Yoshi Matchup Thread

[PKNintendo]

No problem.

Anyway, as far as Ness goes, I've always counterpicked with Peach, so I have approximately 0 experience in this matchup, except against my buddy's Ness, which is slightly erratic and exceptionally ********, so it doesn't count.

Did you counterpick due to Peach beating Ness easier?

 

[Mmac]

This is on my agenda what what could possibly be changed:

Donkey Kong I say 4:6
Luigi should be moved down to 4:6 (He's pretty hard)
MetaKnight should be moved to 4.5:5.5
Ness should be moved to 4.5:5.5
Peach I believe should be moved to 4.5:5.5 (I know what Peach can do, and it's pretty neutralish)

Also Wario moved the Matchup for Yoshi to 3:7, should we do the same?

I suggest that our next discussion to be any of the above.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Well, since Ness never really got off the ground, I think we should take another look at DK.

Edit: K, here's my DK essay:

We must have really underestimated this guy when we put him as even not too long ago. He has a whole lot going for him.

Ground game is solidly in DK's favor. Pretty much every move Yoshi has (with the possible exception of grabs, I haven't tested it out) will be beaten by DK's ftilt. The good news is that he has to approach you, and with his ground speed it's pretty difficult. Expect him to enjoy walking toward you and shielding/getting harassed by your eggs, which he can't deal with in any way but moving forward. Once he gets close to you, though, it starts slanting to a much trickier matchup.

Because of DK's ground range, it's pretty difficult to stay grounded for any period of time. This means you'll be running an air game, where, thankfully, DK is severely limited. With the exception of his bair, none of his aerials rival yours in both range and speed. Nair and uair come out quick but are very lacking in range, and fair and dair are both unbelievably slow. Because of this, once you hit him in the air, he won't have much of a chance of getting back down. Avoid approaching him from above on both the air and the ground. You're lucky that DK doesn't really have too many opportunities to be facing backwards in midair, otherwise the bair would destroy you. But, once again, DK is very comboable due to his weight and size.

That's just something to build off... any takers?

 

[Shiri]

Did you counterpick due to Peach beating Ness easier?

That's correct.

Also, Kiwi, the only thing I have to add to the DK discussion is that if he's pressuring you (lots of DKs like to apply mid range pressure now that he's...actually capable of it), do not be hasty to jump, as his back air can come out at literally any time. It puts Yoshi in a disadvantageous position 100% of the time and just makes the Yoshi player look silly. Try to spot the patterns in their feints and make a move; it doesn't have to be something grandiose like a huge jump or a roll, but make small movement to either get into their range or get past them and reset. DK's mid range pressure on its own is kinda harmless, but it's getting hit when you try to get past it that actually does the real damage.

That's all I've got. I hope it made sense. ._.

 

[Scala]

but if you start comboing DK it's like a recycled box of ****. Just sayin'.

Also I really think the MK matchup should be at least even. Pivot grab and eggs mess EVERYTHING up. And, you can abuse your DJ superarmor to go through almost any of his attacks and punish

 

[SOVAman]

but if you start comboing DK it's like a recycled box of ****. Just sayin'.

Thats true but DK still has a huge advantage over Yoshi. I posted vids of me playing a DK and he beat me because he out ranges me and he can KO easy (stage spike helps KO). It is easy to combo DK but his tilts can destroy Yoshi because they are strong and out range Yoshi's tilts.

 

[Mmac]

Yoshi can combo the crap out of DK, it's just getting in is the hard part

 

[SOVAman]

true

10chars

 

[Kiwikomix]

True dat on the comboing thing.
On paper, DK should never even let Yoshi hit him, what with the bair and the ftilt. But it will happen, and then you'll score quite a few hits... like I said earlier, DK can't defend himself too well in the air.

I'd also like to note that DK outkills you pretty hard.

 

[PKNintendo]

I can help with the Ness vs Yoshi matchup. In the Ness boards we're doing a weekly matchup, and Yoshi will be scheduled for tomorrow.

 

[Scala]

another thing to consider vs DK, is once you spike him, he's toast. It doesn't matter what percent he's at really since his vertical recovery is god-awful.

I dunno, I really want to play a GOOD DK again. I played one once and never had any problems. I'll give it a shot this weekend though, the tournament I'm going to is supposed to be HUGE, surely there's going to be some DKs

I can help with the Ness vs Yoshi matchup. In the Ness boards we're doing a weekly matchup, and Yoshi will be scheduled for tomorrow.

Thanks for letting us know, I'm sure a few of us will pop into the Ness forum and contribute

 

[SOVAman]

I'll give it a shot this weekend though, the tournament I'm going to is supposed to be HUGE, surely there's going to be some DKs

Maybe not
at the tourneys I go to to the most is like 2 ever.

 

[Mmac]

Due to boredom, I decided to rank how well Yoshi does in a tournaments by a Tier System. I used GoForkUrself's Tier List as it seems to be the most accurate, and modified it:

The formula goes by Average of the Tier List (5 x Y = Z(Where Y equals the number of characters), then T / Z (T is the total Matchups added up)


Top:
Meta Knight - 4.5:5.5
Snake - 4:6
Mr.Game and Watch - 3:7
DeDeDe - 4:6
Marth - 3.5:6.5
R.O.B. - 3.5:6.5
Falco - 3:7

Average: .72


High:

Wario -7:3
Pikachu -4.5:5.5
DK -4:6
Lucario -4:6
Olimar -6:4
Ice Climbers -6:4
Diddy -4.5:5.5

Average: 1.2

Middle:

Kirby -5:5
Pit -5:5
Zero suit Samus -5:5
Wolf -4:6
Peach -4.5:5.5
Toon Link -4:6
Bowser -6:4
Lucas -6:4
Fox -5:5
Zelda -3.5:6.5

Average: .92


Low:

Sonic -6:4
Pokemon Trainer -6:4
Luigi -4:6
Ness -5:5
Mario -4.5:5.5
Ike -5:5
Yoshi 5:5

Average: 1.01

Bottom:

Jigglypuff -7:3
Samus -6.5:3.5
Link -3.5:6.5
Sheik -5:5
Ganondorf -7:3
Captain Falcon -6.5:3.5

Average: 1.18

Total: 5.03/5 = 1.006

this means that Yoshi breaks completely even, which confirms his well balanced and versatilely. He doesn't get destroyed by any of the tiers, but doesn't destroy them himself either.

Also I don't think Link is THAT Tough as I first thought, but he's deferentially harder than Toon Link

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness is definetely equal to Yoshi.
They both have great air moves, and decent ground game.
A b-sticked PKF is hell, (Yoshi is heavy remember) and batting him after it is easy. Of course, both recoveries can be gimped, (yoshi wins out due to his projectile Egg throw)

Im definetely on the grounds of 5-5.

 

[SOVAman]

I played G-reg's ness and it was very close and at the end we both had over 100% but he won.(with a throw) Ness beats Yoshi for a few reasons.

Ness has a very good Bair and beats lots of Yoshi's aerials
Ness can KO easy with his Back Throw
Ness has a better ground game IMO.

 

[Kiwikomix]

>_>
Just when I get started on DK, Ness pops up again...
I guess it's possible to discuss both at once.

 

[LuigiKing]

I hate to lurk on your boards, but there is no way Luigi is a neutral matchup for Luigi. Yoshi's air game is simply not fast enough to deal with Luigi. Combined with Yoshi's floatiness and Luigi's great juggling... there is simply nothing Yoshi has up on the green man. Try playing against a good Luigi as Yoshi... its simply painful.

 

[Onxy]

I hate to lurk on your boards, but there is no way Luigi is a neutral matchup for Luigi. Yoshi's air game is simply not fast enough to deal with Luigi. Combined with Yoshi's floatiness and Luigi's great juggling... there is simply nothing Yoshi has up on the green man. Try playing against a good Luigi as Yoshi... its simply painful.

lolwut

....

 

[SOVAman]

You are wrong luigiking we have discussed the match up and Luigi is a dead even neutral match up. Luigi has no dis-jointed hit box to get past Yoshi's aerials. And what do you mean by Yoshi's aerials are not fast enough they are plenty fast enough. Get some more facts on the match up before you post something like that.

 

[Mmac]

I actually agree with Luigi King, but I've been suggesting 4:6 Luigi for a good while. Yoshi has some things, but Luigi just has more options.

However you don't know much about Yoshi. Yoshi's Airs are one of the fastest in the game. You probably only played ones that spam the crap out of Fair/Dair. Yoshi can easily escape Luigi's Juggles. Utilt Lock doesn't work, Yoshi can escape with both Double Jumping and Nair, and any Air Juggling can be escaped with a Double Jump.

I dunno, I think it's around the 4-4.5 Area. I do think he's harder than Mario though

Edit: Actually... Looking back, I could see why Luigi can be Neutral...

- Yoshi's Bair Equalizes Luigi's Bair, but beats his Nair and Fair
- Yoshi's Nair Equalizes his Nair and his Fair, if timed right
- Yoshi's Uair beats his Dair
- Luigi's Uair beats Yoshi's Dair
- Yoshi has a better Long Range Projectile, while Luigi has a better short ranged one
- Yoshi's Ground game beats Luigi's Air game (Usmash FTW)
- Luigi's Utilt makes it hard to come from the air, but Yoshi can still get in with a Low Bair to Tilt Combo.
- Luigi can't Combo Yoshi very well because of his Quick Nair + Double Jump Armour
- They seem to match on the Ground. Palm Stab is mean as hell though, but Yoshi beats everything else.
- They both can't Edgeguard eachother very well
- Luigi can kill better
- Luigi's DownB is a pain in the ***

But I still think Luigi is harder than Mario.

 

[Mmac]

Anyways, Enough about Luigi and Ness. I'll get started on Donkey Kong:


Donkey Kong is your stereotypical Big Character, except he's fast, and his range is unnatural. First of all, Donkey Kong is a ground based fighter, so he's going to stay on the ground for the majority of the match. He plays much better in a defencive style, but unlike MetaKnight, he is still a pain aggressive due to his redicious Ftilt which goes past your Pivot Grabs. However he's still going to be out of his element, so try to force him to be aggressive, it's much easier than dealing with him defencive wise.

It's very hard to get hits on Donkey Kong because his Defencive Ground game is much superior, and you don't have many ways to deal with it. He doesn't have a blind spot unlike Dedede, so you gotta pick your moment. However once you get in, then DK is going to be in trouble as his air game blows. His Bair is good, but thats it. DK is also probably one of the easiest to combo because when he gets hit, he "folds out", making himself bigger. However DK isn't going to spend much time in the Air, so you won't have much chances.

DK Still has some tricks that you going to have to look out for such as his classic Headbutt + Donkey Punch Combo, or his Cargo Spike. They're both pretty easy to see and avoid if you play smart. Also Yoshi's Eggs makes DK have a much harder time to charge his Punch. DK I find rather hard to edgeguard. His UpB seems really hard to get into, plus the initial frames have invincibility! I wouldn't recommend Physically Edgeguarding DK Either. DK also has a pretty tough time, but you still gotta watch his range on his ground moves, or his Bair.

Overall, Donkey Kong is very scary on the ground. He has all 3 of the elements, Range, Speed, and Power. However if you get hits in, and remain in control after you get him into the air, then he should fall apart rather quickly if you don't allow him to set up his guard. I say 4:6

 

[Kiwikomix]

I actually began doubting the neutrality of the Luigi matchup right after I posted it, but apparently no one else felt the same, so I let it go. Now that the arguments are rising again, it may need more attention.
And feel free to lurk, Luigiking, cause it's not like any outsider posts here anyway.

@ DK stuff:
- Headbutt shouldn't be too much of a problem to deal with since it has massive windup lag (almost as much as Yoshi's standing grab) and almost no range. Nevertheless, it's something to keep in mind.
- DK has to play both offensively and defensively in this matchup. He has to approach you, but he has to limit himself to the moves that outrange you. Once you get inside his hitboxes, he'll be in a world of hurt, but it's getting there that's the problem.
- Edgeguarding DK is pretty simple if you go for a dair. If it connects, you can chain it into a footstool, which DK can't recover from, and if he knocks you out of it with a uair (don't know if he actually can), it will still be difficult for him to come back from that height. Fair-spikes actually seem pretty easy to connect here too, since DK has to move horizontally into it and he doesn't have much range in front of him. Eggs also work.

 

[Mmac]

Some Character Matchup Listing news:

Wario has Yoshi listed 7:3 our advantage
ZSS moved Yoshi to 6:4 our advantage

Some Sheik news, I think shes about 4.5:5.5, and I discussed and agreed with the Sheik's. Her Chainlock can break Yoshi's Shield if you shield it.

So give yourself a mental note if your facing a Sheik. DONT SHIELD THE CHAIN!!!

 

[Shiri]

Explain, please? I've never heard of a chain lock or been able to do it to Yoshi with Sheik.

LOL @ saying a matchup is 6:4 us when it's one of the most blatant counters in the game. I don't mind, though, as long as people know Yoshi ***** it for free against Zero Suit, it's fine with me.

But back to this chain lock, are you sure this is a lock? Would you mind pointing me to a reference thread?

 

[Mmac]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178812&highlight=Chainlock

What it does is that it attacks so fast, that you are unable to shield out of it. Because of Yoshi Shield not decreasing when being damaged, Yoshi is unable to escape until the Shield Breaks....

or at least thats what they told me when they tested him.

It's not really a lock as you can escape normally, but more as a shield pressure

 

[Deleted member]

Uhh luigi isnt 4-6, its way even. Yoshi combos luigi SOOOO easily(easier than most big characters), eggs completely and utterly destroy luigi, his only approach option against yoshi is down b, which is very annoying, but pivot grabbable. Luigi's fireballs suck too. Luigi has superior killing, and if yoshi isnt below luigi, a much better air game. Luigis recovery is very easy to gimp as well.

 

[Kress]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178812&highlight=Chainlock

What it does is that it attacks so fast, that you are unable to shield out of it. Because of Yoshi Shield not decreasing when being damaged, Yoshi is unable to escape until the Shield Breaks....

or at least thats what they told me when they tested him.

It's not really a lock as you can escape normally, but more as a shield pressure

It's not even spotdodgeable? can you roll out of it? anyways, sheik's chain has a slow startup, so anyone would be able to roll backwards if she were about to use her chain, right?

Well, that's just me...

...About ZZS, it was time to get the advantage, I mean, ZZS has never given me problems :D

Cya's!

EDIT: Oh, and about luigi, I'd say he's 4.4 /5.6 luigi's advantage. He's not even, but he's not hard to fight at all, just neet to keep distance or you'll get SuperJumpFirePunched ^^!"

 

[Deleted member]

- Edgeguarding DK is pretty simple if you go for a dair. If it connects, you can chain it into a footstool, which DK can't recover from, and if he knocks you out of it with a uair (don't know if he actually can), it will still be difficult for him to come back from that height. Fair-spikes actually seem pretty easy to connect here too, since DK has to move horizontally into it and he doesn't have much range in front of him. Eggs also work.

If you really want to take 30 damage, and have a 2% chance to actually hit him, go edgeguard DK. As for me, ill just sit back and grab his landing, or throw eggs if hes gonna sweetspot. =P

 

[Mmac]

I agree with Burnt. Physically Edgeguarding DK is just not worth it.

Also Burnt agrees with me that MetaKnight is 4.5:5.5

I think we should organize it so that it goes from Largest Advantage, to Largest Disadvantage.

So are we done with DK now?

 

[SOVAman]

Uhh luigi isnt 4-6, its way even. Yoshi combos luigi SOOOO easily(easier than most big characters), eggs completely and utterly destroy luigi, his only approach option against yoshi is down b, which is very annoying, but pivot grabbable. Luigi's fireballs suck too. Luigi has superior killing, and if yoshi isnt below luigi, a much better air game. Luigis recovery is very easy to gimp as well.

Agree 100%

10yoshis

 

[SOVAman]

I agree with Burnt. Physically Edgeguarding DK is just not worth it.

Also Burnt agrees with me that MetaKnight is 4.5:5.5

I think we should organize it so that it goes from Largest Advantage, to Largest Disadvantage.

So are we done with DK now?

Do we agree that DK has an advantage?


I agree with the MK being 4.4:5.5 but it might be ?????4:5??????

Spoiler

Double post oh noesss

 

[Deleted member]

It would make me really happy if u made jiggs 6-4, and falcon 5-5.


I probably have more TOURNAMENT falcon experience than all of u(put together xD, and i dont even have that much), and with arguably one of the best falcons. Pivot grabbing=getting punished for 15-30 damage unless hes put himself in a bad position, the cg gets very little damage and only works on FD, both can kil easily, falcon has a cg on yoshi that does more than yoshis on falcon, falcon combos yoshi better than vica versa imo. Yoshi has eggs, bair, and edgeguarding. Falcon has faster damage dealing, better punishing, and actually has a decent edgeguarding game against yoshi, because his utilt goes through eggs, and his uair is rediculously fast.

Also, falcon can take advantage of yoshi being under him better than vica versa, falcons uair is better for that sort of thing.

 

[SOVAman]

It would make me really happy if u made jiggs 6-4, and falcon 5-5.


I probably have more TOURNAMENT falcon experience than all of u(put together xD, and i dont even have that much), and with arguably one of the best falcons. Pivot grabbing=getting punished for 15-30 damage unless hes put himself in a bad position, the cg gets very little damage and only works on FD, both can kil easily, falcon has a cg on yoshi that does more than yoshis on falcon, falcon combos yoshi better than vica versa imo. Yoshi has eggs, bair, and edgeguarding. Falcon has faster damage dealing, better punishing, and actually has a decent edgeguarding game against yoshi, because his utilt goes through eggs, and his uair is rediculously fast.

Also, falcon can take advantage of yoshi being under him better than vica versa, falcons uair is better for that sort of thing.

I agree Falcon is a neutral matchup

 

[Mmac]

I still don't see Yoshi being Neutral against Falcon. Sorry, but I feel that Yoshi just has too many Options against Falcon. I just dunno.

.... Wait Falcon has a Chaingrab now?


Also, reason's on Jigglypuff?

 

[Deleted member]

Falcon has an fthrow chaingrab on yoshi, which leads to other crap.


Jiggs i wont explain, no point, its obviously not 7-3, its not a counter at all, jiggs can kill and approach yoshi pretty easily, can beat all of yoshis aerials. Id go for 5.5-4.5, but 6-4 is good enough.

Falcon, what can i say, ive given reasons, falcon has just as many options against falcon, he can punish pivot grabs if u try to use them to counter alot of his stuff, which is ur main argument along with no priority, which doesnt make sense, just cuz all of MKs attacks beat yoshis in priority doesnt mean that MK completely destroys yoshi, besides falcon has priority where he needs it in this matchup. Thats all im gonna say, "i cant see it" doesnt count as a counter argument xD

 

[Chaco]

I agree with Stocky actually.

 

[Mmac]

Falcon has an fthrow chaingrab on yoshi, which leads to other crap.

But you sure it's not escapeable? I remember reading about this in the Falcon Boards, and I heard from some people that it doesn't work

Falcon, what can i say, ive given reasons, falcon has just as many options against falcon, he can punish pivot grabs if u try to use them to counter alot of his stuff, which is ur main argument along with no priority, which doesnt make sense, just cuz all of MKs attacks beat yoshis in priority doesnt mean that MK completely destroys yoshi, besides falcon has priority where he needs it in this matchup. Thats all im gonna say, "i cant see it" doesnt count as a counter argument xD

My argument isn't about that Falcon doesn't have priority, It's about how well Falcon can approach Yoshi. I'm well over the fact that Falcon's airs are still good. I'm willing to go with 6:4, but I can't convince myself to it to be any lower. I know you are basing this on experience on not only a good Falcon main, but probably the best Brawl Falcon Main in North America, but could it just be that he's just plain more skillful than you?

Jiggs i wont explain, no point, its obviously not 7-3, its not a counter at all, jiggs can kill and approach yoshi pretty easily, can beat all of yoshis aerials. Id go for 5.5-4.5, but 6-4 is good enough.

I think you do need to explain because I have a different Jigglypuff experience. It seems like Yoshi actually beats all of her airs, but maybe not Pound, but I still beat it out with Uair, or even Dair. Killing I would say no, and the Jigglypuff's I've faced seemed to have troubles approaching me also if I wasn't in her face...

 

[Kiwikomix]

Looking back, 7:3 does seem a little high. I'm still not completely sold on the Falcon thing, though. He still has awful aerial priority, which is where Yoshi will be trying to fight him most of the time.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes im postitive it works, i tried spamming jump and nair and u cant get out till a certain percent.

Falcon can approach yoshi pretty well. He can pretty much lure out a bair and punish with dash attack, uair, grab, nair, etc. If you pivot grab, he can jump back or just falling uair to jab to grab to fthrow cg once or twice(if ur at lower percents), to nair or something silly like that.

Look, an even matchup means it will go either way depending on the skill of the opponent. He is a better player than me, so he wins(i won our first tourny set tho). I am against judging matchups from experience, but sometimes, u NEED the experience to enlighten you. For example, i didnt know lucarios fsmash had so little ending lag until i played one in tourny, which is why my thoughts on the matchup changed.
In falcons case, few people play falcon, and so experience is hard to come by. Ive given my opinion along with things falcon can do that most of u probably dont know due to lack of GOOD falcon experience.

Also, there goes the low priority thing again. He has priority where he needs it.

Why would falcon attack an aerial yoshi using his back air. Thats like the stupidist thing a falcon can do, its like running at a snake using ftilt u just dont do it.

 

[Kress]

Why would falcon attack an aerial yoshi using his back air. Thats like the stupidist thing a falcon can do, its like running at a snake using ftilt u just dont do it.

True
10rainbow yoshis *_*

Anyway, I have to agree with stocky (omg im not even regular here and im alredy calling him "stocky" XD), C.Falcon may not have the biggest priority, but he's fast, and his Uair is insane. Besides, you cant spam egg at him at all, if he read's em, you get punished. AND you cant rely on grabing C.Falcon at all, he's too fast to fall on pivot grabs or dash grabs.