Yoshi Matchup Thread

[[FBC] ESAM]

I would say ZSS has the slight advantage, 5.5 4.5. Even with our egg her range is very very irritating. First hand exp from my bro.

 

[SOVAman]

this thread should be stickied

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Seriously, it should.

 

[Shiri]

People don't read stickies, though.

We should have it unstickied, kept on the first page by the sheer quality and persistence of the discussion.

Or something. ¬_¬

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

But if the discussion is over because everybody agrees, now what?

 

[Kiwikomix]

Uno. Mods hate the Yoshi threads so they prolly wouldn't come here to sticky it anyway unless we PM'ed them or something obnoxious.
Dos. It's time for discussion. We know the matchups and we're reasonably sure of them, but now we need to start discussing strategies on how to beat them. You know, what to look out for, what strategies are effective, etc.

 

[Chaco]

So who do we start with...?

 

[Kress]

Why dont we start with mario? the lets keep on going with luigi, peach, bowser, dk, and so on...
Or with the most troublesome characters

 

[Kiwikomix]

Mario seems fine... and good idea Kress, the whole "down-the-roster" thing will be a good way to get an alternate order.
I'ma go have a peek on other character-specific boards to see how they do their analyses.

Edit: All right, here's things to potentially keep in mind:
- Threatening moves
- Edgeguarding (you and them)
- General Strategies
- Stage Choices
- Enemy thoughts on the matchup (if possible)
- Videos?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I'll say stuff for pikachu, since i main him.

 

[Chaco]

Mario seems fine... and good idea Kress, the whole "down-the-roster" thing will be a good way to get an alternate order.
I'ma go have a peek on other character-specific boards to see how they do their analyses.

Edit: All right, here's things to potentially keep in mind:
- Threatening moves
- Edgeguarding (you and them)
- General Strategies
- Stage Choices
- Enemy thoughts on the matchup (if possible)
- Videos?

Alright, let us begin.

Mario, everyone's favorite plumber....we have a neutral match-up here. So with Mario, you will want to start out on the offensive. Start with a few eggs, then bair approach into tilt combo. That has always worked for me to start out against them. The main thing you are worried with on aerial approaches is the Utilt, Mario's Utilt is excellent. You can get caught in that sucker. But moving along you will want to watch out on your recovery Mario easuly footstools Yoshi. And watch out for the cape on recovery eggs. (That will seriously f*** you up.) Fsmash is move to watch out for, but you can get out an Ftilt faster. But I would prefer a jab in that situation. Jabs are also key in this fight, good knockback with excellent priority.

Moving along to the edge guarding, Mario's edge guarding isn't that useful against Yoshi. You can come from underneath with a Uair and still get back up on the stage. And even go over him. but you have to watch out for footstools. While Yoshi's gaurding can be key in this match up. On the ledge or not Yoshi can give Mario hell. Egg sniping, Dtilt guarding, and edge guarding when he is out and does his recovery to latch on to the latch not to knock you off. You see, Mario's recovery can remove you from the ledge. So, you will not want to edge hog when he is under you, but out to the side and does it to try and make it back to the ledge. You block the grab easily. So, now to the Dtilt guarding excellent from when is underneath you, so get on the edge and use dtilt when he is about to grab the ledge this will knock him back and force him to use his recovery again. Keep this process going until missing or until he finally recovers. Egg sniping is also a good choice for further knockbacks on FD you can say no to the recovery before it happens.

Well, discuss, Stocky correct me, and on that note I'm through.

 

[Matador]

From the perspective of a mario main: Fireballs are definitely something that I'd use to initiate a combo or start my approach. Eggs definitely wouldn't be a worry of mine because they're slow enough to see coming and have time enough to cape. Fullhopped fireballs -> Uair/Nair leads into an utilt chain that could last well into yoshi's 30%s. Up-angled Fsmash KOs Yoshi around 110%, and Usmash around 130%; both of Mario's most reliable KO moves.

Contrary to popular belief, Mario's edgeguarding doesn't work on only a small handful of the roster; Yoshi's not in that handful. The purpose of the cape is not to pseudo "spike", or just turn the recovery around (like in melee) because of the new engine brawl has. In actuality, it's to reverse momentum and reduce jumps in one attack.

Take a look at the first stock in this vid of Boss vs Chozen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U58VuGs-AA8&feature=related
Notice that ROB also goes vertically as well when caped, but was still gimped. His edgeguarding isn't linear, but very versatile and can adapt to w/e situation as long as the opponent isn't above. Aside from caping and Fludd, Mario has reverse uairs, Bairs, Capeglide -> Meteor, multiple caping, etc. Just to summarize, staying out of Mario's reach (above him) is far safer than going below; especially since your aerial mobility and ability to attack below you is above average. Chaco covered your edgeguarding options well, and they seem effective. As for stage selection, Mario's recovery is what you want to exploit. Pick a stage you think will screw it up.

No vids

 

[Mmac]

I think Yoshi can escape Mario's Utilt lock. He can escape Luigi's with a Nair, So I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same deal here.

The only thing I see Is that Yoshi is different than ROB. Yoshi's DJ is like the equivalent of 2.5 ROB Jumps. Since the Cape Doubles the momentum of the Vertical momentum, I think that would make Yoshi too high for Mario to re-intercept in most cases. Plus Yoshi has a better turning speed than ROB, and has the best Horizontal Movement in the game, not to mention the Egg's can stall him in the air, so I don't think it would be so easy for Mario.

Also FLUDD doesn't Hinder Yoshi at all. It actually Helps him!

 

[SOVAman]

From the perspective of a mario main: Fireballs are definitely something that I'd use to initiate a combo or start my approach. Eggs definitely wouldn't be a worry of mine because they're slow enough to see coming and have time enough to cape.

Yoshi's eggs are faster then you think also I have played a friendly against boss before and he did not cape all the eggs nor did he try because its easier to dodge. But, he did combo me even though I got a few combos he still comboed me a lot more.

 

[Matador]

I think Yoshi can escape Mario's Utilt lock. He can escape Luigi's with a Nair, So I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same deal here.

The only thing I see Is that Yoshi is different than ROB. Yoshi's DJ is like the equivalent of 2.5 ROB Jumps. Since the Cape Doubles the momentum of the Vertical momentum, I think that would make Yoshi too high for Mario to re-intercept in most cases. Plus Yoshi has a better turning speed than ROB, and has the best Horizontal Movement in the game, not to mention the Egg's can stall him in the air, so I don't think it would be so easy for Mario.

Also FLUDD doesn't Hinder Yoshi at all. It actually Helps him!

You're probably right; Luigi's utilt is better than Mario's. Utilt chains are a bad spot also because it's a good trap. I could release the chain early if I think you'd nair and shieldgrab it, or utilt -> Usmash instead of continuous tilts. The fact that it's relatively easy to set up this chain is bad for Yoshi.

Indeed, it increases vertical height, but your horizontal momentum is now turned in the other direction for the duration of the jump. To turn back around, you're sacrificing that vertical height to return to where you were. At this point, there's nothing you can safely do because your jump is gone, so doing any attack could put you below the stage with no hope of getting back. The fact that Yoshi is very speedy in the air only makes this worse, because you're going fast in the wrong direction. THIS is where Fludd would come in handy, because you still have your upB to help you gain momentum and protect your approach back to the stage. Fludd doesn't push you backward very much, but that's not the point. Fludd will kill that momentum long enough for you to not be able to reach the edge. Fludd is only useless during your DJ, which is where the cape is used. Any other point during your recovery is vulnerable to fludd.

Edit @ lilb93: Right, Yoshi's eggs aren't going to be caped EVERY time. Of course some get through. The point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't effect Mario nearly as much as it would someone like Luigi or Ike since they don't deal with projectiles well.

 

[Kress]

Big issues against mario:
1) FireBalls: They dont rack up much damage, but they are mario's proyectile, and if he starts spamming 'em, you're in a trouble. Why? Well, your eggs may have more range, but they are slow, by the time you launch one egg, mario alredy throws two fireballs. Besides, mario's fireballs stops yoshi's eggroll, so he forces you to approach by air. That is another problem, becouse of his...
2) Uair: It's awesome, mario's Uair can easely juggle you, so that's a problem too...
3) Edgeguard (Mario edgeguards you): Dont worry abut his fludd, worry about his cape. If you throw an egg to recover, and he manages to land his cape on you, youre dead. Actually, a nice strategy it's to use your egg toss BEFORE you use your second jump (TAP JUMP OFF). And dont come from below to the stage, that means cape or Fair.

Of course, once you approach mario, he's not that hard. Youre better on da grond, just avoid his FSmash, attack him with tilts. Youre better on da air too, just avoid his Uair.

That's all of what I can think now.

 

[Matador]

Of course, once you approach mario, he's not that hard. Youre better on da grond, just avoid his FSmash, attack him with tilts. Youre better on da air too, just avoid his Uair.

That's all of what I can think now.

How do you figure? Mario's jab game and grabs both lead to combos, and he can do shorthopped aerials which makes for difficult approaching. Both of us can Bair WoP, though yoshi's is infinitely better, and Fsmash has serious range/disjointed hitbox.

I'll agree with the better aerial game, however.

 

[Deleted member]

Uhhh id have to disagree with mario edgeguarding yoshi, he can just airdodge the cape =/
Fireballs are amazing against yoshi, no pivot grabs or reverse bairs to defend against those. Uhh im kinda lazy, i think its 4.5-5.5 marios advantage, maybe a lil more =/

 

[bigman40]

Socky what are you talking about? Fireballs can get pinged out by Bair.

 

[Kress]

Uhhh id have to disagree with mario edgeguarding yoshi, he can just airdodge the cape =/
Fireballs are amazing against yoshi, no pivot grabs or reverse bairs to defend against those. Uhh im kinda lazy, i think its 4.5-5.5 marios advantage, maybe a lil more =/

I meant that the cape was a problem if youre coming to the stage with your egg toss, with your second jump the cape can be airdodged. That's why I said "use your egg toss jump before the second jump"

About his jabs, yeah, they are great, but you just need to know how much distance there must be for you to hit him with your tilts and avoid his jabs. I personally like the Dtilt while dealing with mario.
His short hopped aerials are great, but yoshi's short hopped Bair is better, and you can always shield grab / pivot grab if you can read his movements.

Well, yoshi's Bair can deal with mario's fireballs, but you need to hit em with the tail, and if mario starts reading you blocking his fireballs with Bair, he'll just throw them higer/lower.

Dun hate me D:!

 

[Matador]

Everyone can airdodge the cape, that doesn't stop me from edgeguarding tho. You just can't be stupid predictable about it. My point is that it's far more possible for Mario to edgeguard Yoshi than most believe, though it's a little difficult.

Using Bair for the fireballs stops from camping and forcing you to approach very well, but the fireballs are mainly for creating an opening in this matchup. Fullhop fireball -> fastfalled nair/uair would be my general approach method. You'd knock out the fireball, sure, but my main focus would be safely landing that aerial. Your bair probably wouldn't be too much of an issue.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi can airdodge the cape during his double jump, so hes invincible for most of it. I time my airdodge depending on where mario is, if hes jumpin out i dodge early, if hes waiting on the stage, i do it a lil later. Nobody else recovers like yoshi, and my point is that mario usually cant edgeguard yoshi if the yoshi is smart with his airdodge.

Also, close up, yoshi's jabs do pretty well against mario (and most characters for that matter).

 

[Kiwikomix]

A few random thoughts that don't really pertain to everything else being said...
- The beginning of the match is a stalemate. Yoshi's eggs get caped and fireballs don't have enough range for Mario to camp. So it's basically up to whoever approaches first.
- If Mario starts jumping to approach, turn around and get ready to bair his attack or fireball -> aerial or whatever, and if he walks, ftilt or pivots will usually stop him.
- If you approach him, bair will usually get the job done, but he might cape -> punish you. Dair is pointless since his uair and usmash outprioritize it and leave you in a place where you're vulnerable to more attacks. You'll have to be pretty cautious overall.
- Mario won't let you stay on the edge for more than a split-second, due to his ground-hugging fireballs. That means ECE's are out. Just use common sense for getting off the ledge... if he's too close (which he shouldn't be) roll past him, otherwise drop off the ledge and do your double jump. Ledgehop -> nair works well the first few times but will become predictable.
- Try not to stay grounded for too long, as Mario's ground game tends to lead into other attacks that you can't deal with (e.g., uair, utilt...). Unfortunately for Mario, he has very limited range in front of and below in the air, so he can't really continue combos across the stage. Although if uair sends you backwards, you'll be in a good position to eat his bair.
- Yoshi > Mario aerially, and fortunately Yoshi's ground moves pop Mario up in the air, but if you're not facing away from Mario to follow up with bairs, he'll start to beat out your forward approaches.

It's starting to feel like a Yoshi advantage to me, but I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting.

 

[Matador]

Yoshi can airdodge the cape during his double jump, so hes invincible for most of it. I time my airdodge depending on where mario is, if hes jumpin out i dodge early, if hes waiting on the stage, i do it a lil later. Nobody else recovers like yoshi, and my point is that mario usually cant edgeguard yoshi if the yoshi is smart with his airdodge.

Also, close up, yoshi's jabs do pretty well against mario (and most characters for that matter).

Indeed, I see what you mean. That'd be a problem, I agree. I still believe Mario can edgeguard him, but I'll argue there's no clear-cut way to do it like you would Kirby or Luigi.
It's difficult, but still very possible.

Yoshi has good jabs, no doubt. They aren't as good for starting up combos as mario's.

 

[BoTastic!]

Because of Yoshi's weight, Utilts work petty well on him as well as Uair juggles.

Mario's dair can rack up damage pretty quickly and can string in some more Uairs.

mario can Pressure Yoshi with fireballs

Mario's Bair and Yoshi's bair trade hits. But.. Mario's does more damage and more knockback. although the one who does it earlier wins.

Fair rips through Yoshi's DJ super armor when sweet spotter with the spike.

Dair outprioritizes a lot of Yoshi's moves same goes with Mario's Usmash. Hi reverse Usmash works even better Because of his hitbox.

Mario can jab lock Yoshi

Mario can cape Yoshi's eggs.

SH Nair and Jabs make up for Mario's CQC.

Yoshi's Uair can juggle Mario and kill him at decent percents

Yoshi's Dtilt has a bit of range

If his bair is done first before Mario's Bair it can lead to and Uair or usmash.

Yoshi's jab to Down B works pretty well and pressurs shield

Nair comes out pretty fast and can kill at decent percents
it beats Marios Dair but its not faster.

the match up is either in Mario's advantage or barely even.

 

[Takeshi245]

Don't forget about Mario being able to jab lock him after nair. Fireballs are better for pressurer since they're faster. Matador and BO X7 just about covered it.

 

[Bwett]

Wow, I love this whole, get the marios to discuss the matchup with us, idea. Pretty awesome, guys. Keep it up!

 

[Mmac]

Because of Yoshi's weight, Utilts work petty well on him as well as Uair juggles.

Fair rips through Yoshi's DJ super armor when sweet spotter with the spike.

Dair outprioritizes a lot of Yoshi's moves

Mario can jab lock Yoshi

I think we already covered that Yoshi can escape Mario's Utilt lock by Nair'ing. Though I think it's true that he can juggle Yoshi with Uair, but can probably also easily escape compare to the other characters.

Fair I think is just too slow to work. Yoshi can easily Airdodge in time.

Probably, But I think Yoshi Uair can beat it.

And Jab lock? Explain!

Although I agree that the matchup is still pretty much even.

 

[BoTastic!]

I think we already covered that Yoshi can escape Mario's Utilt lock by Nair'ing. Though I think it's true that he can juggle Yoshi with Uair, but can probably also easily escape compare to the other characters.

Mario can do a series of Utilts. A lot of Mario players know when his Ultilt juggling ends. If I expect Nuetral Air there is somthing called shield grabbing.

Fair I think is just too slow to work. Yoshi can easily Airdodge in time.

It may be slow but yoshi can't dodge during the begginging of his jump. besides Ike still hits with Fsmash. Mario can connect with Fair.

Probably, But I think Yoshi Uair can beat it.

Yeah, when below him. Yoshi's Uair has a limited Hitbox above him.

And Jab lock? Explain!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIP7QY0anuw

Although I agree that the matchup is still pretty much even.

Maybe in Mario's advantage or barely even.

 

[Mmac]

It may be slow but yoshi can't dodge during the begginging of his jump

Uh... yes he can >_>

And can't Yoshi just Jab Lock Mario Back if he gets the chance?

 

[BoTastic!]

Uh... yes he can >_>

......

my bad just tested it out.. now and Fair doesn't break it either... until Yoshi's percent is high enough. Actually when his percent is high enough a lot of Mario's aerials can break through it.
And can't Yoshi just Jab Lock Mario Back if he gets the chance?

Yoshi can not jab lock

 

[Mmac]

The video said he can <_<

 

[BoTastic!]

The video said he can <_<

i don't see how, everytime i try to jab lock with yoshi it does't work.

the video obviously got that wrong

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

You can't do any lock with yoshi, it is impossible. No attacks have that property except a sour-spotted nair, but that is too slow to work. It also says that pikachu can't but he can, just with a different attack.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Ike still hits with Fsmash.

Maybe online... XP

Also, I forgot that Mario outkills Yoshi pretty badly.

 

[BoTastic!]

Maybe online... XP

Also, I forgot that Mario outkills Yoshi pretty badly.

lol believe it it happens. I connect with Fair every now and then. Its not tha hard.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

And what yoshi do you play against BO X7?

 

[Matador]

Wow, I love this whole, get the marios to discuss the matchup with us, idea. Pretty awesome, guys. Keep it up!

This is how it's done
That's why the matchup chart that Ivan made won't be right anytime soon. Both sides MUST be heard if you wanna have an accurate chart.

I think we can pretty much agree that it's even to the point where each player's skill is all that can really tip the balance. Both have good approach options on each other (Mario = Fireballs, Yoshi = Bair/eggs used smart), and can kill at about the same percentages. Pretty much the same priority and whatnot. If anything, Mario has a slight advantage, not anything big tho.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Sounds good.
Looks like I'll have to start making a summary of all this... wish me luck.

 

[BoTastic!]

And what yoshi do you play against BO X7?

Badgey, Killa, and some other people u don't know..


Not to mention my Yoshi can own some yoshis on this board.