Yoshi Matchup Thread

[Defender]

Here's something I have to clear up:
I'm writing the summary for Dedede right now, and Bwett explicitly says that Dedede can't be CG'ed. However, LilB's CG chart explicitly says that he can be. What's going on?

Edit: I also need some "closing thoughts" for the Dedede and Wario summaries. Someone needs to post a reason why the matchup is that particular score, or what gives you huge troubles, or something in a nice paragraph format. I don't want it to be me, since that's a bit cocky. See the Mario analysis for an example.

OK, I'll give it a shot.

So, in conclusion, the Wario vs. Yoshi match-up is pretty even in most areas, but also largely momentum based. This is due to the fact that both characters posses moves that will very quickly turn the tide of battle in their favor; namely, Wario's forward smash and waft and Yoshi's infinite grab, and both characters also possess great comboing ability which let's them keep the momentum once they have it. The only one thing that really slants the match towards one fighter or the other, and the thing that leads to the match-up being rated 6.5 to 3.5 in Yoshi's favor, is Yoshi's infinite grab. So, since it is such an important part of this match-up, the Yoshi player should be sure to take advantage of it whenever possible, but the Yoshi player also needs to keep in mind just how close the rest of the match is and, like in all fights, avoid being overconfident.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Dedede analysis is up. I'll start working on Wario next.

@ Mmac: I keep forgetting you're Canadian, so you spell "offensive" differently than we do. Do you also say "colour", or is that just a Brit thing?

 

[Mmac]

Dedede analysis is up. I'll start working on Wario next.

@ Mmac: I keep forgetting you're Canadian, so you spell "offensive" differently than we do. Do you also say "colour", or is that just a Brit thing?

Yes we say Colour >_>

We also say Favourite, Flavour, and..... I dunno, we just put "U"s in front of "O"s randomly. I don't know the system for that

 

[Chaco]

Someone do Pika please...I just got ***** by a spamming one...

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yes we say Colour >_>

We also say Favourite, Flavour, and..... I dunno, we just put "U"s in front of "O"s randomly. I don't know the system for that

Taken from the british system I think.

Or Canadians are just better >.>________

DK actually became a disadvantage? ****......everything...everything I know makes no sense anymore. Men make babies now and turtles eat eagles.

 

[Mmac]

DK actually became a disadvantage? ****......everything...everything I know makes no sense anymore. Men make babies now and turtles eat eagles.

He's ****ing scary! Sorry, but his ground range, speed, and power is just too good. Plus he plays a mean defencive game

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Doesn't yoshi's dtilt and maybe ftilt beat out most of ness's ground game due to range?

 

[PKNintendo]

I think we should look into some of the matchups more next. I'm nominating these as "High Priority" discussions

Luigi - 4:6? (I think he's actually alot tougher than what we say he is)
Ness - 4.5:5.5? (I dunno, his Airs are pretty tricky, but he's actually pretty easy to snag out of them. Plus he's easily gimped)
MetaKnight - 4.5:5.5? (Cmon! It's Meta Freaken Knight! I am possitive this is a Neutral Matchup. Hell, I even see people saying that Yoshi actually has an advantage over him!)
Pit - ??? (I think we need to discuss him more period)

Anyways, I doubt Falcon is close to even against Yoshi. Yoshi just has too many greater counter options against him. I know Falcon has some options too, but... I just don't know. Plus on their board, they have characters listed much harder than Yoshi, and I'm more than certain they pose even less than a threat than Yoshi.

Anyways, I'll discuss Dedede, as he is not as discussed.

Starting off, Dedede is probably THE Defencive character. I have rarely seen a Offencive Dedede in my life (Excluding Edgeguarding). Anyways, To start of, he has some amazing tilts. However his Smashes are not as good, and his Jab is decent. All 3 Tilts have some good range, and don't really leave him open enough. Not to mention his trademark Chaingrabs make it even worse. Though if you go in with a full speed Bair, you can actually beat out his Shield grab, though he's still going to be hard to approach. Dair is probably you're best bet, but you can also try some Mario style short range eggs, to open up an approach.

Speaking of, while you'll probably never get a chance to Chaingrab him, Running grabs is still pretty effective, but risky. If you can manage to get him into his Mouth, you can attempt probably one of the hardest Chaingrabs in the game. It's quite possible online though. Yoshi's Projectile game beats out Dedede's due to the longer range, and can catch Dedede easily off guard. You can even stop Dees and Doos by just jabbing! But look out for the spikey things!

In the air, it's no better. He's the equivalent of a Terran Battlecruiser (Sans the Yamato Gun). His Bair, Uair, and Dair makes it very hard for Yoshi to get in from all sides. However, he is just a giant target for the eggs. A Short Hop Egg to a DJ Air is an excellent way to set up an attack against the slow moving fat penguin, though tricky to do.

Edgeguarding is both bad for eachother. Dedede's Fair, like mentioned before, is like Ike's. Plus his Bair is just hard to avoid. Also his throwables are also a pain. Best bet is to go for the edge. Don't try to go high, or else you have to face Uairs and Utilts. Edgeguarding Dedede, though is just as easily. Thankfully for his slow airspeed and fat belly, he's a pretty easy character to spike. Look out for the super armour on his UpB though, but you can easily intercept him on the way down. you can even beat him out with a Uair from underneath!

And that's pretty much all I got to say for now. I think it should stay at 4:6 though, he's just too tricky to approach.

I can do Ness vs Yoshi.

With Yoshi, facing a B sticking Ness can be a pain (setting B specials to C-stick) getting trapped by PK fire always Ness to usually follow up with his bat. Yoshi gets trapped in it for a decent amount of time due to him being heavy. On the ground, needs to watch out for PKF.
Ness' ground killers are his bat (difficult to land) and his backthrow (Yoshi is pretty heavy, so he dies late) Yoshi forward tilt can pressure Ness, while Ness yo-yo's are a good defense tool.
On the ground their equal at some points. At low%, Ness is advantageous due to b-sticked PKF, defensive smashes, e.c.t. At high %, Yoshi is definetely leading due to his simple, yet effective killers.

Aerial wise, Ness and Yoshi are also pretty even.
Ness fair is pretty fast and has good priority, while Yoshi's equivalent is his back air. Both can spike, (Ness has a better spike, his down air has less startup but more knockback) They both have up aerials that kill. (Yoshi's up air kills earlier than Ness') And Both nairs are effective spacing moves and good approaches. Watch out for PKT tail whip (where he leads into PKT2)

*Remember the DJC duo? They used DJC all of the time! Ness and Yoshi we're close buddies back then. Good times, good times.

Recovery wise, both characters have underrated recoveries. Ness and Yoshi have impressive double jumps, and rarely need to use their recoveries.

At the end of the day there both pretty even. 50-50.

 

[Defender]

!!!!WARNING!!!!

Wario may be able to escape Yoshi's infinite grab! Recent research by Wario mains has resulted in finding a way to escape from the infinite grabs some characters have on Wario. No solution to the Yoshi infinite has yet been found, but, while doing some research of my own on the infinte with Wario Nut, we found that Wario can occasionally grab-break on the ground. We don't know how to replicate this rare result, but if a way is found, our days of infinte grabbing Wario are over.

Anyway, I just wanted to say something about this before we got too far from the Wario discussion.

 

[Shiri]

Characters can grab break Yoshi by mashing buttons while they're being pulled in by the tongue.

The buttons and analog stick inputs provided while being pulled in will count towards your "struggle" and may allow you to immediately break free.

Thankfully, the pivot grabs used for the Wario infinite are pretty quick, so chances are incredibly slim for them to break. If they do break after the constant mashing, chances are they will immediately shield or roll, so a grab to follow is probably the best option once they've broken out on ground, LOL!

 

[Bwett]

Dedede can be CG'ed, but it's extremely difficult to do because you need a frame perfect dash and grab on release.

I can't accept that lol. Whenever I do my chain grabs, he can just jump so he isnt even low enough to be grabbed again at any point in time. However, I'm willing to change my mind if I see it in action with someone DI'ing up and away while spamming jump. Also, on the definition of chaingrabbing, are we saying grabs that you can pull off without any possible way of getting out or grabs that it is possible to get out, but the opponent just doesn't do it properly. Mostly, I bring this up because I've seen alot of chaingrabbing terms being tossed around, like falco's ability to be chaingrabbed, but can't he just spot dodge it? If he can spot dodge it, then the chain grab is nonexistant to me. This is just a little thing that bothers me

On the notion of chaingrabbing other characters, I'm having a difficult time pulling wario's infinite. Is there a video out and how exactly is it performed, just grab or pivot or what?

 

[Mmac]

I like to point out that Yoshi can sometimes escape the PK Fire Pillar quite fast by DI and Double Jumping.

So everyone agree on Ness being 5:5?
Also, where do we stand on Pit?

Anyways, I'll start on MetaKnight:

MetaKnight, The name itself strikes fears upon every Warrior and Creature in the world of Smash. However, Cute, Fun Loving, Egg Throwing Dinosaurs don't need to (Or Giant Dragon Turtles, or Gorrias, but that's another story). Yoshi has one important defence, and that's Pivot Grabs. They stop every ground based approach he has (Even his dreaded Tornado!). Yoshi's Usmash and Uair stops every Air Approach he has. Combine those two, and MetaKnight is going to have one hell of a time approaching. Even Spotdodging doesn't work because you can just spotdodge his Dsmash afterwards, then follow up with a Jab+Jab+Running Grab Combo. Plus every Grab basically leads into a 30 Damage Combo! Also, Release Grab to Usmash leads to a much easier time killing him, who is otherwise, very hard to Kill in the first place!

Course, MetaKnight isn't going to rush into your Impenetrable Wall of Yoshi, so you have to bait him into attacking. Well Spaced Eggs can give him the illusion of an opening, and same with a fake Pivot Grab, both which Yoshi can react in time to snag him. Course, even if MetaKnight does break in, Yoshi can still fight back quite well, and he can escape easily to get back into position. In the Air, he can't chase you with your amazing airspeed, and on the ground you can do a Falling Bair to Ftilt combo. Edgeguarding, MetaKnight can Edgeguard quite well, but his poor Horizontal Speed compared to your great Horizontal Speed hinders him. You can just breeze right past him with a DJ+Airdodge. However, it's pointless to Edgeguard him too. Eggs work good, but that's it.

Being Aggressive with MetaKnight is Pointless, you'll never win. His Defencive game is just too good. You both have great defencive games against eachother, but You have something he doesn't. A Projectile. So he has to be aggressive against you, which puts the game to your advantage. The more I talk about this matchup and the more I play against Enemy MetaKnight. I grow more and more confident about how well Yoshi does against MetaKnight, Maybe into the advantage territory!

Conclusion, Taking MetaKnight head-on will only lead to your death. However by playing defensively, you are basically putting all of Yoshi's Strengths into one Wall of Yoshi, which MetaKnight has to be very clever to break into. Even if he does, his Poor Airspeed allows you to relocate easily, plus He can defend himself quite well also. As long as you stay defencive, space well, and don't do anything stupid, You will stand a very good chance against the supersonic batwinged terror.

 

[Mmac]

I can't accept that lol.

On the notion of chaingrabbing other characters, I'm having a difficult time pulling wario's infinite. Is there a video out and how exactly is it performed, just grab or pivot or what?

Honestly, I actually think it's too hard to even try. It was a pain in the *** to get it right with Big, so I don't think it's worth it. Also Falco can't be chaingrabbed.

And I can do a video on Wario's infinite. I can do it quite good now actually, because I found a visual mark to do it with. Notice that Yoshi reacts when Wario escapes. Look at him, and Grab as soon as the animation is over.

Edit: Crap, Double Post.

Meh

 

[Deleted member]

Meh i need lucario help. i lost to one in a tourny today >:l

Hes hard to kill, and his fsmash is like unpunishable. =/

 

[Shiri]

Forward smash is supposed to be unpunishable. That's why Azen plays Lucario, LOL.

The only way to beat forward smash, really, is to do a slow full jump pre-emptively and perform a falling neutral air while Lucario's performing the move. If you're on the ground at all when Lucario starts the attack, you cannot punish this move. Do not try. It will not work. Period.

Lucario, overall, can be sorta hard to kill, but his playstyle makes baiting spotdodges really easy and you can attempt forward smashes if you're feeling lucky and have a quick trigger finger for it. Horizontal KOs are where it's at, because he's pretty easy to edgeguard, thankfully.

 

[SOVAman]

I played Azen's Lucario in a friendly at a tourney and I got destroyed. I don't know if Lucario counters Yoshi or if Azen is to good. But, he 2 stocked me because of my stupid mistakes and because Lucario KOs easily. Most Characters have troble KOing Yoshi because of how heavy he is and it is also hard to land a KO move on Yoshi because Yoshi has fast attacks and Yoshi combos.

Anyways I don't know how to beat a Lucario.

 

[Snowstalker]

The Ness matchup thread has Ness vs. Yoshi at 55-45 in Ness's favor.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I'm sorry, I'm running a little behind on the Wario summary, but I should have it up by sometime later today.
Anyway, who should we discuss next? The thread is kind of all over the place... do we want Lucario, Ness, or Pit?

 

[Deleted member]

Thanks shiri, yea i kinda found out that trying to SH over fsmash doesnt work =P
I totally shoulda thought of full hop ff nairs thankz!

UHh lets do ness, i know a bit more about that matchup.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Wario analysis is up. I need some shortcuts on that thing or something.
Ness, huh? Who wants to start it up?

 

[PKNintendo]

I agree 50-50.

 

[Defender]

Characters can grab break Yoshi by mashing buttons while they're being pulled in by the tongue.

The buttons and analog stick inputs provided while being pulled in will count towards your "struggle" and may allow you to immediately break free.

Thankfully, the pivot grabs used for the Wario infinite are pretty quick, so chances are incredibly slim for them to break. If they do break after the constant mashing, chances are they will immediately shield or roll, so a grab to follow is probably the best option once they've broken out on ground, LOL!

Wow, Shiri, I'm in awe of your vast knowledge of Smash! Is there anything about the game that you don't know about? Anyway, thanks for clearing this up for me.

 

[Shiri]

No problem.

Anyway, as far as Ness goes, I've always counterpicked with Peach, so I have approximately 0 experience in this matchup, except against my buddy's Ness, which is slightly erratic and exceptionally ********, so it doesn't count.

 

[Mmac]

I was hoping we would do MetaKnight Next, because he's pretty much the most debatable character here.

We could do him and Lucario this week, then Pit/Ness next

 

[Deleted member]

Hmmm, ive actually only played one MK in tourny, so all i will say is 45-55 or 4-6 MKs advantage, if the MK knows the matchup as well as you.

Lucario id put as 4-6. Yoshi doesnt have much problem with his camping, the problem is his approaching. Sh fair to nair/dair/fair, pretty much owns yoshi, he cant do anything about them really. Aura sphere is mostly an annoyance. Jab to side b is lame. smart lucarios are actually hard to gimp, i take back my previous statement. His usmash is slow, but it has a crazy long lastin hitbox. Yoshi doesnt have many advantages in this matchup, except eggs, which are always amazing.

 

[Chaco]

Guys I asked for help against Ike in the Ike forum so I'll post all the responses here soon.

 

[Onxy]

If Charizard, and Ivy are 4/6 and 5/5 respectively, then how is there an advantage over the PT?

 

[Mmac]

Squirtle... Yoshi completely owns him

Plus Ivysaur is 5.5

 

[Onxy]

So what if Ivy is a 5.5, it's still a neutral. That's like saying "Oh, the match up is a 5.5/4.5, it's a neutral, but we'll say advantage anyway". A neutral is a neutral, and besides, it's not hard to keep Squirtle out of the picture at all, just micro-manage. Charizard supposedly as an advantage, Ivy is neutral, and Squirtle is at a disadvantage, it's a neutral matchup with PT.

Yeah, I realize that Charizard's advantage is smaller than Yoshi's advantage with Squirtle. Like I said, It's not hard to manage your pokemon.

I'll agree to a 5.5/4.5 matchup instead of 6/4

 

[Kiwikomix]

Yoshi can deal with two of PT's Pokemon better than PT can deal with Yoshi.
PT can't spend all of his time using Charizard, so he'll spend at least one stock getting beat.
It's probably actually a lot closer to 5.75:4.25, but I rounded up because it seems ridiculous to micromanage something like that.

 

[Onxy]

No, but he can spend all of his time using Ivy and Char. He can completely avoid using Squirtle, if a good PT wanted to.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Yes, I understand that Squirtle doesn't even have to be used. But without him, the damage-racking aspect of PT's game is severely lacking. What do you have to fall back on, besides bullet seed and maybe rock smash?
Plus, Squirtle is the only character that can even slightly deal with Yoshi's projectile spam. How are you going to get around it with Ivy or Charizard, both of which are sluggish and/or large characters? (Yes, I know Charizard has a fast run speed, don't tell me.)
I'm sure there's more that I could go on with. My point is that forcing you to completely cut out one of your Pokemon reduces the effectiveness of the other two.

 

[Onxy]

This is Yoshi we're talking about, not Falco. It's not hard to get around his projectile. They can get around it the same way anyone else can.

Isn't Ivy at a neutral, and Charizard at a advantage? It sounds like you are disagreeing with it, and it is your list.

How can Squirtle be a damage racker to a character that he can't even hit?

 

[Kiwikomix]

This is me palming my face.

You're a PT main, right? In most matchups, Squirtle is the damage racker, Charizard is the KO user, and Ivy is the middleman usually brought out just long enough to bridge the gap between players.
In this matchup, there IS no middleman because Squirtle is completely useless. So the balance between characters is extremely skewed. Ivy has to do her best to rack up damage, which she is pretty awful at outside of bullet seed and bair.
And what if one Pokemon gets fatigued? You'll have to switch to the only other usable one, who might not even perform that well in that particular situation. What's Charizard going to do against a Yoshi at 20%?

Let me break this down. The average of each character's disadvantage to Yoshi is 4.5. So the matchup would be 5.5:4.5, but you have to take into account that Ivy-Char is not a complete character. That fact alone helps contribute at least .5 points.

It's not as easy to avoid the eggs as you would think. Ivysaur has crap for both aerial and ground speed, and Charizard will be moving on the ground only, so he's easy to track.

 

[Onxy]

A pokemon HAS to switch when it is fatigued? No, just when you need the kill, not when you fight. Ivy has some damage issues, and moreso when fatigued, but why would I switch? Charizard is still fully usable when fatigued, and if I have to, I can use Squirtle as my janitor.

I know how the PT works, thanks for telling me. PT's matchups are always skewed because of a pokemon's bad matchup. You'll be suprised at how much Squirtle is NOT being used because of multiple bad matchups, so he is rarily the damage racker. Ivy is pure defense, and Charizard is a great tank/KO'er.

I'm arguing for a 5.5/4.5 matchup because of Squirtle's disadvantage here, and the fact that I have to stay clear of Squirtle, makes it a 5.5/4.5 and not a 5/5.

The egg isn't hard to avoid, you can see it from a mile away. You're giving it too much credit.

 

[Bwett]

The egg isn't hard to avoid, you can see it from a mile away. You're giving it too much credit.

You have to keep in mind that it isn't just the egg that you are avoiding, it's the punishment that follows for avoiding the egg. So, first you have to avoid it properly. Not powershielding usually results in a free grab from a yoshi player. Also, you might be able to see an egg coming, but I doubt you can avoid 5 eggs coming at you. Alot of people don't give enough credit to eggs and their power.

One really amazing thing is let's say you are in the air kinda high. I toss an egg at you. You see it from a mile away and dodge it, but while you are dodging, I jump under you, waiting for the dodge invincibility to be over and punish with uair for the kill.

 

[Onxy]

I said that he gave too much credit to the egg, not that it didn't deserve any. I know, dodging anything leaves you open for a follow up. Yoshi can't throw that many eggs, to the point if I dodge one, I get hit by another egg; I use Yoshi a lot, and I have played against good ones too. Eggs aren't that great, good, but not great. Kinda reminds me of Ivy's Razor Leaf in some way.

 

[Bwett]

Dude, no offense, but if you don't think that eggs are amazing, then you haven't played yoshi enough. My game revolves around my eggs

 

[Onxy]

Amazing for Yoshi, but eggs =/= sex. What I mean is, Falco's Lasers are what I consider great.

 

[Bwett]

Well of course falco's lasers owns yoshi's eggs. I'm just saying, for Yoshi, that is a huge part of his game, and therefore, is amazing for him. =)