Yoshi Matchup Thread

[[FBC] ESAM]

Okay, just checking

 

[Kiwikomix]

Summary is up. Let me know if there's anything that bothers you about it.
A big thank you to the Mario mains who participated in the discussion.
And, on that note, I'm going to bed.

 

[AzSvFeZ]

I don't see how King DDD is a counter for yoshi, with the speed yoshi has on him, there should be almost no worries...

 

[Scala]

I don't see how he's a counter either. I know a really good DeDeDe and I think the matchup is rather even

 

[Kress]

if we are gonna change the subject, shouldnt we change it to luigi?

 

[Deleted member]

Nah we didnt have too much weegi info. Hmmm wanna just go D3, since we are on the subject.

 

[Bwett]

Alright, I think I'll go ahead and go forth and offer my info on that freakin' penguin since I wanna say I have the most experience with him. If you wanna win, there is one major thing you have to do: egg spam. Because of his size and the area of effect of the egg, it is extremely difficult for DDD to get around it. ETS, ECE, and just normal egg tossing.

When you use this method, DDD is forced to rely on his chain grabs, but the timing against yoshi is difficult so don't just put the control down and give up if he catches a chain grab. Try to dodge out of each grab because if you don't, he will get you to the edge, and a good DDD will then down throw to dtilt, which can kill. To prevent his shield grabbing and grabbing in general, do retreating bairs, rising nairs, djc egg lays, along with your eggs. One thing to do, if he is close, is pop an egg so it falls right on his head. If he shields the egg and grabs, the egg will barely bounce off the shield and hit him out of his grab.

Now, let's say he does chaingrab you off the edge. This is the worst possible position you can be at. Do not in any situation fight a DDD off the edge unless you are absolutely positive you can not be punished for what you're about to do because all of his moves have priority over yours. So you are off and he is either going to be grabbing the ledge, flying out after you, or standing at the edge.

If he is standing at the edge, toss eggs to get back and try to sweet spot the edge without your second jump. Do not ECE in this situation. His ftilt can knock you away from the edge while ECE'ing. If you do fall in this situation, then you are forced to double jump, which he has a possibility of grabbing and from that situation, you are screwed. If you watch the last video I posted in the vid section, you will see it in action...it's ridiculous.

If he is at the ledge, odds are he is gonna fall to a bair followed by fair, or just fair. The safest thing you can do if you are either above or below him is just DJAD onto the stage and away from him. Always keep your distance.

If he is off the stage coming after you, you can either DJAD or possibly try an attack, but I would just be safe and don't try your luck. If he knocks you out of your second jump, its pretty difficult to get back.

DDD's weakest points are when he is above you or yall are grounded at mid-range. To get him in the air, do your bair, followed by ftilt -> utilt. If you pull this off, he is successfully in the air. Follow it up with uair and eggs, rising uairs and if you are above him after that, dairs. The only thing he has against you when he is above is dair so just watch out for that. If you happen to get an egg lay off, if the egg lands on the ground, stand right within the egg and duck. DDD's moves won't hit you out of egg when that happens. 90% of the time, they will do attack out of egg, so wait and punish with uairs. Don't dair the egg. He can pop out early and his invincibility is not pretty when you are that vulnerable.

Grabs and tilts are essential when he gets too close to you so pivot grab to hell and back and ftilt when you aren't pivot grabbing. You cannot chain grab DDD so don't try it, he can jump out of it. Furthermore, if you're playing a good DDD, once you hit 85-90%, watch out for utilt. It is DDD's best killing move and kills at that percentage for yoshi. The only ways you will be able to kill DDD at relatively low percent are fair, fsmash, usmash, uair, and down b so keep that in mind when you pick your moves to attack with. He tanks as much damage as you do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBHobNpHP3s
(Good match to show you the things he can do and what you can do to stop him)
Hope this helps (if I missed some aspect, just let me know)

 

[Deleted member]

Im a camper.

Fixed XD

Lol jk, thanks bwett.

 

[Scala]

That's really useful, I didn't know DDD could hit you during ECEs.

 

[Chaco]

*claps for bwett*

 

[Scarlet Jile]

One day when I'm feeling REALLY crazy I might steal all those little face-icons for the video thread.




Maybe...

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm, well at a tourny yesterday i got beat by ICs, so id like to say they're 4-6, because getting grabbed is death, and blizzard outranges egg lays, and side b is rediculous, and they can usmash from a grab, and if u do anything that is grabbable u lose, but maybe if i had camped a little more. -.-

 

[Defender]

OK, I can't restrain myself any longer. I have to post on the Wario match-up, so please forgive me for going out of order, but we seem to be done with the Mario match-up anyway. (Oh, and congratulations for the recent sticky-ing of the thread, Kiwikomix!)

-----Defender's Guide to Fighting Wario-----

Yoshi’s general strategy: Gain and keep the momentum. Abuse the infinite grab.
Wario’s general strategy: Gain and keep the momentum. Don’t get grabbed. Stay in the air.

Yoshi’s best moves and techniques in this match-up: Bair, jab combo, ftilt, usmash, egg toss, pivot grab, infinite grab, grab-release to usmash, grab-release to uair.
Wario’s best moves and techniques in this match-up: Dair, uair, bite, fsmash, half-waft, fully-charged waft.

Strategy:

This is a very even match except for one very important thing: Yoshi can infinite grab Wario. Because of this and the fact that Yoshi can get in a free usmash or uair on Wario after Wario breaks Yoshi‘s grab, Yoshi should seek to keep Wario in his mouth as much as possible. Yoshi’s pivot grab is a great way to help accomplish this, but don’t forget that his dash grab can be useful from time-to-time as well. As a brief note, the infinite grab is very good, but the timing is also very strict, so, especially if you feel that you do not have a good grasp on the timing, do not feel as if you have to make use of this technique to be effective against Wario. After all, the free usmash is a sure thing and still very effective.

Now that we’ve gotten past the one really big thing that Yoshi can abuse, let’s concentrate on how to fight while Wario is not in Yoshi’s mouth. First of all, this is a momentum battle as I mentioned in each character’s general strategy section. Both characters can combo really well, and so, when the fight starts to turn against you, it can be difficult to turn it back. If you have the momentum, try to keep pressing your advantage and try to prevent Wario from turning the tables on you. If, on the other hand, Wario has the advantage, remember that Wario has a short range and lacks a projectile and try to put some distance between yourself and Wario. This will momentarily prevent him from attacking you, and, hopefully, buy some time for you to chuck a few eggs and turn the tide of the battle.

Since we are on the subject of eggs, I might as well talk about them briefly. Your eggs can be useful in this fight in several ways. First, although camping with them is not that easy against Wario, they will force Wario to approach you instead of the other way around. Second, because of their unique trajectory, they are great for targeting him while he is in the air. Third, they help Yoshi to rack up some damage against Wario while he is off of the stage.

Speaking of Wario being off of the stage, Yoshi’s only real option for edgeguarding Wario is his eggs, because of Wario’s insane recovery. When Yoshi is off of the stage, however, beware of Wario coming after you, as his many recovery options allow him to pursue you to great lengths. If he does come out after you, consider trying to hit him with an egg or using your egg lay to buy a few seconds for you to make it to the stage. Alternatively, you can try to DJ through his attacks. Oh, and be careful of his bite as it can be used to gimp your recovery.

Wario’s bite is quite annoying, so I will go ahead and address it here. First, as you may already know, Wario’s bite cannot be defended against by shields; he will bite you through your shield. Second, although he will take damage if you hit him in the mouth with an attack, he will still bite you. Third, he cannot eat your eggs, so chuck one if Wario decides to hold his mouth open for a second. Fourth, his back is completely vulnerable, so do your best to hit him there if he gives you the opportunity. Fifth, remember that Yoshi’s egg lay and, in certain situations, his bair go through Wario’s bite.

Yoshi’s range is something that you should try to take advantage of, as it is much greater than Wario’s poor range. While you are on the ground, moves like your ftilt and your jab are great for keeping Wario at bay; while in the air, you should try to use your bair to keep Wario away from you. This is especially important to do when you know that Wario has not used his waft in a while, as Wario cannot hit you with his waft unless he is basically touching you. Speaking of the waft, beware of Wario trying to come down on your head with it, as this is often one of the best ways for him to try to pull it off. Just as a brief note, if you ever get hit with a fully charged waft, you will take 42% damage, though it does not have as much knock back as a half-waft.

On the ground, Yoshi is better than Wario, but a good Wario player will know that the ground is not where he excels and will probably try to stay in the air quite a bit. This will often lead to a grounded Yoshi fighting an airborne Wario. In this situation, there are several things to keep in mind. First, Wario is very maneuverable in the air. I have repeatedly been hit because I tried to attack Wario after he has jumped only once. He then double jumped, avoiding my attack, and hit me. So, before you try to attack an airborne Wario, remember that he can all too easily change his plans before his second jump, so try to make him use his second jump before attacking him or letting him approach you. Second, Wario has some pretty decent aerial approaches, namely, his dair, his fast fall uair, his fair, and, sometimes, his waft. You have several options if Wario is approaching you, one of the best of which is your pivot grab, so use your best judgment as to how to counter his approaches, but, once again, beware his aerial maneuverability.

Fighting Wario in the air, however, can be more difficult. In that situation, it is a good idea to remember that, generally, your bair will beat out his lateral options, but his dair and uair will beat our your vertical options. The fact that Yoshi’s vertical aerial game is not as strong as Wario’s makes it difficult for Yoshi to land after Wario knocks him into the air. In that situation, try to air dodge through Wario when he comes up to attack you, Yoshi bomb down onto the edge of the stage, or, if the stage is large enough, try to use your great aerial speed to get away from him horizontally.

Lastly, Wario has a much easier time KO’ing Yoshi than Yoshi has of KO’ing Wario, but Yoshi’s grab-release to uair or usmash really helps with that, though you first have to get Wario in your mouth, and you can be sure that Wario is going to do all in his power to prevent that. In order to keep from being KO’d by Wario, watch out for his uair and his fsmash, especially his fsmash, since it comes out fast and has super armor frames. Also, his half-waft can KO you at low percentages, so be very careful of that. In order to KO Wario, make use of the grab-release combos that I have already mentioned plus Yoshi’s usmash, and, if you can pull it off, his fsmash. Remember that stutter stepping can help you prey on Wario’s short range and nail him with a fsmash.

So, to recap, this is a pretty even match in most areas, but you should do well if you use your eggs, your long range, and your grab game to gain and keep the momentum.

Imput from Shiri:

Don't forget, you can turn the infinite into a chaingrab by spacing dash grabs instead of using pivots, just in case the infinite is banned wherever you are.

Also, Warios have a staple strategy in spotdodge-to-forward smash. When you see the spotdodge, stand about a half character length away (out of grab range) and either get ready to shieldgrab or prepare for a pivot grab. Or you can stand one character length away and charge a forward smash, but it's kinda slow on the release, so no guarantees.

Imput from lilb93: (On the timing of the infinite grab.)

The timing is very easy may be harder then CGing Mk but easier then lets say DK and D3.
All you have to do for CGing Wario is when he makes the "ZOMG he out of my mouth" face then grab.

Imput from Kiwikomix:

Wario stuff:
- As is heavily implied by Defender's post, this match is very momentum-based in the beginning. Each character can combo (or infinite, I guess) the bejeezus out of each other. Each character has one ground-based move that completely swings the match in their favor... Yoshi's grab and Wario's fsmash.
- Eggs don't usually end up hitting Wario that much due to his great aerial speed, but at least he has to approach you. They're also good for tacking on extra damage as he recovers, although it will usually be below you.
- If Wario wants to bite you to get rid of your DJ, either DJAD or DJC with an egg toss so that you can sweetspot the ledge.
- Wario has great ground options in the forms of his fsmash and bite, but both of those are close range. As such, you should space your attacks so that your more rangy attacks will hit him from far away. This takes practice, because it's not as easy to conceptualize Yoshi spacing as it is for Marth or other disjoints.
- Grabbing Wario is harder than it looks, as both characters want to run an air game rather than a ground approach. Do your best to pivot grab any of his approaches (he really can't deal with it if he's at the right height).
- I didn't know his dair beat out Yoshi's uair... could it be true?

 

[SOVAman]

OK, I can't restrain myself any longer. I have to post on the Wario match-up, so please forgive me for going out of order, but we seem to be done with the Mario match-up anyway. (Oh, and congratulations for the recent sticky-ing of the thread, Kiwikomix!)

-----Defender's Guide to Fighting Wario-----

Yoshi’s general strategy: Gain and keep the momentum. Abuse the infinite grab.
Wario’s general strategy: Gain and keep the momentum. Don’t get grabbed. Stay in the air.

Yoshi’s best moves and techniques in this match-up: Bair, jab combo, ftilt, usmash, egg toss, pivot grab, infinite grab, grab-release to usmash, grab-release to uair.
Wario’s best moves and techniques in this match-up: Dair, uair, bite, fsmash, half-waft, fully-charged waft.

Strategy:

This is a very even match except for one very important thing: Yoshi can infinite grab Wario. Because of this and the fact that Yoshi can get in a free usmash or uair on Wario after Wario breaks Yoshi‘s grab, Yoshi should seek to keep Wario in his mouth as much as possible. Yoshi’s pivot grab is a great way to help accomplish this, but don’t forget that his dash grab can be useful from time-to-time as well. As a brief note, the infinite grab is very good, but the timing is also very strict, so, especially if you feel that you do not have a good grasp on the timing, do not feel as if you have to make use of this technique to be effective against Wario. After all, the free usmash is a sure thing and still very effective.

Now that we’ve gotten past the one really big thing that Yoshi can abuse, let’s concentrate on how to fight while Wario is not in Yoshi’s mouth. First of all, this is a momentum battle as I mentioned in each character’s general strategy section. Both characters can combo really well, and so, when the fight starts to turn against you, it can be difficult to turn it back. If you have the momentum, try to keep pressing your advantage and try to prevent Wario from turning the tables on you. If, on the other hand, Wario has the advantage, remember that Wario has a short range and lacks a projectile and try to put some distance between yourself and Wario. This will momentarily prevent him from attacking you, and, hopefully, buy some time for you to chuck a few eggs and turn the tide of the battle.

Since we are on the subject of eggs, I might as well talk about them briefly. Your eggs can be useful in this fight in several ways. First, although camping with them is not that easy against Wario, they will force Wario to approach you instead of the other way around. Second, because of their unique trajectory, they are great for targeting him while he is in the air. Third, they help Yoshi to rack up some damage against Wario while he is off of the stage.

Speaking of Wario being off of the stage, Yoshi’s only real option for edgeguarding Wario is his eggs, because of Wario’s insane recovery. When Yoshi is off of the stage, however, beware of Wario coming after you, as his many recovery options allow him to pursue you to great lengths. If he does come out after you, consider trying to hit him with an egg or using your egg lay to buy a few seconds for you to make it to the stage. Alternatively, you can try to DJ through his attacks. Oh, and be careful of his bite as it can be used to gimp your recovery.

Wario’s bite is quite annoying, so I will go ahead and address it here. First, as you may already know, Wario’s bite cannot be defended against by shields; he will bite you through your shield. Second, although he will take damage if you hit him in the mouth with an attack, he will still bite you. Third, he cannot eat your eggs, so chuck one if Wario decides to hold his mouth open for a second. Fourth, his back is completely vulnerable, so do your best to hit him there if he gives you the opportunity. Fifth, remember that Yoshi’s egg lay and, in certain situations, his bair go through Wario’s bite.

Yoshi’s range is something that you should try to take advantage of, as it is much greater than Wario’s poor range. While you are on the ground, moves like your ftilt and your jab are great for keeping Wario at bay; while in the air, you should try to use your bair to keep Wario away from you. This is especially important to do when you know that Wario has not used his waft in a while, as Wario cannot hit you with his waft unless he is basically touching you. Speaking of the waft, beware of Wario trying to come down on your head with it, as this is often one of the best ways for him to try to pull it off. Just as a brief note, if you ever get hit with a fully charged waft, you will take 42% damage, though it does not have as much knock back as a half-waft.

On the ground, Yoshi is better than Wario, but a good Wario player will know that the ground is not where he excels and will probably try to stay in the air quite a bit. This will often lead to a grounded Yoshi fighting an airborne Wario. In this situation, there are several things to keep in mind. First, Wario is very maneuverable in the air. I have repeatedly been hit because I tried to attack Wario after he has jumped only once. He then double jumped, avoiding my attack, and hit me. So, before you try to attack an airborne Wario, remember that he can all too easily change his plans before his second jump, so try to make him use his second jump before attacking him or letting him approach you. Second, Wario has some pretty decent aerial approaches, namely, his dair, his fast fall uair, his fair, and, sometimes, his waft. You have several options if Wario is approaching you, one of the best of which is your pivot grab, so use your best judgment as to how to counter his approaches, but, once again, beware his aerial maneuverability.

Fighting Wario in the air, however, can be more difficult. In that situation, it is a good idea to remember that, generally, your bair will beat out his lateral options, but his dair and uair will beat our your vertical options. The fact that Yoshi’s vertical aerial game is not as strong as Wario’s makes it difficult for Yoshi to land after Wario knocks him into the air. In that situation, try to air dodge through Wario when he comes up to attack you, Yoshi bomb down onto the edge of the stage, or, if the stage is large enough, try to use your great aerial speed to get away from him horizontally.

Lastly, Wario has a much easier time KO’ing Yoshi than Yoshi has of KO’ing Wario, but Yoshi’s grab-release to uair or usmash really helps with that, though you first have to get Wario in your mouth, and you can be sure that Wario is going to do all in his power to prevent that. In order to keep from being KO’d by Wario, watch out for his uair and his fsmash, especially his fsmash, since it comes out fast and has super armor frames. Also, his half-waft can KO you at low percentages, so be very careful of that. In order to KO Wario, make use of the grab-release combos that I have already mentioned plus Yoshi’s usmash, and, if you can pull it off, his fsmash. Remember that stutter stepping can help you prey on Wario’s short range and nail him with a fsmash.

So, to recap, this is a pretty even match in most areas, but you should do well if you use your eggs, your long range, and your grab game to gain and keep the momentum.

My strategy is is plain and simple it is
-infinite him to 130% then up smash
-and thats it but its hard to grab some Wario's like G-Reg's for example from my experience.

 

[Wario Nut]

I am Wario Nut, and I approve this message.

How can I not? He gathered this data by fighting me. Well I hope this didn't help you guys fight Wario.

 

[Defender]

My strategy is is plain and simple it is
-infinite him to 130% then up smash
-and thats it but its hard to grab some Wario's like G-Reg's for example from my experience.

That will work, but the timing is very hard, so it's not something that I want to place all of my faith in. Also, like you said, some Wario's are very hard to grab, and you can be sure that they will do everything in their power to avoid getting grabbed. So, instead of writing a guide that focused only on one small (though important) portion of the fight, I attempted to write a guide that gives advice on all aspects of the Wario fight in order to allow you to fight Wario even when he is not in your mouth.

I am Wario Nut, and I approve this message.

How can I not? He gathered this data by fighting me. Well I hope this didn't help you guys fight Wario.

Yes, that is true, lol. We have had literally hundreds of matches against each other, and, although I forgot to mention it in the guide, I want to extend a special thanks to you for helping me to compile all of the data.

 

[Shiri]

Very nice.

Don't forget, you can turn the infinite into a chaingrab by spacing dash grabs instead of using pivots, just in case the infinite is banned wherever you are.

Also, just in case I missed it, Warios have a staple strategy in spotdodge-to-forward smash. When you see the spotdodge, stand about a half character length away (out of grab range) and either get ready to shieldgrab or prepare for a pivot grab. Or you can stand one character length away and charge a forward smash, but it's kinda slow on the release, so no guarantees.

 

[SOVAman]

That will work, but the timing is very hard, so it's not something that I want to place all of my faith in. Also, like you said, some Wario's are very hard to grab, and you can be sure that they will do everything in their power to avoid getting grabbed. So, instead of writing a guide that focused only on one small (though important) portion of the fight, I attempted to write a guide that gives advice on all aspects of the Wario fight in order to allow you to fight Wario even when he is not in your mouth.

The timing is very easy may be harder then CGing Mk but easier then lets say DK and D3.
All you have to do for CGing Wario is when he makes the "ZOMG he out of my mouth" face then grab.

 

[Scala]

Very nice.

Don't forget, you can turn the infinite into a chaingrab by spacing dash grabs instead of using pivots, just in case the infinite is banned wherever you are.

Also, just in case I missed it, Warios have a staple strategy in spotdodge-to-forward smash. When you see the spotdodge, stand about a half character length away (out of grab range) and either get ready to shieldgrab or prepare for a pivot grab. Or you can stand one character length away and charge a forward smash, but it's kinda slow on the release, so no guarantees.

I think you just said shieldgrab. I wish.

 

[Defender]

Very nice.

Don't forget, you can turn the infinite into a chaingrab by spacing dash grabs instead of using pivots, just in case the infinite is banned wherever you are.

Also, just in case I missed it, Warios have a staple strategy in spotdodge-to-forward smash. When you see the spotdodge, stand about a half character length away (out of grab range) and either get ready to shieldgrab or prepare for a pivot grab. Or you can stand one character length away and charge a forward smash, but it's kinda slow on the release, so no guarantees.

Thanks very much. I'll be sure to add something about those things to my guide.

The timing is very easy may be harder then CGing Mk but easier then lets say DK and D3.
All you have to do for CGing Wario is when he makes the "ZOMG he out of my mouth" face then grab.

Hmm... I was unaware of that until very recently, so thanks.

 

[SOVAman]

Hmm... I was unaware of that until very recently, so thanks.

You can just check the Official CG List for all the updates it is stickied and it has a cool picture on the first post to bad people don't like to look at stickied threads.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Dedede stuff:
- I didn't think you could really outspam him. Waddle Dees do come out faster than and outprioritize eggs, and if Dedede walks -> Waddle throw he can approach Yoshi pretty easily. Although I can definitely see it running him out of jumps and forcing him to upB, which no Dedede likes.
- The chain grab escape info sounds pretty useful, as does the idea of DJC egg lay. That move is definitely starting to seem like the "forgotten, but extremely useful" Yoshi move.
- While Dedede is definitely not lacking in aerials, your bair-WOPs are unbelievable because he has no good forward move to break your combo. The good thing about Dedede's air game is that each aerial moves in that direction and that direction only (except for his fair, which has approximately 10 years of windup lag). By this I mean that his bair only hits right behind him, his dair only hits right below him, and his uair only hits right above him. The last two are punishable enough that you can maneuver around him and hit him with an aerial of your own if he whiffs.

Wario stuff:
- As is heavily implied by Defender's post, this match is very momentum-based in the beginning. Each character can combo (or infinite, I guess) the bejeezus out of each other. Each character has one ground-based move that completely swings the match in their favor... Yoshi's grab and Wario's fsmash.
- Eggs don't usually end up hitting Wario that much due to his great aerial speed, but at least he has to approach you. They're also good for tacking on extra damage as he recovers, although it will usually be below you.
- If Wario wants to bite you to get rid of your DJ, either DJAD or DJC with an egg toss so that you can sweetspot the ledge.
- Wario has great ground options in the forms of his fsmash and bite, but both of those are close range. As such, you should space your attacks so that your more rangy attacks will hit him from far away. This takes practice, because it's not as easy to conceptualize Yoshi spacing as it is for Marth or other disjoints.
- Grabbing Wario is harder than it looks, as both characters want to run an air game rather than a ground approach. Do your best to pivot grab any of his approaches (he really can't deal with it if he's at the right height).
- I didn't know his dair beat out Yoshi's uair... could it be true?

Good analysis to Bwett and Defender. Definitely using some of this stuff in the summary.
I would like to see some more opinions on these characters from other poasters. Comments?

 

[Deleted member]

Actually eggs come out faster. Good try tho =P

*Gives kiwi moral support*

Also, falcon v yoshi is even imo. Just sayin. Ill argue it out later.

 

[Bwett]

Dedede stuff:
- I didn't think you could really outspam him. Waddle Dees do come out faster than and outprioritize eggs, and if Dedede walks -> Waddle throw he can approach Yoshi pretty easily.


Fairly positive that eggs come out faster but in any case, eggs have greater range and you can ETS. You can totally outspam DDD.


- While Dedede is definitely not lacking in aerials, your bair-WOPs are unbelievable because he has no good forward move to break your combo.

Ftilt breaks it pretty easily.

The good thing about Dedede's air game is that each aerial moves in that direction and that direction only (except for his fair, which has approximately 10 years of windup lag). By this I mean that his bair only hits right behind him, his dair only hits right below him, and his uair only hits right above him.

Fair, although it has lag, when spammed, is extremely hard to punish. Just think of Ike's Fair

In the quote. Good stuff though

 

[Kiwikomix]

I must be spamming my eggs wrong then. T_T
Also, for bair-WOPs I mean when Dedede is in the air. He doesn't have a forward-facing move that comes out quickly enough or has enough range. When he's grounded, no, it's not as easy.

 

[Mmac]

I really don't think Yoshi vs. Falcon is even. If it is, then Falcon should have way more advantaged/neutral matchups.

 

[Bwett]

I must be spamming my eggs wrong then. T_T
Also, for bair-WOPs I mean when Dedede is in the air. He doesn't have a forward-facing move that comes out quickly enough or has enough range. When he's grounded, no, it's not as easy.

ooooo gotcha, in that case, it is harder for him. I agree! lol

 

[TKD]

To give you an idea of accuracy, I still don't feel that Meta Knight is 100% chained by Yoshi's grab release. I found out about it sometime in early...April (back when everybody here was discovering how good grab release was)? I went the next night to my buddy's place at tried it on him when he had no idea of what I was wanting to do and jumped out every time.

Please start grab-hitting the instant your opponent gets in your mouth, and continue to grabhit consistently. If you don't do so, your opponent can land on most platforms and they can also escape easier.

I'd say if you know you did it wrong, try the next grab, but upsmash may fail. As for failing another grab, it may be because of this or even because of wrongfully delaying your dash.

 

[Wafles]

I was able to take out a good Dedede main with my Yoshi, and not with any other characters very well.

I'd put in that they're an even matchup, or maybe even 5.5:4.5 Yoshi Favor.

 

[Deleted member]

i know its not falcon time, but im doin falcon anyways >:/

Firstly, id like to say that the matchup goes so that usually whoever plays better wins. If that is how a matchup goes, then it is probably evenish, but i gotz my lil facts to back me up =P

Firstly, falcon is faster than yoshi. Not just his run speed, the moves falcon uses are much faster than yoshis. Second, he can actually edgeguard yoshi. His utilt goes through eggs and hit you and kills you. He can jump out and uair you, which is dodgable, but make sure to dodge it. Third, imo he has an easier time killing. Yoshi has more kill moves, but they are pretty easy to avoid. Falcons dsmash has a lil bit of start up, but it can fake out a spotdodge and kill, and also kill a landing opponent. His running usmash is pretty beast, and his fsmash is kinda meh, but its powerful. His uair, even when diminished, can set you up for edgeguards.
The problem is yoshi doesnt have too many moves that falcon cant punish. Retreating bairs are good, pivot grabs are good, jabs are good, but the problem is your only foward reaching attack that is very safe is your jab and sometimes dtilt. Falcon isnt the best at approaching, but egg spam doesnt really work at all against him, and falcon can capitalize on openings really well.

He also has an fthrow cg on yoshi, which is annoying.

So i think its 5.5-4.5 yoshis advantage, or even. =/
None of this falcon doesnt have many options in any matchups argument either, its not true =/

 

[Defender]

The timing is very easy may be harder then CGing Mk but easier then lets say DK and D3.
All you have to do for CGing Wario is when he makes the "ZOMG he out of my mouth" face then grab.

Thanks for helping me to understand the timing, lilb93. I'll add this to my guide.

Wario stuff:
- As is heavily implied by Defender's post, this match is very momentum-based in the beginning. Each character can combo (or infinite, I guess) the bejeezus out of each other. Each character has one ground-based move that completely swings the match in their favor... Yoshi's grab and Wario's fsmash.
Yes.
- Eggs don't usually end up hitting Wario that much due to his great aerial speed, but at least he has to approach you. They're also good for tacking on extra damage as he recovers, although it will usually be below you.
Yes again; however, the Wario I face will immediately use his bike to get as much height as he possibly can when he gets hit off of the stage, so he's usually well above me, not below me. Most other Wario's may not do this, but this certainly makes it hard to gimp him with your eggs.
- If Wario wants to bite you to get rid of your DJ, either DJAD or DJC with an egg toss so that you can sweetspot the ledge.
Excellent point.
- Wario has great ground options in the forms of his fsmash and bite, but both of those are close range. As such, you should space your attacks so that your more rangy attacks will hit him from far away. This takes practice, because it's not as easy to conceptualize Yoshi spacing as it is for Marth or other disjoints.
Definitely beware of the bite, though, as he will bite you if you touch him with your body, and it has a longer range than it seems like it should. (See those blue lines that appear in front of his mouth when he opens it? He will bite you if the second line, which happens to be the one that is farthest from his mouth, touches your body.) This can make it somewhat harder to attack him because it goes through most of your moves. The only move that I find consistently goes through his bite is your egg lay, though, I have to confess, I don't use my tilts near enough, so I can't really speak for them as well as I would like to.
- Grabbing Wario is harder than it looks, as both characters want to run an air game rather than a ground approach. Do your best to pivot grab any of his approaches (he really can't deal with it if he's at the right height).
I'm not sure that Yoshi should attempt to run an aerial game in this fight, due to the fact that his bair and nair are his only real options. As to pivot grabbing Wario's approaches, that is easier said than done. When I first started using the pivot grab against Wario Nut, I could catch him with it quite a bit, but he soon got wary. What he then started doing was saving his second jump when he went for an approach. If I made the slightest sign of going for a pivot grab, he would instantly double jump and retreat or fly over me and hit me while my tongue was still out. Also note that Wario's dair is a great approach, so remember that he may try to come at you from above. Wario Nut personally believes that from above is the best way to approach Yoshi.
- I didn't know his dair beat out Yoshi's uair... could it be true?
Unfortunately, this is all too true. Plus, I believe that it has a longer range than Yoshi's uair, which may be part of the reason that Yoshi's uair gets beat by Wario's dair.

Good analysis to Bwett and Defender. Definitely using some of this stuff in the summary.
I would like to see some more opinions on these characters from other poasters. Comments?

Thanks, I'll add your coments to the guide as well. That way my guide will be even better, and everything will be located in one easy to find place for when you go to write your summary.

 

[Mmac]

I think we should look into some of the matchups more next. I'm nominating these as "High Priority" discussions

Luigi - 4:6? (I think he's actually alot tougher than what we say he is)
Ness - 4.5:5.5? (I dunno, his Airs are pretty tricky, but he's actually pretty easy to snag out of them. Plus he's easily gimped)
MetaKnight - 4.5:5.5? (Cmon! It's Meta Freaken Knight! I am possitive this is a Neutral Matchup. Hell, I even see people saying that Yoshi actually has an advantage over him!)
Pit - ??? (I think we need to discuss him more period)

Anyways, I doubt Falcon is close to even against Yoshi. Yoshi just has too many greater counter options against him. I know Falcon has some options too, but... I just don't know. Plus on their board, they have characters listed much harder than Yoshi, and I'm more than certain they pose even less than a threat than Yoshi.

Anyways, I'll discuss Dedede, as he is not as discussed.

Starting off, Dedede is probably THE Defencive character. I have rarely seen a Offencive Dedede in my life (Excluding Edgeguarding). Anyways, To start of, he has some amazing tilts. However his Smashes are not as good, and his Jab is decent. All 3 Tilts have some good range, and don't really leave him open enough. Not to mention his trademark Chaingrabs make it even worse. Though if you go in with a full speed Bair, you can actually beat out his Shield grab, though he's still going to be hard to approach. Dair is probably you're best bet, but you can also try some Mario style short range eggs, to open up an approach.

Speaking of, while you'll probably never get a chance to Chaingrab him, Running grabs is still pretty effective, but risky. If you can manage to get him into his Mouth, you can attempt probably one of the hardest Chaingrabs in the game. It's quite possible online though. Yoshi's Projectile game beats out Dedede's due to the longer range, and can catch Dedede easily off guard. You can even stop Dees and Doos by just jabbing! But look out for the spikey things!

In the air, it's no better. He's the equivalent of a Terran Battlecruiser (Sans the Yamato Gun). His Bair, Uair, and Dair makes it very hard for Yoshi to get in from all sides. However, he is just a giant target for the eggs. A Short Hop Egg to a DJ Air is an excellent way to set up an attack against the slow moving fat penguin, though tricky to do.

Edgeguarding is both bad for eachother. Dedede's Fair, like mentioned before, is like Ike's. Plus his Bair is just hard to avoid. Also his throwables are also a pain. Best bet is to go for the edge. Don't try to go high, or else you have to face Uairs and Utilts. Edgeguarding Dedede, though is just as easily. Thankfully for his slow airspeed and fat belly, he's a pretty easy character to spike. Look out for the super armour on his UpB though, but you can easily intercept him on the way down. you can even beat him out with a Uair from underneath!

And that's pretty much all I got to say for now. I think it should stay at 4:6 though, he's just too tricky to approach.

 

[SOVAman]

I think pit has an advantage. I played a good pit in the last (in person) tournament I went to and I lost to Yo a very good pit main. The main reason I lost is probably because pit's arrows are so much easier to spam and they have longer range then Yoshi's eggs. Also pit has a disjointed hit box in all his aerial moves and Yoshi does not. Also pit has a very good recovery and it is easy to edge guard with pit. So I think it should be a 4:6 in favor of pit.

 

[Chaco]

I have like uber experience with playing Pit. I have a friend who lives in texas that mains him that tore up the Melee scene but only plays Brawl for fun. His Pit is better than any other I've seen. So lemme begin.

When starting the match with Pit always jump, but right after you do so, touch back down after the arrow passes fore his next arrow will be going right at you again. This one cancel out with a jab, after this do a bair approach for some damage. Do not miss or you will be eaten with a dsmash. With Pit, or atleast the one I play spacing is key. He will start to string you if you get to close and if you stay to far you'll get spammed to death. You want about a midway point in which you can do short egg throw for some damage and nair him if needed to dodge an arrow. It's easy to get Pit damaged but the thing with playing him is definitely KO'ing. The way I've found that is best with KO'ing him is either a grounded Yoshi Bomb (easier to dodge) or a sliding Usmash. So you want to go a little to far since the head has invincibility you'll want to catch his side and it should give you enough to launch him off the stage. Next step...EGG SPAM! Once he gets of the stage make him exhaust all of his jumps...he'll be forced to use the wings, this is when you either gimp with eggs or with a nair (if you get there fast enough) and if below a dair would also work. Gimping Pit is my main mean of keeping ahead in stock.

So after his first stock is gone, I'm normally sitting around 130%. You want to atleast get him to a decent 40-60% before falling off. This is easy to do since if you stay farther away this time he has to come to you for the KO. Make sure your dodging your arrows, and do a SH Egg Lay. Misses or not it's a mindgame. It's got him thinking that you can do that now. I now suggest ETS, to ECE. Only do two to three unless you are excellent at these. Cause you will be shot down with arrows after the initial hits. Get back up and DJC, into a Dsmash, getting a little slide helps you connect more if he tries to DI away. (coulda just said do a DR) But right about then is normally when you get him to that point, your now sitting around 180%. Your pretty much assured to go bye bye now. So try for some last ditch %'s on him, you will most likely get KO'd though.

i will continue this later...but for right now I'mma eat. =D Questions, comments?

 

[SOVAman]

Great job Chaco

 

[Mmac]

So are we done with Wario and Dedede now?

 

[Kiwikomix]

I'm assuming so, even though we didn't really get too much discussion done (besides Defender and Bwett, of course). I'll get started on summaries, then...

 

[Gindler]

As far as Pit goes. I find him to be a pretty easy match although not a sure win of course. If I'm not mistaken I think Bair can cancel out his arrows (i know it can cancel TLs arrows), but I usually like to plow through them with an egg roll as I've gone through of pits arrows doing that but sometimes only one, must matter the charge and where it hits the egg or something. Its also near impossible for pit to kill off the top so at high percentages i sometimes try and stay above him when I'm past 150 just so I can try and get an extra 20 something % on him. Yoshi's Dair also seems to pretty much **** Pit's recovery so once he goes wings you just killed him pretty much, just watch out for that glide attack of his, it's range power and knockback are all pretty big. Oh that angel ring a little thing I do is whenever he uses it, DI away and then Bair at him, this'll usually go right through for a free hit. Pit has like only 3 kill moves btw so at 130ish I tend to hang back and just chuck eggs, you can even take arrows if you want I just try and stay away from the Fair, Bair and Fsmash maybe sometimes throwing my own Bair in there sometime. I guess I fight like a wimp but hey it tends to work.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Here's something I have to clear up:
I'm writing the summary for Dedede right now, and Bwett explicitly says that Dedede can't be CG'ed. However, LilB's CG chart explicitly says that he can be. What's going on?

Edit: I also need some "closing thoughts" for the Dedede and Wario summaries. Someone needs to post a reason why the matchup is that particular score, or what gives you huge troubles, or something in a nice paragraph format. I don't want it to be me, since that's a bit cocky. See the Mario analysis for an example.

 

[Mmac]

Here's something I have to clear up:
I'm writing the summary for Dedede right now, and Bwett explicitly says that Dedede can't be CG'ed. However, LilB's CG chart explicitly says that he can be. What's going on?

Dedede can be CG'ed, but it's extremely difficult to do because you need a frame perfect dash and grab on release. So much so that it's actually practically impossible to do online

My conclusion on Dedede is that he's a friggen Turtle in a Penguin costume! He's slow, but he's hard to break into. If you're going to approach, you are going to have to do some very clever stuff to do so, or else you'll end up straight into a Chaingrab. You could also attempt to force him into the offencive, but I doubt you can, especially since Dedede's projectile is decent enough to prevent such a thing.