Yoshi Social-20 years of Yoshi's Island!

[Jetstream]

Hit the Fair from above for the spike. I think I read it in one of the in game tips, not to mention my experience backs it up.

Yeah, that is one of the in-game tips, I didn't know about the tip sweetspot though, so I always hit with the sourspot by rushing all the way in.

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'm already getting some spikes against CPUs when I try to now, instead of just by sheer luck every 30th try I'll have to try it on my brother when he finds his DS

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Ganandorf boards are discussing the Yoshi MU right now. I think it's lacking the perspective of other experienced Yoshis.

 

[Sinister Slush]

They posted somewhere I believe.
Either way even if experienced, don't think there's been many Yoshi vs Ganon happening in tournament to really say anything.

 

[Z-Bone]

I think personal experience should count for something. Tournament matches don't have to be the be-all and end-all. Just my opinion. I'm not even seeing much Yoshi in tournament matches at all. Based on that figure should we assume that Yoshi is no good? Obviously not. People just don't want to put in the work. So called "pros".

 

[Sinister Slush]

Well, when it comes to discussing matchups. Usually if irl friendlies or tournaments is what holds weight. Not For glory/wifi (brawl)

 

[Z-Bone]

Not wi-fi in Brawl. Certainly not. Not sure what grudge you hold against For Glory. My only complaint is the lack of stage variety. No, we can't use laggy matches or players that aren't very good as serious data, but on the contrary it's usually smooth and often has pretty decent competitors. I sometimes get thrashed.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's not really a grudge.
If you went anywhere with for glory only data as your main experience, it would be dismissed in an instant for obvious and multiple reasons. Stages, stock count, lag. There's a few more I can't think of but those are the main three that stick out like a sore thumb.

Good X character or not, the 3 former influence a lot.

 

[Z-Bone]

I'll give you stages and lag, but stock count? I can do the same things against my opponent whether we're in a 1 stock match or a 100 stock match.

 

[Nikes]

Stock count's also dependent on where you're from anyway, just as an example in Aus everyone's using 2 stocks instead of 3 so it's similar to FG mode in that sense. I'm sure there's plenty of places in the USA that use 2 stock as opposed to 3 so there's no reason to disregard.

 

[Saikyoshi]

So, basically, "reel turnee" players will STILL find a way to make me feel inferior... ****ing pathetic.

Why do I play For Glory? Because I don't have anyone to play against. Unlike Mew2King and HungryBox and Mango and whoever the **** else, who can just pay people to be their punching bag whenever they want.

 

[Shiri]

Calm down, ladies.

Experience matters. All levels of experience. At the end of a civilized and thoughtful matchup discussion, the outliers on both ends of the skill spectrum get weeded out and (hopefully) only the important, practical parts of the matchup remain and that's what becomes the general analysis (revisited as time moves on and the game develops, of course).

If you actually have something to contribute to the discussion, then don't feel hindered just because you play For Glory. Just be sure that you're speaking in confident, sensible and concrete terms backed up empirically and not using conjecture, maybes, probablies and I-don't-knows. If you have an opinion, but don't have anything to contribute, save your opinion for a place like here or Skype or Facebook or whatever else you guys use and kindly do not contribute to the discussion (mostly because you do not have anything to contribute).

There is so much misinformation floating around this game and its characters and it's always been like that, partially because everyone feels like they should have an opinion and express it (which is fine), but also because everyone feels like their opinions always contribute to the discussion at hand (which is not always true).

Use your judgment.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'll give you stages and lag, but stock count? I can do the same things against my opponent whether we're in a 1 stock match or a 100 stock match.

If this was still brawl you'd be right. But it isn't, I wouldn't call it the "same thing" because rage influences matches quite a bit.
If you were to face a lucario Ike or ganon (oddly enough discussion for this right now) in a 1 or 2 stock match while they're past 100% it'd be a completely different match, or Marth since rage tippers kill in the 30+% range.
http://gfycat.com/FlamboyantShoddyBushsqueaker

Which is why I think hard hitting characters thrive on for glory outside of the forced flat stages of course. Even if both have good connection, there's still that few frames of input lag where you'll use a move too late or accidentally use a move 2-3 times when you only used it once.

As for Nikes, I think honestly everywhere in USA uses 2 stocks to get people ready for APEX dunno what other states uses 3 stocks. About the only reason I think people are using this ruleset.
There's absolutely no way people prefer 2 stock and think both Delta and I already made points on why they keep 2 stocks still.

Thankfully though Houston/SA is smart enough to stick with 3 stocks along with the fact nobody is going to APEX so no need to be accustomed to 2 stocks. Well, except like three people from houston but doubt they'll do too well.

And what shiri says is alright too I guess, if wifi is sadly your only means for matchup experience then go ahead and give your input. Some will accept it, some won't. For the brawl MU v3 chart there was a good number of people that tried to use solely online matches (videos) for their arguments. They put out good opinions but the tournament experience happened to be much louder and more spot on and agreed upon from both parties.
So if you have something to say for ganon vs yoshi that you experienced online, go for it it's more than what I can contribute cause no ganon mains I've run into irl or on fg. Smash 4 wifi will be wifi always but will thankfully never be as bad as brawl wifi, so maybe it'll have more going for it when used as peoples only way to contribute to the discussions later on in the games lifespan.

 

[Z-Bone]

How do we get matchup info from tourney players if tourney players never use certain characters? That's true for this game and especially true for Brawl and Melee, which had much worse balance. Even through friendlies, we can only see a character's true potential if someone is willing to put in the time and take a lot of losses in the process, which tourney players by nature are opposed to.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Tourney players never use other characters?
Dunno bout that, most top players that stream for glory barely use their mains. To make my statement even more true during the early 3ds game Zero played quite literally every character during his 28 or so hour stream. Or a more recent point. Yoko linked a match of him vs nairo where he used peach shulk. Most likely doing one of those "play whatever twitch chat tells me too"

Yeah it's using for glory, but mostly pointing out that people change characters once in awhile not so much in tournament cause a few hundred they wanna win is on the line. Either way despite FG, they change characters yes, saying they don't is flat out wrong unless you mean tournament matches only.
Can still play seriouslies with tournament players too ya know, maybe even ask em to use somebody specific if they can/want too.

If they don't use jigglypuff or mii swordfighter in tournament then tough luck I guess? That's the issue with most matchup discussions or previous MU charts. Less played characters having no reps or even players despite there being some people that play the character. Think despite ROB having one of the most people on their panel for MU chart v3 they did absolutely 0 discussion so the discussions didn't happen for a good portion of Matchups, think they were left how v2 was but with just going onto the side of whatever ROB vs X character was.

Ex: ROB vs Link -2 MU v2, no discussion happened for ROB vs Link MU v3 from ROB side so changed to -1.
Example didn't happen for link specifically but it happened for a few. Some other characters as well I can't remember, jiggly might've been one of em.

Spoiler: Ganon brought up just a bit ago

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ive play like 10 different characters in tournament in Sm4sh already lol

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I take it back we can't just do whatever we want to megaman. Lemons are just about impossible to approach tbh. If he shows early signs that he is playing megaman 2 on your ass and hitting you with pellets early and often, camp him. We can't do **** about that, but we can out camp him really hard and force him to approach. This matchup can EASILY go to time lol. We win like +1

 

[Sinister Slush]

My brother plays megaman. Not an immaculate one, but even I notice small annoyances, Lemons definitely being one of em. Even if we jab one, the other two will hit, if we try approaching recklessly with our main aerial Fair, the lemons just stop us in our tracks and gives him a free far or whatever he has on him currently (saw blade leaves crash bomber etc.)

 

[Locke 06]

I take it back we can't just do whatever we want to megaman. Lemons are just about impossible to approach tbh. If he shows early signs that he is playing megaman 2 on your *** and hitting you with pellets early and often, camp him. We can't do **** about that, but we can out camp him really hard and force him to approach. This matchup can EASILY go to time lol. We win like +1

Are you the person I just played tonight for an hour on For Glory? Because that sounds very accurate to what I just experienced against a Yoshi player. Eggs all day vs pellets all day and eggs should win out. Especially since Yoshi can convert on an egg hitting while Mega Man can't convert off of a pellet hitting. The defense game is real for both characters. Especially after someone is up a stock.

There's a sweet spot in terms of range that's inside your egg's arc that Mega Man can SH his pellets to cancel out the eggs while staying outside of your actual attack range. But Yoshi has the mobility to re-establish his more dominant long range game. Since you have mobility while throwing eggs, trying to trade fsmash with an egg is very difficult. Most Mega Man players are not used to getting camped out so hard, since they do the same, so if you've got a good egg game, you'll do well in this matchup.

+/- 1 sounds about right after a good hour of the matchup.

Edit: I'm in charge of the Mega Man matchup thread and we did Yoshi. At the time, most of us considered it even, but we didn't have much input from the other side (and I don't think many of us thought eggs would be that big of an issue... at least it was for me). Hope you don't mind, I'm going to quote you and put you in the write up.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Megaman and Villager both have great zoning options to counter Yoshi. Lemons for megaman are annoying to deal with cause the other two still get to us, saw is also damn good for him too. Slingshot/lloid rocket for villager is even more annoying sheesh. I do like playing against them though, it means I get a taste of my own medicine and have to deal with it lol.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Are you the person I just played tonight for an hour on For Glory? Because that sounds very accurate to what I just experienced against a Yoshi player. Eggs all day vs pellets all day and eggs should win out. Especially since Yoshi can convert on an egg hitting while Mega Man can't convert off of a pellet hitting. The defense game is real for both characters. Especially after someone is up a stock.

There's a sweet spot in terms of range that's inside your egg's arc that Mega Man can SH his pellets to cancel out the eggs while staying outside of your actual attack range. But Yoshi has the mobility to re-establish his more dominant long range game. Since you have mobility while throwing eggs, trying to trade fsmash with an egg is very difficult. Most Mega Man players are not used to getting camped out so hard, since they do the same, so if you've got a good egg game, you'll do well in this matchup.

+/- 1 sounds about right after a good hour of the matchup.

Edit: I'm in charge of the Mega Man matchup thread and we did Yoshi. At the time, most of us considered it even, but we didn't have much input from the other side (and I don't think many of us thought eggs would be that big of an issue... at least it was for me). Hope you don't mind, I'm going to quote you and put you in the write up.

Yeah that was me lol. I knew we'd out camp when it came down to it, but I didn't realize that we had to camp. I doubted how well lemons could keep us out. Just, you guys can't forget to cover yourself with lemons. I got some pretty free damage in whenever i noticed you landing with metal blades instead. But yeah sure you can quote me. GGS dude

 

[Locke 06]

Yeah, I thought about abandoning metal blades, but it's the only way Mega Man can regain stage control or transition to offense since lemons don't have any knockback. Metal blade > grab > follow. Especially when lemons start to stale, which happened often in that matchup, it just doesn't cut it in terms of damage output. But 1% lemons are better than taking damage from throwing out a metal blade.

I doubted how well eggs could keep Mega Man from getting to his mid-range lemons, but those eggs are nasty. Seems like we both underestimated each other's camp game.

Sure is fun to find someone as defensive minded as I am. GGS indeed.

 

[ividal]

i havent really had any trouble with megaman, our egg is way better then the lemons so we can use that to convert to some more damage, i feel that to fight megaman you have to be a lot in the air since he has way more control on the ground so if we take to the air we have better chances to damage or ko megaman

 

[Z'zgashi]

Megaman feels like an even match up to me. He has the zoning tools to make getting in on him difficult and has more than enough set ups and traps to get kills reliably. Just gotta take it slow and respect the lemons/blades/bombs.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

We don't really have to get in though. He can't keep us out and avoid getting hit by eggs at the same time. It's even if you don't wanna camp him sure.

Question though. Since Falco lost SHDL, Tink lost quickdraw and Samus lost her double missiles, does anyone straight up out camp us? Like we could obviously just get walled with reflectors/villager tree/whatever the thing rosalina does is. Also anyone fast enough will be having none of it, but I'm really getting the vibe that projectile against projectile camping we can win out.

 

[Z'zgashi]

We don't really have to get in though. He can't keep us out and avoid getting hit by eggs at the same time. It's even if you don't wanna camp him sure.

Yes he can lol, play a really good Megaman who can short hop lemons everywhere while also holding a blade (yes, he can do that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEYTgOTXn1I ) he can EASILY sit at that mid range poking with those, react and land in time to shield, etc, and also has a blade to throw at any moment as well. Good Megamans CANNOT be camped by us in the slightest, we ABSOLUTELY have to approach unless we have a lead, our eggs dont do anything to him pressure wise. Like, we can run away if we have the lead and force an approach, but its not our zoning forcing him to approach, its our lead.

Question though. Since Falco lost SHDL, Tink lost quickdraw and Samus lost her double missiles, does anyone straight up out camp us? Like we could obviously just get walled with reflectors/villager tree/whatever the thing rosalina does is. Also anyone fast enough will be having none of it, but I'm really getting the vibe that projectile against projectile camping we can win out.

Megaman and Villager are basically it. Technically Sheik, kind of Pikachu (but its not exactly the same thing), and Robin is somewhat annoying but not bad, but thats pretty much it.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

No...if he is shooting lemons while theres an egg on screen he doesn't have time to shield it. You don't even have to take my word on it. I want you to go into training mode right now, sh lemon and then hold shield. Unless he can clank out the egg he cannot shoot a lemon and still not get hit by it. Being a good megaman doesn't suddenly change your frame data. BF and Lylat would be the only stages that will work on because the platforms do half the work for him.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Egg Toss has an animation before it comes out, anyone can see it and react, and Megaman is going to stay like mid to max egg toss range, and it takes time to actually travel that far, literally unless youre practically decking them in the face right in front of you with an egg, people can react to them. Add in the fact that Megaman's short hop is SUPER low, his fast fall is really fast, his fair and lemons beat out eggs and are easy to hit eggs with (Ive played as Megaman against a Yoshi, hitting eggs out of the air with Megaman is easy peasy lol), so a simple double jump aerial will deal with them if need be, his fast fall is fast enough you can land right after no problem with another lemon. Also, his short hop lemons are like, what, 10-15 frames total? Thats more than enough time to finish and defend from a mid range egg toss and shield or whatever. Just try playing the match up from Megaman's side, even without the technical skill, just being aware of what works as Megaman against Yoshi you'll see what I mean, it is actually really easy to deal with eggs as Megaman.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Villager's kind of hit or miss imo. If you get a [stock] lead he's free, if he gets the lead he's a nightmare.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Egg Toss has an animation before it comes out, anyone can see it and react, and Megaman is going to stay like mid to max egg toss range, and it takes time to actually travel that far, literally unless youre practically decking them in the face right in front of you with an egg, people can react to them. Add in the fact that Megaman's short hop is SUPER low, his fast fall is really fast, his fair and lemons beat out eggs and are easy to hit eggs with (Ive played as Megaman against a Yoshi, hitting eggs out of the air with Megaman is easy peasy lol), so a simple double jump aerial will deal with them if need be, his fast fall is fast enough you can land right after no problem with another lemon. Also, his short hop lemons are like, what, 10-15 frames total? Thats more than enough time to finish and defend from a mid range egg toss and shield or whatever. Just try playing the match up from Megaman's side, even without the technical skill, just being aware of what works as Megaman against Yoshi you'll see what I mean, it is actually really easy to deal with eggs as Megaman.

Agree to disagree. But just gonna say if he shoots a lemon, it doesn't matter if he fast falls or not he still has to wait a set amount of frames before he can do anything that isn't another lemon.

 

[555mars]

Throwing in mixups as the Mega Man vs. Yoshi is extremely important, as eggs -> aerials are pretty free against predictable Mega Mans. But the Mega Mans who throw in aerials, rolls and shields are much harder to gimp, as opposed to the ones that shoot FIVE BILLION lemons and still die to egg pressure.

 

[Shiri]

Rolling and shielding can only take place on stage; not sure how that makes Mega Man harder to gimp (something that happens off stage).

 

[Jtails]

Hello Yoshi-boarders. So I've been working on a competitive guide series of videos for every character in the game, I just recently did one on Yoshi! I just wanted to share for any beginning Yoshi players as well as for the more experienced ones can maybe add onto the video, any little details I missed! Thanks

 

[Z-Bone]

@ Jtails ,
Great video, once again. I've watched some of your competitive guides for different characters and I really appreciate how you give back to the community in this way.

This Yoshi video was jam-packed with useful info, and I learned a thing or two. I didn't realize jab combos into grab, so I'm definitely going to try that out.

One tiny thing, you said the damage Yoshi deals to an opponent trapped in an egg is halved, but it's actually more than that. A normal F-smash does 14% and in the egg it did 9%. So your attacks do roughly 65% normal damage.

Also, where DID that egg go? 0.0

 

[Sinister Slush]

There's random times with egg toss where if it's too close to the ledge it'll disappear completely. Similar to how if you short hop, wait a half second maybe and egg toss, the egg will get destroyed by the platform before being able to really travel.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys! I wasn't able to find a dedicated match-up thread to post this message in, so excuse me if I'm posting in the incorrect area. Anyways, We are discussing the Yoshi match-up on the Marth Match-up Thread. It would be great if you guys could help us out.

 

[Funkermonster]

Might be a question for its own thread, but my Cousin plays Yoshi a lot and I don't think she's found a secondary yet. She seems to like these guys the most: , and to a lesser extent too. Would any of these make good secondaries?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Pikachu would be a fantastic secondary for Yoshi since Pika is arguably the best character in the game against Sheik, Yoshi's hardest matchup. Pika also beats ZSS (another of our top 5 hardest MUs) and does better against Diddy which can be annoying for Yoshi depending on your playstyle.

But really, Yoshi's a solid enough character that a secondary isnt necessary, only match up that is truly counter pick worthy is against Sheik, but aside from that its more dependant on playstyle and who you personally prefer to play into the match up.

 

[Delta-cod]

Can anyone explain to me why Pikachu is good? I have never seen the reasons why he's good in ANY Smash game, except for 64 (where it's obvious).

 

[Shiri]

Melee: Quick and had gimping potential on several easy-to-use moves (what Melee boils down to in the end). Great out-of-shield game and good advancing neutral airs with l-cancels. Very strong KO power with up smash. High risk balls-to-the-wall character that can take a stock at virtually any time.

Brawl: Game didn't exist.

Smash 4: Super strong neutral with auto cancel forward air, probably the character's best move. Out-of-shield game still good but not as safe. Less gimping ability, but more tricks with things like Quick Attack and Thunder. Basically a jack-of-all trades character with high mobility and normalized KO power, but very very safe and effective neutral game.

 

[ividal]

id pick mario since in this game, mario has many was to punish our MU, and is pretty well balanced, my rival mains mario and i find it pretty hard to beat, its my opinion though