. He can carry Zelda across any stage. Zelda can't carry him across half the stage reliably unless she has room for chain U-throws, Dash attacks, and U-smashes. Final Destination is the only stage where Zelda can 0-death Falcon without potential interference. "More frequent opportunities" is several times as many since he doesn't really have to commit in the matchup. Also, D-throw is busted on floaties. I wouldn't have an issue with the throw if it wasn't a guaranteed combo into Knee.

 

[4tlas]

DI out on dthrow, should get you out more often than not. Don't remember if I have to Farore's Boost as well.

As for stages, long flat ones with low platforms or no platforms is good for Zelda here. So I'd say GHZ, FoD, SV, FD, DS. Small stages Falcon can upair you off the stage, large stages he can run circles around you. To even up the matchup as much as possible, take him to a small stage so he can't maneuver but make sure there are no platforms so his approaches are obvious and your punishes are deadly. Alternatively, take him to a medium stage with platforms so they get in his way and just techchase him to death. Another alternative is to take him to a huge stage, but make sure there are no platforms so he can't maneuver and you destroy him with one touch.

 

[noobftw]

I play the rank 4 falcon in my area all the time. And the stages don't matter much. FD is like a double edged sword. You have a pretty linear recovery but can zero to death him. But falcon is free to run around all he wants. If he chooses to just dash dance camp you on FD you really can't do much from what I learned. I usually picked GHZ, SV, FD, and FoD since those are the ones where I can combo him the best.
Also dthrow knee is basically confirmed at like 70-90 percent.
The whole we can kill falcon in a zero to death is really eh to me. I taught my friend to smash DI the upsmash and stuff and basically zelda has to LK at like 60-70 into an edgeguard. If the stage is big enough then it doesn't always do the trick. To me platforms benefit falcon way more than zelda so a lot of stages do benefit falcon.

 

[ECHOnce]

I play the rank 4 falcon in my area all the time. And the stages don't matter much. FD is like a double edged sword. You have a pretty linear recovery but can zero to death him. But falcon is free to run around all he wants. If he chooses to just dash dance camp you on FD you really can't do much from what I learned. I usually picked GHZ, SV, FD, and FoD since those are the ones where I can combo him the best.
Also dthrow knee is basically confirmed at like 70-90 percent.
The whole we can kill falcon in a zero to death is really eh to me. I taught my friend to smash DI the upsmash and stuff and basically zelda has to LK at like 60-70 into an edgeguard. If the stage is big enough then it doesn't always do the trick. To me platforms benefit falcon way more than zelda so a lot of stages do benefit falcon.

Yeah I usually go for those three during CP, maybe PS2 as my last resort instead of FD (unless he works better there than I think he does, idk). 0-to-death is an exaggeration, but if you land a few hits into an edgeguard situation, he should already be dead (especially if he's at mid %s). We have the tools to stuff his recovery from 0% til he gives up, so an off-stage Falcon should be a dead Falcon to us, unless we don't react in time or flub up.

 

[4tlas]

I play the rank 4 falcon in my area all the time. And the stages don't matter much. FD is like a double edged sword. You have a pretty linear recovery but can zero to death him. But falcon is free to run around all he wants. If he chooses to just dash dance camp you on FD you really can't do much from what I learned. I usually picked GHZ, SV, FD, and FoD since those are the ones where I can combo him the best.
Also dthrow knee is basically confirmed at like 70-90 percent.
The whole we can kill falcon in a zero to death is really eh to me. I taught my friend to smash DI the upsmash and stuff and basically zelda has to LK at like 60-70 into an edgeguard. If the stage is big enough then it doesn't always do the trick. To me platforms benefit falcon way more than zelda so a lot of stages do benefit falcon.

Platforms block his movement, which is a pretty big deal. His techrolls are also so bad you should be able to platform techchase pretty easily. On the other hand, platforms also give him movement options through wavelands and ledgecancel Falcon Kick. The trick is to know when he's blocked and know when he has extra options (he'll probably take them).

When there's no platforms, Falcon's approach is very linear. If they play at midrange with you, alternate between foxtrot toward them and retreating lightning kick. If they are far away, place a Dins to harass or pressure. If they get hit by Dins, keep harassing them with it until they approach with their obvious momentum leap which you can just stuff with jab. If they let Dins be, teleport in on them and use it to limit their options. Zelda has better movement on FD than most characters due to teleport, abuse it.

As I said, smaller stages are better because you will get them offstage with your one combo. But even on FD you can place a Dins to corner them and then return to your advantageous neutral.

Don't forget you can DI out into Farore's Boost all of his throws. I'm starting to think this matchup isn't that bad (still in Falcon's favor) as I play more and more Falcons.

 

[noobftw]

Oh wow I feel the complete opposite. Although I tend to beat a lot of the lower level falcons since they don't know the match up. But whenever I play a falcon around my level or a little better I just see how falcon can just dominate the match up if they learn it.
Also DI'ing away and farore's boost doesn't work at like 80 percent. I've tried it already.

 

[4tlas]

Oh wow I feel the complete opposite. Although I tend to beat a lot of the lower level falcons since they don't know the match up. But whenever I play a falcon around my level or a little better I just see how falcon can just dominate the match up if they learn it.
Also DI'ing away and farore's boost doesn't work at like 80 percent. I've tried it already.

I swear I Farore's boost out of dthrow all the time, at every percent. I'll try and pay attention next time I vs. Falcon.

 

[Magus420]

If you DI the d-throw diagonally down-away (a little more away than the diagonal notch is even better) the knee doesn't combo. If you get the DI on it you have a couple frames to act before they can reach with a frame perfect knee at 70-90. You can DJ straight up or up-towards to avoid and get above a SH knee (NOT away though, as that back jump animation puts your legs forward into the knee's range), and her jump doesn't rise fast enough that you'd be jumping into a FJ knee if they do that instead.

Farore's boost seems similar in effectiveness, maybe a tad worse at the lower damages? DI away is only a little worse than down-away, so it's enough at higher damages to allow a jump out, but not near 70. It's easy to get a frame perfect jump by using tap jump since it triggers a jump across a 4 frame window because of how smash inputs work (for jumping out of stuff in the air I do tap jump + roll from X->Y buttons to get lots of jump inputs in).

D-throw u-air is a combo though.

 

[noobftw]

Okay I learned something new thanks magus :D. The falcon player just told me to DI away ... and every time I jumped or tried something I'd get knee'd. If DI'ing the way you said works then thanks I'll try that. Also my tap jump is off so I guess I have to do it frame perfectly.
So no farore's boost at 70-90?
Also would the same apply to ike? Cause when I play against ike it feels like the same thing except his fair is like a combination of falcon's knee and upair at once T_T

 

[Prynne]

After months, I have finally updated the OP. Sorry for the massive delay. I'll get to work on the MK and Marth matchups promptly!

 

[noobftw]

I'd love people's opinions and tips on the ness match up. From what they tell me, zelda has the advantage but I don't think so. I think of it more even.
I train with a ness all the time so I have a general idea of what to do or try to do. But other opinions and tips are definitely welcome.

 

[4tlas]

I'd love people's opinions and tips on the ness match up. From what they tell me, zelda has the advantage but I don't think so. I think of it more even.
I train with a ness all the time so I have a general idea of what to do or try to do. But other opinions and tips are definitely welcome.

I train with a Ness all the time, and though he is a better player than I am I still do slightly better than even. I also do fairly well against multiple different Nesses in our region with vastly distinctive playstyles. I don't know how to explain why Zelda has the advantage in this matchup, as it seems to be a combination of a lot of small things rather than any one obvious thing. For example, Zelda outreaches Ness in a large variety of scenarios, Ness can neither outcamp nor pressure Zelda, Ness has trouble killing floaties (and especially Zelda due to Farore's boost) while Zelda has no trouble edgeguarding/killing Ness, and Zelda can outmaneuver Ness with teleports easily. The only advantage Ness has is the projectile game, since PK Fire is usable at a moments notice and leads into amazing combos while Dins Fire gets double absorbed for ridiculous amounts of hp.

I find all Nesses readable, and that is the key to defeating them soundly. Most Ness players like playing Ness for his weird movement options and great combos. Due to both of those being such strong categories for him, there are multiple different ways to use and abuse each. Ultimately, though, each Ness player will be better at some of those ways and prefer to use those. Recognizing and countering this playstyle is important. I recommend starting a match by throwing out a Dins or teleporting around like crazy to see how they react.

 

[noobftw]

I train with a Ness all the time, and though he is a better player than I am I still do slightly better than even. I also do fairly well against multiple different Nesses in our region with vastly distinctive playstyles. I don't know how to explain why Zelda has the advantage in this matchup, as it seems to be a combination of a lot of small things rather than any one obvious thing. For example, Zelda outreaches Ness in a large variety of scenarios, Ness can neither outcamp nor pressure Zelda, Ness has trouble killing floaties (and especially Zelda due to Farore's boost) while Zelda has no trouble edgeguarding/killing Ness, and Zelda can outmaneuver Ness with teleports easily. The only advantage Ness has is the projectile game, since PK Fire is usable at a moments notice and leads into amazing combos while Dins Fire gets double absorbed for ridiculous amounts of hp.

I find all Nesses readable, and that is the key to defeating them soundly. Most Ness players like playing Ness for his weird movement options and great combos. Due to both of those being such strong categories for him, there are multiple different ways to use and abuse each. Ultimately, though, each Ness player will be better at some of those ways and prefer to use those. Recognizing and countering this playstyle is important. I recommend starting a match by throwing out a Dins or teleporting around like crazy to see how they react.

The Nesses I've played all focus on dash dancing and punish game more so. They don't go for as many flashy things and are very sound at punish game. They also have very good pressure. Maybe it's the skill difference for this one?

I also find it hard to edgeguard sometimes for some reason. Lightning kicks are very precise so sometimes I do miss the sweet spot. Also they have a lot of float and can ledge cancel so I'd love tips on things to do to edgeguard ness!
Thanks for your insight though.

 

[4tlas]

The Nesses I've played all focus on dash dancing and punish game more so. They don't go for as many flashy things and are very sound at punish game. They also have very good pressure. Maybe it's the skill difference for this one?

I also find it hard to edgeguard sometimes for some reason. Lightning kicks are very precise so sometimes I do miss the sweet spot. Also they have a lot of float and can ledge cancel so I'd love tips on things to do to edgeguard ness!
Thanks for your insight though.

Use dins to force them to recover a certain direction (or bait out the magnet and explode it on them). Once they have lost their jump they are stuck using PKThunder. If you can jump out and lightning kick them during the startup, do it. If you can't, put a dins on them (or eat the lightning ball with it if you can, but be careful not to have the return trajectory hit them out of special fall after). Rinse and repeat. If they do manage to get off PKThunder2, remember the first half of the move is invuln and the second half is easilybeat out by anything. Just lightning kick them out of it and do it all over again. They may start opting to recover high, in which case Zelda can easily jump into them and lightning kick no matter which way they drift or just upair if you get the chance.

 

[ECHOnce]

Only throw out Dins at the start of the match, or be prepared to make them feel threatened from before they use Psi Magnet. Otherwise, you're giving them free % recovery and it won't scare them at all. Even as a fairly close proximity Zelda, I have a hard time keeping up the pressure necessary for Dins in this MU. I usually just use them at the start of their stocks when it didn't matter, or to distract/lure them away from me if I need space and they're not too close. Otherwise I just use Tele/Nayrus/LK-pressure.

Idk tho. I'm still getting almost JV5'ed by Aki whenever I go Zelda (12%...). ****ing nasty pressure. Still putting my hope into Crow to show me how to play this MU in person ;___;

 

[Mentor]

For dins, just keep dins moving to make it harder to PKM. Keep it small so it moves @ top speed. Don't keep it too high in the air, I put it either between ness's head & the lower platform or right on the ground. Make sure its velocity vector is down right before u end setting it up so that it travels across the ground (or better yet, under the stage). That's what's worked for me every time.

 

[4tlas]

For dins, just keep dins moving to make it harder to PKM. Keep it small so it moves @ top speed. Don't keep it too high in the air, I put it either between ness's head & the lower platform or right on the ground. Make sure its velocity vector is down right before u end setting it up so that it travels across the ground (or better yet, under the stage). That's what's worked for me every time.

I think that makes it easier to magnet. I prefer to make it huge which makes the mine and explosion radii have the greatest distance possible, which helps with spacing the explosion to hit before they absorb and disable it.

 

[Prynne]

I don't think Din's is what you have to worry about in the Ness matchup. At least not too much. Obviously it's oftentimes an integral part of your neutral, and yeah, it's good for general Zoning, and blah blah blah blah everything you've heard a thousand times before.
Really though, if you don't want him healing off of it, you do not need to use Din's as vigorously as you may think.

Think of this- it isn't like Ness is particularly fast or has particularly good range. For example, almost all of your normals will outrange his through sheer arm and leg length. Of course, even though his platform movement and ground speed and aerial mobility are all superior, they aren't enough to completely floor you. Wait for him to try something silly, like a DJC fair, and then punish it accordingly, with an ftilt or an usmash, or a straight up grab, or a lightning kick... the possibilities are limited only to your imagination and reaction time.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

What's the final verdict on the Yoshi MU? I'm still receiving mixed signals.

 

[ZGE]

What's the final verdict on the Yoshi MU? I'm still receiving mixed signals.

I hear most Yoshi mains complain about the Zelda matchup quite a bit. I've played against a decent Yoshi a little bit in the past.

I think Zelda wins this, though not by as much as the Yoshi's think. Yoshi is great combo fodder for Zelda, though he does have a lot of tricky movement options especially with platforms. Watch out for his command grab, as its range is quite long and the attack itself is hard to react to (though possible). Your normal Zelda stuff should work: Yoshi is right in the middle of the cast as far as running speed, so you can throw out Din's without too much trouble. Remember that he has double jump subtractive armor. I'm not sure what percentage lightning kicks break it but I want to say it's in the 60's or 70's range. Yoshi can also mix up his recovery by using his side b egg. Dtilt has set knockback and is useful as a "gtfo" move, so always be aware of its range.

As far as your general game plan goes, keep him out with Din's and make him approach. He's not great at approaching and his eggs, while annoying, aren't really that great of a projectile unless he's continuing a combo or camping the ledge.

Uh... not sure what else to say. There's a lot more that could be said, but my experience against Yoshis is quite limited. tldr I think Zelda wins.

 

[Vitriform]

I hear most Yoshi mains complain about the Zelda matchup quite a bit. I've played against a decent Yoshi a little bit in the past.

I think Zelda wins this, though not by as much as the Yoshi's think. Yoshi is great combo fodder for Zelda, though he does have a lot of tricky movement options especially with platforms. Watch out for his command grab, as its range is quite long and the attack itself is hard to react to (though possible). Your normal Zelda stuff should work: Yoshi is right in the middle of the cast as far as running speed, so you can throw out Din's without too much trouble. Remember that he has double jump subtractive armor. I'm not sure what percentage lightning kicks break it but I want to say it's in the 60's or 70's range. Yoshi can also mix up his recovery by using his side b egg. Dtilt has set knockback and is useful as a "gtfo" move, so always be aware of its range.

As far as your general game plan goes, keep him out with Din's and make him approach. He's not great at approaching and his eggs, while annoying, aren't really that great of a projectile unless he's continuing a combo or camping the ledge.

Uh... not sure what else to say. There's a lot more that could be said, but my experience against Yoshis is quite limited. tldr I think Zelda wins.

I agree with this. In 3.5, I would have called the matchup even, but with the nerfs to Yoshi in 3.6b and 3.6, I think the matchup has tipped a bit in Zelda's favor. I'd put favorability at 3.5 (roughly 55:45), assuming the scale outlined by Prynne in the original post.

 

[noobftw]

I would think it's even from when I played the ranked yoshi player in my area. It's mostly on who doesn't respect the other person's match up.

 

[4tlas]

I find Yoshi easy. I think part of that is me reading the particular Yoshi players I encounter, but the matchup itself still feels in her favor. Make him approach, combo him to hell, easy edgeguards.

 

[Kaeldiar]

The falcon player just told me to DI away ... and every time I jumped or tried something I'd get knee'd. /quote]
"Just DI away" -Every Melee player ever

Yeah...unlike Melee, PM has far too much % dependency and MU dependency for things to be so simple. I actually find that "away" gets me hit 9/10 times. The proper DI almost always seems to be diagonal for combos.

 

[TacoLord9000]

The Squirlte matchup is literally the manifestation of hell. The only way to deal with this matchup is to spam Din's fire and try to play defensively as possible, but honestly even that doesn't help that much. If the squirtle player is good you will never be able to grab him.

At the end of the day you just have to hope that he is dumb enough to run into your random f-smashes that you throw out. I could rant more about this matchup but honestly just pick another character to deal with him.

I use to deal with him.

 

[4tlas]

The Squirlte matchup is literally the manifestation of hell. The only way to deal with this matchup is to spam Din's fire and try to play defensively as possible, but honestly even that doesn't help that much. If the squirtle player is good you will never be able to grab him.

At the end of the day you just have to hope that he is dumb enough to run into your random f-smashes that you throw out. I could rant more about this matchup but honestly just pick another character to deal with him.

I use to deal with him.

Fortunately our top player who mains Squirtle has dropped him in favor of Lucas, so we have literally 0 Squirtles in my region. I spam teleports and dins until I can condition my opponent into (or notice they naturally have) a pattern and then I punish them with reads. Might not be good enough against a great Squirtle, but maybe it is.

Edit: Oh and I play Sheik too. Neither is very good vs Squirtle but Sheik is better.

 

[Taytertot]

im a roy main and I dont know how to fight zelda as roy. what should i be doing?

 

[Kaeldiar]

im a roy main and I dont know how to fight zelda as roy. what should i be doing?

DI'ing her moves properly, but otherwise just doing Roy things. As far as I recall, Roy's gameplan doesn't change drastically against Zelda. You can CC most of her kit. She dies pretty early to f-smash and b-air, and she gets juggled pretty easily. You will get combo'd pretty hard, though. Some of that is inescapable, especially if you DI the beginning wrong

 

[Getsafe]

Yeah everything Kael said.
Don't let us touch you at all. Roy is a light fast faller, which is the class our punish game is most effective on.

Spacing is key here. Don't get grabbed, don't fall into Upsmashes, get rid of dins whenever you can safely do so (clang it with non committal sword moves)

 

[Taytertot]

thanks guys. my issue is that even when i get in i dont find it easy to deal out a lot of damage due to her floatiness. and if zelda sets up dins while im close to her and her dins puts me in the middle of it and her then im a bit screwed. im also not used to her spacing tools. How do i punish her tilts and grounded defense moves?

 

[Getsafe]

She doesn't have a whole lot of non committal options in neutral, use your superior range and movement to bait out laggy moves and then punish.

http://youtu.be/BNoy1Z4H4IM
I think oracles Zelda is pretty basic tbh. His neutral is decent/good but he kinda flubbed his punishes in this set, compared to the nastiness she can pull off in this MU. Pay attention to what sethlon does though, lots of careful poking and then taking punishes to the bank.

I'd say the MU is pretty even, slight advantage Roy

 

[Justbngoode]

Oh, this is the thread that Skype was talking about.
Somebody asked me to make a MU chart a few days ago, so I have this.
(it was made in 15 minutes though, so some things need small changes)
http://imgur.com/yZ5ZKBx