Yoshi v. Mario

[YoshiIslander77z]

You forgot Yoshi Bomb, YoshiIslander. I believe that comes out in... 6 frames?

EDIT: And I thought that Yoshi's d-smash came out in 6 frames, not 5...

EDIT: And I also that that Yoshi's jab took 3 frames, not 2...

on snap add one to all of those i read the start up times instead of the time the move actually hits

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

yoshi
pro's
- (mario has a better airgame.) id say its more even, he was more ways to take advantage of his air game. yoshi does too

- (not reliable enough. even if you are close enough to mario, he can easily shield your bair. Mario isn't in a bad position over yoshi, his downair has is fast, has a lot of priority, and cannot be spot dodged....) use some jabs with the bair and u dont have to hit him just fan the fireballs away so that gets u in the range where u can use ur range. u should pivot grab aireals or space them bair is really the only aireal with range.

-((yep you said it, fireball spam. if you get hit by 1 fireball you get comboed. mario has still the advantage there.) not really mario cant combo everytime out of fire ball approach, it can lead into a jab grab but not everytime if u try to avoid it

- (what's the point? you'd have to go through all of the fireballs before even thinking of using tilts.) its not that hard as ur making it to be bair flames get urself into position

- (not as well as you might think. mario can cape jumping fair, and mario's up b out prioritizes yoshi's dair.) lol u should never recover like that vs mario, using an attack is just stupid especially those laggy ones, its not to hard to avoid the edgegaurd u just gotta becareful, recover from below djairdodge

-(nair can stop up tilt combos, but a smart mario would shield it when he sees it coming. in the air, best case senario, yoshi can exchnage hits with his nair.) its more a one time thing, like a surprise

welll i agree and disagree with some points. ur exagerating the match up especially the fireballs, sure there a pain but not as bad as u make it.
if u really have so much trouble with fireballs just get a partner to work on them.

 

[bigman40]

Just use this thread for frame data right now. It's completely accurate for Yoshi

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213922

 

[Elefterios]

welll i agree and disagree with some points. ur exagerating the match up especially the fireballs, sure there a pain but not as bad as u make it.
if u really have so much trouble with fireballs just get a partner to work on them.

To date, there hasn't been a video of this matchup where a mario has been as spammy as thatguy's. I watched bigman playing a mario on one of his recent video uptades. Despite him losing, it looked like an even matchup. The thing is, that mario barely used any fireballs. Sometimes he would approach with one or two, but those are easily avoidable. this is probably the kind of mario most of you have experienced.

This matchup quickly goes in mario's favour when he is spamming. Again, back airs forward tilts and jabs may ping mario's fireballs but they are not safe. ping one, you either get punished by your attack lag or get punished by an other fireball. Remember, alot of your options are cut of when grounded. Shielding is what mario wants, he can pressure your shield more than any other character. you cannot roll towards him, or spot dodge. Rolling away will only get you hit by the already moving fireballs, all while mario's approaching. spot dodging only delays the eventual hit from a fireball.

Just to make myself clear, mario's spamming is for approaching and setups. When one fireball hits, the best thing to do is literally retreat and try to approach again. (if you can =P). The reason this works so well against yoshi has everything to do with his shield. His shield and rolls are slow, and he cannot jump out of it. as soon as you shield against mario, you get punished for it.

Eggs, grabs, anything grounded are useless when approaching mario. Eggs might work the first time used in a match, but eventually they will be reflected.

Now that yoshi's ground game is completely shut down, you'd have to jump towards mario. The mario player already knows you cannot land directly in front of him. He knows that you either have 2 options, land in back of him, or try to directly attack from above. Whichever you choose, it would put yoshi in a bad spot. Mario can shield your nair and fair, he can jump towards dodge your aerial and attack the grounded yoshi, or simply out aerial you.

Saying that this matchup is even just doesn't make sense. It's a game of zoning, and mario is in control. This becomes like an obstacle course for yoshi, The goal is to avoid all fireballs, and hope to land an attack when mario is in his throwing fireball animation. If you don't get a hit in that time frame, yoshi is the one to get punished.

EDIT: I might go to my local weekly tomorrow, record a match and get someone to upload it.

 

[ThatGuy]

To date, there hasn't been a video of this matchup where a mario has played as spammy as thatguy's.

Fixed for clarification. I don't (get a chance to) play as spammy against other characters because they are able to handle it better.

I watched bigman playing a mario on one of his recent video uptades. Despite him losing, it looked like an even matchup. The thing is, that mario barely used any fireballs. Sometimes he would approach with one or two, but those are easily avoidable. this is probably the kind of mario most of you have experienced.

The inferior ones?

This matchup quickly goes in mario's favour when he is spamming. Again, back airs forward tilts and jabs may ping mario's fireballs but they are not safe. ping one, you either get punished by your attack lag or get punished by an other fireball. Remember, alot of your options are cut of when grounded. Shielding is what mario wants, he can pressure your shield more than any other character. you cannot roll towards him, or spot dodge. Rolling away will only get you hit by the already moving fireballs, all while mario's approaching. spot dodging only delays the eventual hit from a fireball.

Just to make myself clear, mario's spamming is for approaching and setups. When one fireball hits, the best thing to do is literally retreat and try to approach again. (if you can =P). The reason this works so well against yoshi has everything to do with his shield. His shield and rolls are slow, and he cannot jump out of it. as soon as you shield against mario, you get punished for it.

Bang on. This guy knows my Mario better than any other Mario player out there.

Eggs, grabs, anything grounded are useless when approaching mario. Eggs might work the first time used in a match, but eventually they will be reflected.

When approaching, yes. However, those god**** pivot grabs keep nailing me on my SH .

Now that yoshi's ground game is completely shut down, you'd have to jump towards mario. The mario player already knows you cannot land directly in front of him. He knows that you either have 2 options, land in back of him, or try to directly attack from above. Whichever you choose, it would put yoshi in a bad spot. Mario can shield your nair and fair, he can jump towards dodge your aerial and attack the grounded yoshi, or simply out aerial you.

Mario has a solid anti-air game overall, and Yoshi has a mediocre ground game further weakened by my playstyle.

Saying that this matchup is even just doesn't make sense. It's a game of zoning, and mario is in control. This becomes like an obstacle course for yoshi, The goal is to avoid all fireballs, and hope to land an attack when mario is in his throwing fireball animation. If you don't get a hit in that time frame, yoshi is the one to get punished.

I try to make this my goal for all matchups, not just Yoshi.

I think videos would be the best evidence for this. I'm not trying to act overconfident with hubris here (barring the obvious sarcastic comments), but I don't see how Mario vs. Yoshi is an even matchup. It's a solid counter.

This is with regards to offline play, by the way. Not to say that it's completely different online, but I hope you understand the difference it makes here.

 

[bigman40]

Nevertheless, until I find a Mario that does as such that you two describe, I'm not seeing this matchup any different than I saw it before. I don't normally input a lot in matchups anyway (not my thing really), but I just can't mentally see this happening to me. so, until I either see a video or play one similar to ThatGuy, then I'm just gonna think that it's even for me.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

u are mistaken about one thing, ive faced plenlty of spammy mario's. i guess ive gotta use to avoiding the spam. the main thing is MARIOS FIRE BALLS R SLOW and i think only 2 at a time can be out so if u dodge one with a jab u can then pivot grab or sumthing if he throws a fire ball guesss what hes gonna do. in this match up u seem to be negecting yoshi's ground game this should not be negected beacuse its medicore staying grounded is in my opioion better. just try to think of ways to stop it

-short hop airdoges
-bairs
-full hopped bairs
-retreating bairs
-learn how to use eggs in this matchup it will really help ets
-use ur fast air speed to stay in that magic range
-jabs retreat and throw 1 egg (u cant counter his spam but u can still throw some eggs)
find a pattern u just need some more practice in the match up it seems

notices how this wario stays in that magic range http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOApg7i2FSI
and try to counter it
find out how close u gotta be to shield grab him.
dont give up cuase it hard

 

[ThatGuy]

i guess ive gotta use to avoiding the spam. the main thing is MARIOS FIRE BALLS R SLOW

That's why they are good, not why they are bad.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

That's why they are good, not why they are bad.

u responded in like 20 seconds O.O wow

well that makes it predictable he seems like they keep are never ending and hits him every second

 

[Judge Judy]

yoshi's ground frames

-Dsmash = 5 frames

-Fsmash = 13 frames

-Usmash = 10 frames( hitting from behind yoshi)

-Jab = 2 frames

-Ftilt = 5 frames

-Dtilt = 7 frames

-Utilt = 7 frames

-egglay = 17 frames

not much of a difference

I'm pretty sure all of those moves come out about 1 frame slower than what you put, except for Utilt and egglay in which I think you're correct.

 

[:mad:]

How ca you guys have a serious conversation at a time like this?

 

[Judge Judy]

How ca you guys have a serious conversation at a time like this?

Different name colors and mod names don't affect much, I remember last April Fools when they had these really ******** text switches.

 

[KirinBlaze]

How ca you guys have a serious conversation at a time like this?

When I don't understand something I tend to not care.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

I'm pretty sure all of those moves come out about 1 frame slower than what you put, except for Utilt and egglay in which I think you're correct.

on snap add one to all of those i read the start up times instead of the time the move actually hits

u proally missed this post

 

[Judge Judy]

u proally missed this post

Lol, I guess I did XD

 

[Drakkhonian]

Ok,

So everyone is talking about fireballs and all, and how that ***** or not yoshi...
But the thing I didn't see was:
Isn't there any other way to stop those fireballs without bair?

I mean, I'm not too sure but, it seems jabs stops the fireballs and cancel your move, like when two attacks of the same strenght collides and both of them cancels.
That looks like a good thing to me since (speculation here guys) it leaves you there to act again, like you're ready to attack again. Wouldn't it be considered a "safe" option?

What I mean is, it let's you keep the distance, negate the fireballs, force the mario to approach (not a good place for them), if done correctly.

Now let's say that mario short hops the fireball, and it comes too high for jab (bad luck I guess). Can't we stop it with ftilt angled up?

What I mean is, does fireballs really stops Yoshi's groung game? Even if it stops some attacks, does it really completely decimate every single ground optioin Yoshi has?

Edit: So I see people said stuff about canceling the freballs of doom with jabs and tilts and said it didn't work. But these people said they got into shield just after. What I'm suggesting is: Cancel it with jab or tilt and DON'T get into shield. Maybe Usmash, or even Utilt if mario is coming from above, or maybe cancel the fireball and he gets in range for pivot grab?
Ok, so as this edit is looking like a new post, I'm gonna finish in one line: Is everyone sure we exausted every ground option against mario AFTER jabing/tilting his fireballs?

There ya go, my view, love ya!

 

[Judge Judy]

If you're using atks just to get rid of fireballs, you're almost certainly going to be punished. One of the main things I like to do is use FLUDD to get my opponent into just the right spacing for a fireball setup, something like fireball to Usmash or Dair since they're both high-priority and fairly safe moves.

 

[Drakkhonian]

Ok,

So let's just ask a mario player here:

What would you do if you saw a yoshi cancelling your fireballs, one by one, with just jabbing, and worse he doesn't finish the jab animation, he actually cancels the animation every single time, then what do you do?

 

[Elefterios]

Ok,

So let's just ask a mario player here:

What would you do if you saw a yoshi cancelling your fireballs, one by one, with just jabbing, and worse he doesn't finish the jab animation, he actually cancels the animation every single time, then what do you do?

impossible, fireballs bounce. yoshi's jabs can only shield part of his body. They can still land above him.

You have to remember that while mario is throwing fireballs, he is also approaching you. So if you use a move to ping out his fireballs, yoyu become defenseless and vulnerable to mario's attacks.

 

[Drakkhonian]

impossible, fireballs bounce. yoshi's jabs can only shield part of his body. They can still land above him.

Try spacing just so that you can hit them with jab, and that is not even counting the tilts.
It's really rare a chance you can't space right to cancel it with jab, even when it bounces.

You have to remember that while mario is throwing fireballs, he is also approaching you. So if you use a move to ping out his fireballs, yoyu become defenseless and vulnerable to mario's attacks.

Ok so, let's do this by 3 pieces: 1-Remeber the mario is aprroaching you, 2- ping out his fireballs, 3- becoming defenseless and vulnerable to his attacks.

I wanna start with number 2, and I hope you'll understand why: By cancelling I don't mean making an attack go TRHOUGH it, I meant an attack cancelling WITH it, and that's why I chose the jab.

Then there's numer 3: if you actually meant what I said before, I can't really understand how cancelling a move actually makes you vulnerable, since once both moves are cancelled you can do any move you want (even roll if you wish, but I wouldn't recommend that) that is a ground move. Cancelling doesn't seems to have any lag if done correctely, and even if it does, it's so little it doesn't matter.

And then there's the number 1: Mario is approaching! OMFG Run AWAY!!!
Jokes aside, mario IS approaching, fact. But is that really a bad thing? I would like to recall once on the Ivysaur matchup discussion we had long ago. We said back then we would wanted it to approach. Because once it did approach, we could read it's moves and counter as we pleased. In fact, the fight was pretty much decided on this: You attack first, you die. He attacks first, he dies. It's almost the same concept here, but now it's just a little harder to see: If you try to go all out with mario, you lose (and by that I mean a GIANT KICK IN THE), but what if you can see his attack coming somehow (it can be from a short hop that get's him in attack range)?
I say counter him. Don't try to run, or shield, or dodge away to the sides. Find a way to make his attack to be punishable (pivot grab maybe, or maybe an Usmash).

Fact is, as it was stated on this very thread, yoshi has more options approaching than mario, and mario has safer approaches. Safer approaches if looked separated from the context of the fight. What I mean is, even the safest of approaches, if countered the right way, is not completely safe. So that does mean you can find a little hole in his approach that comes after fireballs. And since we have MORE approaches, means more options to deal with his approaches after fireballs.

So now you may ask, how am I supposed to know when this guy is going to attack?
That's when it gets kinda hard. When you cancel the fireballs you are actually baiting him to attack. After that it's just quick reflexes in work.

I can actually say I fought some pretty good marios here, and that jabbing the fireballs, as stupid as it may seem, works if you know how to do it. Of course, if anything goes wrong with your cancelling or spacing you're pretty much screwed.

Thats my in-depth response, Love ya! (PS: don't get mad at me for being kinda stubborn or even for having big replies, I just wanna be sure I'm doing my best)

 

[Judge Judy]

Ok,

So let's just ask a mario player here:

What would you do if you saw a yoshi cancelling your fireballs, one by one, with just jabbing, and worse he doesn't finish the jab animation, he actually cancels the animation every single time, then what do you do?

It really depends but I could just go for a jab myself if I'm following-up with them.

 

[ThatGuy]

Ok,

So let's just ask a mario player here:

What would you do if you saw a yoshi cancelling your fireballs, one by one, with just jabbing, and worse he doesn't finish the jab animation, he actually cancels the animation every single time, then what do you do?

Hi,

I usually throw more fireballs.

Cheers!

 

[Drakkhonian]

I usually throw more fireballs.

So, even if you are approaching with fireballs, and I'm cancelling them, when you are starting to get close...you just throw more fireballz ? o.O

Wouldn't it make an opening for our approach?

 

[Shiri]

When I use Mario against Yoshi, I just keep throwing them LOL.

The premise behind it isn't simply to spam (unless I know the person can't deal with it), but rather that since Mario beats Yoshi on several levels of play anyway, if the best he can do is tie with fireballs and not be able to get over or around that particular brickwall, then f*ck if I should stop throwing them, LOL. Seriously, if he can't do better than meeting me halfway, I'll keep throwing until I have an opening, get bored, or he beats it.

I'm not saying Mario's fireballs absolutely obliterate Yoshi, but if you can't get around them, they will really make the matchup not even worth playing.

 

[ThatGuy]

It really depends but I could just go for a jab myself if I'm following-up with them.

You probably shouldn't, Yoshi's jabs usually beat Mario up if you get close.

So, even if you are approaching with fireballs, and I'm cancelling them, when you are starting to get close...you just throw more fireballz ? o.O

Wouldn't it make an opening for our approach?

Read Shiri's reply, he nailed it on the head.

 

[Judge Judy]

You probably shouldn't, Yoshi's jabs usually beat Mario up if you get close.

Mario's jab is faster than Yoshi's and the third hit has good priority and range. Anyway, I said that it really depends and the scenario given was pretty unreasonable and unpractical in the first place.

Read Shiri's reply, he nailed it on the head.

I did, he's right.

 

[Drakkhonian]

Nice Shiri,

What you said is really true, if it's working keep it up till an opening opens. That why what I usually do is bait them with cancels and jumps so they think they're safe. Mind games goes forever. Baiting with cancels works for me, so gonna keep going.

And you're absolutely right: No way to deal with fireballs makes it 35:65 mario, Get used to dealing with fireballs 55:45 mario to 50:50.

It's just, some people make the fireball look like the end of the world. I thought I might clarify a little.

Love ya!

 

[Shiri]

Yeah, I agree. If you can't deal with the fire, then it's a terrible match.

If you can deal with it or know ways around it or find openings in the opponent's playstyle, the matchup becomes much less lopsided.

Glad we could agree on that.

There are very few characters who I think beat Yoshi outright, but I do think Mario is one of them that do and it's important to know why he beats Yoshi and how to get around it.

 

[ThatGuy]

Mario's jab is faster than Yoshi's and the third hit has good priority and range. Anyway, I said that it really depends and the scenario given was pretty unreasonable and unpractical in the first place.

True, but Yoshi's jab has much more range and if anything he would be the one throwing them out first.

I did, he's right.

'Twas meant for the other guy, but I'm glad you read it too I guess

 

[Poltergust]

I dunno. I never really had trouble with Mario and his Fireball spam. Maybe it's a personal thing. =/

 

[Judge Judy]

True, but Yoshi's jab has much more range and if anything he would be the one throwing them out first.

His initial jab does not have that much range and if it really came to range, Usmash would be able to eat right through it; remember the guy was talking about jab canceling.

 

[Drakkhonian]

His initial jab does not have that much range and if it really came to range, Usmash would be able to eat right through it; remember the guy was talking about jab canceling.

"the guy", that was lovely! ^_^

Anyway, yes I was talking about jab cancelling, but no, there is time for jab or tilt so Up-smash is a terrible opening you give us in this case. I've seem marios try it on me and it doesn't work, easy to read, and Jab is faster than U-smash (or so I believe).

Edit: Love ya! (can't believe I forgot THAT one out)

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

can i see the frames for the fireballs
and we need more mario users if they had more expirence with yoshi

 

[Krooton]

I really don't have any trouble against mario and my friend is a really good mario main. Good enough that he and the best mario and SoCal almost did a money match for the title. I think your best bet is to edge guard his coin job and watch out for the fireballs. Use eggs so he is forced to use the cape to defend then abuse with your grab game.