Zelda Matchup Anthology

[Prynne]

Aside from February, month's are 30-31 days. That's what I was using. 10 a week will get you there. The Zelda matchup can be answered by looking around this board and is the least important matchup to cover.

I suppose you are correct there. We'll put that on hold, at the very least.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Wolf! Please feel free to pitch in on where this guide may be lacking or to correct some things!

Favorability
4 on a good stage, 2 on a bad stage, so overall 3

Good Stages
Final Destination
Smashville
Dreamland
Green Hill Zone
Fountain of Dreams

Bad Stages
Warioware
Yoshi’s Brawl
Yoshi’s Melee
~PS2

His primary killers are Wolf Flash (side-b) and f-air. f-air kills off the top, and Flash off the side, so that causes a few problems when finding stages. Either way, you want some space to get away, but not if he starts spamming lasers. Small stages with lots of platforms (YS, WW) are terrible, because you have NO room to get away, and you will die. Fountain is a toss-up, because the platforms might help or hurt you, as will the short sides. PS2 is okay, but more in his favor. The wide stage means you don’t die from Flash as easily, but he won’t die from kick as well. The low ceiling definitely favors him.

General Strategy
Another spacie, so...GRAB HIM! Up-throw > up-smash can chain together in a 0-death on FD (and Smashville/GHZ if the platform is out of the way). If not a 0-death, you can still combo him VERY hard. Lightning Kick, d-smash, and f-smash will be your primary killers. Up-throw > up-smash shenanigans will lead into kick pretty easily.

Use up-smash OoS and roll to get out of shield pressure (mostly n-air shine), and be sure to tech on d-airs. LC Nayru’s is very good in neutral, but he CAN punish it if he’s smart, so you’ll need to be careful if he starts to get a read on you. F-tilt, of course, is a nice combo starter as well, though high commitment.

Din’s is your friend. Din’s on the ground can extend and start tech chases. Din’s in the air doesn’t help you a whole lot, as he can quickly n-air to get rid of it. Additionally, the wisp hitbox is quite useful for messing up his very good dash dance game. If you can, try to keep a Din’s out at all times. D-throw > Din’s on the tech away can give you the ability to follow up with something else.

As far as edgeguarding goes, BE CAREFUL. Wolf Flash is faster than up-b, and is thus his go-to. Additionally, his up-b has significantly less start-up lag than Fox and Falco’s. Do not get hit by Wolf Flash when trying to edgeguard, that burst speed can cause you problems, but Nayru’s is Nayru’s :D f-smash is a fantastic edgeguarder. You can actually d-air him out of up-b with relative ease if you’re there early and prepared for it, but more often than not, you’ll want to stay on stage and use Nayru’s or f-smash and set up a Din’s.

Things to look out for
Lasers: The increased speed and range on his lasers gave him a great way to shut you down. They remain in the air while he is moving around, which means he can wait for your reaction and punish accordingly.

Flashwalking: On sloped stages, he can use wolf flash on the ground, then slip right back to where he started, giving him the ability to use Wolf Flash effectively non-commitally. This is a huge reason to ban both Yoshi’s.

DI mix-ups: His d-throw and b-throw look pretty similar (watch for the backflip on his b-throw), and they send at approximately the same angle to either side of him. You’ll usually want to both of them DOWN AND AWAY, to prevent d-air, f-air, and b-air follow-ups. At high%, you might actually want to DI his b-throw straight up, because it will start to lead into Flash.

Videos
Linked to skip the 6 minute Zelda v Puff match.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfQ34E5C5bU#t=7m33s

Attribution
Adrian…whose technical skill and knowledge of frame data is matched only by M2K. He’s a local Wolf player that has spoken with me extensively on the MU and played me in tournament far more times than we are comfortable with.

 

[Prynne]

So are we good on the Ivysaur Matchup? I'm going to begin my various writeups very soon.

Edit: Also, the Wolf matchup? Anything anyone would like to add or alter?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Edit: Also, the Wolf matchup? Anything anyone would like to add or alter?

Added a video that was conveniently posted this morning

EDIT: I can take the Ganon MU. Got some serious practice and videos this past weekly, and I can talk to Junebug about it

 

[Downdraft]

So are we good on the Ivysaur Matchup? I'm going to begin my various writeups very soon.

Edit: Also, the Wolf matchup? Anything anyone would like to add or alter?

I haven't received enough feedback on this board or the Samus board regarding her matchup, and I'm not sure if I should do Link since I haven't faced it much recently, had much success with, or asked the Link board for help.

 

[Prynne]

I haven't received enough feedback on this board or the Samus board regarding her matchup, and I'm not sure if I should do Link since I haven't faced it much recently, had much success with, or asked the Link board for help.

Yeah, no problem. If anything, I can have someone else do Link if you'd rather not do it, but just try to get Samus out of the way if you can.

 

[Downdraft]

Yeah, no problem. If anything, I can have someone else do Link if you'd rather not do it, but just try to get Samus out of the way if you can.

I asked the Samus boards for help Saturday and haven't really gotten any help.
I posted a link to some recent matches of mine in the video thread and go areas for improvement but not matchup advice.

 

[D e l t a]

Trying to find some stuff on the Lucas vs Zelda MU. Currently playing this MU many times and getting slightly frustrated with how dumb it is. I keep learning something almost every time, but I'm still losing terribly. I know this is a guide for Zelda players to understand the other character's strengths / weakness, but I feel somewhat helpless going into this MU. If anybody could provide further insight that would be helpful.

From what I know:

This MU is volatile for both characters as each can kill the other as low as 80% even with good DI on most stages. Zelda will be searching for easy Dtilt -> Fsmash / Usmash setups and anti-air Fair/Bair/Uair kills. She can gimp with Din's fire, Dsmash at the ledge, Naryu's love to always beat out his UpB, or smash attack to close stocks. Lucas can get Dair -> Upsmash around 60-75%, Dair -> OU Upsmash kill around 60-85%, and Dair -> Bair around 100-120%. Bair spikes on poor recoveries or improper spacing, and Fsmash punishes are the only other options to find kills reliably.

I'm not too sure on which stages are good or bad for Zelda, as she can trap Lucas with Din's Fire and cover tons of space with her massive disjoints. Lucas will be able to run around and bait space / avoid DF with his short height if they are not placed around the level of his head.

Neutral​

As of 3.5, Lucas' Fair which used to have a disjoint somewhat equivalent to Ness' Fair is now a stubby kick and nothing to worry about. Most approaches can be stuffed by Naryu's Love, and is hard for Lucas to punish despite his relatively high speed. If they go to punish one Naryu and aren't properly positioned to do so, most times it's ok to throw out another one right after because Lucas will either attempt to punish with a DJC PKF or dash in -> Fair / grab. Lucas needs a decent amount of space to work with in neutral, which is restricted by DF's. At the correct height, Lucas will be forced on the ground or risk being hit while attempting to DJC PKF. Naryu will reflect PKF if close enough. Fsmash covers a decent space in front of Zelda and is near impossible to punish due to the massive disjoint and low end lag. Zelda works well at baiting Lucas to approach then punishing with anti-air Uair, Utilt, Usmash, Fair/Bair especially and sometimes Naryu's. If he approaches from the ground, Fsmash, Nayru's, Ftilt, and even Fair/Bair can stop Lucas dead in their tracks.

Approaching isn't something Zelda has to worry with. Most Lucas players can be frightened easily. You will know how sp00ked they get by the amount of times they are full hopping or in general going way above you. You will feel the frustration with properly placed Din's Fires when they get stuck trying to approach. Be wary of the magnet absorbing these; however, it's only a measly 7-10% recovered, so you can get a free punish when they try to absorb the DF.

Punish / Combos​

Lucas
Lucas isn't much of a threat to Zelda comparable to his MU's vs most of the cast. He can secure at most 4-5 hits consecutively at low % and maybe 1-2 hits after 60%. The only major thing to avoid is Dair -> Upsmash and Upthrow which begins killing at 107 on PS2, 111 on Battlefield etc.

For a full list of kill %'s check out the Compendium for Up Throw Kill % in my Lucas guide here:
http://smashboards.com/guides/lightning-fast-a-project-m-lucas-guide.270/

First 2 hits of Dair can be SDI'd horizontally when on the ground, and SDI'd Up when in the air (be sure to tech the 3rd hit). Be sure to SDI horizontally away from momentum of Lucas. eg. If they are facing / running to the right when going to Dair, SDI to the left. Aside from Dair -> Upsmash and Upthrow, all his other moves won't begin killing until later %'s past 110-125.

Landing isn't terribly hard for Zelda despite Lucas being able to cover ground quickly and juggle with Uair. The disjoint is fairly tiny so you can actually challenge it with Dair or Tele to the ground safely. Uair comes out frame 4 so you still have to be careful of its speed and hitbox size.

Zelda
Zelda's combos also go about 2-5 hits max, but are more deadly and can lead to finishers way easier than Lucas. Her Upsmash combos into itself a few times at 0-10%, Uair can juggle fairly well, Nair leads into a few decent followups, and Utilt / Dash attack can lead into Fair/Bair or a Uair depending on their % and DI.

All her throws are easy to react to, so Dthrow doesn't do much, but Bthrow can catch poor DI and kill between 85-100%, 115-130% if with perfect DI on most stages. Fthrow will lead into Fair with bad DI, send Lucas offstage to get gimped, or into a Din's Fire. Upthrow works well at low % to combo into an Upsmash if they don't double jump, or a Nair / Fair if they DI away / attempt to double jump. I personally always hold facing away from Zelda to DI the Fthrow, then react accordingly to the other 3 throws given their higher startup.

Din's Fire will be the best thing to set up most combo starters and can catch retreating Lucas'

She can easily dodge out of full PKF range and the shorter range can be power shielded or spaced back to not get hit.

General Strategy
Set up the stage with Din's Fire at the level of Lucas' head, or at a far away distance to get the max size. Be sure not to get too close when throwing out Din's so that Lucas can't punish the end lag. Bait approaches from Lucas and punish anything that is sloppy or mis-spaced. Mitigate PKF and force Lucas to approach in a different fashion. Combo hard and secure kills whenever possible. It's easy to secure leads and throw out Fair/Bair to kill. Don't use too much Upsmash unless it's an anti-air or from a guarantee; Fsmash is better IMO. Dtilt can get some jank setups. For grabs, Backthrow is best to get Lucas off stage, Upthrow for combos, and only use Fthrow on mixups. Dthrow can be used for tech chases or to catch bad DI. Zelda has an answer to everything Lucas does. Don't get baited: you should be the one who controls the tempo of every game and should always have stage control, forcing Lucas to approach.

 

[Downdraft]

This thread's concept was important enough to get a sticky, but the first attempt failed.
1. We, the Project M Zelda community, need to to agree to a plan to make the attempt for 3.6 succeed.
2. I propose that we should handle the matchups in order of decreasing difficulty. We, the Project M Zelda community, can use use this thread to discuss the matchups we believe are hard for Zelda, come to a consensus, then order the matchups from most difficult to least difficult. To facilitate this process, I'd recommend we come to a consensus regarding which matchups are in Zelda's favor first.
3. I propose that matchup summaries should be posted within 3 days of taking a matchup, or better yet, matchup summaries should just be posted and duplicates can be resolved by the members that posted the same matchup.
4. As this thread's facilitator, Prynne should only have to point out missing details and organize the OP.
5. (more to come later)

 

[Prynne]

This thread's concept was important enough to get a sticky, but the first attempt failed.
1. We, the Project M Zelda community, need to to agree to a plan to make the attempt for 3.6 succeed.
2. I propose that we should handle the matchups in order of decreasing difficulty. We, the Project M Zelda community, can use use this thread to discuss the matchups we believe are hard for Zelda, come to a consensus, then order the matchups from most difficult to least difficult. To facilitate this process, I'd recommend we come to a consensus regarding which matchups are in Zelda's favor first.
3. I propose that matchup summaries should be posted within 3 days of taking a matchup, or better yet, matchup summaries should just be posted and duplicates can be resolved by the members that posted the same matchup.
4. As this thread's facilitator, Prynne should only have to point out missing details and organize the OP.
5. (more to come later)

Funny you mention all of this, Downdraft, I was just about to post an update and an apology for not having been active in this for a few weeks. Life has been happening and all that, but no johns. I have a few more matchups that I can take into consideration for doing on my own due to an increase in experience. I'm also ditching the deadline, and hope that we, at the very least, finish sometime just after 3.6 launches, if not before.

In lieu of that, if you have agreed to write for a matchup and have not done so yet, you have 3 days from today to get it to me, or I'll just give it to someone else.

I also like the idea of the consensus regarding difficulty of matchups, but I think it would just be simplest to make a short list of those which need to be addressed first rather than actually rank them.

 

[BlackMamba]

Funny you mention all of this, Downdraft, I was just about to post an update and an apology for not having been active in this for a few weeks. Life has been happening and all that, but no johns. I have a few more matchups that I can take into consideration for doing on my own due to an increase in experience. I'm also ditching the deadline, and hope that we, at the very least, finish sometime just after 3.6 launches, if not before.

In lieu of that, if you have agreed to write for a matchup and have not done so yet, you have 3 days from today to get it to me, or I'll just give it to someone else.

I also like the idea of the consensus regarding difficulty of matchups, but I think it would just be simplest to make a short list of those which need to be addressed first rather than actually rank them.

'Life has been happening and all that, but no johns.' Basically this. But I'll try to crank out some stuff in the next few days I think I can do at least most of what I wanted to in three days

 

[Vitriform]

Hey all,

I've been lurking Smashboards for a while, but I haven't really been able to muster the confidence to post here until just now.

Even though I'm fairly new to the competitive scene, I might be able to help out a little with this. I know that Downdraft agreed to do the Link write-up, but I was rather bored today and ended up doing a write-up for that matchup myself. My roommate/training partner is a Link main, and I have played against him almost every day since I entered the scene, so I'm quite familiar with it. With Downdraft's permission (I don't want to take this away from him if he still wants to do it), I would like to post my own analysis.

I'm sorry if I'm being a little too hasty, what with me being a relative nobody, but I think I can offer some insight.

 

[Downdraft]

Hey all,

I've been lurking Smashboards for a while, but I haven't really been able to muster the confidence to post here until just now.

Even though I'm fairly new to the competitive scene, I might be able to help out a little with this. I know that Downdraft agreed to do the Link write-up, but I was rather bored today and ended up doing a write-up for that matchup myself. My roommate/training partner is a Link main, and I have played against him almost every day since I entered the scene, so I'm quite familiar with it. With Downdraft's permission (I don't want to take this away from him if he still wants to do it), I would like to post my own analysis.

I'm sorry if I'm being a little too hasty, what with me being a relative nobody, but I think I can offer some insight.

Welcome. All Zelda mains' opinions on this board are equal. Feel free to post your summary of the Link matchup.
You may want to check out
How to deal with Link?

 

[Vitriform]

In that case, here's my analysis. Let me know if there's anything worth adding. This might even be a little long, but I think there's a lot of stuff to address with respect to this matchup, since (in my opinion) it's one of Zelda's harder ones.


Favorability
2 – 2.5

Good Stages
Dreamland
Fountain of Dreams
Green Hill Zone

Bad Stages
Warioware
Pokemon Stadium 2
Final Destination
Yoshi’s Island
Yoshi’s Story

Link can KO you off the top rather easily, so avoid stages with small top blastzones. Warioware is awful because its layout lets him camp the top platforms relatively noncommittally (although you can pester him with Din’s) and he can pelt you with his boomerang and Z-dropped bombs until you are at kill percent. Stages with sloped sides allow for easier Spin Attack gimps, which is a good reason to avoid both Yoshi’s. Large flat stages are awful in this matchup as well, since Link can projectile camp you and give you nowhere to run.

General Strategy
While not unwinnable, this is one of Zelda’s more difficult matchups, owing to Zelda’s vulnerability to disjoints, slow movement, and tall frame. With access to three excellent projectiles in his boomerang, bombs, and arrows, Link can out-camp you, so trying to hang back and force approaches out of him is a losing proposition. Unfortunately, you will need to be the aggressor in this matchup, as Link will try to play keep away and pelt you with projectiles until he can move in for a follow-up.

LC Nayru is one of your best approach options against Link; it buffers your approach against his projectiles and allows you to laglessly pursue him upon landing. Grounded Nayru can be situationally good, but don't use it to reflect bombs, which will often hit the ground before they can reach Link. Your Lightning Kicks can likewise act as valuable approach tools. Din’s on or near the ground can halt his movement, provide a temporary projectile shield, and pave the way for relatively safe teleport approaches. Use Telecancels judiciously, however, because Link can easily punish Farore's startup. Din’s in the air is not as effective because Link can quickly clank it with his Nair, but if you can manually detonate it just before he hits the Din, you can sometimes start something off of the explosion. Using the return hitbox may prove useful in some instances. Wavedash OoS is invaluable in the neutral game, as it allows you to block projectiles while continuing to brute force your way forward.

Link’s melee range is quite long, but many of his moves are slow, so look for windows to punish. OoS options (Kicks, shield grabs, wavedash OoS, etc.) will help you bypass his sword strikes. His aerials are unsafe on shield if he does not space perfectlly, so try to shield grab him out of his aerials. This matchup becomes much easier once you can get up close and personal. Link is a good combo weight for Zelda, so you can wreck him pretty hard with your bread and butter combos. Start with Ftilt, Usmash, or a grab; at low percents, you should be able to easily chain Usmashes and Utilts on him, finishing with a Kick, Uair (which beats his Dair), or Nair. A well-placed Din or a dash attack can be used to extend combos.

Edgeguarding Link is not always straightforward because Spin Attack is tricky to bypass horizontally, but you can plop a Din on his head (make sure it doesn’t get clanked) and follow up out of the hitstun. You can also try to Dair him through his Spin Attack if you’re feeling ballsy. If Link tethers, Telesnap to the ledge and force him to up-B or ledge hop. In either case, wavelanding onto the stage and punishing with a dash attack, pivot Fsmash, Dsmash or Kick can be an excellent option. If Link fails to sweetspot the ledge, Fsmashes, Dsmashes, or Kicks can quickly end his stocks.

Things to Watch For
Grab – His grab may go farther than you expect, so be prepared to roll/spotdodge at a moment’s notice, especially when engaging him OoS. His grab is also quite laggy, so you can usually get a good punish off of a whiffed grab.

Dthrow – make sure you DI it behind him to avoid his nastier follow-ups. At high percents, incorrect DI on a Dthrow will lead into a lethal Dair or Fair.

Zair – properly spaced Zairs can stuff your Nayru/Kick approaches and pop you up into the perfect position for a Uair follow up.

Juggles – Link’s Utilt, Uair, and bombs can juggle you very easily. Don’t try to challenge his upward strikes; get to the ground as quickly as you can.

Gimps – Link is one of the few characters who can effectively gimp Zelda’s recovery. ALWAYS SWEETSPOT THE LEDGE, TELEBURN HIM (and for the love of all that is holy, don’t miss) OR AVOID HIM ENTIRELY when recovering or you WILL eat a Spin Attack, which will send you offstage at a nasty semi-spike angle. If he spin attacks while you are on the ledge, wait patiently for the move to end, then punish with a ledge hop aerial. His arrows are also a huge threat; he can easily nail you out of the startup of Farore’s. They charge quickly, and a fully charged shot can kill you at around 60% if you are offstage. Make sure you save your jump and utilize fast falls to avoid his arrows.

 

[Downdraft]

In that case, here's my analysis. Let me know if there's anything worth adding. This might even be a little long, but I think there's a lot of stuff to address with respect to this matchup, since (in my opinion) it's one of Zelda's harder ones.


Favorability
2 – 2.5

Good Stages
Dreamland
Fountain of Dreams
Green Hill Zone

Bad Stages
Warioware
Pokemon Stadium 2
Final Destination
Yoshi’s Island
Yoshi’s Story

Link can KO you off the top rather easily, so avoid stages with small top blastzones. Warioware is awful because its layout lets him camp the top platforms relatively noncommittally (although you can pester him with Din’s) and he can pelt you with his boomerang and Z-dropped bombs until you are at kill percent. Stages with sloped sides allow for easier Spin Attack gimps, which is a good reason to avoid both Yoshi’s. Large flat stages are awful in this matchup as well, since Link can projectile camp you and give you nowhere to run.

General Strategy
While not unwinnable, this is one of Zelda’s more difficult matchups, owing to Zelda’s vulnerability to disjoints, slow movement, and tall frame. With access to three excellent projectiles in his boomerang, bombs, and arrows, Link can out-camp you, so trying to hang back and force approaches out of him is a losing proposition. Unfortunately, you will need to be the aggressor in this matchup, as Link will try to play keep away and pelt you with projectiles until he can move in for a follow-up.

LC Nayru is one of your best approach options against Link; it buffers your approach against his projectiles and allows you to laglessly pursue him upon landing. Grounded Nayru can be situationally good, but don't use it to reflect bombs, which will often hit the ground before they can reach Link. Your Lightning Kicks can likewise act as valuable approach tools. Din’s on or near the ground can halt his movement, provide a temporary projectile shield, and pave the way for relatively safe teleport approaches. Use Telecancels judiciously, however, because Link can easily punish Farore's startup. Din’s in the air is not as effective because Link can quickly clank it with his Nair, but if you can manually detonate it just before he hits the Din, you can sometimes start something off of the explosion. Using the return hitbox may prove useful in some instances. Wavedash OoS is invaluable in the neutral game, as it allows you to block projectiles while continuing to brute force your way forward.

Link’s melee range is quite long, but many of his moves are slow, so look for windows to punish. OoS options (Kicks, shield grabs, wavedash OoS, etc.) will help you bypass his sword strikes. His aerials are unsafe on shield if he does not space perfectlly, so try to shield grab him out of his aerials. This matchup becomes much easier once you can get up close and personal. Link is a good combo weight for Zelda, so you can wreck him pretty hard with your bread and butter combos. Start with Ftilt, Usmash, or a grab; at low percents, you should be able to easily chain Usmashes and Utilts on him, finishing with a Kick, Uair (which beats his Dair), or Nair. A well-placed Din or a dash attack can be used to extend combos.

Edgeguarding Link is not always straightforward because Spin Attack is tricky to bypass horizontally, but you can plop a Din on his head (make sure it doesn’t get clanked) and follow up out of the hitstun. You can also try to Dair him through his Spin Attack if you’re feeling ballsy. If Link tethers, Telesnap to the ledge and force him to up-B or ledge hop. In either case, wavelanding onto the stage and punishing with a dash attack, pivot Fsmash, Dsmash or Kick can be an excellent option. If Link fails to sweetspot the ledge, Fsmashes, Dsmashes, or Kicks can quickly end his stocks.

Things to Watch For
Grab – His grab may go farther than you expect, so be prepared to roll/spotdodge at a moment’s notice, especially when engaging him OoS. His grab is also quite laggy, so you can usually get a good punish off of a whiffed grab.

Dthrow – make sure you DI it behind him to avoid his nastier follow-ups. At high percents, incorrect DI on a Dthrow will lead into a lethal Dair or Fair.

Zair – properly spaced Zairs can stuff your Nayru/Kick approaches and pop you up into the perfect position for a Uair follow up.

Juggles – Link’s Utilt, Uair, and bombs can juggle you very easily. Don’t try to challenge his upward strikes; get to the ground as quickly as you can.

Gimps – Link is one of the few characters who can effectively gimp Zelda’s recovery. ALWAYS SWEETSPOT THE LEDGE, TELEBURN HIM (and for the love of all that is holy, don’t miss) OR AVOID HIM ENTIRELY when recovering or you WILL eat a Spin Attack, which will send you offstage at a nasty semi-spike angle. If he spin attacks while you are on the ledge, wait patiently for the move to end, then punish with a ledge hop aerial. His arrows are also a huge threat; he can easily nail you out of the startup of Farore’s. They charge quickly, and a fully charged shot can kill you at around 60% if you are offstage. Make sure you save your jump and utilize fast falls to avoid his arrows.

Your analysis is fantastic. I'd rate it a 5/5. I'd love to see you contribute another one.
Once again, welcome to the Project M Zelda community.

 

[BlackMamba]

In that case, here's my analysis. Let me know if there's anything worth adding. This might even be a little long, but I think there's a lot of stuff to address with respect to this matchup, since (in my opinion) it's one of Zelda's harder ones.


Favorability
2 – 2.5

Good Stages
Dreamland
Fountain of Dreams
Green Hill Zone

Bad Stages
Warioware
Pokemon Stadium 2
Final Destination
Yoshi’s Island
Yoshi’s Story

Link can KO you off the top rather easily, so avoid stages with small top blastzones. Warioware is awful because its layout lets him camp the top platforms relatively noncommittally (although you can pester him with Din’s) and he can pelt you with his boomerang and Z-dropped bombs until you are at kill percent. Stages with sloped sides allow for easier Spin Attack gimps, which is a good reason to avoid both Yoshi’s. Large flat stages are awful in this matchup as well, since Link can projectile camp you and give you nowhere to run.

General Strategy
While not unwinnable, this is one of Zelda’s more difficult matchups, owing to Zelda’s vulnerability to disjoints, slow movement, and tall frame. With access to three excellent projectiles in his boomerang, bombs, and arrows, Link can out-camp you, so trying to hang back and force approaches out of him is a losing proposition. Unfortunately, you will need to be the aggressor in this matchup, as Link will try to play keep away and pelt you with projectiles until he can move in for a follow-up.

LC Nayru is one of your best approach options against Link; it buffers your approach against his projectiles and allows you to laglessly pursue him upon landing. Grounded Nayru can be situationally good, but don't use it to reflect bombs, which will often hit the ground before they can reach Link. Your Lightning Kicks can likewise act as valuable approach tools. Din’s on or near the ground can halt his movement, provide a temporary projectile shield, and pave the way for relatively safe teleport approaches. Use Telecancels judiciously, however, because Link can easily punish Farore's startup. Din’s in the air is not as effective because Link can quickly clank it with his Nair, but if you can manually detonate it just before he hits the Din, you can sometimes start something off of the explosion. Using the return hitbox may prove useful in some instances. Wavedash OoS is invaluable in the neutral game, as it allows you to block projectiles while continuing to brute force your way forward.

Link’s melee range is quite long, but many of his moves are slow, so look for windows to punish. OoS options (Kicks, shield grabs, wavedash OoS, etc.) will help you bypass his sword strikes. His aerials are unsafe on shield if he does not space perfectlly, so try to shield grab him out of his aerials. This matchup becomes much easier once you can get up close and personal. Link is a good combo weight for Zelda, so you can wreck him pretty hard with your bread and butter combos. Start with Ftilt, Usmash, or a grab; at low percents, you should be able to easily chain Usmashes and Utilts on him, finishing with a Kick, Uair (which beats his Dair), or Nair. A well-placed Din or a dash attack can be used to extend combos.

Edgeguarding Link is not always straightforward because Spin Attack is tricky to bypass horizontally, but you can plop a Din on his head (make sure it doesn’t get clanked) and follow up out of the hitstun. You can also try to Dair him through his Spin Attack if you’re feeling ballsy. If Link tethers, Telesnap to the ledge and force him to up-B or ledge hop. In either case, wavelanding onto the stage and punishing with a dash attack, pivot Fsmash, Dsmash or Kick can be an excellent option. If Link fails to sweetspot the ledge, Fsmashes, Dsmashes, or Kicks can quickly end his stocks.

Things to Watch For
Grab – His grab may go farther than you expect, so be prepared to roll/spotdodge at a moment’s notice, especially when engaging him OoS. His grab is also quite laggy, so you can usually get a good punish off of a whiffed grab.

Dthrow – make sure you DI it behind him to avoid his nastier follow-ups. At high percents, incorrect DI on a Dthrow will lead into a lethal Dair or Fair.

Zair – properly spaced Zairs can stuff your Nayru/Kick approaches and pop you up into the perfect position for a Uair follow up.

Juggles – Link’s Utilt, Uair, and bombs can juggle you very easily. Don’t try to challenge his upward strikes; get to the ground as quickly as you can.

Gimps – Link is one of the few characters who can effectively gimp Zelda’s recovery. ALWAYS SWEETSPOT THE LEDGE, TELEBURN HIM (and for the love of all that is holy, don’t miss) OR AVOID HIM ENTIRELY when recovering or you WILL eat a Spin Attack, which will send you offstage at a nasty semi-spike angle. If he spin attacks while you are on the ledge, wait patiently for the move to end, then punish with a ledge hop aerial. His arrows are also a huge threat; he can easily nail you out of the startup of Farore’s. They charge quickly, and a fully charged shot can kill you at around 60% if you are offstage. Make sure you save your jump and utilize fast falls to avoid his arrows.

Good stuff, there really isn't much else I can think to add to this. Nice job

 

[BlackMamba]

Lucario

Favorability: 3.5

Good/Bad Stages: In this matchup, neither character really has a hard counterpick against the other. Both Zelda and Lucario kill mostly off the sides, but have a couple of good situational ways to kill off the top as well. (Lucario’s kill options off the top aren’t as strong as Zelda’s though, so this kind of balances out the fact that Zelda is floatier than him.) They both have long recoveries so they can live for ages on large stages if their DI is good. The only stage that may slightly favor Lucario is Yoshi’s Island Brawl since the middle platform is less disruptive to his combos than to Zelda’s. Zelda may benefit slightly from stages with close horizontal blast zones since her kills off the side are a bit stronger than Lucario’s.

General Strategy:

Lucario has a rather poor neutral game (assuming he has no aura charges). If he has no charges, he is nearly always forced to initiate his assaults with dash dances into dash attacks. Get a feel for the range of his dash attack, then just wait for him to whiff. and punish. At mid-range, he may try baiting out Naryu’s with Aura Spheres. Either approach with land-canceled Naryu’s or simply walk in the opposite direction if you have enough room. Shielding is often a poor choice because while you’re still in shieldstun, Lucario can start a combo with his command grab. If he does have an aura charge, things get a bit more problemtic; he can cancel his down B (Double Team) into uptilt to start combos. The invincibility from Double Team carries over into the attack he cancels into, so your can’t challenge these approaches; either run out of range or shield. Your overall goal in this matchup is to avoid being hit for as long as possible. Each hit (even it’s just on your shield) helps Lucario gain aura. He gets a full charge for each 50% of damage he deals. Him having aura charges is never good for you; it improves his neutral game, makes his recoveries extremely troublesome to edgeguard, and can result in nasty zero-to-deaths on you. As a floaty, you can escape the majority of Lucario’s combos much earlier than other cast members by DI-ing either up and in or up and away once you get caught. He should never be able to combo into grounded kills on you if you DI up and away. Luckily, Lucario is combo food for Zelda. You’ve got three main opportunities to start your assault on him: 1) when he whiffs a dash attack; 2) when he recovers onto the stage and is in landing lag; 3) when he uses Double Team without having aura (there’s a small window of endlag). Initiate your combos with jab, up throw/, forward tilt, or upsmash. Beware he has a good crouch cancel; if he’s crouching while you upsmash it won’t pull him up and he can punish you for it. (If your upsmash connects, double upsmash -> nair-> kick is difficult for him to avoid at low percentages.) You can also wall him out with Bairs if he’s attempting to find his way in with dash dance-> dash attack. Most of his moves are actually pretty weak against even your subpar crouch cancel, so you can sometimes even get mileage out of CC downtilt -> grab. Aside from Zelda’s pseudo-immunity to a lot of combos, the main reason this matchup favors her is her ability to keep out active hitboxes. Din’s, Naryu’s Love, Utilt, and Upsmash all limit the mobility he gets out of Double Team significantly since they outlast it. All these moves also beat his recovery, Extremespeed, so you get pretty easy edgeguards when he has no aura. His recovery has a ton of startup, so if you’re feeling ballsy and want to end things early jump out and intercept with a kick. When he has a charge and is above the stage, watch out; he can cancel into an invincible n-air to get back. From below, his options are quite limited; just be aware that aura charges allow him to air dodge onto stage, so if you’re hogging the ledge, you should probably stay put. For non-edgeguard kills, rely mainly on lightning kicks, forward smash reads, and uptilts. At 70%, upthrow to upair is quite hard for him to escape and kills if the upair sweetspots. He’ll most likely have to go for raw kills, as DIing up and away makes it very hard for him to combo into kills on you.

Things to look out for:

Dtilt- nair: DI away from the downtilt

Down-B (cancel)->Dsmash: if he double teams toward you with a charge and you’re near kill percent, it’s usually wise to just sit in shield.

Charged command grab: this can kill at around 90% on most stages. The grab box is pretty large and has a decent amount of armor, so beware

 

[Prynne]

I can't tell if this is clear or not, give me feedback.

Yoshi

Favorability
3

Good Stages
Final Destination
Smashville
Green Hill Zone
WarioWare
Fountain of Doom

Bad Stages
Yoshi’s Island
Dreamland
Yoshi’s Story
Battlefield

Yoshi’s movement game thrives on platforms, so Zelda can work fairly well on stages that are open and flat. Depending on how quickly you want to death combo Yoshi, you can take a little risk and go Warioware or Green hill, or even Yoshi's story, because you might also die relatively quickly.

General Strategy
This matchup is best played with a Din’s around you at all times. I think most matchups are best that way, but in this situation, it will force the Yoshi to concentrate on the Din’s in some situations when he should be focusing on you, and that will lead to a free punish. If he doesn’t focus on the Din’s, you can tap him with it, and that gives you even a nominal amount of hitstun to work with. He can double jump through it though, so it isn’t phenomenal for edge guarding, but tacking on the extra percent can only help.

From the moment you start, you should be looking for a Grab or an Usmash. Play the neutral, poke with Din’s and Telecancel about until you find the opportune moment to do Zelda things.

Once you get the grab, telecancel to tech chase and punish to the best of your ability. If they DI improperly, an Usmash will do just fine. Yoshi’s on the shorter side of things, so it’s a little tougher to snag him from the side with Usmash. Once you get an Usmash, you can follow it up with another Usmash if they’re below 15%, or you can Nair, and continue it with a Din’s, possibly. If you want to end it and set back to neutral, or don’t have the time to Nair, Uair works fine too. Sometimes they’ll just be in range to kick out of Usmash, so don’t be afraid to go for that too. Standard Zelda combos are just fine here.

Be wary of your tilts. Yoshi’s grab is quite long, and will grab you out of a lot of things you may want to do, so monitor their positioning when going for an Ftilt. Additionally, Yoshi can duck under your Ftilt at a certain range, and punish with his set-knockback Dtilt, which gets to be a pain.

Yoshi is looking for a grab or pivot grab on you, so a well-timed Nayru’s will stuff his approach. If he’s coming at you from the air, don’t you dare Nayru’s. because you’ll eat a Nair or Fair.

Spacing your every move is incredibly important in this matchup. A moment of sloppiness will result in a grab, nair, dtilt, egg hit, or egg roll hit for Yoshi, and that puts you at a disadvantage. Grab him out of his egg roll, by the way. Pivot grab works best, but it doesn’t have to be. You can kick him out of things, but it has to be very precise, or else he’ll snag your foot with a hitbox.

Never be shielding too much. I know as Zelda it's usually a good idea, but don't. There are so many options that he has against you that if he catches you in shield, he can either command grab you from the air, use Dair for massive shield damage, or shield poke with Dtilt or the stars of his Down B.

Once Yoshi gets a grab, he can combo you for a little bit, even with "proper" DI.

His double jump will screw you, if you don’t know when he can use it. Be very aware of when he is in hitstun

Yoshi is also one of those characters that is very awkward to edgeguard, such as Sheik, Peach, and the like. You can hit him with a kick, but you need to wait for his super armor to end if he double jumps. If you can hit him before that, he should really already be dead.

Things to look out for

Pivot Grab – Yoshi’s Pivot grab is incredible and will get you if you aren’t paying attention. Yoshi’s throws also give him quite a few follow up options. Dthrow combos into just about anything, even if you DI away. If you DI behind him, then he can still nail you with an Uair, which acutally kills at higher percentages. 110% even, on some stages. Mashing jump if they are following you is probably not to bad of an option, and then finding your way out somehow is the next step. Obviously teleporting down works, but consider the Nayru's glide or even a falling uair/nair mixup.

Fair - When teleporting to recover offstage, Yoshi can very easily Fair you, which is a meteor, so be sure to cancel it if by some fluke he clips you.

Nair – Yoshi’s Rising Nair is difficult to deal with, and can kill fairly early on smaller stages. Don’t let it get the better of you.

Dair – just thought I’d mention it, but if all the hits of Dair connect, it does 56%, but it can be easily SDI’d. Just thought I’d warn you.

Dsmash – If you teleburn Yoshi while he’s crouching, he can easily cc and dsmash you, so be wary.

Egg toss – don’t bother reflecting these with LC Nayru’s. Just keep calm and carry on… to punish him for throwing an egg at you.

Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZTROIgWB6g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZHwphmYLU

Attribution
Myself, and countless hours of practice with @ CatcherAndTheRai

 

[Vitriform]

I can't tell if this is clear or not, give me feedback.

Yoshi

Favorability
3

Good Stages
Final Destination
Smashville
Green Hill Zone
WarioWare
Fountain of Doom

Bad Stages
Yoshi’s Island
Dreamland
Yoshi’s Story
Battlefield

Yoshi’s movement game thrives on platforms, so Zelda can work fairly well on stages that are open and flat. Depending on how quickly you want to death combo Yoshi, you can take a little risk and go Warioware or Green hill, or even Yoshi's story, because you might also die relatively quickly.

General Strategy
This matchup is best played with a Din’s around you at all times. I think most matchups are best that way, but in this situation, it will force the Yoshi to concentrate on the Din’s in some situations when he should be focusing on you, and that will lead to a free punish. If he doesn’t focus on the Din’s, you can tap him with it, and that gives you even a nominal amount of hitstun to work with. He can double jump through it though, so it isn’t phenomenal for edge guarding, but tacking on the extra percent can only help.

From the moment you start, you should be looking for a Grab or an Usmash. Play the neutral, poke with Din’s and Telecancel about until you find the opportune moment to do Zelda things.

Once you get the grab, telecancel to tech chase and punish to the best of your ability. If they DI improperly, an Usmash will do just fine. Yoshi’s on the shorter side of things, so it’s a little tougher to snag him from the side with Usmash. Once you get an Usmash, you can follow it up with another Usmash if they’re below 15%, or you can Nair, and continue it with a Din’s, possibly. If you want to end it and set back to neutral, or don’t have the time to Nair, Uair works fine too. Sometimes they’ll just be in range to kick out of Usmash, so don’t be afraid to go for that too. Standard Zelda combos are just fine here.

Be wary of your tilts. Yoshi’s grab is quite long, and will grab you out of a lot of things you may want to do, so monitor their positioning when going for an Ftilt. Additionally, Yoshi can duck under your Ftilt at a certain range, and punish with his set-knockback Dtilt, which gets to be a pain.

Yoshi is looking for a grab or pivot grab on you, so a well-timed Nayru’s will stuff his approach. If he’s coming at you from the air, don’t you dare Nayru’s. because you’ll eat a Nair or Fair.

Spacing your every move is incredibly important in this matchup. A moment of sloppiness will result in a grab, nair, dtilt, egg hit, or egg roll hit for Yoshi, and that puts you at a disadvantage. Grab him out of his egg roll, by the way. Pivot grab works best, but it doesn’t have to be. You can kick him out of things, but it has to be very precise, or else he’ll snag your foot with a hitbox.

His double jump will screw you, if you don’t know when he can use it. Be very aware of when he is in hitstun.

Things to look out for

Pivot Grab – Yoshi’s Pivot grab is incredible and will get you if you aren’t paying attention. Yoshi’s throws also give him quite a few follow up options.

Fair - When teleporting to recover offstage, Yoshi can very easily Fair you, which is a meteor, so be sure to cancel it if by some fluke he clips you.

Nair – Yoshi’s Rising Nair is difficult to deal with, and can kill fairly early on smaller stages. Don’t let it get the better of you.

Dair – just thought I’d mention it, but if all the hits of Dair connect, it does 56%, but it can be easily SDI’d. Just thought I’d warn you.

Dsmash – If you teleburn Yoshi while he’s crouching, he can easily cc and dsmash you, so be wary.

Egg toss – don’t bother reflecting these with LC Nayru’s. Just keep calm and carry on… to punish his sorry *** for throwing an egg at you.

Attribution
Myself, and countless hours of practice with @ CatcherAndTheRai

I think it might be important to note what you should do if you get grabbed by Yoshi. As you mentioned, he has extremely potent follow-ups on Zelda out of his throws if you DI poorly, especially Uair, which has a huge hitbox and can easily juggle her, or Fair, which has tons of knockback and hitstun and can pop you up for a Uair kill at high percents if you fail to tech it. I'm not sure what correct DI would be for his throws, as I haven't played this matchup much, but I do have enough experience to know that he can combo Zelda very hard if you screw up your DI.

It's also worth noting that staying in shield can be a risky proposition against an airborne Yoshi. He has a command grab with neutral B, (and he can add armor to it with a DJC) so you aren't entirely safe from grabs even if he's approaching from the air (the follow ups out of neutral B aren't as bad as if he were to grab you normally, however). Dair does ridiculous shield damage, and down-B can shield stab you with its landing hitboxes (the stars), making it difficult to punish him out of it unless your shield is nearly full.

Overall, your description of the matchup sounds pretty accurate to me. If you're looking for a video link to post as an example of how to play the matchup, check out Oracle vs Hamyojo at Infinity and Beyond 38. My post count isn't high enough to include links yet, but that might be something useful to add.

 

[Prynne]

I think it might be important to note what you should do if you get grabbed by Yoshi. As you mentioned, he has extremely potent follow-ups on Zelda out of his throws if you DI poorly, especially Uair, which has a huge hitbox and can easily juggle her, or Fair, which has tons of knockback and hitstun and can pop you up for a Uair kill at high percents if you fail to tech it. I'm not sure what correct DI would be for his throws, as I haven't played this matchup much, but I do have enough experience to know that he can combo Zelda very hard if you screw up your DI.

It's also worth noting that staying in shield can be a risky proposition against an airborne Yoshi. He has a command grab with neutral B, (and he can add armor to it with a DJC) so you aren't entirely safe from grabs even if he's approaching from the air (the follow ups out of neutral B aren't as bad as if he were to grab you normally, however). Dair does ridiculous shield damage, and down-B can shield stab you with its landing hitboxes (the stars), making it difficult to punish him out of it unless your shield is nearly full.

Overall, your description of the matchup sounds pretty accurate to me. If you're looking for a video link to post as an example of how to play the matchup, check out Oracle vs Hamyojo at Infinity and Beyond 38. My post count isn't high enough to include links yet, but that might be something useful to add.

Edited to include your suggestions!

 

[Vitriform]

Edited to include your suggestions!

Looks good. By the way, there was also another set between Oracle and Hamyojo in that same tourney (winner's finals) that has 2 Yoshi v. Zelda matches.

 

[Prynne]

Looks good. By the way, there was also another set between Oracle and Hamyojo in that same tourney (winner's finals) that has 2 Yoshi v. Zelda matches.

Excellent, I'll add that promptly.

 

[Downdraft]

(Might I suggest using the emotes instead of names above each spoiler?)
Disclaimer
I've struggled with this matchup and have gotten little help online or offline, but I agreed to do this matchup, so here goes.

Favorability
2

Good Stages
Don't pick stages that
A. have close side blast lines
B. make it difficult to approach Samus while she's missile camping
C. allow Samus to escape your combos easily

Delfino's Secret
Smashville
Skyworld
Distant Planet
Norfair
Yoshi's Island

Bad Stages
All small stages + Battlefield

General Strategy
Samus is a heavy floater and a horizontal killer with Charge Shot, Missiles, Ice F-air, F-smash, and more.
That is one of the main reasons you want to avoid small stages. Then there's the fact that Zelda's lightning kicks, F-smash, and D-smash (to edgeguard) are less effective in this matchup since you won't find yourself with the positioning or situation to use those tools often. You have a better shot of killing her off the top with sweetspot U-air, early U-tilt, strong Din's explosions, and even U-smash at higher percents.

Use F-air and land cancelled Nayru's to approach at long and medium range. If you picked a good stage then you can use the platforms to approach with shielding and teleport cancels. Your good attacks in this matchup keep Samus above you so rely on F-tilt, U-smash, U-tilt, and even U-throw. She is vulnerable in the air and can't camp from there.

If you play the matchup right, you'll be able to combo her better than she can combo you, and her projectile game shouldn't give you much trouble while you're on or above the stage.

Recover low and don't use Farore's offstage if you're in a position where her missiles and F-air ice can hit you. You won't make it back. Also try to avoid using Nayru's to reflect missiles while offstage since the missiles are baiting the attack and she'll just shoot more.

Things to look out for
Samus firing a Charge Shot from the ledge
Her D-air on or offstage. Tech it if possible, so you can avoid a missile or other nasty followup.
Zair A Samus that makes good use of Zair is difficult to approach, and I'm not sure what you can do about that.
The super wavedash. That's her burst movement option, so if you give her a lot of horizontal ground or mindlessly try setting up a Din's, prepare to have her in your face instantly.

Videos
There aren't any high level 3.5 videos available of this matchup available since both characters are underrepresented at the highest levels. In 3.02, this matchup was still rare at a high level, and the only notable time it occurred is when ESAM dominated Zhime when Zhime was unfamiliar with the matchup at that level.

 

[Prynne]

(Might I suggest using the emotes instead of names above each spoiler?)

Why not have both?

 

[BlackMamba]

g

(Might I suggest using the emotes instead of names above each spoiler?)
Disclaimer
I've struggled with this matchup and have gotten little help online or offline, but I agreed to do this matchup, so here goes.

Favorability
2

Good Stages
Don't pick stages that
A. have close side blast lines
B. make it difficult to approach Samus while she's missile camping
C. allow Samus to escape your combos easily

Delfino's Secret
Smashville
Skyworld
Distant Planet
Norfair
Yoshi's Island

Bad Stages
All small stages + Battlefield

General Strategy
Samus is a heavy floater and a horizontal killer with Charge Shot, Missiles, Ice F-air, F-smash, and more.
That is one of the main reasons you want to avoid small stages. Then there's the fact that Zelda's lightning kicks, F-smash, and D-smash (to edgeguard) are less effective in this matchup since you won't find yourself with the positioning or situation to use those tools often. You have a better shot of killing her off the top with sweetspot U-air, early U-tilt, strong Din's explosions, and even U-smash at higher percents.

Use F-air and land cancelled Nayru's to approach at long and medium range. If you picked a good stage then you can use the platforms to approach with shielding and teleport cancels. Your good attacks in this matchup keep Samus above you so rely on F-tilt, U-smash, U-tilt, and even U-throw. She is vulnerable in the air and can't camp from there.

If you play the matchup right, you'll be able to combo her better than she can combo you, and her projectile game shouldn't give you much trouble while you're on or above the stage.

Recover low and don't use Farore's offstage if you're in a position where her missiles and F-air ice can hit you. You won't make it back. Also try to avoid using Nayru's to reflect missiles while offstage since the missiles are baiting the attack and she'll just shoot more.

Things to look out for
Samus firing a Charge Shot from the ledge
Her D-air on or offstage. Tech it if possible, so you can avoid a missile or other nasty followup.
Zair A Samus that makes good use of Zair is difficult to approach, and I'm not sure what you can do about that.
The super wavedash. That's her burst movement option, so if you give her a lot of horizontal ground or mindlessly try setting up a Din's, prepare to have her in your face instantly.

Videos
There aren't any high level 3.5 videos available of this matchup available since both characters are underrepresented at the highest levels. In 3.02, this matchup was still rare at a high level, and the only notable time it occurred is when ESAM dominated Zhime when Zhime was unfamiliar with the matchup at that level.

Great analysis overall, though I disagree with not taking her to small stages. On small stages, she can't camp and you can kill her much more easily. She can live to ridiculously high percentages on larger maps, even off the top. Plus Zelda's horizontal kill options are stronger than hers are, so small stages have a net benefit. Just my two cents.

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

I know I am not a zelda main, but I play against her enough to know what she does. I just read over @ Prynne post on yoshi match up. I just have a few changes and things I would like to add.

In this match up, yoshi is going to hate flat long stages. PS2 & FD. I would say his next worst stage against her is FoD. The platforms just allow so many follow ups for her. Yoshi LOVES stages with platforms. Best stage movement in the game in my own opinion. So stages like Battlefield, Yoshi Story, and Dreamland are all good for him. Neutrals for both I think are: GHZ, and Smashville.

Yoshi can only get a F-air off of D-Throw at percents lower than 30 from my experience. After that, he can almost always get a Rising N-air off of it. and Yoshi can only CC teleports explosion at lower percents, again, from my experience.

Yoshi's command grab is completely fatal to zelda. If he is at lower percents, he can DJ through your break out and N-air you. and if you're at high % it may kill. The trick with this is: you can control when you break out of the egg. so mix it up, or bait something out from yoshi.

When you are at higher percents, yoshi is gonna D-throw you, SH, wait for you to burn your jump, then U-air you. If it is fresh high chance of a KO.

Also, I know @ Prynne and I are not at the absolute highest level of play, but I can upload some of our matches so you can see our information be put to use, if you would all like!!

EDIT: @ Vitriform , If the yoshi is playing properly, It doesnt matter which way you DI his D-Throw(most used throw) because of the properties of yoshi's DJ. If he is facing right and DJs left, he will have a swinging motion in that direction, so if he just baits you out of stuff not guaranteed, he can gain a follow up.

 

[Vitriform]

I know I am not a zelda main, but I play against her enough to know what she does. I just read over @ Prynne post on yoshi match up. I just have a few changes and things I would like to add.

In this match up, yoshi is going to hate flat long stages. PS2 & FD. I would say his next worst stage against her is FoD. The platforms just allow so many follow ups for her. Yoshi LOVES stages with platforms. Best stage movement in the game in my own opinion. So stages like Battlefield, Yoshi Story, and Dreamland are all good for him. Neutrals for both I think are: GHZ, and Smashville.

Yoshi can only get a F-air off of D-Throw at percents lower than 30 from my experience. After that, he can almost always get a Rising N-air off of it. and Yoshi can only CC teleports explosion at lower percents, again, from my experience.

Yoshi's command grab is completely fatal to zelda. If he is at lower percents, he can DJ through your break out and N-air you. and if you're at high % it may kill. The trick with this is: you can control when you break out of the egg. so mix it up, or bait something out from yoshi.

When you are at higher percents, yoshi is gonna D-throw you, SH, wait for you to burn your jump, then U-air you. If it is fresh high chance of a KO.

Also, I know @ Prynne and I are not at the absolute highest level of play, but I can upload some of our matches so you can see our information be put to use, if you would all like!!

EDIT: @ Vitriform , If the yoshi is playing properly, It doesnt matter which way you DI his D-Throw(most used throw) because of the properties of yoshi's DJ. If he is facing right and DJs left, he will have a swinging motion in that direction, so if he just baits you out of stuff not guaranteed, he can gain a follow up.

Thanks for the input; it's always nice to hear other opinions. I knew that Yoshi's grab game was extremely dangerous to Zelda, but I haven't done enough testing on my own to see if his follow ups are guaranteed. Based on descriptions by you and Prynne, it seems that the only solution, unfortunately, is not to get grabbed. Would mixing up DI be useful to possibly force a whiff off of an incorrect DI read, or does Yoshi have a single move that can cover all of your DI options simultaneously?

 

[BlackMamba]

Got some Zhime footage for some of the matchups we've covered!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObUlgrjwfGY
v. Yoshi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BhtX4RzME8
vs. Fox and Falcon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzf1_tCwjII
vs. Fox

 

[Downdraft]

@ Prynne For consistency, all completed matchups should have footage links in the second spoiler.
Why isn't Samus considered complete?
Maybe you should tag people that haven't made their contributions yet like rizner and Sanclaira.
What about your matchups?
Also, there are threads on Falco and G&W here. If someone else would like to contribute without putting forth much effort, then they can consult those threads and can find plenty of footage of the Falco matchup on YouTube.

Also, what's the plan? Is this project suspended until 3.6?

 

[Prynne]

@ Prynne For consistency, all completed matchups should have footage links in the second spoiler.
Why isn't Samus considered complete?
Maybe you should tag people that haven't made their contributions yet like rizner and Sanclaira.
What about your matchups?
Also, there are threads on Falco and G&W here. If someone else would like to contribute without putting forth much effort, then they can consult those threads and can find plenty of footage of the Falco matchup on YouTube.

Also, what's the plan? Is this project suspended until 3.6?

Sorry, life is still happening.
To answer your questions in order:

Never got around to editing OP to include Samus, I will try to do that promptly.
That's a good idea. @ Sardonyx @Rizner , help us out.
I did Yoshi. Working on others, but once again, lots of life.

The plan is going to be altered based on personal preference to work at a slower tempo. I thought a deadline would help but it instead did nothing, so we'll just work at whatever pace is best until then. I don't expect 3.6 to drop anytime soon, so let's just hope it doesn't drop before we finish.

 

[Sardonyx]

It's Peachy time!

Favorability: 3

Good stages: Warioware, Yoshi's Story- You can kill her early in both of these places with a good up air or kick, even fsmash and dsmash

Bad Stages: Dreamland: She won't die till later and can edgeguard like a god, Battlefield: Her platform game is much better than Zelda's and her utilt reaches through the platforms, so she can hit you with it.

General Strats:
Dins is your friend in this MU. Put it at a height just above Zelda in order to threaten Peach's optimal floating space. Peach will want to float at that height in order to punish nayru's with a FC aerial so the main things you'll be doing are utilt if you can read your opponent well, since her utilt outranges most, if not all (correct me if i'm wrong pls) of peach's aerials because of arm intangibility. We'll also be spacing kicks like crazy since they're fast aerials that outrange peach's. Dins is a good edgeguard against her, but if you're feeling fancy, you can use the ribbon hit of farore's to do the job (not recommended tbh). You're both floaty characters, but she can combo you somewhat better, so playing defensive is very important. Punish bad landings, threaten her space with dins, and space kicks is really what this MU is about.

What to look out for:
Dthrow > Usmash at low percentages. You'll want to DI up and away from Peach to try and avoid it, otherwise DI down so you don't get hit with the tip of her hand.
Peach will try to bait out a nayru's with constant turnip throws and generally keeping the pressure up. If you space one wrong, you'll most likely get punished for it
Peach dsmash oos is 11 frames, so don't use any of your super punishable moves on shield. She can Shield DI towards you so she can punish you with it afterwards.
"I think it would be good to make some mention of how well and how safely Peach can pressure Zelda's shield. FC Nairs and Fairs can deal enough shield damage for Peach's Dsmash to shield poke (dealing around 20% damage in the process), and FC aerials only have 4 frames of landing lag, so Zelda does not have enough time to do anything except buffer a roll before the Dsmash comes out. Peach can also FC an aerial on your shield into jab or grab." from @ Vitriform
I'd like to thank @ otheusrex , @ Prynne , @ Kaeldiar and @ Vitriform for helping me learn this MU from the peach perspective :D

 

[Vitriform]

It's Peachy time!

Favorability: 3

Good stages: Warioware, Yoshi's Story- You can kill her early in both of these places with a good up air or kick, even fsmash and dsmash

Bad Stages: Dreamland: She won't die till later and can edgeguard like a god, Battlefield: Her platform game is much better than Zelda's and her utilt reaches through the platforms, so she can hit you with it.

General Strats:
Dins is your friend in this MU. Put it at a height just above Zelda in order to threaten Peach's optimal floating space. Peach will want to float at that height in order to punish nayru's with a FC aerial so the main things you'll be doing are utilt if you can read your opponent well, since her utilt outranges most, if not all (correct me if i'm wrong pls) of peach's aerials because of arm intangibility. We'll also be spacing kicks like crazy since they're fast aerials that outrange peach's. Dins is a good edgeguard against her, but if you're feeling fancy, you can use the ribbon hit of farore's to do the job (not recommended tbh). You're both floaty characters, but she can combo you somewhat better, so playing defensive is very important. Punish bad landings, threaten her space with dins, and space kicks is really what this MU is about.

What to look out for:
Dthrow > Usmash at low percentages. You'll want to DI up and away from Peach to try and avoid it, otherwise DI down so you don't get hit with the tip of her hand.
Peach will try to bait out a nayru's with constant turnip throws and generally keeping the pressure up. If you space one wrong, you'll most likely get punished for it
Peach dsmash oos is 11 frames, so don't use any of your super punishable moves on shield. She can Shield DI towards you so she can punish you with it afterwards.

I'd like to thank @ otheusrex , @ Prynne , @ Kaeldiar for helping me learn this MU from the peach perspective :D

I think it would be good to make some mention of how well and how safely Peach can pressure Zelda's shield. FC Nairs and Fairs can deal enough shield damage for Peach's Dsmash to shield poke (dealing around 20% damage in the process), and FC aerials only have 4 frames of landing lag, so Zelda does not have enough time to do anything except buffer a roll before the Dsmash comes out. Peach can also FC an aerial on your shield into jab or grab.

 

[Sardonyx]

I think it would be good to make some mention of how well and how safely Peach can pressure Zelda's shield. FC Nairs and Fairs can deal enough shield damage for Peach's Dsmash to shield poke (dealing around 20% damage in the process), and FC aerials only have 4 frames of landing lag, so Zelda does not have enough time to do anything except buffer a roll before the Dsmash comes out. Peach can also FC an aerial on your shield into jab or grab.

I shall add your name to the list of people who helped

 

[otheusrex]

I wanna add that ribbon hit is definitely worth doing, and i definitely rewarding on hit. The best times to go for it though are punishes oos when they're close. ribbon hit oos will probably yield more consistent results than upsmash oos will, and the nice thing is because its weight dependant kb it will always be the same no matter what the percent.

 

[BlackMamba]

Here are some vods of my the Zelda-Lucario matchup with myself and my friend Fearless (he's on the list for one of the best Lucarios, btw). We mess around a bit in some games but if you're having trouble with the matchup these should still be helpful:
http://www.twitch.tv/utsmash/v/4293746
http://www.twitch.tv/utsmash/v/4294029
http://www.twitch.tv/utsmash/v/4294097
http://www.twitch.tv/utsmash/v/4294097
This is probably way more than you could ever want to watch haha

 

[noobftw]

Hi I'm new but I've been going to tourneys for the past month and a half and been playing casually for a year or two.
My training partner is falco so I think I can throw my match up experience against him.

Character: Falco
Favorability: 3.5

Good stages: FD, Dreamland, Norfair, FoD, GHZ, Smashville
Bad Stages: Warioware, Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Story (Brawl), Battlefield
Stagewise I feel that I can take falco on the legal stages pretty confidently even with the bad stages because I know I can kill easier as well. Warioware and Yoshi's story are more helpful to falco because they are a bit too small. Yoshi's Brawl's middle platform really messes up with your combos and the angles of the stage makes you mess up telecanceling sometimes. And battlefield to me is one of zelda's harder stages to play on since she can't cover that much space with one din's anymore.

General Strats:
The moment you get a grab you should try to confirm a combo that will launch falco off the stage (The usual zelda things on spacies with upsmashes into grabs into chain throws and then lightning kick or back throw to get him off stage) . After he is off the stage you can throw din's to cover the area he will jump or hit him preemptively. Din's out on it's own won't beat the middle or end of phantasm or firefox so putting din's by the edge does not help as much. When edgeguarding if the din's doesn't hit I usually break it down into 4 options which you can tell from the placement of falco.
1)Falco recovers from below: Wait for the end a little in the stage for the edge of down tilt or down smash to hit and hit him on reaction since they are pretty fast moves. If down smash hits falco is dead unless they tech but then you can do it again on reaction.
2)Falco recovers to the ledge horizantally: You can wait to do down smash/down tilit/fsmash to edge guard him.
3)Falco recovers onto stage slightly above the ledge: You can either forward smash the phantasm or firebird. Downsmash can work slightly but if they are too high they will hit you. I usually just react with uptilt and try to edge guard again. Naryu's also works but it doesn't hit falco far enough to kill him most of the time.
4)Falco recovers high: If it's on stages with platforms above the ledge then be prepared to nair their landing. If it's without the ledge you can either grab and throw them back, nair, or naryu them out.
In terms of neutral the lasers are falco's tool for getting in and applying pressure. If falco plays patiently then it's going to be hard for you to get that grab or upsmash. But if he is playing pressure based buffer roll or shield and wait for the moment to punish him hard. You can approach with LC Naryu's to reflect some lasers. Dash attack if they are close or CC downsmash or downtilt on jabs. Neutral against falco is annoying for all characters but if we play our patient game and punish falco can't do much after the edgeguard part.
Floaties usually give falco trouble since you'll live for a long time and kill falco with ease on the punish game. Playing patient infuriates them too since they usually always play aggro. If falco pressure gets to you, you will lose the match up because then he will go to spike you and take control of the game. Dying under 80% isn't what you want since you want your stocks to last forever so watch out for the spikes!
What to look out for:
Shine kill off of the top on small stages
Fsmash to beat out teleport
Dair-> Dair
Dash attack->Dair
Jab when you're at high percent since it can lead to forward smash or anything really
DI up throw away. DI shine behind him and in his combos you can DI away or up and out to escape falco combos but you will still take like 40-60%

I hope this helps out!

 

[Prynne]

Hi I'm new but I've been going to tourneys for the past month and a half and been playing casually for a year or two.
My training partner is falco so I think I can throw my match up experience against him.

Character: Falco
Favorability: 3.5

Good stages: FD, Dreamland, Norfair, FoD, GHZ, Smashville
Bad Stages: Warioware, Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Story (Brawl), Battlefield
Stagewise I feel that I can take falco on the legal stages pretty confidently even with the bad stages because I know I can kill easier as well. Warioware and Yoshi's story are more helpful to falco because they are a bit too small. Yoshi's Brawl's middle platform really messes up with your combos and the angles of the stage makes you mess up telecanceling sometimes. And battlefield to me is one of zelda's harder stages to play one since she can't cover that much space with one din's anymore.

General Strats:
The moment you get a grab you should try to confirm a combo that will launch falco off the stage (The usual zelda things on spacies with upsmashes into grabs into chain throws and then lightning kick or back throw to get him off stage) . After he is off the stage you can throw din's to cover the area he will jump or hit him preemptively. Din's out on it's own won't beat the middle or end of phantasm or firefox so putting din's by the edge does not help as much. When edgeguarding if the din's doesn't hit I usually break it down into 4 options which you can tell from the placement of falco.
1)Falco recovers from below: Wait for the end a little in the stage for the edge of down tilt or down smash to hit and hit him on reaction since they are pretty fast moves. If down smash hits falco is dead unless they tech but then you can do it again on reaction.
2)Falco recovers to the ledge horizantally: You can wait to do down smash/down tilit/fsmash to edge guard him.
3)Falco recovers onto stage slightly above the ledge: You can either forward smash the phantasm or firebird. Downsmash can work slightly but if they are too high they will hit you. I usually just react with uptilt and try to edge guard again. Naryu's also works but it doesn't hit falco far enough to kill him most of the time.
4)Falco recovers high: If it's on stages with platforms above the ledge then be prepared to nair their landing. If it's without the ledge you can either grab and throw them back, nair, or naryu them out.
In terms of neutral the lasers are falco's tool for getting in and applying pressure. If falco plays patiently then it's going to be hard for you to get that grab or upsmash. But if he is playing pressure based buffer roll or shield and wait for the moment to punish him hard. You can approach with LC Naryu's to reflect some lasers. Dash attack if they are close or CC downsmash or downtilt on jabs. Neutral against falco is annoying for all characters but if we play our patient game and punish falco can't do much after the edgeguard part.
Floaties usually give falco trouble since you'll live for a long time and kill falco with ease on the punish game. Playing patient infuriates them too since they usually always play aggro. If falco pressure gets to you, you will lose the match up because then he will go to spike you and take control of the game. Dying under 80% isn't what you want since you want your stocks to last forever so watch out for the spikes!
What to look out for:
Shine kill off of the top on small stages
Fsmash to beat out teleport
Dair-> Dair
Dash attack->Dair
Jab when you're at high percent since it can lead to forward smash or anything really
DI up throw away. DI shine behind him and in his combos you can DI away or up and out to escape falco combos but you will still take like 40-60%

I hope this helps out!

Nice! Thoughts, anyone?

 

[Downdraft]

Nice! Thoughts, anyone?

No, the analysis seems great but is Zelda really a hard counter for Falco?

 

[Prynne]

No, the analysis seems great but is Zelda really a hard counter for Falco?

From experience no, but I am not a professional.

 

[Downdraft]

From experience no, but I am not a professional.

I'd second that notion; the matchup isn't particularly bad for Zelda, but it is still challenging.
At best, I'd give the matchup a 3 for 60:40.