Yoshi v. Ike

[.Marik]

Just because I don't have the same idea of the matchup ratio doesn't mean I'm wrong lol.

People please read kthx.

He probably sucks Jk Jk lets see how you do.

To be honest, he's really bad with recovering loool.

Yes, Ike is so very powerful. We get launched and KO'd as low as 39-52%, when we're at the edge of a stage. But, as I said before, we have to lure and bait Ike through eggs, tilts, and aerials. I wouldn't fight an Ike up close, and get aggressive with him, but the cooldown lag on his moves make him easily exploitable and he gets punished for it.

I've already established and acknowledged Ike's offensive and defensive strengths and weaknesses. We have the air and camp priority, and Ike has ground priority. Yoshi can still lure and bait with eggs and aerials.

Theres your argument, i hope i didnt come off as rude, but you dont seem like you have experience with the matchup/know how ike rolls

I know how Ike rolls, I haven't really played a professional Ike, but I still know the basics, I suppose. It's much harder to write it down in a sense everyone understands. Lol you're not being rude, but I do have different ideas of the matchup, and still have stated points everyone seems to agree or disagree on.

Spacing in this will either make the match, or break it. Being aggressive with close range attacks will get you *****. Camping from a distance works pretty well for a while.

Agreed. To be honest, Grabs are going to mess Ike up. Ike can easily be spiked, no?

Marik, who is this "decent" Ike you keep talking about? Because chances are he sucks, especially based on what you think of the match-up. For crying out loud, you mentioned Fsmash as if good Ikes will randomly throw it out after a dash attack. Watch videos of Kirk, San, or metroid. They are good Ikes. If they use Fsmash, it hits more often then misses because they know when to use it

He does suck lol, but I still have enough experience to understand the matchup. He's not the only ****ing Ike I've ever played in my entire life. I don't think you understand how good FSmash is. When Ike does a Jab>Dash attack and hits it, it causes us to trip. FSmash, and we can't do anything about it. After particular mindgames, FSmash comes out of the blue, and since we weren't expecting it, our shield animation doesn't come out in time. We can't be shieldpoked, so that's also an advantage if we manage to get the shield out in a certain number of frames before the FSmash is initiated. An Ike that's good at all won't overuse it, but they will use it out of the blue.

And Ike combos. What part of "Jab Combos" says that he can't combo? Nair -> Jab -> Grab -> Bthrow -> Dash Attack is a combo right there, with a whooping 1 or 2 frames in which you can escape from. And I have yet to seen anyone escape a jab -> grab attempt.

Those are situational. I read the Ike guiide on the Ike Boards, and a Ike player said himself Ike can't combo. I assume he knows what he's talking about? I can link if required.

BTW: You must not have read that "How to properly discuss match-ups" topic. Baiting is a HUMAN thing, not a character quality. Same with predictability. We're not talking about human qualities, but character qualities. I could argue Ike can bait well with Nair due to it's ACing, and the fact if we bait an AD, you will get hit with Uair due to the fact it outlasts ADs. The baiting part is irrelevant. The only good bits of info that I said in the last sentence is that Nair ACs and Uair outlasting ADs.

No, that's redundant because:

Thats ********. BAITING IS AN OPTION OF THE CHARACTER. Yoshi can bait with ETS cuz its one of his moves and it forces certain responses.

Condensed version of my post:

Ike hates eggs and gimping him will kill you. Spacing and Egg spaming is the key here.

Perfectly stated. Yoshi needs to remain collected, calm and defensive the entire match. We need to spam and lure too.

Polt stop saying an airdodge will save us every time, it will not. Good opponents read airdodges and punish you hard, and ike especially.

Lol UpSmash is so hard to avoid at times.

Ha, yeah saying it's a player attribute really doesn't work. Since as you said burnt, ANY character can bait. Ike has the "ability" to bait and airdodge at any time he wishes

But it's the applications which a character can perform while "baiting" that actually counts.

Face it, Ike can overpower us and kill Yoshi very easily and early if not approached properly. However, as any good Yoshi will realize, we need to play defensive, camp, spam, and take advanatage of Ike's laggy cooldown attacks with tilts, aerials, and various other quick, unpredictable attacks. Pivot Grabs are amazing here.

 

[Poltergust]

Doesn't Ike have some moves that actually out-range the pivot-grab?

To tell you the truth, I find myself dash-grabbing more than pivot-grabbing to punish whiffed attacks.

 

[.Marik]

Doesn't Ike have some moves that actually out-range the pivot-grab?

Probably FTilt...

To tell you the truth, I find myself dash-grabbing more than pivot-grabbing to punish whiffed attacks.

Really? Pivot Grabs are hardly punishable if done correctly, though. Whereas a running Grab can miss...

Yeah, not pretty. Can you define what you mean by "whiffed attacks"?

 

[Poltergust]

Uh... whiffed attacks are missed attacks. I'm talking about moves such as his f-air and f-tilt and such...

And like I said, Ike actually has some moves that out-range the pivot-grab, I believe. So even if you do pivot-grab it won't reach him. A dash-grab has more range.

 

[.Marik]

Uh... whiffed attacks are missed attacks. I'm talking about moves such as his f-air and f-tilt and such...

And like I said, Ike actually has some moves that out-range the pivot-grab, I believe. So even if you do pivot-grab it won't reach him. A dash-grab has more range.

Oh, I see what you mean.

Dash Grabs are good in that case. But if he spotdodges?

At least with Pivot Grabs, we aren't as vulnerable.

But I understand where you're coming from. Both have their advantages.

 

[Shiri]

I also attempt punishes with dash grabs. Pivots are almost useless here.

 

[.Marik]

Pivot Grabs always work for me lol.

As a defensive gesture, I'd say go for it. As an offensive, I'd say Dash Grab.

This thread has over 100 replies? Man, that's a lot. =\

 

[Gindler]

I do hate pivot grabbing only to have a Fair bop me on the nose. That jab is too beast too. Polt you get to play ryo yet? I mean he beat seibrik's MK with Ike so he must be pretty good

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Ryo is nastee!!! I have to play him too.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

He does suck lol, but I still have enough experience to understand the matchup. He's not the only ****ing Ike I've ever played in my entire life. I don't think you understand how good FSmash is. When Ike does a Jab>Dash attack and hits it, it causes us to trip. FSmash, and we can't do anything about it. After particular mindgames, FSmash comes out of the blue, and since we weren't expecting it, our shield animation doesn't come out in time. We can't be shieldpoked, so that's also an advantage if we manage to get the shield out in a certain number of frames before the FSmash is initiated. An Ike that's good at all won't overuse it, but they will use it out of the blue.

I'm confident I now how to use Ike's Fsmash more then you do. Jab -> Dash Attack is a terrible string, too laggy and there are better options. Dash Attack also doesn't force a trip, otherwise that Bthrow -> Dash Attack string would have something after the dash attack.

Those are situational. I read the Ike guiide on the Ike Boards, and a Ike player said himself Ike can't combo. I assume he knows what he's talking about? I can link if required.

The guide is old, and who said it?

Face it, Ike can overpower us and kill Yoshi very easily and early if not approached properly. However, as any good Yoshi will realize, we need to play defensive, camp, spam, and take advanatage of Ike's laggy cooldown attacks with tilts, aerials, and various other quick, unpredictable attacks. Pivot Grabs are amazing here.

As mentioned already, Ike has attacks that outrange Pivot Grabs. Fair, Ftilt, Fsmash (that would REALLY suck for Yoshi. lol But I'm thinking it might be too slow unless we saw it coming) Not sure if Bair would or not, I'm thinking not though.

 

[.Marik]

I'm confident I now how to use Ike's Fsmash more then you do. Jab -> Dash Attack is a terrible string, too laggy and there are better options. Dash Attack also doesn't force a trip

It really forces us into the trip animation after the tip of the Dash Attack has hit us. I'm sure it's situational and only happens sometimes, but it's still very good FSmash bait.

The guide is old, and who said it?

Let me find the link.

As mentioned already, Ike has attacks that outrange Pivot Grabs. Fair, Ftilt, Fsmash (that would REALLY suck for Yoshi. lol But I'm thinking it might be too slow unless we saw it coming) Not sure if Bair would or not, I'm thinking not though.

No, when Ike misses an attack, I run up and Pivot Grab if I'm close enough. If not, I'll usually Dash Attack and Grab.

Why would you guys even wait for Ike to perform an attack to Pivot Grab? You obviously do it when he's vulnerable and Yoshi is close enough. Run>Pivot Grab= Little time for Ike to react. When you Dash Attack>Grab, you could miss, Ike could spotdodge, but granted, it usually is more convenient for Yoshi if everything works out properly. I've never missed a Pivot Grab on an opponent if they're vulnerable and open.

Still, you guys are providing a good Debate for me. I'm still not sure what matchup ratio would be deemed appropriate.

*Edit* http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170241

Ike guide by Empy. Pardon me, he didn't say "Ike can't combo", just that he's "horrible" at it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Empy hasn't been on the Ike boards forever. >_>

 

[Kimchi]

I've just read about 3 pages of discussion on the matchup and I got a handful of things to say.

Why would you guys even wait for Ike to perform an attack to Pivot Grab? You obviously do it when he's vulnerable and Yoshi is close enough. Run>Pivot Grab= Little time for Ike to react. When you Dash Attack>Grab, you could miss, Ike could spotdodge, but granted, it usually is more convenient for Yoshi if everything works out properly. I've never missed a Pivot Grab on an opponent if they're vulnerable and open.

Sorry to say, but Pivot Grabs won't cut it against a good Ike. If Ike misses a Fair in front of Yoshi and the Yoshi dashes past to try to pivot grab, a good Ike will just pivot jab instead of shielding. I'm no Yoshi main, but retreating pivot grab would be a smarter choice.[/QUOTE]

I don't know where you got your information about those supposed 'Jab Combos' but I can assure you that almost anything Ike does IS escapable and if it is not escaped it is the error of the opponant.

You realize that Bthrow -> Dash attack for Ike is a true combo right? Niddo also pointed that Jab -> Jab is also a true combo.

The thing about fighting Ike is that he is going to want to play safetly and defensively, where he keeps you at a safe distance using retreating Fairs and just his range in general.
Ikes range seems to me to be his biggest strength, so the way to play this matchup as far as I see it is to get Ike to appraoch you by PLAYING VERY CAUTIOUSLY and defensively.
The trick to this entire matchup is avoiding Ikes attacks and then taking advantage of the slow startup of most of his moves by hitting him first.

Hitting Ike before he actually unleashes his moves first will only get you so far. Ike doesn't have to approach only aerially you know. His ground approach is pretty decent as well. An aggressive Ike can be just as effective as a defensive Ike. I'll give Yoshi credit though; his retreating pivot grab can make an Ike ground approach pretty difficult.

This of course leads me to what I consider Ikes beat weapon... his Jab. Unlike his other moves the Jab is quick does damage and kocks u away again. Nobody better be coming in here and talking about multiple signle hit Jab cancels from Ike though because that is EASILY escapable offline and shouldn't cause any problem. Because his grab is also fast and he can Jab > Grab that is also a deadly tool for Ike. Thankfully its lack of range makes it a bit less usefull.

Even if it is escapable, are you honestly going to try to escape Ike's jab by SDIing the direction behind you or up? If you SDI back, you'll most likely go offstage or Ike can follow up with Dash attack. If you SDI up and behind Ike, he can simply pivot jab. Reiterating what niddo said before, two single jabs is a true combo and Ike can use these multiple times to rack up damage very quickly.

Bassically, the way to win against Ike is to simply NOT BE AGRESSIVE! If you go in there and try to punish all Ikes moves and try to get in his face you will be destroyed by any competant Ike and the matchup will seem hard.
Just be smart with defensive play and ETS eggs from afar to try and get Ike to approach and avoid whatever he throws at you to get within close range of him.
I cannot stress this enough, concentrate on avoiding Ikes attacks because he hits hard, avoidance really is the Key in this MU and SHAD works very well for retreating away or getting through his wall.
Don't be tempted into going after Ike, force him to come to you.

I've seen almost every Yoshi agree with this statement but I don't know, the only projectile that Yoshi has is his egg and it becomes extremely predictable to powershield for Ike if Ike and Yoshi are far apart. As far as I know, a really patient Ike could force a Yoshi to approach, too by standing still and powershielding everything, unless that would be accused of stalling. Don't get me wrong, Yoshi's egg is great for forcing Ike to approach, but abusing his egg too much can work against him against Ike, because Ike then will usually go for a ground approach and his ground approach is pretty good.

When you do manage to breach Ikes wall that he builds from his range...
Thats when the damage can be done. Once you are past his range advantage and in his face, thats where you are at the advantage thanks to the better speed, you can get off a couple of attacks before he can do anything and he is especially vunerable in this situation when he is in the air, on the ground you still have to be very careful because he can shieldgrab you and he has that bloody Jab to rely on.
But the biggest thing here is being smart and knowing when to retreat again, continually trying to stay in Ikes face isn't going to work so you have to be smart and know when to get out of there.

Yoshi has some things that helps him in close combat such as his own jab. Yoshi's A attack comes out pretty fast and a side-stepping happy Ike will get kicked a bunch of times. Yoshi's Ftilt is also pretty useful IMO, but again you're right in saying Ike completely dominates the ground game here.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that Ikes dash attack can be very daunting, but if you learn its range you can easily avoid it and see it coming.
And another really important aspect of playaing against Ike is keeping him off the edge as much as possible and not letting him return to the stage.

I don't think too many Ikes will abuse their dash attack against Yoshi, what with that retreating pivot grab -.-.

Yoshi has better air control than Ike, but thats not saying much here. Ike has better ground control, reach, and overall killing power than Yoshi does. Yoshi can't gimp Ike when he is near the ledge either, due to Aether. Yoshi has eggs that can destroy Ike, and the eggs are what win him the match mostly. DJ fails against a well timed F-Smash from Ike, so its grab the ledge or die. N-air is also a good spacing move against Ike. Egg Roll gets you killed, as does whiffing a grab as Ike can punish you with an F-Smash or D-Smash. U-Smash from Yoshi is very hard to hit in this match-up, especially if the Ike predicts you.

The match-up I would say is in Ike's favor, due to him having really only thing to come over, and that is Yoshi's eggs. He has better power, reach, and an overall better ground game than Yoshi. Yoshi only has his eggs.

This summary is pretty accurate with the exception of the advantages of Yoshi. Yoshi does have some great aerial approaches against Ike, especially his Bair and his Dash attack is pretty useful as well IMO. However, like you said, egg toss is what really Yoshi has over Ike.

Also, it really does depend on the situation to whether Yoshi should air dodge against Ike when recovering. For example, if Yoshi's trying to recover <-- with his DJ and Ike is aethering forward, meaning <-, than Yoshi SHOULD Air dodge, because the tip of Aether would break Yoshi's SA frames and drag him down. Meanwhile, if Yoshi's DJing <-- and Ike is aethering ->, than Yoshi shouldn't air dodge, because he's passing right through Ike's aether. Poltergust also recommended something very important; do not egg cancel stall or whatever on the ledge, because Ike can just PS the egg and Dtilt you guys :/. I've also landed a Fsmash on a Yoshi today who was egg cancel stalling :[.
I still think: vs is 50:50 or 55:45 Ike's favor, because what Tony_ said before is that Ike just has to overcome Yoshi's egg toss as well as his awkward aerial approaches.

 

[DarkLeviathan89]

Just a few quick thoughts.

As said, I would not use ECEs (Edge Cancelled Eggs) against Ike. Eggs themselves are useful, but like in any matchup, I try not to overuse them in order to not make them too predictable, since they can be powershielded fairly easily. And yeah, it's not easy to pivot grab them at all, though it still has its uses here.

I'm unusual in that I try to recover high instead of low like most Yoshi's, so I think I might have an easier time recovering against Ike compared to others. Not too sure about that though.

Anybody have stage counterpick suggestions against Ike?

 

[Chaco]

Stages where QD can go through the platform and lead to an SD. :D

 

[Kimchi]

Final Destination is the most useful neutral I think because it's easy to camp with eggs as well as Yoshi's ****ed chain grab. Not entirely sure what would be a good CP for Yoshi against Ike though.

 

[Chaco]

We could take you to RC. It depends though.

 

[Poltergust]

The only legal stages (that I can think of) that are like that are Halberd, Brinstar, Delfino Plaza, and Rainbow Cruise. The first two are complete no-nos since they are incredibly small. Delfino Plaza can work as long as you don't fall into the water. Rainbow Cruise just owns since Ike has a hard time navigating through the stage and his air-game is not as good as Yoshi's. They'll most likely ban Rainbow Cruise, though. =(

As for neutrals, Yoshi's Island seems like the way to go. I heard Ike has some weird problems in that stage.

EDIT: Ninja'd AGAIN! -_-;

FD would probably be Yoshi's second best choice for neutrals. Ike would probably be good on Battlefield, though. No chain-grab, and he has a lot of moves that hit through the platforms.

 

[DarkLeviathan89]

Stages where QD can go through the platform and lead to an SD. :D

Wow, I was actually thinking of that, lol.

And yeah, I was thinking Halberd at first, but that's a no-go. Small stage and low ceiling means Ike gets kills easily there I would think.

I like Delfino as a stage in general, but I think that would work fairly well. That one part with several columns might pose a problem because of its low ceiling but otherwise it's probably fine.

Ike would definitely do well in Battlefield. Yoshi's Island... I'm not too sure about that, but I'd rather go there then BF anyway.

And I agree that FD is probably one of the safer choices, especially in the neutrals.

 

[Chaco]

I'd say no to YI. I just don't like the stage for Ike.

 

[Deleted member]

Eggs dont win matchups, they get powershielded easy and often leave you open for stuff. What they do: Force approaches, limit options because certain areas are now limited by an egg, force shields(this is key in this matchup), and disrupt edgeguarders/edgeguard. What yoshi wants to do is try to not go head to head with an ike in neutral position, and use eggs to get ike in a more favorable position for yoshi (or you, a place where you feel more comfortable). How this applies, like most heavies, yoshi does best when they are being combod(duh), and eggs are basically yoshis way to open up ike for bairs and damaging approaches. Ike has a very hard time getting down cuz his airspeed is crap and his down air, tho good, is reallyy predictable, and we can just rising bair or something.
Yey

Stages,, ehh no water stages we get owned there. Id stick with neutrals and frigate orpheon.

 

[Poltergust]

I think that Jungle Japes can also work extremely well. The high ceiling helps a lot, and if Ike touches the water on the left side he's dead.

So RC and JJ are my recommendations for CP stages.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike will almost always ban JJ, and some Ikes actually use RC as a CP. Ike actually doesn't do bad there, thanks to his massive range in the air. If we keep our front to you, very few characters can get past the fair.

frigate orpheon is a safe bet, just be aware that the ledgeless side = free dtilt spikes/fsmash for Ike.

 

[.Marik]

But retreating pivot grab would be a smarter choice.

That's what I've been talking about the entire ****ing time. We don't need to run past Ike in order to perform a Pivot Grab. That's just silly. We simply run up, turn around, (on the same side we ran up from) and Pivot Grab.

We could take you to RC. It depends though.

Rainbow Cruise is seriously the best CP stage for Yoshi in the entire game. I'm dead serious, I've never lost a match in a Tournament there before.

 

[Airborne]

Rainbow Cruise is seriously the best CP stage for Yoshi in the entire game. I'm dead serious, I've never lost a match in a Tournament there before.

have you never faced a character there with a good air game? played by a good player? not fun.

 

[.Marik]

have you never faced a character there with a good air game? played by a good player? not fun.

Many times. Toon Link, Marth, Luigi, MetaKnight, you name it.

And I won, even though MetaKnight is supposed to ****-no-questions-asked on Rainbow Cruise.

 

[Poltergust]

I completely agree with MarikYoshi. RC is too good for Yoshi. <3

 

[Deleted member]

Funny, cuz RC is my ban every time

 

[.Marik]

Funny, cuz RC is my ban every time

...

You should try it someday. Yoshi can take advantage of his quirky and efficient aerial moveset on Rainbow Cruise.

Rising aerials, Uair, Egg Spam/UpB, Dair...

Yoshi ***** on Rainbow Cruise. :\

 

[Deleted member]

Its too movey for me.
Also, if you play a MK there and you win, they need to get better.
I played a MK who i 1-2 stock and on RC he 3 stocked me not joking XD

 

[Poltergust]

No, you just need to play there more, Sockz. THAT'S why you got ***** on RC.

 

[Delta-cod]

Norfair is my personal favorite stage. I love dancing around all the platforms with eggs and performing rising aerials through them. I find that I've been able to camp the center platform with eggs and grabbing my opponent when they try to come get me works well too. Kind of like that match with Green Ace vs. that one Ike on Jungle Japes.

I've tried Rainbow Cruise but I don't do as well on it. I don't play there much, though. =/

 

[~Firefly~]

You do not want to face Ike on Battlefield; it's probably his best neutral. He loves the platforms, and can do all sorts of dangerous things there. The hitbox on his Usmash can cover an entire platform, and his attacks just generally become more difficult to avoid. Yoshi could probably establish a good defensive position with the help of the platforms, but they'll likely help Ike a lot more than they will Yoshi.

 

[Kimchi]

Ike actually has several things going for him at Jungle Japes. The only thing he pretty much has to worry about at Japes is recovering from the water. Everything else pretty much benefits him, especially the platforms as well as the high ceiling.

 

[Poltergust]

Wait... why would the high ceiling benefit Ike? I don't see the logic there... @_@

 

[Metatitan]

Because a high ceiling doesn't really affect his killing capabilities. He's that good at KOing.

 

[Poltergust]

I think I prefer getting killed by Ike's u-tilt at 160% on JJ than on 120% on FD, thank you.

Whatever. We still have like a ton of counterpicks against him. RC, FD, and maybe even Castle Siege work well...

 

[Metatitan]

Yeah but realize you'll be able to kill him less. So yeah have fun with that lol.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Meta does bring a good point...Then again, I wouldn't counterpick Jungle Japes in the first place.

 

[Delta-cod]

But we shouldn't have a real problem killing Ike on that stage if we get him with a dtilt, dash attack, or dsmash. If we can get him into the water, he shouldn't be able to recover easily. It may actually make killing Ike easier, seeing as how we don't have to kill him off the top or sides, just hit him downwards. Also, it would make gimping him easier because if he takes the time to air dodge or attack, he may end up in the water.