Watching Pikachu fish so hard for kills now in Smash 4 feels like Yoshi.
It's almost sad for both of em.
It's almost sad for both of em.
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Yoshi Social-20 years of Yoshi's Island!
- Thread starter Nikes
- Start date
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Can't speak on Melee, but:
I've always felt Pika's moveset was bad because of the range on his moves. I always felt like his tricks just sorta...lost to good hitboxes. Especially QAC. I suppose I have yet to really play any top Pika ever, but everytime I watch videos I'm left wondering why Pika's attacks weren't challenged more frequently...
Karaoke Man
Smash Apprentice
I miss you guys ;~;
Nikes
Smash Lord
Dooooood o: What's up?
The moveset is great; the way he uses his tools are what's limited by the range. As time has gone on, Pikachu has been getting more and more range on his electric attacks and more priority on his tail attacks while his body and leg attacks have been getting weakened in knockback and recovery. Smash 4 is probably fine to challenge Pikachu more often than before (maybe not on the aerials; those aerials are still super SUPER good). Why people don't is probably the same reason some Melee players still don't DI Fox up throw up air after more than a decade of playing the game.
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Delta-cod
Smash Hero
I feel like the lack of range is severely hampering, and it forces Pika to rely more on tricks at neutral. Are his aerials really that ridiculous now?
Yoshi-hara
The Good Dinosaur
Something I wanted... I really wished that, after jumping out of shield, there would be a chance that Yoshi would get an egg shell stuck to the top of his head, and as he moved, it would sorta spin before falling off. I mean, heck, they even animated Pikachu's hat for his screen KO (the hat takes a while to follow Pika), this doesn't seem impossible.
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Scarlet Jile
Smash Lord
Well, that's the weirdest Smashboards post I've ever seen.
C3CC
Smash Lord
Something weird just happened to me playing on For Glory. I used to think that Egg Roll wouldn't let you go past the edge of the stage, as it stays rolling on the edge when you reach it. But today, I DID go off stage when using the move. What happened? Are there some exceptions I don't know about? Or did I do something to "deactivate" the automatic stop?
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
I remember being told that you'll go off an edge if you're still holding in that direction by the time you reach it. That coulda been it.
Christobelle
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2015
- Messages
- 15
- NNID
- Christobel
I hope this is the right place for this? Hello all. Just introducing myself. Loving Yoshi so much I've made him my main this time around. Been into smash since the 64 days, just with friends, never really took myself seriously enough for the tournament scene, but I feel my Yoshi is pretty darn good. If anybody's up for a friendly challenge send me a message. Always looking for good competition.
Yoshi-hara
The Good Dinosaur
You obviously don't know me then.
Also, I just saw that Yoshi has a measly 5 trophies.
Poor guy gets no love.
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Well, it's kind of a circular argument. When people don't challenge Pikachu, he closes the gap much faster and more safely. When he does this, he gets to abuse his aerials (autocancel forward air, KO down air, meaty back air for dodges/rolls, etc.) and that, in turn, makes them seem better and he can rely on the easy moves and less on tricks. Challenging Pikachu is what causes him to rely on the tricks to get the job done (unless the player just does tricks just because he can). Challenging him at high percents gets more risky, though, because of mashed neutral air being a great KO move.
Generally, Pikachu does lack in range, you're right. While he does rely on tricks sometimes, he can also play super safe and play very much like Sonic with his approaches using dashes, shields and Up+B (just without the ******** spin dashes). I find that when playing Pikachu, the more the opponent lets me rinse forward air, the more comfortable I feel. This reliance generally nullifies the range deficit because I can shoot Jolts until people shield and then I can forward air safely and begin my gameplan. The range issue comes into play when the opponent plays the neutral well and cancels out Jolts while staying on the ground. Immediately, Pikachu's weaknesses become apparent and you can either rely on breaking the player down netplay-style (can this moron handle my waterheaded roll tactics?) or you can get tricksy and hope your opponent doesn't know how to deal with it or you can play super safe like Sonic or you can brute force your way in with unsafe neutral airs and dash attacks.
Ideally, Pikachu wants people to jump (or at least I want them to jump) because many of his aerials are active for so long and shielding and grabbing don't take place in the air, meaning the only defense against aerials (air dodges) are beaten out most of the time by just doing back/forward/down air just a tad later than usual. Opponents can also mash out aerials to try to beat you out or trade; this generally does not work in Pikachu's favor unless you begin to space very meticulously with things like up air. People jumping means Pikachu gets to use his more powerful and much much less safe aerials, leaving forward air for when people are on the ground. When people stick to the ground, stop Jolts and control space well, I find I have to play super safe or extra dumb to make headway (because I don't know too many tricks aside from Up+B and hope they don't hit me for it).
All that was typed up because Pikachu wants to abuse the range of Jolts to make up for the lack of range with his general moves. Jolts either:
1] hit people, which lets you close the gap
2] make people block, which lets you close the gap
3] make people jump, which is Pikachu's ideal situation
or
4] get canceled out by enemy attacks
In three of the four scenarios above, once Jolt does its job, the lack of range doesn't matter because you're already in (or on your way in). The last scenario, again, was covered above for a bit. Not anything you can do about that aside from changing up the timing and amount of Jolts.
P.S. - Forgot to talk about trades in the air, which generally don't favor Pikachu. Might talk about that later.
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Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Ah, I think I see why I've always found Pika kinda mediocre, and it's because I never felt Jolt was particularly good since I've never had much trouble dealing with it adequately. Thanks for the write up, Pika's game plan makes a lot more sense to me now.
D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
I think to say that in any Smash (except 64) is strechting it. He was at least good in Brawl, but I seriously do wonder what ZeRo meant when he thinks Pikachu is Top 3...
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Nikes
Smash Lord
Didn't Pika have a good chain grab on MK and some others?
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
I remember all his stuff being pretty specific, and not really (always) leading to kills, meaning that he'd have to try to...earn a kill. Which is rather difficult since I don't think he really wins neutral against anyone good.
D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
ESAM says Pikachu is one of the few up there who happens to have trouble when it comes to approaching. The CG is definitely something, apparently he has a decent follow-up game (when he gets in, he...gets in?), great recovery and probably ESAM being the only one in forever living up to PikaPika's hype.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
I think the CG is great, but I don't think Pika wins, or doesn't lose to a large enough extent, in other key areas that would allow him to be good. My view of the character is that he's got really neat tools, but they're just not enough to compete with the top tier of Brawl.
To be fair, my standard for "good" in Brawl is pretty high, so not many characters are good in my book.
To be fair, my standard for "good" in Brawl is pretty high, so not many characters are good in my book.
CelestialMarauder~
Smash Ace
Pika was like a more viable yoshi. He had tools for everything and he went even with like all of the popular characters. He wasn't like...good in like the MK snake diddy IC way where they just had REALLY stong points that made life hell for characters who didn't have ways to deal with them.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
I don't think Pika had enough polarizing strengths to go even with the popular characters. I still find the supposed even MU with MK to be amazing. Smash usually relies on a character having some ridiculous trait in order for that character to be good.
It also helps they had ESAM and tagz to argue against. No way you're winning against them.
CelestialMarauder~
Smash Ace
The fact that he just had ways to get around and not get bodied by the things good characters could do was enough.
Tho to this day Even with MK is like the second dumbest matchup ratio i've seen people try to push
Scarlet Jile
Smash Lord
I got a little drunk tonight and played a bunch of Yoshi dittos vs. a dude called Woody who was good. Or maybe I was drunk. I'm not sure yet, but I saved some replays.
Scarlet Jile
Smash Lord
I would have to use my phone camera. I hate phone camera Smash vids, haha.
Scarlet Jile
Smash Lord
Also, I CANNOT beat a Yoshi as Ganondorf... I really don't know what the 'Dorf boards are saying about it being so even. Either my Ganondorf is terrible (maybe) or I've just run into some real killers.
Add me though, I'm game to try.
Add me though, I'm game to try.
D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
Even lolwat, hahaha lol!
D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do3v4RSf8T0
Question, are those really B-Reversals or just turn-aroun Bs. B-Reversals switch not only your direction, but also your whole momentum. Turn-around Bs are just...turnarounds. But this look different from either of them. For example, when he wants to do a B-Air fakeout he does B, but which one?
Question, are those really B-Reversals or just turn-aroun Bs. B-Reversals switch not only your direction, but also your whole momentum. Turn-around Bs are just...turnarounds. But this look different from either of them. For example, when he wants to do a B-Air fakeout he does B, but which one?
Put times, otherwise the one Raptor did at :21 is a b-reverse. Switched direction he was facing and instead of going right still during neutral B he went left.
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GSM_Dren
Smash Journeyman
Those are B-reversals. Jump backward into B-reverse is a great tool to bait out attacks while keeping safe by retreating in the opposite direction. Youtube Yoshidora, he does that and egg throw a lot in his matches.
Depster
Smash Champion
You can do even more and wavebounce, which is both at the same time.
Tobi_Whatever
あんたバカァ～！？
Just came here to say that I find you guys and your main really freakin adorable.
I *****' rek you in your dreams buddy!
I lift, I ain't no adorable **** ***** piss **** shots fired man!
Tobi_Whatever
あんたバカァ～！？
I'd really like to hug youI *****' rek you in your dreams buddy!
I lift, I ain't no adorable **** ***** piss **** shots fired man!
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Tobi_Whatever
あんたバカァ～！？
What do you mean by "who are you"?
I'm just some German guy, I'm pretty sure we don't know each other.
Why aren't you on any of our forums?! D:
www.smashlabs.de
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