Yoshi Matchup Thread

[Kiwikomix]

Not jabbing oos, up b OOS, which>yoshis dair.

Fine, so you can just approach with bair which > her jab, and if she cancels with zair, just do it again. While zair is a great move, Yoshi has enough aerial speed that the "slow down" thing doesn't really work against him. And you say later that Yoshi can't approach through zairs, I've never really found that to be the case since she can't follow it up with that much. The hitstun just isn't big enough for potential punishment.
Also, how exactly does her spam game beat yours? Eggs move faster and deal more damage than her missiles, not to mention their higher priority.
One more thing: why not just walk to ftilt as an approach? It cancels out all of her projectiles except a fully charged shot, and she can't really deal with it with her own attacks. I'm pretty sure jab cancels out missiles as well.

Midrange is where samus is best, retreating homing missles and zairs ftl.

Should've clarified. By mid-range, I mean just out of zair's range. As Samus knows she'll be punished for most attacks (just duck and she can't zair you), she can't really do much. If she uses a missile, just cancel it with pretty much any attack, preferably an approaching aerial.

ts actually hard to edgeguard because its so unpredictable with bomb jumps, missles to protect her,grapple, and a good up b.

Dairs when she's below, eggs when she's above. Even bomb jumps don't keep her from having a recovery with a fairly straight path and not enough defensive options (besides missiles, which are basically useless in this scenario, dair outprioritizes them and they don't fluster Yoshi when he's egging).
Perhaps our Samus experiences have differed, eh?
(Mathcups ftw)

Well, if the Lucarios really think it's 4:6, maybe I should change it. I'm also updating the PT matchups as 7:3 Squirtle, 5:5 Ivy, and 4:6 Charizard.

Things to keep in mind:
- DK as disadvantage?
- Marth as 3:7?
- IC's even/disadvantage?

And a couple other things to think about...
Zamus seems pretty disputed. I personally don't think I can analyze this particular matchup well enough to help, but so far we have a couple neutrals, a slight disadvantage, and an advantage.
Finally, we REALLY need to at least try to analyze Sheik. As Scala has recently put up some vids against an accomplished Sheik, perhaps we could use them as a starting point for debate?

Keep at it peeps, we're almost finished.

 

[Deleted member]

Ima go ahead and say that zair does 7 damage sweetspotted, it can hit u when ur ducking, and it beats all of your aerials.

Also i beat the c falcon in a tourny match today 2-0 =P Yay for chaingrabs.

Its hard to argue ur points cuz tho some of it is true, its not cut and dry like u make it seem. Samus's zoning game against yoshi(and most characters), is increadibly effective. Its more than the sum of its parts, missles are beatable, charge shots are beatable, and zairs are avoidable, but together, yoshis screwed =P

 

[Mmac]

Things to keep in mind:
- DK as disadvantage?
- Marth as 3:7?
- IC's even/disadvantage?

Yes
Maybe
No

I played enough Ice Climbers to know what they can do, and what I can do to them.

Hmmm.... After playing a Lucario, Maybe he isn't that godly that I once though.

Snake is already 4:6... and I agree with that Matchup. It's not completely hopeless, but ****! I hate his tilts so much!

And I'll try to get some fights with Sheik users

 

[Deleted member]

Haha, online snake is sooooooo much harder than offline snake. Its rediculous how i lose to scrub snakes online but can beat good snakes offline =P

Also i think ICs is even, one grab is a stock, but yoshi can ruff them up quite a bit,

 

[Mmac]

Also i think ICs is even, one grab is a stock, but yoshi can ruff them up quite a bit,

Maybe I am being alittle biased because IC's are handicapped alittle online because they require picture perfect timing, but the stuff I've said about gimping them is true. Just one Dair, and they're screwed, or at least Nana is. Even if Popo makes it back, he's just screwed anyways

 

[Deleted member]

Yea, judging stuff from online only is usually a bad idea.

 

[Shiri]

I am on the fence about the IC matchup. It plays out pretty even, but the paper evidence is in their favor.

One grab for sure ends the stock.

Yoshi has a few ways to handle himself, though. Something almost no character can do is get themselves "un-grabbed" once they've been grabbed and Yoshi can do that with eggs. One thing that for sure hasn't changed from the Melee to Brawl transition is the fact that grabs and neutral B still **** these two icy partners up. It's a shame you can't queue up throws once you've grabbed anymore, because that would have made a lot of difference in this match for Yoshi, but the sliding dash grabs and distance you get out of pivot grabs are clutch.

Don't chew. Just throw.

If you neutral B one, they're considered incapacitated for about 4 seconds. Take that time to harass the other one, be it CPU or otherwise, as hard as you can, especially abusing down tilts, dash attacks on bad techs or tech rolls, and more grabs. Especially try to get the sole one off the edge, even though edgeguarding them isn't cake, it's better than dealing with them on the stage.

And watch out for Side+B. It's the new whorenado.

You can pivot grab it 100% of the time, but if they short hop it or reverse it in the air, they will get a small boost of speed that may catch you off guard, so please be careful.

 

[SOVAman]

The best peach i have played offline is praxis, a really good peach from washington. I won in friendlies, barely, but its definately at least 6-4 peach. I disagree, like ive said, pivots dont shut down anything against good players, just annoy the crap outta them =P Also, llib, what "pro peaches" have you played =P Names pleasies. ,

I have played SSR and Forte just NoVA/Maryland Peach's

 

[Deleted member]

Cool =P I didnt know forte played peach, i thot MK *shrugs*

Also, pick BIG stages against G&W, halberds pretty good cuz u can go under it too =)

 

[SOVAman]

Cool =P I didnt know forte played peach, i thot MK *shrugs*

Also, pick BIG stages against G&W, halberds pretty good cuz u can go under it too =)

well I played his MK too and he beat me but anyways he seconds peach.

want to play me in a online ditto? if you do you can AIM me. I want to play you cuz I only played like one yoshi ditto before against yoster but we couldn't finish cuz people needed the set up/TV for a tournament match.

 

[Deleted member]

This aint the place to do this but sure! Aim pleasies.

Also, on topic, ZSS's dsmash is rediculously gay.

 

[Mmac]

Also, on topic, ZSS's dsmash is rediculously gay.

Agreed, but you can Tech out of it if she tries that Dsmash Dsmash UpB thing. And it only hit's the front so it can be sometimes hard to hit him with

 

[bigman40]

Socky doesn't care about online. DON'T give it to him =P

 

[Deleted member]

I thot i was stocky >

Also, its dsmash dsmash fair that bugs me. Freakin 30ish damage from one easy to pull off string, and then they can just go shoot some of their lazers and then grab and then dthrow and uair and ahhhhhhhhhh it hurtziez!!!


Also bigman can go eat a meaty piece of string.

 

[Kiwikomix]

That would be Stocky, not Socky.

Who are you calling stocky.

Point made.

What do you guys think of 3:7 Marth? 4:6 seems too light.
Also, should we switch to .5s? Mmac wants to but I haven't seen any other input.

 

[Deleted member]

Yea we should to both of those, maybe 6.5-3.5. Also on AGREED MATCHUPS, would it be too much trouble to quote some meaty posts to sum up the matchup, or somebody could kinda write a consensus, like they do on the SBR thread. ANd then if the yoshis think the consenses is ok, then u post it on the first page. Id be willin to do a few -.-

 

[Kiwikomix]

Yeah, that's what I was planning to do once we have every char finished.
Curse you Sheik. I think some fist-shaking is in order, although I personally think the matchup is starting to look even.
So if we're finally updating for .5s, I'll put each disputed matchup as a compromise between them.
And I'm changing DK to his favor, I'm thinking either 4:6 or 3.5:6.5.
Lastly, IC's are changed to even, if you guys don't have any qualms with that.

Edit: A few more things to consider:
Diddy/Pit/Pikachu 4.5:5.5?
Ivysaur 5.5:4.5?
Samus 6.5:3.5?
And I do really need something for Zamus, although I know I've asked for it several times.

 

[Deleted member]

3.5-6.5, definately, now give me a medal!

Lets just not assume stuff on shiek until we know stuff on shiek. K?

 

[Chaco]

4:6. Definitely.

EDIT: Wow, contradiction both with defs.

 

[Deleted member]

Nobody asked u chaco. XD

O btw, i beat a zelda in a tourny yesterday. So hah, take that "3-7" matchup. I will admit, the usmash is hella annoying, same with zeldas jab. Rediculous.

I also beat a G&W and lost to one, but i think that matchup is right =P

 

[Kiwikomix]

Lets just not assume stuff on shiek until we know stuff on shiek. K?

>_> I'm insulted.
What I'm saying is just based off what I saw from Scala's videos against a good opponent. But I do recognize that just one viewpoint isn't really a good basis for a rating.

 

[Mmac]

Lets just not assume stuff on shiek until we know stuff on shiek. K?

Sheik is a male warrior from the Sheikan Tribe dedicated to protecting the Royal Family. He is the last of his kind after Ganondorf, the King of Evil, Took over the land of Hyrule.

Also I think DK is 4:6

Edit: A few more things to consider:
Diddy/Pit/Pikachu 4.5:5.5?
Ivysaur 5.5:4.5?
Samus 6.5:3.5?

Yes to everyone except Pit

Also I'm starting to believe Shiri's Yoshi > ZSS, even though I only fought one, and she almost had me at the start, I manage to easily take care of her when I figured her out at the end.

I say 5.5:4.5, or 6:4. More leaning on 5.5 though

 

[Deleted member]

>_> I'm insulted.
What I'm saying is just based off what I saw from Scala's videos against a good opponent. But I do recognize that just one viewpoint isn't really a good basis for a rating.

O well i didnt know u were lookin at anything. U just said, shiek is lookin like 5-5, so i figured u were just assuming that based on ur knowledge of both characters, but i figure it would be better if we got people who know the matchup well to help us before we write 5-5 =P

 

[Chaco]

nobody Asked U Chaco. Xd

O Btw, I Beat A Zelda In A Tourny Yesterday. So Hah, Take That "3-7" Matchup. I Will Admit, The Usmash Is Hella Annoying, Same With Zeldas Jab. Rediculous.

I Also Beat A G&w And Lost To One, But I Think That Matchup Is Right =p

You Wanna Go Stocky?!

 

[Deleted member]

Yea. Falcon online money match. 9000$, items on. Mr saturn is banned. Lets do it.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Why would Mr. Saturn be banned?

 

[Deleted member]

He breaks shields, we dont want that.

 

[Chaco]

Yea. Falcon online money match. 9000$, items on. Mr saturn is banned. Lets do it.

Agreed. You have 9k I can borrow? XD

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

At least Mr. Saturns talk ****ing awesome. You should look into it.

 

[Depster]

at first shiek seems to out do yoshi, but if you calm down and play smart it gets to be a fairly easy match

 

[Deleted member]

at first shiek seems to out do yoshi, but if you calm down and play smart it gets to be a fairly easy match

Thats vague =P

 

[Scala]

ZSS I think is around a 5:5 matchup, your arial attacks (bair, nair) will cancel out her stun gun and leave her explosed. She loses a lot of options if you play safely. On the other hand she has some wicked range which can outdo you if she uses it right.

 

[SOVAman]

ZSS I think is around a 5:5 matchup, your arial attacks (bair, nair) will cancel out her stun gun and leave her explosed. She loses a lot of options if you play safely. On the other hand she has some wicked range which can outdo you if she uses it right.

I agree with everything you but you forgot that Yoshi has a way better projectile. ZSS's gun is not that good and it doesn't go far.

 

[Depster]

Thats vague =P

Ya... not too much to say. This should be more of a ranged battle. It seems like a goofy matchup =/ her aerials are good, her smashes are good, but she isn't that good, it's hard to explain. You'd expect her Fsmash to be really overpowered, but it seems to have really low priority, especially in between kicks. Her down and up smashes do a little better, but don't seem that tough. It's kinda awkward to approach shiek, but once you find a way to do it (Eggs for stunning then go in with a grab or Bair), it makes the match a lot easier. Uair beats her Dair, but its the only one I feel comfortable challeging, her Fair is kinda like ganon's and mario's, her Bair is like Falcon's, and her Uair is a buffed up version of Samus's. Bair might take her forward and backward airs, but her Uair just needs to be dodged. It sounds hard, but calming down helps a lot

 

[Bwett]

I love how whenever we have a tough matchup, we say "just calm down and it shouldn't be that bad". Not making fun of anyone, just noticing a trend lol.

 

[Chaco]

Ya... not too much to say. This should be more of a ranged battle. It seems like a goofy matchup =/ her aerials are good, her smashes are good, but she isn't that good, it's hard to explain. You'd expect her Fsmash to be really overpowered, but it seems to have really low priority, especially in between kicks. Her down and up smashes do a little better, but don't seem that tough. It's kinda awkward to approach shiek, but once you find a way to do it (Eggs for stunning then go in with a grab or Bair), it makes the match a lot easier. Uair beats her Dair, but its the only one I feel comfortable challeging, her Fair is kinda like ganon's and mario's, her Bair is like Falcon's, and her Uair is a buffed up version of Samus's. Bair might take her forward and backward airs, but her Uair just needs to be dodged. It sounds hard, but calming down helps a lot

Sheik is a harder match up for Yoshi. And what your saying makes sense. And I agree that the approach is the hardest thing to do it. I would say spam those eggs and stay airborne away from Sheik's fast damage capabilities.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Yoshi > Sheik in the air, Sheik > Yoshi on the ground, Yoshi air > Sheik ground. 'Nuff said. She doesn't really have enough range to beat out most of your attacks. However, she is very good at punishing, and while Yoshi isn't that easily punished, she can usually find a way to capitalize on your every mistake.
........THAT'S why I think it's even.

Also, most of you seem to think 5:5ish is a good option for Zamus, even though Shiri disagrees.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Kiwi, can you explain WHY yoshi>shiek air, sheik>yoshi ground, and Yoshi air>sheik ground plz?

 

[Kiwikomix]

I'm sorry, I'm thinking of all these situations as "Yoshi approaches" situations, which won't always be the case, because Yoshi can sometimes force Sheik to come to him. So these examples are all Yoshi approaches.

Yoshi's uair beats Sheik's dair.
Yoshi's bair beats Sheik's fair.
Sheik's bair beats Yoshi's fair.
Sheik's uair beats Yoshi's dair.
Sheik's nair ties Yoshi's nair. (Depends on whose is used at what time.)
So normally that would mean it was neutral in the air, right? However, the moves that Yoshi tends to actually use multiple times (meaning not fair or dair) are greater than or equal to Sheik's moves. The Yoshi bair > Sheik fair is huge, considering that it involves the primary aerial moves of each character.

Now for ground game. There are way more options on the ground than what I can just list, but Sheik gains the advantage because she can keep a ground-advancing Yoshi at bay with the chain and needles, neither of which are as big of a pain when you're coming from the air. Yoshi's ground game is pretty lackluster in most cases, and this one isn't much different. Tilts tend to destroy Sheik if she's not playing defensively enough, but we should assume that the enemy knows the matchup. Grabs are also nice, and they're sometimes the best approach if the opponent doesn't see them coming (which they usually will).

Air vs. ground... Yoshi gains the advantage here because Sheik really isn't that rangy on the ground, nor is she a prioritastic character. Most of the aerials Yoshi approaches with outrange and outprioritize all of her ground options... except the chain. This is easiest to deal with from the air, since you can just DJ through it and punish her afterlag with a downB or dair (which normally I wouldn't say to use, but they work pretty well in this case. If she's not chaining, feel free to approach with bairs.

Anyway, when Sheik is approaching Yoshi, you pretty much > anything she can do. Unfortunately, you don't usually end up in that situation, since her needles go faster than your eggs.

 

[Deleted member]

But you cant just analyze matchups with what beats what. Shieks tilt combos own yoshi all day. Shiek racks up damage much quicker, and both have trouble killing, tho shiek moreso. Sheik doesnt use chain, period. If u spotdodge an fsmash u get hit, same with dsmash. Her grabs are good. Lucky for us, shiek cant edgeguard yoshi, which is a big part of her game against many characters.

Also, its really not that hard to approach yoshi, you can kinda just walk up to him if u want and ftilt =P