Yoshi v. Captain Falcon

[Shiri]

This is the thread for discussion on the Yoshi v. Captain Falcon matchup.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I think this matchup is 55-45 Yoshi. Yoshi can combo falcon well but Falcon can edgeguard Yoshi pretty good, the spike is pretty scary =(

 

[Delta-cod]

I like this matchup. Last I played it, it was pretty fun. It's pretty even though, I'd say. I didn't feel like I had any distinct advantage over Falcon.

Just a note, don't try to attack while returning down from the air. I ate many uairs because of my stubbornness. >_<

 

[Yosheon]

Captain Falcon is a fun opponent. I think we can avoid his horizontal Falcon Kick just by crouching, and his Falcon Punch can be canceled out with the egg roll. Since he's a fast character, we have to be a little careful when using our laggy attacks.

We can chaingrab him, too.

 

[Deleted member]

Its around even, both combo eachother well, both edgeguard well, yoshi kills a little better but falcon juggles better, and falcon has the ability to get low kills (knee).

 

[Metatitan]

Yeah, we're probably even with him lol. Yay falcon! You finally have a neutral matchup that's not yourself or ganondorf :D

 

[.Marik]

Falcon is pretty fun to play against.

It's obvious he doesn't have much, but Falcon's have a scary edgeguarding game, and well... DThrow>Uair>Knee.

But Yoshi has better priority, Bair, other various moves, and such.

Maybe... 60:40 or 55:45 Yoshi's favour?

*Edit* And Falcon's juggle game is so sexy lol.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Week 2 for mu discussion, que comments now.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Well, I'm sure you guys already know that you can chaingrab Falcon across the stage by grab releasing him, just like you can Meta Knight. It's not all that useful unless you're playing on a stage like Smashville or Final Destination though.

The two things that Yoshi mains should watch out for in this match-up are:
1.) Falcon's ability to punish Yoshi's recovery. I've started picking up on an interesting way to punish Yoshi offstage- since I noticed that 9/10ths of the Yoshis will use their up+bs about 2-3 times before using their second jump to recover. Falcon can run off the stage, use his fastfall to get below the egg toss range and jump -> knee / uair Yoshi. Sounds pretty silly and situational, but if the Falcon really wants to manipulate his speed to punish a common mistake that Yoshis tend to abuse, he can. Even if the first egg toss gets onto the stage before he can run off, he can dash -> shield -> buffered dash -> fastfall -> rising knee / uair.

2.) Falcon has some really good platform punishing options. This applies to most characters, but considering Yoshi's recovery can often place him in a position to land on a platform without too much control (and using up+B can result in a free opportunity for him to punish Yoshi just as easily), it's a good idea to avoid staying above him. Do NOT down+b a platform, you can get kneed. Do NOT shield or roll on a platform, you can get kneed. Falcon doesn't even have to move from below the platform. All he has to do is short hop to the left or right of the platform, wherever Yoshi is- and throw out a knee. It applies to all characters, but Yoshi leaves a lot of openings due to his high cooldown time.


Other than those factors; I'd say the match-up can go both ways. Yoshi has some nice kill potential and should be able to KO Falcon while he's below 100%, fresh. Yoshi has range as well, so the main thing you guys need to look out for is Falcon's aerials (which I believe are better than your own by quite a bit) - and his up tilt. His grab game isn't too useful against Yoshi, surprisingly - but his jab is amazing and can often guarantee it.

Yoshi's never been too difficult for me, but some other Falcons have stated that Yoshi is a pain for them. I'd consider the match-up 50:50.

 

[Z'zgashi]

lol i must be one of those 1/10ths then, I actually recover high when i have the ability to, and i like to abuse my DJ armor at low damage. We also have that air speed to help us avoid falcon. Im not saying you cant edgeguard us, but if we use our options wisely and use mix ups, we can still make it back.

Number 2 ill agree with, but on platforms we can drop our shield laglessly by going down through it, so we do have that. And a random fact, if we down b on an angled platform, we slide off of it and can follow up with anything and have zero lag.

I see to pull out a lot of damage with yoshi's cg (at battlefield of other platform heavy stages i just dthrow or fthrow him when i cant go further) and it can put you in a bad position. Being above yoshi is also a very bad position to be in. Really, i dont have any problems at all fighting captain falcon, and from i believe we have a small advantage. It's definitely not a huge adv., but id say 55:45 to 60:40 at most.

 

[Poltergust]

Well, I'm sure you guys already know that you can chaingrab Falcon across the stage by grab releasing him, just like you can Meta Knight. It's not all that useful unless you're playing on a stage like Smashville or Final Destination though.

The thing with the chain-grab is that, like Bowser, the grab-release at the end of the stage puts you in a VERY bad position. Falcon goes far and low, and I believe he is forced to use a special move in order to recover. This can be very bad for him since both moves leave him very vulnerable.

The two things that Yoshi mains should watch out for in this match-up are:
1.) Falcon's ability to punish Yoshi's recovery. I've started picking up on an interesting way to punish Yoshi offstage- since I noticed that 9/10ths of the Yoshis will use their up+bs about 2-3 times before using their second jump to recover. Falcon can run off the stage, use his fastfall to get below the egg toss range and jump -> knee / uair Yoshi. Sounds pretty silly and situational, but if the Falcon really wants to manipulate his speed to punish a common mistake that Yoshis tend to abuse, he can. Even if the first egg toss gets onto the stage before he can run off, he can dash -> shield -> buffered dash -> fastfall -> rising knee / uair.

Hm... I don't know whether I should believe this would work or not. I haven't played against many Falcons, though.

In any case, what moves does Falcon have that would force Yoshi to recover low like that? D-air will obviously never hit, and besides that I can't think of any move he has that spikes or semi-spikes.

2.) Falcon has some really good platform punishing options. This applies to most characters, but considering Yoshi's recovery can often place him in a position to land on a platform without too much control (and using up+B can result in a free opportunity for him to punish Yoshi just as easily), it's a good idea to avoid staying above him. Do NOT down+b a platform, you can get kneed. Do NOT shield or roll on a platform, you can get kneed. Falcon doesn't even have to move from below the platform. All he has to do is short hop to the left or right of the platform, wherever Yoshi is- and throw out a knee. It applies to all characters, but Yoshi leaves a lot of openings due to his high cooldown time.

We wouldn't be Yoshi Bombing to the (flat) ground period (whoever does this should stop). The only two reasons for Yoshi Bombing in the air are for going to the ledge or if you are Yoshi Bombing on a slant (preferably to get you off-stage). Also, shielding on a platform is bad in any match-up Yoshi has, so I doubt we'll ever allow ourselves to be put in that situation.

Other than those factors; I'd say the match-up can go both ways. Yoshi has some nice kill potential and should be able to KO Falcon while he's below 100%, fresh. Yoshi has range as well, so the main thing you guys need to look out for is Falcon's aerials (which I believe are better than your own by quite a bit) - and his up tilt. His grab game isn't too useful against Yoshi, surprisingly - but his jab is amazing and can often guarantee it.

I don't think we can kill Falcon that early unless we get a nice read (although it really isn't too hard to read Falcon...).

Aerial-wise, Yoshi definitely beats Falcon in the air. Falcon's u-air is great and n-air is good for setting up stuff, but his other aerials have very limited uses. He also can't keep someone in the air for long because he falls fast and can usually only hit one aerial at a time, but Yoshi can easily string together his aerials. Yoshi's b-air and n-air should be able to outrange every aerial Falcon has except for u-air, and Yoshi's u-air is a better killing move than all of Falcon's killing aerials.

And yes, Falcon's jab is great. Not Ike great, but still great.

Yoshi's never been too difficult for me, but some other Falcons have stated that Yoshi is a pain for them. I'd consider the match-up 50:50.

Play better Yoshis.

No, seriously, there are a lot of things that Falcon can't deal with in this match-up. What can Falcon do when Yoshi approaches? If we space b-air, we shouldn't be getting shield-grabbed because Falcon's grab has like Mario range. And if Falcon approaches? His aerial approaches are countered by pivot-grab/up-smash, and his ground approaches are countered by pivot-grab.

Falcon also loses to Yoshi in close-range. Yoshi's attacks are just faster and less laggier than most of Falcon's attacks. He also loses to Yoshi in the air unless he's below Yoshi. I'm pretty sure that all of Falcon's smashes can also be shield-grabbed.

And don't get me started on edge-guarding Falcon.

To be fair, Egg Toss isn't too useful in this match-up because Falcon has great mobility, so it's hard to camp him. Falcon also can get a lot of damage in when he finds an opening. It's just hard to get past a lot of Yoshi's moveset. I find this to be a 60:40 match-up in Yoshi's favor.

Also, I don't know if it's just me, but I feel that Falcon is like a faster version of the Bowser match-up. I play those two really similarly...

 

[Deleted member]

Play better falcons? XD
Falcons baits are mad fresh, cuz he has that aerial double jump mixup thing going with his awesome fall speed, and he punishes commitments well. The key is to not commit to much, and to make sure you arent in his range, and then whenever he misspaces you can punish. Falcon can punished whiffed pivot grabs btw polt, and his back air hurts (it beats ours at some points). Uair is just godlike. Falcon has trouble getting back from the ledge, so punish him there, and hes also not too hard to combo. Passive agressive play works.
Falcons uptilt is god, and yoshi has a very hard time with it when used wisely.

55:45 yoshis favor. Also, falcon can only kind of edge guard yoshi, but not how darky sama suggested. He can just wait on stage, bait the air dodge and up air. Up B is a pretty sick move against yoshi, especially if the falcon is punishing spotdodges with utilts or downsmash.

 

[lordhelmet]

Yoshi yoshi.

One of Falcon's (few) harder low tier match-ups. I'm not 100% certain about the ratio because I haven't played a good Yoshi since like April.

Falcon's got a really good pressure game on Yoshi with jab and bair camping. If Yoshi didn't also have a frame 3 jab we would **** you in CC. Falcon shouldn't be getting grabbed (he will eventually but just sayin') and if he does he won't take too much damage. Mash as fast as possible to screw up the Yoshi's timing.

We can live reeeaaally long against Yoshi. If you didn't know Falcon lives as long as Ganon (EXCLUDING Falcon's superior momentum cancelling). Yoshi has some pretty fast smash attacks with decent KO power, I will usually get turbo jab happy at CC to prevent getting smashed. Realistically your best KO option against Falcon is uair.

Air game is fairly even. We can uair juggle Yoshi fairly well... we just need to keep our spacing to avoid any nair combo breakers. Yoshi's bair and dair are SDIiable to SDI those... getting lazy now.

45-55 Yoshi

 

[Delta-cod]

Everyone says" SDI Bair" but very few actually do it.

Anyways, if you're getting juggled by Falcon, just go off stage, since it's a lot harder for him to follow you out there, and return laterally. If you really want, you can try Yoshi Bombing down, because I think it trades with Uair.

 

[lordhelmet]

Adding to my previous post because my brain started working.

Well with bair and dair, at the highest level of play they will be SDI'd :D

In CC Falcon beats Yoshi simply because Yoshi has the ****tiest defensive options. If Falcon is using ANY move other than jab and maybe up-angled ftilt at CC then they're doing it wrong. I mean if Yoshi shields jab we can dash -> grab him easily. If he spotdodges we can just hold A and hit him out of it. If he rolls we can react and punish accordingly. If he jumps he's asking to get uaired. Yoshi's jab is just as fast but doesn't offer any real advantages in compared to Falcon landing a jab.

In the air I believe we go even as well. I'm not sure whose bair has better range (you'd be surprised by our bair's disjoint) but I'm gonna assume your bair wins by a bit. We get juggled a bit (but not as hard as we juggle you) with Yoshi's uair and egg toss. I don't think any Yoshi uses fair so facing each other so Falocn's nair will outrange Yoshi's nair. -jumbled thoughts-

The reason it's slightly in Yoshi's favor is because we get outzoned and have trouble approaching and have to keep very concentrated to not get grabbed. More to it than that but that's the very basic idea.

Again, 45-55 Yoshi.

 

[Poltergust]

Delta, I just said not to Yoshi Bomb into the ground. D:

Unless you are talking about Yoshi Bombing into a slope or into the ledge. Those are fine.

Also, I doubt that Falcon can reliably SDI b-air. He's just too big and heavy, and even light characters have trouble SDI'ing it.

EDIT: For close-quarters, why would we shield if we can just jab? I believe that both jabs would come out at the same time, so it would force a reset (which is better for us).

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi's u-air is a better killing move than all of Falcon's killing aerials.

Falcon does have sweetspot fair

And yes, Falcon's jab is great. Not Ike great, but still great.

Nor is it Yoshi good :D

 

[Poltergust]

Falcon does have sweetspot fair



Nor is it Yoshi good :D

The sweet-spot to the f-air should never (or at least, very very rarely) hit. It lasts one frame and has an extremely small hit-box.

And Falcon's jab is better than Yoshi's in respect that it can set up grabs. We... don't have anything like that. =/

 

[Delta-cod]

Delta, I just said not to Yoshi Bomb into the ground. D:

Unless you are talking about Yoshi Bombing into a slope or into the ledge. Those are fine.

Both, actually. You really doubt how beneficial it can be.

What's better, consistently getting Uair juggled, or trading hits and having a much more open ground? Or forcing him to dodge and getting TO the ground? Even if he DOES want to punish it, he has to wait for the stars to end, meaning punishment will NOT be very fierce.

You're also talking to someone who occasionally egg rolls to the ground.

 

[Shiri]

EDIT: For close-quarters, why would we shield if we can just jab? I believe that both jabs would come out at the same time, so it would force a reset (which is better for us).

1 frame v. 3 frames.

 

[lordhelmet]

The sweet-spot to the f-air should never (or at least, very very rarely) hit. It lasts one frame and has an extremely small hit-box.

And Falcon's jab is better than Yoshi's in respect that it can set up grabs. We... don't have anything like that. =/

Saying Falcon's jab is better than Yoshi's is a great underestimation. Falcon has one of the best jabs in the game.

Knee is unreliable yes, but it's a punishing move, not something to spam and get lucky with.

I don't think we can kill Falcon that early unless we get a nice read (although it really isn't too hard to read Falcon...).

Aerial-wise, Yoshi definitely beats Falcon in the air. Falcon's u-air is great and n-air is good for setting up stuff, but his other aerials have very limited uses. He also can't keep someone in the air for long because he falls fast and can usually only hit one aerial at a time, but Yoshi can easily string together his aerials. Yoshi's b-air and n-air should be able to outrange every aerial Falcon has except for u-air, and Yoshi's u-air is a better killing move than all of Falcon's killing aerials.

And yes, Falcon's jab is great. Not Ike great, but still great.

Missed this before.

Falcon outranges Yoshi lol. Falcon is also an amazing juggler... funny that you mention fastfalling because that's why he's so good at it. jump -> uair -> jump -> uair -> fastfall -> repeat.

Saying Falcon's aerials are "very limited" is really ignorant. Falcon's bair has very good disjoint, and all of his aerials are fairly quick (at least for low tier ). Falcon's only "bad" aerial is dair. Knee is also his strongest KO move and will KO Yoshi maybe even before 100% (position and stage-dependant obviously). And like I said before, Knee is a punishing move, not something (good) Falcons throw out randomly.

Play better Yoshis.

No, seriously, there are a lot of things that Falcon can't deal with in this match-up. What can Falcon do when Yoshi approaches? If we space b-air, we shouldn't be getting shield-grabbed because Falcon's grab has like Mario range.

Uair and utilt.

And if Falcon approaches? His aerial approaches are countered by pivot-grab/up-smash, and his ground approaches are countered by pivot-grab.

Falcon also loses to Yoshi in close-range. Yoshi's attacks are just faster and less laggier than most of Falcon's attacks. He also loses to Yoshi in the air unless he's below Yoshi. I'm pretty sure that all of Falcon's smashes can also be shield-grabbed.

Falcon has trouble approaching in this MU, that's the biggest reason it's not in our favor. dash -> shield just out of Yoshi's grab range works incredibly well. Bair approaches are also extremely useful simply because Yoshi can not handle any kind of pressure.

Did I reply to this already? xD

Falcon does NOT lose to Yoshi CC. Falcon has jab and that's all he needs. Yoshi also has a same-speed jab but does not grant near as much reward for hitting. Yoshi loses because he has THE ****TIEST defensive options in the game, I said this before.

Also, (good) Falcons are not going to use Falcon's laggy attacks. He literally survives off of jab and uair.

 

[Delta-cod]

Falcon does NOT lose to Yoshi CC. Falcon has jab and that's all he needs. Yoshi also has a same-speed jab but does not grant near as much reward for hitting. Yoshi loses because he has THE ****TIEST defensive options in the game, I said this before.

Also, (good) Falcons are not going to use Falcon's laggy attacks. He literally survives off of jab and uair.

ARGH!

Yoshi's jab is a gtfo move. It doesn't give much reward because the purpose of the second jab is to get you out of our face so we can continue camping you. First Jab mix ups are also good.

Yoshi does not have THE ****TIEST defensive options in the game. Pivot Grab *****, Usmash ***** as an Anti Air, and eggs are good projectiles. Jab has good priority and is quick, with some nice range. Yoshi doesn't need to shield at all.

 

[lordhelmet]

Defensive as in dodges/shielding...

 

[Airborne]

Defensive as in dodges/shielding...

Maneuverability.

 

[lordhelmet]

Yes but shield is the most important move in the game, and Yoshi's is trash.

What's better, a frame 1 shield that gives you frame advantage when you block almost any hit or relying on pivot grabbing every time hoping your opponent doesn't catch on?

Sure that's a bit exaggerated but that's the only reason Yoshi is low tier and that's what's going to be taken advantage of on a professional level.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yes but shield is the most important move in the game, and Yoshi's is trash.

What's better, a frame 1 shield that gives you frame advantage when you block almost any hit or relying on pivot grabbing every time hoping your opponent doesn't catch on?

Sure that's a bit exaggerated but that's the only reason Yoshi is low tier and that's what's going to be taken advantage of on a professional level.

The most important move in the game is Meta Knight.

Yoshi's shield is not terrible. It's longer lasting, and unstabbable (except in extremely odd and rare cases). There are a LOT of tricks that come with his shield. It's draw backs are there, but it is entirely usable.

Pivot Grabbing is relatively safe regardless, so I see no problem in using that as a defensive option. Or Usmash. Or jab. You know, those other good defensive moves.

It isn't just Yoshi's shield that's keeping him low on the tier list. He shouldn't be in low tier regardless.

Air: Nice Shiri post.

 

[Airborne]

Yes but shield is the most important move in the game, and Yoshi's is trash.

What's better, a frame 1 shield that gives you frame advantage when you block almost any hit or relying on pivot grabbing every time hoping your opponent doesn't catch on?

Sure that's a bit exaggerated but that's the only reason Yoshi is low tier and that's what's going to be taken advantage of on a professional level.

I'll tell you what's more important: Don't get hit.

 

[lordhelmet]

Well... no OoS options whatsoever and a what, 17 frame shield drop?

I'd say that shield's eligible for Fail Tier.

Anyway, enough about shields. I think Polt is the only one that said 40-60 but here:


55:45
No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools,
or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.

60:40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup.
However, the other character does have responses him,
and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent
or out spacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

If you think Falcon fits under 60-40 then lol, but it's your board.

 

[SmashDaz]

I personally find Yoshi to be better, but i'm not one to go into all the different stats.

CF's recovery is slightly better though.

 

[Deleted member]

Lordhelmet, your ratio is correct imo, but your reasoning for the most part is very unsound, and you know very little about yoshi so i suggest you not try to argue something you know little about (yoshis defensive options). Just because you have read something, doesn't mean you know all about it.

Yoshi shouldnt shield against the good captain too much, falcon is fast enough to react to all OOS options. Pivot grab is good but can be punished on whiff. if the falcon knows the timing of when to go in, and depending on the range yoshi does it at. However, falcon still has trouble approaching yoshi's superior priority and pivot grabs.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Just wonderin'. What is a position where Yoshi would pivot grab in this matchup where captain falcon would both not get grabbed and still punish us?

 

[Poltergust]

You're also talking to someone who occasionally egg rolls to the ground.

Oh dear. D:

1 frame v. 3 frames.

I'm not so sure it's 1 frame anymore, actually. I mean, we all know that Yoshi can't PS projectiles while we face them, but I think the same holds true for normal attacks. I've seen egg shards appear sometimes when I get hit just before I shield. Why is that?

Well... no OoS options whatsoever and a what, 17 frame shield drop?

I'd say that shield's eligible for Fail Tier.

Anyway, enough about shields. I think Polt is the only one that said 40-60 but here:


55:45
No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools,
or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.

60:40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup.
However, the other character does have responses him,
and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent
or out spacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

If you think Falcon fits under 60-40 then lol, but it's your board.

Yoshi's shield is bad, but not useless. It's only really terrible if no one hits it, but if someone does we can always get away safely by rolling in the opposite direction.

Also, the 60:40 description seems to fit this match-up to a T.

CF's recovery is slightly better though.

Uh... no. Yoshi's recovery trumps Falcon's. There isn't even a comparison.

 

[Z'zgashi]

And now, for some words from scatz:

Captain Falcon:

A pure match of who gets the momentum and who doesn't commit. Yoshi doesn't have any true reason to shield with the tools he has. Grounded wise, Falcon wins due to having a better damage output, but Yoshi isn't that far off with his Jab lock options and resets. People can SDI it, but then you'll just reset the match back to normal. Both characters don't want to use their other moves unless they see a good opening (except for Yoshi's Dtilt). Smashes should be used to counter good spacing (the pull backs on some of the smashes are useful to counter spacing).

Air-wise, Falcon wins if Yoshi tries to force his way close to Falcon. However, this is not how this matchup should work. Yoshi is just spacing if Falcon decides to commit approaching (which is where wavebounced egglay truly helps). There's nothing else to really explain in this portion other than that.

Falcon does have decent edgeguarding options on Yoshi provided that Yoshi pays attention to where he's positioned at. If Falcon is near the ledge and Yoshi upBs to recover, Falcon can go under and punish it (unless we go low enough to where the egg stays in your way), or if Yoshi uses his armor, Falcon can attempt to screw Yoshi over with upB, but yoshis would have to be not paying attention to get hit by it. On the filp-side Yoshi has the same amount of options (possibly more). Throw an egg short distance to apply zoning pressure and Yoshi turns this into a guessing game. Airdodge, Yoshi punishes with Dair or DJ Uair/Nair. Dodge it (either by jumping over or something), and Yoshi has a slight chance to push Falcon back out. Obviously Falcon won't be challenging the egg since it beats his options.

Overall, a slightly winning matchup to Yoshi mainly because he can zone better and add a little more pressure than Falcon, but as I said, it deeply depends on who zones better and gains momentum first.

 

[Yikarur]

Oh dear. D:



I'm not so sure it's 1 frame anymore, actually. I mean, we all know that Yoshi can't PS projectiles while we face them, but I think the same holds true for normal attacks. I've seen egg shards appear sometimes when I get hit just before I shield. Why is that?

you have to imagine, when you press "shield" there is a unvisible shield bubble arround you.
well I explain this on normal shields
do you know when do you get shield poked? you get shield poked when only your hurtbox gets hit, not the shield bubble. So if a hitbox hits the shield bubble but theoretically would hit the characters hurtbox too the attack is shielded, it only pokes if it hits the hurtbox only.

Thats how Yoshis shield work, you have to imagine a unvisible shield bubble arround Yoshi and because Yoshi curls itself as shield start-up Yoshis nose extend these shield bubble and can get a hit if only the nose, not the shield bubble gets hit.
Thats why we can't PS most projectiles if we're facing them because a projectile hitbox is very linear and hits the nose without touching the shield bubble.
thats why we can PS most normal attacks because their hitbox is big enough to be not able to hit the nose without touching the shield bubble. The most, not all.

and that's why we can PS everything if it hits us from behind. No nose! =D xD

 

[Darky-Sama]

45:55 sounds correct for a ratio. Honestly I'm leaning more toward 50:50, but I won't argue with a mere five points.

-----
Yoshi's recovery is better than Falcons? That's debatable. The invincibility frames on his second jump are pretty nice and the height is decent, but I wouldn't consider it - in any way - better than Falcons. Considering Falcon has far more uses for his recovery, as well as stage spike setups - not to mention the fact that his main vertical means of recovery is a special (so if he gets hit out of it, he's able to use it once again). Yoshi's recovery is still nice, no doubt, but it's got some flaws and far less uses than Falcons though.

Captain Falcon:

A pure match of who gets the momentum and who doesn't commit. Yoshi doesn't have any true reason to shield with the tools he has. Grounded wise, Falcon wins due to having a better damage output, but Yoshi isn't that far off with his Jab lock options and resets. People can SDI it, but then you'll just reset the match back to normal. Both characters don't want to use their other moves unless they see a good opening (except for Yoshi's Dtilt). Smashes should be used to counter good spacing (the pull backs on some of the smashes are useful to counter spacing).

Air-wise, Falcon wins if Yoshi tries to force his way close to Falcon. However, this is not how this matchup should work. Yoshi is just spacing if Falcon decides to commit approaching (which is where wavebounced egglay truly helps). There's nothing else to really explain in this portion other than that.

Falcon does have decent edgeguarding options on Yoshi provided that Yoshi pays attention to where he's positioned at. If Falcon is near the ledge and Yoshi upBs to recover, Falcon can go under and punish it (unless we go low enough to where the egg stays in your way), or if Yoshi uses his armor, Falcon can attempt to screw Yoshi over with upB, but yoshis would have to be not paying attention to get hit by it. On the filp-side Yoshi has the same amount of options (possibly more). Throw an egg short distance to apply zoning pressure and Yoshi turns this into a guessing game. Airdodge, Yoshi punishes with Dair or DJ Uair/Nair. Dodge it (either by jumping over or something), and Yoshi has a slight chance to push Falcon back out. Obviously Falcon won't be challenging the egg since it beats his options.

Overall, a slightly winning matchup to Yoshi mainly because he can zone better and add a little more pressure than Falcon, but as I said, it deeply depends on who zones better and gains momentum first.

This is actually a pretty accurate post.

 

[teluoborg]

Well for having fought Zudenka's Yoshi a good number of times I can assure you some things :
1-Yoshi doesn't really need his shield. His really good pivot grab, #1 aerial mobility and neutral B make up for his lack of shieldgrab.
2-Falcon doesn't flat out win in the air. At least not if Yoshi knows how to JC/reverse his neutral B and abuse his Heavy Armor. I'd rather say it's a tight battle of each getting into the other's weak zones.

6-4 seems accurate to me.

Edit@below :
Polter you are underestimating Falcon's recovery. But it's ok I guess only a few good Yoshis have faced good Falcons and vice versa.
So yes, if your character doesn't have a disjointed Dair (or something similar) you'll have hard time gimping Falcon.

 

[Poltergust]

Yoshi's recovery is better than Falcons? That's debatable. The invincibility frames on his second jump are pretty nice and the height is decent, but I wouldn't consider it - in any way - better than Falcons. Considering Falcon has far more uses for his recovery, as well as stage spike setups - not to mention the fact that his main vertical means of recovery is a special (so if he gets hit out of it, he's able to use it once again). Yoshi's recovery is still nice, no doubt, but it's got some flaws and far less uses than Falcons though.

...You guys really don't know the properties of Yoshi's recovery, do you?

OK, first off, it's not invincibility frames, but heavy-armor frames (like Snake's up-B). You can only knock Yoshi out of his double-jump if you hit him with a move with enough knockback. The amount of knockback needed to knock him out of it lowers the higher percent he is. Although, if Falcon manages to knock Yoshi back far enough to force him to use his double jump, I'm pretty sure he can u-air and beat it out.

However, we wouldn't be doing that. Instead, we would be recovering with Egg Toss to the stage. We double-jump to recover only if we need to (such as momentum-canceling). So, even if Falcon hits us out of our up-B we still have our double-jump (and other up-Bs) to make it back safely.

Distance-wise and unhindered, Yoshi can recover from anywhere, and Falcon cannot. Falcon falls really fast, so if he is knocked away at a low angle there are times when he can't even make it back to the ledge.

Finally, there is the reliability of their recoveries. Yoshi should never get gimped if he plays cautiously. We can either predict that you will throw out a move that our double-jump can take and immediately counter it (risky, but good in many situations), attack with an aerial (depends on the position of Yoshi and his opponent), air-dodge (safest option), or simply do nothing and aim for the ledge. Yoshi's recovery allows him to maneuver anywhere he wants, that's why it's better than a lot of other recoveries.

As for Falcon? His recovery is extremely linear and predictable. A lot of characters can gimp him easily (Yoshi included). He doesn't have nearly as many options that Yoshi does while recovering, mostly due to him having such a fast falling speed (side-B is good as a mix-up, but miss and you're screwed). In many cases, he is forced to use his up-B, which many characters can counter. And unlike Yoshi, if Falcon gets knocked back again he is usually not going to make it back.

 

[YOSHssb]

I fought Ally's Falcon, and just from those matches (and the ones I've played against Ozz), Falcon's recovery is fine. It is true that if he's sent at a terrible, low angle then he probably will not be able to make it back with a quick ledge-grab, but that's most likely due to poor DI and should be blamed on the player not the character. A good Falcon player who can DI well should never have a problem recovering against Yoshi. Yoshi's decent at punishing opponents off the stage, but he doesn't have anything that's just devastating.

Yoshi's recovery IS better than Falcon's though. There's no contest on that one; I'm just saying that after fighting a couple of very decent Falcon players, his recovery isn't bad by any means. (I mean just look at Link or Zelda =P)

 

[Deleted member]

Just wonderin'. What is a position where Yoshi would pivot grab in this matchup where captain falcon would both not get grabbed and still punish us?

Falcon's full hop is really useful in the matchup, because yoshi definately doesnt want to shield, and eggs can be punished. So yoshi can either fox trot away (smarter choice usually), spotdodge(easy to punish), or pivot grab (falcon can falling up air or mix up his double jump to punish).

 

[Delta-cod]

Just wonderin'. What is a position where Yoshi would pivot grab in this matchup where captain falcon would both not get grabbed and still punish us?

What Socks said, in addition to us whiffing while he's just a bit outside of the grab range.

Oh dear. D:

You'd be surprised at how good a move Egg Roll actually is.

4
Yoshi's recovery is better than Falcons? That's debatable. The invincibility frames on his second jump are pretty nice and the height is decent, but I wouldn't consider it - in any way - better than Falcons. Considering Falcon has far more uses for his recovery, as well as stage spike setups - not to mention the fact that his main vertical means of recovery is a special (so if he gets hit out of it, he's able to use it once again). Yoshi's recovery is still nice, no doubt, but it's got some flaws and far less uses than Falcons though.

This... I don't... How...