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I'm willing to bet that if you play a Link, Falco, or ToonLink spammer, than you should never have as much problems as you're making it. Mario's fireballs are annoying, but they should never make it this much of a threat to any Yoshi player who knows when and where the time to attack is right.I really don't agree with the old match up thread. It's definitely not an even one. If it were up to me, i'd put it t at 7:3 for Mario.
Not agreeing with you. but I'll see what your reasons are.
Let's look at Mario's fireballs.
-fireballs breaks all of yoshi's grab game
True. I'll admit that they are annoying, but they have a downtime where you can attack. That should be your main focus to get a hit in.
-breaks yoshi's egg tossing game
Yoshi's egg toss is to be used from a distance where Mario won't be able to safely follow the fireball. If you're that close, you're going to get comboed.
-breaks yoshi's double jump
Fireball doesn't break it UNLESS you're doing an attack. I've gone through it at high percents, and the only move that has hit me out of my DJ is Mario's B-air.
-completely shuts down yoshi's ground game.
While this move gives us an annoyance, it is easy to ping out his fireball. Space F-tilts to ping them and say out of mario's range. If he's closing in too fast, then you need to just shield it. It doesn't shut down our game completely.
possible counters to fireballs?
-Back air? A real spammy mario will always short hop fireball. Sure you'd break maybe the first or second projectile, but upon landing you'll get hit by 3 more. Not only that, shorthopped fireballs can bounce on the ground and hit you from under your bair, giving mario the opportunity to advance and punish you. Bair can only work when you are real close to your opponent. That's the problem...it's impossible to get close.
No it's not. Mario can't throw out 3 fireballs as quick as you say cause as soon as he's done throwing a second one, the first one will begin to go away. Having it hit under you is bad, I'll admit that. However, the chances of that happening aren't that high cause you have to pick the right moment that it'll be coming upwards. Bair works when you swat away the fireballs, and at the same time, space against mario so that he can't counter unless he wants to get hit by a F-tilt. Not only that, but Usmash can limbo under fireballs and hit mario at the same time.
-Jabs? same thing. may work when you are close....Never try to stop them at a distance.
I don't use Jabs to stop fireballs so I can't comment here.
-Shield? LOLOLOLOLOLOL There really is only one thing you can do in a shield against fireballs....and that's rolling away. If you don't get hit, the cycle just continues. Only the most viable option when you are not going to be in a position to out range Mario.
The best option when Mario is closing in on you quickly and a fireball will give you enough hitstun to get comboed. If this isn't happening, then you don't need to shield (unless you have no time to sto pthe fireball).
-Airdodge? Mario will downair you after. fireballs will hit. etc etc
Expand on the etc. part. From looking at this part, it seems that you're trying to Airdodge past the fireball to get to Mario. This is exactly what he wants you to do lol. The fireball is to make you focus on that, so that Mario can punish whatever you do accordingly. This method isn't that good in nearly any scenario.
-Grabbing the ledge? Every yoshi player loves egg camping on the ledge. Yoshi usually has many options. He can egg throw, egg lay, down air, back air, forward air, and if you really wanted to get away, you can double jump airdodge. Unfortunately, against mario....that's what you have to do. mario can hit you with fireballs when you are edgegrabbing. Be careful double jumping, mario can break it. If you try egg tossing, mario can continue throwing fireballs either breaking your eggs with them or caping when they come close. Using an aerial can result to mario caping you to a possible gimp. Best bet? get away from the ledge asap. double jump and airdodge. You'd still probably get hit either after your dodge, on the ground or even with more fireballs...but at least you got away from that edge.
I'm gonna have to be the odd guy out and say that I don't really like camping the edge. Mario has enough tools to get you off of the edge, so you can't really camp there. The main thing you want is stage control (especially on platformed stages). Occasional ledge camping is fine as long as you don't do it with Mario close to the edge, or in a position to have a fireball fall to where you will get hit.
-Full jump over fireballs? What are you going to do after? Try to back air? It just doenst work. Since mario will be spamming, he knows that you will not try to land in front or in back of him. That means, he knows that you will directly attack him. All he has to do, is wait until you do. Shield and counter.
Only useful if you decide to egg lay him. You can Full Hop, and B-air him while you're falling (considering that you're spacing so that you don't get grabbed), but I don't use it so idk.
I took this out of context, but this part just got to me. Was Elef doing a rising air-dodge as he came back to stage? Because I can only imagine that he wasn't if you were able to score kills off of a cape.As for edgeguarding, my cape just demolished him, and fireballs wrecked him on the edge.
That's the same as saying Yoshi can gimp Mario with bair but it requires multiple bairs to do so.Mario can gimp Yoshi with the cape but it requires multiple capes to do so.
The cape works better than Bair since it goes through Yoshi's DJ armor and reverses momentum.That's the same as saying Yoshi can gimp Mario with bair but it requires multiple bairs to do so.
yoshiwell i dont find this match up as hard as some others but mario will short hopping ALOT- bairs walls, fireballs, dairs, nairs. so try to keep him from jumping (ground game is dangerous too). i find full hopping airealsto be helpful to counter fireballs in the mid range battles, predict short hopp aireal full hope a dair, maybe even bair or nair. in close range jabing is faster then all his moves. all his aireals can be pivot grabbed, just make just ur not far enough that he can use a fireball to punish a pivot grab.
mario
pro's
- can combo well
-good edge gaurding game
-fireballz are verstile projectile, camp, lead into combos, edgeguard, recovery, approach
-grab game is pretty good
-good air/short hop approaches
cons
-has trouble killing
-weak recovery
-no ground approaches (correct me if im wrong)
-not much range(cept bair, fsmash, dsmash)
yoshi
pro's
- good air game
- bair can go throw fireballs and combo well (puts mario in a bad position, above yoshi)
-pivot grab outranges aireals (careful for fireballs in far range)
- more range tilt range (not counting aireals)
- can edgegaurd
-nair can stop tilt to aireal combos
cons
-fireballz are hard to deal with
-horrible shield game (worst postion for yoshi)
-can be comboed pretty easily
-marios bair has prioty pain and range
bad positions (testing a new type of match up help)
close range shielding- this will get u destroyed as u want to avoid this positions at all cost, can lead to comboes, grabs, just alot of pain. worst position
when its coming- fire ball approach makes this happen alot more then it should, ets when u see/predict this coming. dair approach can make this happen not as well as fireball approaches.
how to stop it- absrob hit and roll, spot dodging (they are not good options but hte best u have)
recovering- a can range form not a threat to bad. depending if u recovering low which is bad or high which isnt a threat.
when its coming- if u get fsmash and live ull be pretty high which wont be too much of a problem. if u get dsmashed ull be recovering from mid to low.
how to stop it- recovering high u just gotta be careful not to do sumthing stupid. expect somefireballs on ur landing u dotn want to be close to mario. recovering mid to low is bad because u have a more direct and predictable path if u wanna get to the ledge. basically u want to get to the ledge fast and use eggs to stop him from precidting and sutff.
i might add more later
Actually Mario's ground options are faster:Fireball spam is not a problem with Yoshi. Yoshi can simply swat them away with his b-air and approach at the same time. When he is close to Mario, he has the bigger advantage because his ground moves are quicker and he has his pivot-grab. You are right about Fireballs stopping Yoshi's ground game, though.
yoshi's ground framesActually Mario's ground options are faster:
-Dsmash = 5 frames
-Fsmash = 15 frames
-Usmash = 10 frames
-Jab = 2 frames
-Ftilt = 5 frames
-Dtilt = 5 frames
-Utilt = 5 frames
-Cape = 12 frames
Sry I didn't include cooldown time, but if you really want it I could probably get it for you. Also, fireballs are used mainly for controlling approach and for setups, not just for spam.