Yoshi v. Captain Falcon

[lordhelmet]

Lordhelmet, your ratio is correct imo, but your reasoning for the most part is very unsound, and you know very little about yoshi so i suggest you not try to argue something you know little about (yoshis defensive options). Just because you have read something, doesn't mean you know all about it.

Yoshi shouldnt shield against the good captain too much, falcon is fast enough to react to all OOS options. Pivot grab is good but can be punished on whiff. if the falcon knows the timing of when to go in, and depending on the range yoshi does it at. However, falcon still has trouble approaching yoshi's superior priority and pivot grabs.

ok.

I still don't understand how you guys don't think shielding/rolls aren't considered in "defensive game" and when those options are bad, you get ***** when normal characters could shield or roll away unpunished.

Regarding Falcon's recovery. DI and you won't get gimped. At top level of play DI will be very consistent. On top of that Falcon really doesn't get gimped much because he has 5th best air speed in the game and his up-b is a GRAB.

Regaring priority, I'm still laughing at whoever said Yoshi has better priority. For one, priority is a myth. Secondly you can't measure priority in an accurate means. Thirdly I'm almost positive Falcon has better disjoints than Yoshi.

Regarding Polt on the ratio. If you TRULY think it's 40-60 then that means Yoshi is as hard for Falcon as characters like Lucario/DK/Tink which makes me ROFLMAO.

Edit, @ Burnt below me. You are not UNDERSTANDING what I am saying. Yoshi does not have VIABLE defensive options regarding his shield and roll. At a competitive level, that lack of defensive OPTIONS is going to be TAKEN ADVANTAGE of.

 

[Deleted member]

yoshis game doesnt revolve around shielding, and he can roll , just only when he gets hit.
Thats just understanding the character dawg.

 

[Darky-Sama]

...You guys really don't know the properties of Yoshi's recovery, do you?

OK, first off, it's not invincibility frames, but heavy-armor frames (like Snake's up-B). You can only knock Yoshi out of his double-jump if you hit him with a move with enough knockback. The amount of knockback needed to knock him out of it lowers the higher percent he is. Although, if Falcon manages to knock Yoshi back far enough to force him to use his double jump, I'm pretty sure he can u-air and beat it out.

However, we wouldn't be doing that. Instead, we would be recovering with Egg Toss to the stage. We double-jump to recover only if we need to (such as momentum-canceling). So, even if Falcon hits us out of our up-B we still have our double-jump (and other up-Bs) to make it back safely.

Distance-wise and unhindered, Yoshi can recover from anywhere, and Falcon cannot. Falcon falls really fast, so if he is knocked away at a low angle there are times when he can't even make it back to the ledge.

Finally, there is the reliability of their recoveries. Yoshi should never get gimped if he plays cautiously. We can either predict that you will throw out a move that our double-jump can take and immediately counter it (risky, but good in many situations), attack with an aerial (depends on the position of Yoshi and his opponent), air-dodge (safest option), or simply do nothing and aim for the ledge. Yoshi's recovery allows him to maneuver anywhere he wants, that's why it's better than a lot of other recoveries.

As for Falcon? His recovery is extremely linear and predictable. A lot of characters can gimp him easily (Yoshi included). He doesn't have nearly as many options that Yoshi does while recovering, mostly due to him having such a fast falling speed (side-B is good as a mix-up, but miss and you're screwed). In many cases, he is forced to use his up-B, which many characters can counter. And unlike Yoshi, if Falcon gets knocked back again he is usually not going to make it back.

You got me there, I didn't mean to say Invincibility frames; Super Armor. I don't know what I was smoking while posting that. I had the properties in my head but I used the wrong term. lmfaooo.

But that only adds to my point. Debates on who's recovery is better is stupid anyway.

If a Falcon is allowing this predictable recovery to be punished, they're doing it wrong. Falcon has a variety of ways to use his recovery in a sense that doesn't really place him at at a large disadvantage. It has decent recovery height for if he's below the stage; nowhere near as good as Yoshi's, but he can still recover away from the stage so that his up+b grapples on opponents who are trying to punish him. UNLESS they're using an attack that's considerably disjointed, they shouldn't be punishing it more easily than any other character.

Yoshi's recovery is unique and offers him a variety of ways to return to the stage, but it comes at a cost regardless. People who know the match-up aren't going to give him an easy time.

 

[Delta-cod]

ok.

I still don't understand how you guys don't think shielding/rolls aren't considered in "defensive game" and when those options are bad, you get ***** when normal characters could shield or roll away unpunished.

Rolls are safe since...when, exactly?

Regarding Falcon's recovery. DI and you won't get gimped. At top level of play DI will be very consistent. On top of that Falcon really doesn't get gimped much because he has 5th best air speed in the game and his up-b is a GRAB.

Regarding Yoshi's recovery. DI and you won't get gimped. At top levels of play, DI will be very consistent. On top of that, Yoshi really doesn't get gimped much because he has the best air speed in the game and his double jump is MASSIVE.

Regaring priority, I'm still laughing at whoever said Yoshi has better priority. For one, priority is a myth. Secondly you can't measure priority in an accurate means. Thirdly I'm almost positive Falcon has better disjoints than Yoshi.

You must be...stupid...

Regarding Polt on the ratio. If you TRULY think it's 40-60 then that means Yoshi is as hard for Falcon as characters like Lucario/DK/Tink which makes me ROFLMAO.

Maybe those MUs are, I dunno, wrong?

Although I personally think it's 55:45 us anyways.

Edit, @ Burnt below me. You are not UNDERSTANDING what I am saying. Yoshi does not have VIABLE defensive options regarding his shield and roll. At a competitive level, that lack of defensive OPTIONS is going to be TAKEN ADVANTAGE of.

And Falcon has no viable approach options regarding his aerials. At a competitive level, that lack of offensive options is going to be TAKEN ADVANTAGE of.

Yoshi's defensive options are fine, just different.

Study up on what you're talking about before you post again. You're wrong in so many ways, it's causing me physical pain.

 

[lordhelmet]

Delta-cod is mad.

I don't know why you're having a blast with my post when I never said Yoshi has a worse recovery than Falcon.

Explain what's wrong with my priority post because I see nothing wrong with it. And uh, rolls aren't completely safe lol. It's another OPTION. When that OPTION is eliminated (essentially, meaning if you decide to go with it you will be punished 9/10 times) it makes it easier for the opponent to predict and punish.

Falcon has no viable approach? lolwut. You guys get mad when we don't know your character while you're no better when it comes to knowing Falcon.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Rolls are safe since...when, exactly?

Agreed, they're not. The only two rolls that I consider even close to 'safe' are Lucario and Wolf. Even then, it's pushing it. Rolls shouldn't be a part of anyone character's general defensive game.

Regarding Yoshi's recovery. DI and you won't get gimped. At top levels of play, DI will be very consistent. On top of that, Yoshi really doesn't get gimped much because he has the best air speed in the game and his double jump is MASSIVE.

Not disagreeing with either of you;
{see Poltergust and my posts above}

You must be...stupid...

Priority doesn't play much of a factor in this game anymore. It exists, but it's not nearly worth stating. It basically comes down to which attacks cancels what. Almost all of Falcon's attacks can stop Meta Knights nado, but clash with other attacks. Then other characters can't break through the nado, but can own Falcon's attacks that beat it. It's really all shifty.

Besides, if Falcon's focusing around grabs and aerials, it doesn't play that much of a factor. Moreso what hits first. Check the BBR discussions anywhere, the topic on priority has been almost completely disregarded.

Maybe those MUs are, I dunno, wrong?

Although I personally think it's 55:45 us anyways.

No, they're not wrong; they're about as accurate as they can be with the current metagame progression. Each of the boards came to that conclusion, not just our own. If you left the Falcons to choose what the match-ups were themselves, it would either be overrating Falcon or saying everything is 20:80. They're all idiots, imo. lol

And Falcon has no viable approach options regarding his aerials. At a competitive level, that lack of offensive options is going to be TAKEN ADVANTAGE of.

Incorrect.

Falcon's approaches;
Grounded:
Dash -> Shield -> Spaced attack / dash grab.

Aerial:
Dash -> RAR Bair / spaced Uair.

Just examples though, he has many *somewhat* safe options.

Yoshi's defensive options are fine, just different.

Agreed.

 

[Yikarur]

Rolling is underrated, you shouldn't spam it though, but it's often the safest option (for Yoshi)

 

[Darky-Sama]

I'm not sure I can agree with that. It's not bad if you absolutely need it; but short hop airdodge, simply holding up a shield or spotdodging is safest in all other cases. Rolling doesn't offer you that controlled safety.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Incorrect.

Falcon's approaches;
Grounded:
Dash -> Shield -> Spaced attack / dash grab.

Aerial:
Dash -> RAR Bair / spaced Uair.

Just examples though, he has many *somewhat* safe options.

So your approaches are all mixups that try to force out some type of response in the opponent? to which you then punish accordingly?

 

[lordhelmet]

Approaches are always mix-ups.

Snake can't walk up and ftilt every time assuming the opponent's not gonna figure it out.

 

[Darky-Sama]

As silly as you made that sound, yes. That's how this game is played at a top level, if I'm not mistaken. Unless you're Meta Knight. Then you can just do whatever the **** you want because you're a mutha ****in tank. joking, btw

Falcon does have a good pressure game though. Especially with spacing his bair when opponents are horizontal and uair when they're above him. He does have some legit combos with the weak Bair too.

Sourspot -> Grab / buffered dash attack.

Stage dependent too, he's a terrorist with his platform pressure. His fastfall speed and aerials allow him to auto-cancel and buffer follow-ups pretty decently on platforms. Of course that stops around 70%, but he should be trying to find an opening to punish by that point.

 

[Shiri]

I'm not so sure it's 1 frame anymore, actually. I mean, we all know that Yoshi can't PS projectiles while we face them, but I think the same holds true for normal attacks. I've seen egg shards appear sometimes when I get hit just before I shield. Why is that?

Well, to keep this extremely short...

Yoshi actually can powershield projectiles while facing forward (and I will be more than happy to explain this to you over PM since it's long, somewhat techy, and not fit at all for this thread). You are, however, correct on jab being three frames; I'm still back in mid-09, my bad.

And wow @ the rest of these posts, especially regarding priority. Goodness me, LOL.

 

[lordhelmet]

I'm still back in mid-09, my bad.

And wow @ the rest of these posts, especially regarding priority. Goodness me, LOL.

Is it me or is something wrong here?

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Approaches are always mix-ups.

Snake can't walk up and ftilt every time assuming the opponent's not gonna figure it out.

Obviously. He'd probably be throwing nades

 

[Deleted member]

...
Ok

Firstly: Rolling away is used all the time by top players, rolling foward isnt really good, but rolling away is safe with most characters unless it is predicted, but even then, many characters have pretty safe roll aways, and running foward to punish it can be risky if you are wrong.
2nd:
Falcon can approach, he doesnt have anything like marth which can beat out other spaced moves because he lacks priority, but he has enough mixup options where his approach can be pretty decent. He approaches yoshi better than most of the cast.
3rd:
Lordhelmet, stop talking about yoshis shield god ****it, it gets taken advantage of rarely, and usually against characters like metaknight and marth, who can force a shield with their hard pressure, and then follow it. Falcon cannot force a shield from yoshi, because yoshi can just outprioritize him or run away. He can abuse spotdodges decently, and like i said can punish pivot grabs, which are the only reason falcon doesnt die horribly in the matchup. So i do agree that falcon can take advantage of yoshis defensive options, but stop acting like most characters can, because they cant.

Regarding recovery: yoshis recovery is significantly better than falcons, but in the matchup, neither are all that great. Falcon's up air can be really nice for punishing airdodges, while yoshi can go really far offstage if falcon leaves himself open. If you knock falcon off when he doesnt have DJ he should be dead.

I feel like falcon does a lot better with platforms, gives him a lot more options for mixing up his double jump, and also for upair juggling.

 

[Darky-Sama]

...
Ok

Firstly: Rolling away is used all the time by top players, rolling foward isnt really good, but rolling away is safe with most characters unless it is predicted, but even then, many characters have pretty safe roll aways, and running foward to punish it can be risky if you are wrong.
2nd:
Falcon can approach, he doesnt have anything like marth which can beat out other spaced moves because he lacks priority, but he has enough mixup options where his approach can be pretty decent. He approaches yoshi better than most of the cast.
3rd:
Lordhelmet, stop talking about yoshis shield god ****it, it gets taken advantage of rarely, and usually against characters like metaknight and marth, who can force a shield with their hard pressure, and then follow it. Falcon cannot force a shield from yoshi, because yoshi can just outprioritize him or run away. He can abuse spotdodges decently, and like i said can punish pivot grabs, which are the only reason falcon doesnt die horribly in the matchup. So i do agree that falcon can take advantage of yoshis defensive options, but stop acting like most characters can, because they cant.

Regarding recovery: yoshis recovery is significantly better than falcons, but in the matchup, neither are all that great. Falcon's up air can be really nice for punishing airdodges, while yoshi can go really far offstage if falcon leaves himself open. If you knock falcon off when he doesnt have DJ he should be dead.

I feel like falcon does a lot better with platforms, gives him a lot more options for mixing up his double jump, and also for upair juggling.

^
This.

I don't necessarily agree that rolling is the smartest idea, but it's not bad.

 

[Poltergust]

Yoshi's roll is special, though. It is the worst/best roll in the game depending on whether someone hits his shield or not. If someone hits it, it can go really far and even roll off of edges. So if Yoshi shields and someone hits it, it's almost always safe to roll away.

Otherwise, Yoshi's roll sucks.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I rarely see Yoshis using their shield- nor do I use it nearly enough to pay attention when I'm using him. Are you saying that it's like Luigi's shield?

 

[NeoBatou]

Not sure if it's the same as Luigi's shield.
But due to the facts and what everyone's inputs, I'm giving this a 45-55 Yoshi's favor...just makes sense to give him the edge point wise, but it's not a big lead regardless. You still have to watch out for Captain Falcon's ability to punish Yoshi especially when recovering. Not a bad matchup for me though....I really want to play Poltergeist's Yoshi so badly, I know one of these Phase/HOBO events I might get the chance tho

 

[Yikarur]

I don't get why you're comparing Yoshis and Luigis Shield @.@

 

[lordhelmet]

i don't get why you're comparing yoshis and luigis shield @.@

^ ^

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I rarely see Yoshis using their shield- nor do I use it nearly enough to pay attention when I'm using him. Are you saying that it's like Luigi's shield?

All the comparison to Luigi is confusing me. Kay this is how you understand what polt just said

Step 1. Go into Training mode and Pick Yoshi and Falcon
Step 2. Get Yoshi in his shield
Step 3. Falcon Pawnch it
Step 4. Immediately after hit confirm roll away
Step 5. Lol

 

[Darky-Sama]

I was under the impression that he was saying Yoshi's shield would slide after being hit - following a roll. Luigi slides quite a distance as well after something hits him during a shield animation; so I was questioning rather or not that's what he was referring to- or something else.

A lot of characters slide from their shield being hit - the attack gives them rolling momentum. Luigi is probably most notable though. But uhhh... if that's not what you meant, correct me.

 

[lordhelmet]

ooo

I see what Darky's saying now. I had to re-read Polt's post. /dumbazz

 

[Delta-cod]

I was under the impression that he was saying Yoshi's shield would slide after being hit - following a roll. Luigi slides quite a distance as well after something hits him during a shield animation; so I was questioning rather or not that's what he was referring to- or something else.

A lot of characters slide from their shield being hit - the attack gives them rolling momentum. Luigi is probably most notable though. But uhhh... if that's not what you meant, correct me.

While Luigi's does slide, I don't believe he maintains the momentum if he rolls while sliding. And if he does, it's MUCH less severe.

Falcon/Warlock Punch Yoshi's shield, on say, Bridge of Eldin, all the way at one end, then roll with the hit after the confirmation. Then, do the same thing, but roll against it. Yoshi can roll in place and STILL end up going with the hit.

 

[Marisa~Kirisame]

Yoshi, indeed.

......That's a hard one. Although I would say Yoshi; he outzones us, we have a bit of trouble approaching if you don't know what you're doing, plus, you have to really try not to get grabbed. Also, if you're a brawl noob and think Yoshi's a useless character, you're gonna get owned. My friends say, "Yoshi will kick your butt until diarrhea comes out of your pingas...." O_o But they're some crazy arses, so don't listen to them. ._.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Interesting, I didn't think it was nearly as progressive as Luigis.

Overall with the match-up, I'm agreeing with what a few people said. 45:55 Yoshi seems like an accurate ratio here. Leveling out basic match-up mentality, neither character really has much of an advantage over the other. I think someone stated my view back in a previous post:

It depends on which character is playing smarter and keeps the other pressured.

It's hard for me to agree that Yoshi has better 'tools' to his advantage to level the match-up, considering Falcon has better punishing options and amazing control over his pressure game- but there's no denying Yoshi's overall factors. Ability to rack up damage, KO potential, he has a grab release to get bits of damage in and force Falcon offstage, his egg toss counts as a projectile, so he can force an approach. Both characters are almost equally limited with their pros and cons though. Difficult to say ones greater than the other.

I could go into detail on it, but I'd just be repeating what's already been said and argued. So I'll just say that I'm sticking with 45:55 Yoshi's favor.

 

[lordhelmet]

What Darky said.

Though we have a hard time landing a KO move on Yoshi because he's always all over the place, we still kill him a lot earlier than he does to us. Whenever I play a Yoshi I KO him at ~130% and he would KO me at ~170%.

 

[Poltergust]

That late? A u-air should KO Falcon much earlier than that. I mean, not even Snake should be living that long most of the time.

Also, I don't think Falcon has good ledge-options either (at least over 100%), so if we read you we can land Yoshi Bomb or f-smash.

 

[Yikarur]

Whenever I play a Yoshi I KO him at ~130% .

what kind of Yoshi are you playing lol not even Ally KO'd me that early.

 

[lordhelmet]

All true. Reading/mindgames aren't really supposed to be considered in MU ratios though...

Yoshi's KOs are just really linear so they're easy to avoid. On the ground you know you he's gonna try to usmash/fsmash you and in the air you know he will uair if you're above him lol. I actually get Yoshi Bomb KO'd a lot

Not saying Falcon doesn't have a hard time KOing, he does especially if utilt/bair are stale. But Falcon will get KOs earlier regardless.

I've lived up to over 200% against Yoshi multiple times and KO'd Yoshi's as early as 90% with a ledge read Knee. Just sayin' lol.

 

[Yikarur]

I've lived up to over 200% against Yoshi multiple times and KO'd Yoshi's as early as 90% with a ledge read Knee. Just sayin' lol.

I could say the same of my sight. lol (but just without knee and a bit more % but I lived up to at least 150-180% against Falcon)

 

[Darky-Sama]

Again, that's stage dependency. Final Destination, I usually don't get KO'd before 130%, minimum. I've lived past 170% against Yoshi numerous times there. Battlefield? Probably 130% maximum. Yoshi's Uair definitely guarantees a KO on Falcon below 170%; even in Final Destination - but landing it on a non-platformed stage against Falcon can be far more difficult than it seems (unless they're one of those stupid Falcons that keep jumping anywhere higher than a short hop distance while the opponent is grounded). I'm sure Yoshi could always short hop -> uair while landing to hit Falcon, so eh. Sorta goes both ways.

Falcon should be obtaining kills quicker in this match-up than Yoshi, but his ability to rack up damage isn't as effective. I guess that's another reason this match-up can go either way. If the Falcon is smart and knows how to read, he can rack up damage ridiculously fast with ground pressure / aerial juggling- but other than that? Predictable, easy to punish, medium cooldown time. Aside from spaced bair pressuring, most of Falcon's options aren't necessarily safe.

 

[Deleted member]

All true. Reading/mindgames aren't really supposed to be considered in MU ratios though...

Yoshi's KOs are just really linear so they're easy to avoid. On the ground you know you he's gonna try to usmash/fsmash you and in the air you know he will uair if you're above him lol. I actually get Yoshi Bomb KO'd a lot

Not saying Falcon doesn't have a hard time KOing, he does especially if utilt/bair are stale. But Falcon will get KOs earlier regardless.

I've lived up to over 200% against Yoshi multiple times and KO'd Yoshi's as early as 90% with a ledge read Knee. Just sayin' lol.

Thats because you have never played a competent yoshi. Yoshis kill moves are linear if you try to rush them, but yoshi has so many options with his aerial grab and airspeed that killing really isnt a problem. Falcons poor landing options give yoshi free usmash opportunities, plus we can dash attack you out of grab release, which sets up for edgeguards.


Falcon should NOT be killing before yoshi does. Utilt and dsmash are nice if the yoshi is spotdodge happy (which yoshi shouldnt be against falcon), knee should not land against yoshi because of our airspeed and options at any point in the air, fsmash is slower, and has less pullback than yoshis (plus yoshi has so many more options with his fsmash), up air kills but probably wont kill us till late since itll be mad stale. Yoshi can force falcon into positions where he will get hit, falcon cant really do that except with his up air. Falcon does punish reads harder (killwise), which is why a smart falcon can win if he gets those critical reads.


Lordhelmet, nobody cares about you living to 200% against bad yoshis. I live to 200% with zelda against snake, who cares lol. You clearly don't know much about yoshi at all.

Im curious to all the great yoshis you are killing at 90% XD

 

[YOSHssb]

Yeah, I'm curious what Yoshis you're playing as well. If I die before like 120% (I don't say 150% because I play against a Fox and that up-smash hurts) against anything (unless it's like Luigi's up-B), then I got gimped. Yoshi shouldn't die that early. And I'm curious what a Yoshi is doing against you where you could punish with a knee from the ledge. Whatever it is, they're doing something wrong. You've either only played bad Yoshis or you're just assuming things that aren't true.

Also, if you say that a Yoshi will only try to kill you with forward-smash/up-smash on the ground, then you know nothing of Yoshi's jab mix-ups. I kill with down-B and up-aerial WAY more than a smash.

 

[lordhelmet]

"Falcon doesn't live longer than Yoshi"

Lmfao. Falcon lives longer than Ganondorf.

"And I'm curious what a Yoshi is doing against you where you could punish with a knee from the ledge. Whatever it is, they're doing something "

Yoshi ledge jumps I predict and Knee. Yoshi is dead at 90% with DI. Yoshi uses GUA I predict and Knee. Yoshi dies and 90% with DI. Yoshi rolls in I predict and Knee. Yoshi dies at 100% with DI.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Poltergust]

Yoshi lives longer than Ganondorf. Heck, a lot of people live longer than Ganondorf. His recovery sucks.

I thought you said that we aren't supposed to theorycraft here. I mentioned in a previous post about how Yoshi can cover Falcon's ledge options. Don't provide a double-standard, please.

 

[lordhelmet]

Not including gimps* I should've known you guys would bring that up.

There's a fine-line between theory-crafting and explaining what can happen in a real match. I'm explaining what CAN happen in a real match because some doucher basically said "only bad Yoshi's get predicted".

Too lazy to read back on the older posts but I don't think I called you out on theory-crafting about ledge options. Prove me wrong and I'll shutup.

But **** you guys are worse than the Wario Boards. 45-55 Yoshi final ratio bye.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

"Falcon doesn't live longer than Yoshi"

Lmfao. Falcon lives longer than Ganondorf.

"And I'm curious what a Yoshi is doing against you where you could punish with a knee from the ledge. Whatever it is, they're doing something "

Yoshi ledge jumps I predict and Knee. Yoshi is dead at 90% with DI. Yoshi uses GUA I predict and Knee. Yoshi dies and 90% with DI. Yoshi rolls in I predict and Knee. Yoshi dies at 100% with DI.

Did I miss anything?

Okay Yoshi will NEVER be pressured by you enough to roll towards you.
Whats a GUA?
And yoshis Dtilt comes out on frame 8. Has nothing to do with what you said but im throwing that out there.

 

[YOSHssb]

Well, I don't know about other Yoshis because honestly I don't watch many others. But I do know that I and Poltergust for example don't ever use get-up-attack from the ledge or jump from the ledge. The safest option is ledge drop => double-jump air-dodge, and only if you have a clear opening should you attack and drop the heavy armor if you're punishing a shield (that's not like Marth, Samus, or Bowser) or it's a guaranteed hit.

It's not about reading your opponent on this one, it's about what most Yoshis SHOULD do off the ledge which is just using the safest options and playing the match-up the way it should be played which is how the match-up should be viewed.