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Yoshi v. Ike
- Thread starter Shiri
- Start date
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B8fqSLwSbw&feature=related
Second video. I *think* he used a few more eggs. He also got fake'd out by a taunt though, so I don't think it's the best video to use here. >_> I'll keep digging, youtube finally stopped crapping out for me.
EDIT: Aaaaaaand the rest of the Ike VS Yoshi videos on youtube appear to be crap.
Second video. I *think* he used a few more eggs. He also got fake'd out by a taunt though, so I don't think it's the best video to use here. >_> I'll keep digging, youtube finally stopped crapping out for me.
EDIT: Aaaaaaand the rest of the Ike VS Yoshi videos on youtube appear to be crap.
I'd say so, lol.
Ikes and Yoshis are both a rarity. So it's hard to find videos of Ike vs Yoshi. I play Pentasalia, if you know him. He thinks Yoshi destroys Ike now. But it's online when I play him, so i wouldn't judge that much.
Ikes and Yoshis are both a rarity. So it's hard to find videos of Ike vs Yoshi. I play Pentasalia, if you know him. He thinks Yoshi destroys Ike now. But it's online when I play him, so i wouldn't judge that much.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I can possibly play Bwett at FS6. Problem is: I suck at Brawl. My reaction time is too slow for me to get far. A_B is going there, maybe they can play a few rounds, seeing as A_B is probably the best Ike in the south half of the US.
Pentasalia I've seen on the boards a few times, but I don't remember a thing about how he plays. I don't think he's placed in a tournament either....
I'd be willing to play a few online rounds with you if you want. I'll probably lose, but I want to see Egg Camping for myself. And if in the odd change I end up in the same pool as Bwett, I won't be quite as destroyed. XD
Pentasalia I've seen on the boards a few times, but I don't remember a thing about how he plays. I don't think he's placed in a tournament either....
I'd be willing to play a few online rounds with you if you want. I'll probably lose, but I want to see Egg Camping for myself. And if in the odd change I end up in the same pool as Bwett, I won't be quite as destroyed. XD
Ok, first of all... that Yoshi simply wasn't very good. The Ike wasn't amazing either but deffinatly better than the Yoshi.
I actually don't think this matchup is in Ikes favour and I don't think Ike is the better character.
I don't know where you got your information about those supposed 'Jab Combos' but I can assure you that almost anything Ike does IS escapable and if it is not escaped it is the error of the opponant.
The thing about fighting Ike is that he is going to want to play safetly and defensively, where he keeps you at a safe distance using retreating Fairs and just his range in general.
Ikes range seems to me to be his biggest strength, so the way to play this matchup as far as I see it is to get Ike to appraoch you by PLAYING VERY CAUTIOUSLY and defensively.
The trick to this entire matchup is avoiding Ikes attacks and then taking advantage of the slow startup of most of his moves by hitting him first.
This of course leads me to what I consider Ikes beat weapon... his Jab. Unlike his other moves the Jab is quick does damage and kocks u away again. Nobody better be coming in here and talking about multiple signle hit Jab cancels from Ike though because that is EASILY escapable offline and shouldn't cause any problem. Because his grab is also fast and he can Jab > Grab that is also a deadly tool for Ike. Thankfully its lack of range makes it a bit less usefull.
Before anyone accuses me of this, I am not saying it is not difficult to deal with... Im just saying he is not as bigger threat as he is being made out to be if you know the matchup.
Bassically, the way to win against Ike is to simply NOT BE AGRESSIVE! If you go in there and try to punish all Ikes moves and try to get in his face you will be destroyed by any competant Ike and the matchup will seem hard.
Just be smart with defensive play and ETS eggs from afar to try and get Ike to approach and avoid whatever he throws at you to get within close range of him.
I cannot stress this enough, concentrate on avoiding Ikes attacks because he hits hard, avoidance really is the Key in this MU and SHAD works very well for retreating away or getting through his wall.
Don't be tempted into going after Ike, force him to come to you.
When you do manage to breach Ikes wall that he builds from his range...
Thats when the damage can be done. Once you are past his range advantage and in his face, thats where you are at the advantage thanks to the better speed, you can get off a couple of attacks before he can do anything and he is especially vunerable in this situation when he is in the air, on the ground you still have to be very careful because he can shieldgrab you and he has that bloody Jab to rely on.
But the biggest thing here is being smart and knowing when to retreat again, continually trying to stay in Ikes face isn't going to work so you have to be smart and know when to get out of there.
Color me misinformed if you like, but from my experience I'm gonna call this matchup at
50:50 
If you know what you are doing in this matchup and you know how Ike works I don't see there being any reason for Ike to be at the advantage.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that Ikes dash attack can be very daunting, but if you learn its range you can easily avoid it and see it coming.
And another really important aspect of playaing against Ike is keeping him off the edge as much as possible and not letting him return to the stage.
I actually don't think this matchup is in Ikes favour and I don't think Ike is the better character.
I don't know where you got your information about those supposed 'Jab Combos' but I can assure you that almost anything Ike does IS escapable and if it is not escaped it is the error of the opponant.
The thing about fighting Ike is that he is going to want to play safetly and defensively, where he keeps you at a safe distance using retreating Fairs and just his range in general.
Ikes range seems to me to be his biggest strength, so the way to play this matchup as far as I see it is to get Ike to appraoch you by PLAYING VERY CAUTIOUSLY and defensively.
The trick to this entire matchup is avoiding Ikes attacks and then taking advantage of the slow startup of most of his moves by hitting him first.
This of course leads me to what I consider Ikes beat weapon... his Jab. Unlike his other moves the Jab is quick does damage and kocks u away again. Nobody better be coming in here and talking about multiple signle hit Jab cancels from Ike though because that is EASILY escapable offline and shouldn't cause any problem. Because his grab is also fast and he can Jab > Grab that is also a deadly tool for Ike. Thankfully its lack of range makes it a bit less usefull.
Before anyone accuses me of this, I am not saying it is not difficult to deal with... Im just saying he is not as bigger threat as he is being made out to be if you know the matchup.
Bassically, the way to win against Ike is to simply NOT BE AGRESSIVE! If you go in there and try to punish all Ikes moves and try to get in his face you will be destroyed by any competant Ike and the matchup will seem hard.
Just be smart with defensive play and ETS eggs from afar to try and get Ike to approach and avoid whatever he throws at you to get within close range of him.
I cannot stress this enough, concentrate on avoiding Ikes attacks because he hits hard, avoidance really is the Key in this MU and SHAD works very well for retreating away or getting through his wall.
Don't be tempted into going after Ike, force him to come to you.
When you do manage to breach Ikes wall that he builds from his range...
Thats when the damage can be done. Once you are past his range advantage and in his face, thats where you are at the advantage thanks to the better speed, you can get off a couple of attacks before he can do anything and he is especially vunerable in this situation when he is in the air, on the ground you still have to be very careful because he can shieldgrab you and he has that bloody Jab to rely on.
But the biggest thing here is being smart and knowing when to retreat again, continually trying to stay in Ikes face isn't going to work so you have to be smart and know when to get out of there.
Color me misinformed if you like, but from my experience I'm gonna call this matchup at
50:50 If you know what you are doing in this matchup and you know how Ike works I don't see there being any reason for Ike to be at the advantage.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that Ikes dash attack can be very daunting, but if you learn its range you can easily avoid it and see it coming.
And another really important aspect of playaing against Ike is keeping him off the edge as much as possible and not letting him return to the stage.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Kirk is the best Ike, most likely in the world. >_>
They they aren't. Jab1 -> Jab1 is a TRUE combo. We have the frame data to back it up. Jab -> Grab you have TWO frames to dodge in. And you have to jump + AD. If you don't jump, it's a true combo.
bigman40
Smash Master
What's funny. People that are saying the vid was bad or saying that the players weren't good, the video was shot in December. Really old guys. No bashing anyone.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I know, it's the best one I could find. Anything newer then that is Who VS Neverheardoftheguy and they both suck. >_>
bigman40
Smash Master
There's a vid of an Ike vs Green Ace. He's a good example of what it means when we camp.
Tony_
Smash Ace
Yoshi has better air control than Ike, but thats not saying much here. Ike has better ground control, reach, and overall killing power than Yoshi does. Yoshi can't gimp Ike when he is near the ledge either, due to Aether. Yoshi has eggs that can destroy Ike, and the eggs are what win him the match mostly. DJ fails against a well timed F-Smash from Ike, so its grab the ledge or die. N-air is also a good spacing move against Ike. Egg Roll gets you killed, as does whiffing a grab as Ike can punish you with an F-Smash or D-Smash. U-Smash from Yoshi is very hard to hit in this match-up, especially if the Ike predicts you.
The match-up I would say is in Ike's favor, due to him having really only thing to come over, and that is Yoshi's eggs. He has better power, reach, and an overall better ground game than Yoshi. Yoshi only has his eggs.
The match-up I would say is in Ike's favor, due to him having really only thing to come over, and that is Yoshi's eggs. He has better power, reach, and an overall better ground game than Yoshi. Yoshi only has his eggs.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MGzLPJ2--c
This guy?
Second match was at Jungle Japes, which would be like me showing Ike vs Yoshi at Pirate Ship, except in yoshi's favor instead of Ike's. >_>
This guy?
Second match was at Jungle Japes, which would be like me showing Ike vs Yoshi at Pirate Ship, except in yoshi's favor instead of Ike's. >_>
bigman40
Smash Master
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Well, I never heard of the Ike, but he appears to be fairly good....
I mean no offensive, if he is the best in the world then he wasn't performing very well in that match.
But as Bigman said, its a really old vid which completely explains it.
I actually didn't notice the date so sorry about that.
If Jab1>Jab1 is a true combo then I am assuming you mean just the 2 Jab1s?
If so I'll take your word that its inescapable as you seem to know what you are talking about.
Its not really worth much thought though because it only makes for an extra <5%.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Against Ike, that means a lot, particularly seeing how often we jab in a match. Think about it. We KO you really early. If every time we jab you we add on an extra 3%, it racks up quickly. You can also string Jab 1 continuously until the opponent SDIs out of it. The full jab combo is 16% damage. So everytime we jab, if we even only add one more jab to the beginning, it's 19% damage a pop (not counting staling). That happens 4 or 5 times, you're suddenly in KO range. That can happen easily within the first 45 seconds or so of a match, and all of that was assuming we didn't use any other move, never started off one of the jab combos with Nair (which is a true combo into jab at low %s), never hit you with fair, never canceled the jab into grab into bthrow into dash attack, etc.
Tony_
Smash Ace
Condensed version of my post:
Ike hates eggs and gimping him will kill you. Spacing and Egg spaming is the key here.
Ike hates eggs and gimping him will kill you. Spacing and Egg spaming is the key here.
Tony_
Smash Ace
Oh, and don't just rush in with B-air either. I've gotten countered for it before.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Can Sockz please explain the inconsistency between what he and Kimchi tested? Because if Kimchi is right then we actually do have a reliable way of gimping Ike...
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
It's a way everyone has of gimping Ike, it's nothing special. >_>
Unless you mean the egg toss, in which case you have a some what reliable way of gimping Ike (which every character in the game has). All it means is that we'll probably us QD to recover a bit more in the match. If you are tossing eggs, you aren't gimping QD.
And auro: You WILL get hit by Ike's jab a lot. It's impossible not to get hit by it a lot unless your name is MK, and maybe Wario. You simply can not avoid a 3 frame attack all game, and you can't win the match by only using Egg Toss. You have to get into range at some point, in which case you will get hit.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Well, I know this is location-dependent, but we could just air-dodge in front of Ike while he is using Quick Draw, right? Neither of Ike's recovery methods are 100% safe. >.>
Also, quite a few of Yoshi's attacks send Ike off horizontally (dash attack, d-smash, and d-tilt), which forces him to use Aether.
I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I want to make one thing clear: the Egg Toss -> grab is a reliable way of gimping Ike, but it's not going to work ALL the time (if that was the case, I'd put this in Yoshi's major advantage, but it isn't, which is why I believe it to be 50:50 or maybe even 55:45 Yoshi).
Also, quite a few of Yoshi's attacks send Ike off horizontally (dash attack, d-smash, and d-tilt), which forces him to use Aether.
I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I want to make one thing clear: the Egg Toss -> grab is a reliable way of gimping Ike, but it's not going to work ALL the time (if that was the case, I'd put this in Yoshi's major advantage, but it isn't, which is why I believe it to be 50:50 or maybe even 55:45 Yoshi).
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
If we used QD, we would be doing it when it was safe to do so. >_> I would stick with Aether if Yoshi was hanging around the edge, and not throwing eggs are me from a distance.
QD to avoid Eggs
AD to stop QD (ends most likely in death unless Ike was close enough to the stage to grab the edge)
Aether to punish AD attempt (ends in aetherspike and death most likely for Yoshi)
Eggs + Grab to punish non-perfect Aethers (resets the whole situation, with Ike having taken more damage, but possibly closer to the stage then last time)
Egg to attempt to rack on damage on perfectly spaced Aether (Unable to grab, Ike still receives a bit of damage)
And what about gimping Yoshi? I'm not positive how the Heavy Armor/Super Armor/Yoshi Armor works, but I know you can somehow break it at some %....and Ike has quite the slammer of a spike and fair. Is it % dependent? Knockback dependent? If we force you to the point you have to egg toss to recover, we should be able to just edgehog for the KO, or Bair you away for the final blow.
Kirk seemed to have no problems dodging those attempts in the video. And we can aether low enough that you can't grab us out of it, but we can still grab the ledge And now it's starting to turn into a round of rock paper scissors, except bigger.
QD to avoid Eggs
AD to stop QD (ends most likely in death unless Ike was close enough to the stage to grab the edge)
Aether to punish AD attempt (ends in aetherspike and death most likely for Yoshi)
Eggs + Grab to punish non-perfect Aethers (resets the whole situation, with Ike having taken more damage, but possibly closer to the stage then last time)
Egg to attempt to rack on damage on perfectly spaced Aether (Unable to grab, Ike still receives a bit of damage)
And what about gimping Yoshi? I'm not positive how the Heavy Armor/Super Armor/Yoshi Armor works, but I know you can somehow break it at some %....and Ike has quite the slammer of a spike and fair. Is it % dependent? Knockback dependent? If we force you to the point you have to egg toss to recover, we should be able to just edgehog for the KO, or Bair you away for the final blow.
Metatitan
Smash Master
The ike green ace faced wasn't anything terrible but nothing spectacular. Still the video is a perfect demonstration of our camping game.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Heavy armor is based upon knockback. Provided Ike hits him hard enough he can break the heavy armor at any percent.
At higher percents its easier to break it due to incremental knockback.
*poofs*
At higher percents its easier to break it due to incremental knockback.
*poofs*
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Yays!
Now, to find out at what % Fair, Uair, Bair, and Dair all knock Yoshi out of the heavy armor, as that's a kinda important part of this match here: when can Ike actually gimp Yoshi pre-egg toss?
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Poltergust
Smash Master
Well, we're working on that now.
The thing is, Yoshi can air-dodge at any time during his double-jump, so he'd always have the ability to dodge any of Ike's aerials (Ike's rather mediocre air-speed doesn't help him in this respect). In any case, the only time Yoshi would feel compelled to double-jump during recovery at all would be if he gets hit with an f-tilt, which has horizontal knockback (and maybe d-tilt, but that move's hit-box is weird and it should never hit Yoshi on the ground anyways). Still, it's nice to know the percentages so Yoshi can take the risk of being hit and retaliate. =P
One more thing to all Yoshis out there: If Ike is using Aether while you are off the edge and double-jumping, do NOT air-dodge. Just jump through and take the hit. Gaining 10% from an attack is better than getting Aether-spiked.
EDIT: I type so slowly. Three posts seperate the post I wanted to respond to.
The thing is, Yoshi can air-dodge at any time during his double-jump, so he'd always have the ability to dodge any of Ike's aerials (Ike's rather mediocre air-speed doesn't help him in this respect). In any case, the only time Yoshi would feel compelled to double-jump during recovery at all would be if he gets hit with an f-tilt, which has horizontal knockback (and maybe d-tilt, but that move's hit-box is weird and it should never hit Yoshi on the ground anyways). Still, it's nice to know the percentages so Yoshi can take the risk of being hit and retaliate. =P
One more thing to all Yoshis out there: If Ike is using Aether while you are off the edge and double-jumping, do NOT air-dodge. Just jump through and take the hit. Gaining 10% from an attack is better than getting Aether-spiked.
EDIT: I type so slowly. Three posts seperate the post I wanted to respond to.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
If you start ADing every time you DJ and we move towards you, Ike can just use Uair, which will outlast your AD and deal some nice % damage to you. And possibly KO you, it's one of the strongest Uairs in the game. 4rd strongest IIRC. Stupid Zelda, Bowser, and Ivy.....
And Ike's air-speed is the same as Toon Link's, it's not bad. IIRC, it was a little better then the guy in the dead middle of the chart. But compared to Yoshi yes, it's not nearly as good.
Dtilt is mainly a spike, only the handle has horizontal knockback. Bair and Fair also will send Yoshi horizontally. And counter, but that wouldn't be nearly as common. And QD, but nobody in their right mind will use that as an attack. XD
And Ike's air-speed is the same as Toon Link's, it's not bad. IIRC, it was a little better then the guy in the dead middle of the chart. But compared to Yoshi yes, it's not nearly as good.
Dtilt is mainly a spike, only the handle has horizontal knockback. Bair and Fair also will send Yoshi horizontally. And counter, but that wouldn't be nearly as common. And QD, but nobody in their right mind will use that as an attack. XD
Metatitan
Smash Master
Polt stop saying an airdodge will save us every time, it will not. Good opponents read airdodges and punish you hard, and ike especially.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Wouldn't predicting Yoshi's air-dodge fall to the players, though? That kind of discussion is not something that we talk about for match-ups. I'm saying that Yoshi has the "ability" to do so at any time he wishes. That's a fact, mindgames are not.
And I didn't say Ike's air-speed was bad, I said it was "mediocre." It's a little slower than Mario's, who has "average" air-speed. Pay more attention next time.
One more thing for all Yoshis: DO NOT ECE WITH IKE NEAR THE LEDGE LEST YOU EAT A D-TILT! D:
And I didn't say Ike's air-speed was bad, I said it was "mediocre." It's a little slower than Mario's, who has "average" air-speed. Pay more attention next time.
One more thing for all Yoshis: DO NOT ECE WITH IKE NEAR THE LEDGE LEST YOU EAT A D-TILT! D:
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
And I'm saying Ike as the "ability" to use Uair every time Yoshi DJs and have a really good chance of not being punished. If Yoshi AD's, he gets hit. If he doesn't AD...I believe that is Ike's aerial with the most KB, so he's still likely to be sent flying. It's only a low % Ike may want to avoid doing so.
And I was confirming your statement about Ike's air speed. Though, I though Mario was actually below average this time around. *shrugs*
And I was confirming your statement about Ike's air speed. Though, I though Mario was actually below average this time around. *shrugs*
D
Deleted member
Guest
Thats ********. BAITING IS AN OPTION OF THE CHARACTER. Yoshi can bait with ETS cuz its one of his moves and it forces certain responses.
Or else yoshis recovery would be ungimpable which it isnt.
Or else yoshis recovery would be ungimpable which it isnt.
Gindler
Smash Champion
Ha, yeah saying it's a player attribute really doesn't work. Since as you said burnt, ANY character can bait. Ike has the "ability" to bait and airdodge at any time he wishes
I am not implying that you can avoid Ikes Jab forever, merely that a good player should not be getting hit by it as much as you described. I addressed all of this in my matchup desricription a few pages back and I acknowledge that Jab is probably Ikes most useful attack.
You are deffinatly right about trying to camp all match, not a good idea as I explained in my post.
I don't think its fair to say that being in range of landing an attack on Ike will lead to you always taking a hit, aside from Jab he doesn't have much that works well at that range.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
SHNair works at that range. Counter also works.
If you jumped into that range, you are open during the short landing lag for Ike to land a jab. And quite frankly it's rare not to get hit by jab while you're in the range to be hit by it. Unless you're someone like Sonic who's just insane at dodging everything. Even then, he'll get hit often.
Will you get hit every time? No, obviously not. Will you get hit most of the time? Yes. For crying out loud, I often hit Espy when he's in that range and he's one of the best Sonics around. He's gotten to a point where he likes to hang around just outside of that range, and then spindash up and over me and nail me in a different way, but still. >_>
If you jumped into that range, you are open during the short landing lag for Ike to land a jab. And quite frankly it's rare not to get hit by jab while you're in the range to be hit by it. Unless you're someone like Sonic who's just insane at dodging everything. Even then, he'll get hit often.
Will you get hit every time? No, obviously not. Will you get hit most of the time? Yes. For crying out loud, I often hit Espy when he's in that range and he's one of the best Sonics around. He's gotten to a point where he likes to hang around just outside of that range, and then spindash up and over me and nail me in a different way, but still. >_>