Yoshi General Discussion Thread!!

[Winnar]

I was inspired by Mind Trick's video to pick up Yoshi...Well I love 'em. There's so much about him that I was looking for in a character. Cept for the slow shield I like everything about him. Why is he low tier?

Questions!
I'm still very new to yoshi-about 6 or so hours of play - Im not sure what moves to do and when.
1) judging by the guide the dtilt is pretty much the bread and butter, is it usable against all characters?
2)I play against a very good cfalcon a lot. The guide suggested bair, which i used, but i dont uderstand how it can set up for a uair??
3) I also play aginst a good marth, well im at a loss in that fight... i can DJCC thru his combos and such but i dont know what to do to set him up for a kill.
4)Is SHFFLing useful with yoshi? or is the DJC just better in general?

:D

I'm no pro and I'm sure others will answer your questions better, but in my experience...

1) D-tilt is indeed amazing. If you're pressuring their shield and they aren't rolling, you can either get their shield down with DJC nairs and jabs and after a few of those dtilt will basically always shield poke. It's also great for edgeguarding, as if you miss it you're not stuck in the dsmash animation.

2) If you hit with the last hit of bair you can almost always get a uair or nair depending on their percent and how well they DI away. You can full hop bair to uair without even landing, which is a nice move to use to intercept most aerial approaches.

3) I'm not really sure what to tell you, I have problems with Marth as well. Good reads, bait and punish, that's all I really can tell you. A better Yoshi than I can probably help you more with this matchup.

4) It's kind of a wash. SHFFLing isn't especially good as Yoshi, but it definitely has its uses. Yoshi's best tool (in my opinion) is his ability to bait and punish anything with the DJC. You jump in or away and if you're in the air you can turn around into an aerial into a combo into a stock. It's hard to get in on most of the top tiers, so I find this strategy to be really helpful.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Using u-tilt against some of C falcon's approaches works fairly well.
It will also set him up perfectly for more u-tilt or u-air juggles

 

[Lordydennek]

Thanks Winnar, and Nog! I really enjoy playing yoshi. It seems like a lot of tech skill is needed to be super evasive. There's so many things you can do with the DJ into wavelands and stuff. totally cool. The only move that I can really see shffling is the nair. The bair is fast enough as is and the dair only needs to FF in certain situations. The uair can just be DJC and be plenty fast.

 

[Winnar]

Thanks Winnar, and Nog! I really enjoy playing yoshi. It seems like a lot of tech skill is needed to be super evasive. There's so many things you can do with the DJ into wavelands and stuff. totally cool. The only move that I can really see shffling is the nair. The bair is fast enough as is and the dair only needs to FF in certain situations. The uair can just be DJC and be plenty fast.

Yeah, in my opinion Yoshi is probably the most technically challenging character in Melee.

Fox is definitely the most inputs per second, but if you mess up with Fox you might get punished. MIGHT. If you mess up as Yoshi, you are probably already dead by the time you've realized you made a mistake.

It's really fun to me XD

 

[Lordydennek]

Tis true. I spent most of the afternoon getting owned by my friends marth and kinda owned by his cfalcon. I had my moments though. Yoshi can combo quite well when you know where to go. And man talk about survival. I lived to upwards of 170 every match. I didnt realize how heavy he is.

 

[Dogysamich]

I was inspired by Mind Trick's video to pick up Yoshi...Well I love 'em. There's so much about him that I was looking for in a character. Cept for the slow shield I like everything about him. Why is he low tier?

Questions!
I'm still very new to yoshi-about 6 or so hours of play - Im not sure what moves to do and when.
1) judging by the guide the dtilt is pretty much the bread and butter, is it usable against all characters?
2)I play against a very good cfalcon a lot. The guide suggested bair, which i used, but i dont uderstand how it can set up for a uair??
3) I also play aginst a good marth, well im at a loss in that fight... i can DJCC thru his combos and such but i dont know what to do to set him up for a kill.
4)Is SHFFLing useful with yoshi? or is the DJC just better in general?

Yoshi's low tier mainly because of his recovery, or lack of. Although he does have the benefit of having a beastly 2nd jump (one that, BY ITSELF, can go through a wide array of edgeguards), he has no 3rd jump to back it up. Seeing as he won't always make it back with his 2nd jump, that cripples his offstage game.

The next big reason is his shield. It's not slow, but he's the only character who cannot JUMP out of his shield. Because of that, Yoshi is the most helpless character in shield. One he's forced to go into shield, he has to defensively come out of it. Yoshi, in the grand scheme of things, cannot punish out of shield unless it's something ridiculously slow (i.e. a f.smash from somebody such as marth).

Beyond those, yoshi also has a subpar grab game. Not so much because his grabs don't set anything up (which they don't), but because his actual grab is so shaky that it requires a specific spacing for specific throws. (tl;dr - his grab hitbox is goofy)

He falls into the weight that gets chaingrabbed by most characters who can, and also gets comboed very well.

Beyond that, yoshi actually as horrible as a character as people make him out to be. He's still bad not good when it's all said and done, but it's not like he DOESN'T have things going for him.

-"Super Armor" *sidenote: I know i'm not supposed to say that, Shiri. *
-Air Grabs (neutral b, and I'm puttin some shine on the fact that you can jump in GRAB, which only 3 characters can do in this game)
-Mini spotdodges (f.smash and u.smash)
-DjC for different angles
-An overall completely usable moveset (infact, when I think about it, Yoshi literally doesn't have a single move that's "bad", "super-situational", or "sucks". MAYBE side-b, but there actually some good use for it)
-Lightshield as a "get out of jail free" card. ("Hey Ganon, if you're gunna f.air my shield, I'm just gunna lightshield and slide the **** up outta here."
-Moves that lead into combos, and moves that can net you guaranteed damage.

_____________

Now to answer your questions Or rather, to answer the ones that I can, seeing as I'm not a yoshi main (not even low tier).

1) Yes it is. When you think D.tilt, think of "a bootleg Fox Shine". It always sends people a set distance, so if you catch somebody by the edge, it will ALWAYS knock them back a good distance, whether they're at 20% or 200%. I know yoshi has some good d.tilt gimmick that's like.... dash -> d.tilt, or (some?)throw -> d.tilt. I dunno, I'd have to either ask bloshi or **** around with it myself.

2) I can't answer honestly
3) I can't answer honestly, but I'd imagine that if you can DjCC through him, I'd imagine you'd want to either n.air to get him off the stage, or d.smash on landing. I personally WANTED to say you're looking to make him misspace something and land a f.smash, but take my thoughts on this with a grain of salt.

4) Yes shffl is useful. SHFFL is ALWAYS useful. Some people who play characters with djc tend to have this mentality that "I must djc everything because it makes me faster and "it's super technical." " Well, what happens when you come across a character who can straight up beat your djc? You wanna djc in his face, he hits you with like, a f.tilt. Now you just got hit out of your double jump. You're Yoshi, so you dont even get a 3rd jump, so now he's just gunna juggle your *** off the stage and let you drop.

That's the general part. Yoshi himself has good SHFFL moves. SHFFL n.air, SHFFL u.air, and SHFFL f.air specifically. Going further into this, you actually want to keep in mind that SH B.air and SH F.air end in the air (they auto cancel).

Come to think of it, I think THAT'S the d.tilt setup I was thinkin' about, SH B.air -> d.tilt. *Shrug*

___

But yeah, playin yoshi isnt easy by any stretch. He's got ALOT of stuff going against him, but he actually has some things he CAN do.

 

[Mind Trick]

I was inspired by Mind Trick's video to pick up Yoshi...Well I love 'em. There's so much about him that I was looking for in a character. Cept for the slow shield I like everything about him. Why is he low tier?
No OoS jump, horrible shieldgrab, no ridiculously broken moves like all top tiers have His recovery actually isn't that bad imo.

Questions!
I'm still very new to yoshi-about 6 or so hours of play - Im not sure what moves to do and when.
1) judging by the guide the dtilt is pretty much the bread and butter, is it usable against all characters?
Good range, low startup and in general a pretty fast move that comes with set knockback is one of Yoshi's most versatile moves. Mostly as shieldpressure/stab and as an edgeguarding tool it is amazing.
2)I play against a very good cfalcon a lot. The guide suggested bair, which i used, but i dont uderstand how it can set up for a uair??
Follow your bair up immediately with a DJC upair/nair, on low %'s it's probably better to follow up with ftilt or uptilt. Full hop bairs are best followed up by DJC upair.
3) I also play aginst a good marth, well im at a loss in that fight... i can DJCC thru his combos and such but i dont know what to do to set him up for a kill.
Best ways to kill a marth:
1. 'Spotdodge' his attack with an fsmash.
2. Get him in the air, egg him and follow up with upsmash/upair.
3. CC a falling aerial to dsmash.
4. Roll to dsmash (yes lol at this one, but everyone underestimates how fast it comes out of roll )
5. DJC nair (sweetspotted) through an attack.
6. Get him off stage (dtilt for example), and last minute insta edgehog if you think he's gonna sweetspot (you can actually go through his up-b with the super armor to steal the ledge) or do another dtilt. If he's coming from above egg him a lot :D
7. Break his shield with djc nair-jab-repeat :D:D:D
4)Is SHFFLing useful with yoshi? or is the DJC just better in general?
Rising nair, auto cancel bair, full hop upair and SHFFL dair at high %'s can be pretty usefull for situations where DJC is not practical/wanted. SHFFL Fair can be good but you can get more range if you add a DJC into it. SHFFL upair is always inferior to DJC Upair.

Spoiler

blablabla

 

[Dogysamich]

I just did the Yoshi section to my guide I'm working on, and it made me remember something dumb I did to a scrubby doc a while ago.

Waveland off the stage -> reverse f.air -> recover -> "DJ Dance" (rapid idjs on the ground).

I felt like a boss that day.

 

[Lordydennek]

Thanks for the advice guys! "spotdodging" with the fsmash is the coolest ever...and realllllly annoys my friends marth. CC is excellent.
Another question!
The fair has a lot of priority but im not sure when to use it, besides in the dunk situation. Is it pratical to use against cfalcon, marth or peach?

 

[DstyCube]

• Tech chasing
• Intercept them in mid air -> djc nair tech chase.
• It's possible to set up something like a fair -> uptilt / uair juggle / bomb on heavy chars, egg on lighter ones, and of course following up with an up smash is safe like 90% of the time (totally made-up percent, but it is a really safe move to use, and it works well on all 3 of those characters.)

 

[Lovage]

did you guys know that if you reverse moonwalk (charlie) into an edge you do a cool run-in-place thing? this works with all characters but yoshi's is the best (lasts the longest)

 

[Winnar]

did you guys know that if you reverse moonwalk (charlie) into an edge you do a cool run-in-place thing? this works with all characters but yoshi's is the best (lasts the longest)

???

One more time?

 

[Mind Trick]

Charlie is kinda like moonwalk to dash turnaround, I have yet to make it work though >_<
How do you time this thing?

 

[DstyCube]

did you guys know that if you reverse moonwalk (charlie) into an edge you do a cool run-in-place thing? this works with all characters but yoshi's is the best (lasts the longest)

lol, i guess...

Moonwalk -> run forward -> run back
or
Stickywalk -> run back

 

[Lovage]

sorry for the confusing description

just dash the other way out of your stickywalk
stickywalk is done by moonwalking and dashing the other way so you do a super slow run that speed up over time

so moonwalk towards the edge, dash away to stickywalk, dash back towards the edge to charlie
once you reach the edge you'll run in place for like a second if you keep holding forward. the run in place lasts longer depending on how close your charlie was to the edge.

you can do this with every character, but yoshi's is the only one of note really

 

[Winnar]

sorry for the confusing description

just dash the other way out of your stickywalk
stickywalk is done by moonwalking and dashing the other way so you do a super slow run that speed up over time

so moonwalk towards the edge, dash away to stickywalk, dash back towards the edge to charlie
once you reach the edge you'll run in place for like a second if you keep holding forward. the run in place lasts longer depending on how close your charlie was to the edge.

you can do this with every character, but yoshi's is the only one of note really

:D

Thanks for the heads up, I'll check it out today

 

[Lordydennek]

Report:
GREAT SUCCESS!!!
My yoshi committed many **** crimes against my friends characters! Especially his Falco (I had no idea that Yoshi could destroy spacies like that)
Everyone's advice realllly helped quite a bit. Yoshi has now become my second best character.
BUT
I faced my friends peach today.....
....
....
well...
it wasnt good. I need some help. Any ideas?

 

[Bloshi]

Report:
GREAT SUCCESS!!!
My yoshi committed many **** crimes against my friends characters! Especially his Falco (I had no idea that Yoshi could destroy spacies like that)
Everyone's advice realllly helped quite a bit. Yoshi has now become my second best character.
BUT
I faced my friends peach today.....
....
....
well...
it wasnt good. I need some help. Any ideas?

EGGS SON

Use 'em

But no seriously, eggs just go through turnips and have the perfect arc to pop a floating peach in the face. If she fairs or nairs through the egg and she's closing in, get her with a good usmash.

Also, don't be right next to her on the ground. Oh god the dsmash hurts. Light shield away from that ****. Try to come in from straight above when she's on the ground, as her usmash is slow and her utilt blows. Her sideways and downwards priority is beast though. make sure at lower percents you dont stay near her too long for she may crouch cancel stuff you throw at her.

 

[YOSHIDO]

Lol Im glad to hear your enjoying yoshi. And yeah, peach is a demon hoe. But yeah like bloshi said eggs are really good against her. Back airs or well placed fairs are good to. You have to watch the spacing for. I found if you mix up your approach and timing enough, you can actually get in and do some damage. Oh and I found out the hard way DON'T THROW LEDGE EGGS when she's coming from the middle of the stage floating in. Her f-air will reach over that ledge and hit you in your mouth

Down tilt is good. But be extra cautious when trying land it because you'll be right in her line of fire. And theres several things she can attack you with , that can turn that one miss to a stock, or 40, 50% damage. Jabs are good here too. Also watch you nose, she will grab it in a heartbeat. But yeah man hope that helps

 

[Winnar]

Bloshi are you gonna be at INNsomnia tomorrow? We should Yosh it up if so :O

 

[Bloshi]

Haha no, I am leaving Tennessee for Winter break, I will be In Colorado for the next month. Visit me, I dare you.

Yoshi related things:
Yoshi is cooler when he lives in Colorado because nobody plays him there. Now there are like 5 yoshis in the south. They are me, yohsiiscool, winnar, shiri, and yoshido. Tennessee has two yoshi players, and like 6 melee players. What the hell.

 

[YOSHIDO]

wow thats crazy stats. We should do 5v5 team matches lol

 

[Winnar]

We should all go to pound 4 and enter crews as Team Yoshi! :O!!

jk I'm not going to P4

 

[Lordydennek]

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep that in mind. I know what you mean about TN. I'm in Missouri and no one plays smash here. There's a couple in St. Louis and a few at Rolla, but on the whole nothing.

 

[Lordydennek]

I got to use Yoshi for the first time in a tourny! I beat some ices with him! but i stuck to my main mostly, which is shiek. I took 3rd in the tourny overall and played about a 1000 friendlies with yoshi. I got a lot better. I still get rocked by that peach but not quite as bad. Thanks for all the help

 

[Mind Trick]

eggs/fsmash/upsmash/dtilt are pretty amazing against peach.
I honestly think Yoshi v Peach on final d is even.
Yoshi's story is pretty good as well.
But on FD once you get them in the air they can do so little against your eggs and well placed upsmashes.

 

[Shiri]

Don't forget, you can shieldgrab downsmash after the second hit.

Very good for getting them to stop using the move when they're not comboing into it.

Also, don't forget that upsmash ties with and halts downsmash when you hit it from underneath (like when she's on a platform).

 

[Lordydennek]

ooo didnt know that about the usmash. I shall have to use it more. as well as eggs. i sometimes just forget i have em....a big mistake

 

[DstyCube]

Don't forget, you can shieldgrab downsmash after the second hit.

I'm going to try this.

 

[Lordydennek]

questions!!
Ok i figured out a lot of stuff with yoshi in the past few days, but i need help on whats best for sheild pressure. Usually i sh or djc a nair into them and they sheild. I then Lcancel and double jab then i try another nair(should this be djc or just sh?) that usaully works well but i wonder if i should switch from the nair into a dtilt or ftilt? whats best?

 

[Winnar]

questions!!
Ok i figured out a lot of stuff with yoshi in the past few days, but i need help on whats best for sheild pressure. Usually i sh or djc a nair into them and they sheild. I then Lcancel and double jab then i try another nair(should this be djc or just sh?) that usaully works well but i wonder if i should switch from the nair into a dtilt or ftilt? whats best?

After the nair I generally jab once or twice and then dtilt (if they don't roll). Usually when I'm pressuring with the jabs I am trying to bait a roll so I can fair to combooooooos

But that's just me? D:

 

[Lordydennek]

omg i never thought to chase a roll with fair....stupid! that makes sooo much sense. ok ill try dtilt out. it is the best move of all time.

 

[Winnar]

omg i never thought to chase a roll with fair....stupid! that makes sooo much sense. ok ill try dtilt out. it is the best move of all time.

Sometimes it's funny to chase it with egg lay :D

 

[Mind Trick]

No shield pressure is perfect, it depends a lot on how good your opponent is with his OoS stuff and what character he's playing.

The things that work best for me though:
DJC Nair -> jab -> repeat, great on fresh shield and a shieldgrabby person as close range stuff; expect a roll soon.
DJC Nair -> dtilt (or ftilt), for shieldstab purposes and if you're kinda midrange.
DJC Nair -> RDJC Nair on the back, if you've punished shieldgrab before.
Spaced aerial -> fsmash angled up, for finishing.
Fsmash -> Fsmash, if you space this right a lot of people will try to shieldgrab you and get hit in the face by a second one.

If you see the shield is weakened and the character doesn't have a great shield to begin with (although it works on a LOT of the cast) just go for a dsmash
(I'm not sure if this is true, but hitting with the tip seems to be more succesfull )

 

[Winnar]

No shield pressure is perfect, it depends a lot on how good your opponent is with his OoS stuff and what character he's playing.

The things that work best for me though:
DJC Nair -> jab -> repeat, great on fresh shield and a shieldgrabby person as close range stuff; expect a roll soon.
DJC Nair -> dtilt (or ftilt), for shieldstab purposes and if you're kinda midrange.
DJC Nair -> RDJC Nair on the back, if you've punished shieldgrab before.
Spaced aerial -> fsmash angled up, for finishing.
Fsmash -> Fsmash, if you space this right a lot of people will try to shieldgrab you and get hit in the face by a second one.

If you see the shield is weakened and the character doesn't have a great shield to begin with (although it works on a LOT of the cast) just go for a dsmash
(I'm not sure if this is true, but hitting with the tip seems to be more succesfull )

Smaller and lower hitbox at the tip, so yeah that sounds right.

 

[Lordydennek]

thanks! could you explain the rdjc nair to the back?

 

[yoshiiscool]

there's a couple things he could be talking about there, either the obvious (I think) of DJC nair, and dash through their shield and RDJC a n-air on their back, or djc a nair forward into them so you're close enough to RDJC with a n-air over them to hit them on the top and land behind. Either one of them sounds ok as far as pressuring goes, the latter more for people that like to punish with aerials OoS.

For shield pressure, I think that it's highly dependent on the char matchup. For instance, harder to space well vs people like marth, because of uber grab range, and difficult to space well vs people like spacies who can shine OoS well. For me shield pressure is mostly just about guessing, and keeping them in their shield until they do something out of it that I can punish. I don't consider any one specific shield pressuring technique to be better than another, so just try to always be fresh with your shield pressuring. Delay your jabs, or instead of double jab, jab once, and space an f-tilt, or jab once, wait, jab again, also learn the shield stun of yoshi's moves to try to trick people up. IE if people expect to shield a double jab, and end up shielding a jab delayed f-tilt, it'll screw up their timing. Have uber Yoshi tricksies :D

Btw, I know nobody's going to listen to me... but d-tilt is one of the worst ****ing moves in yoshi's moveset. Honestly, any new yoshi players, get used to setting up walls with your f-tilt, it's miles, miles, MILES ahead of d-tilt. It does not do you well to d-tilt ANY character except for gimp edgeguards, TRUST ME. You can't follow up the d-tilt with anything because of it's knockback... what the hell's the point of that? I don't know about other Yoshi players, but I work extremely hard to get in on my opponents, and it's so ingrained into my brain that I have to d-tilt for pressure/CCC, that I will consistently get inside, and then d-tilt them away so that I have to do all of the work again. Not to mention lately I've been playing a lot of better players, with great timing, and whenever I use my spaced aerials to d-tilt, they can jump OoS OVER the d-tilt, to punish me. F-tilt is better with set ups, it gives you SO much more time to tech chase/follow up (which Yoshi's slow *** needs) and is a much better choice to use in just about any circumstance solely because of the follow up opportunities. Unless you're setting up for an edgeguard, or edgeguarding somebody gimpable... d-tilt sucks. So, what do you all think? Maybe it's just my overly aggressive style that makes me think this, but I just can't find anything good about the d-tilt anymore...

 

[Shiri]

Btw, I know nobody's going to listen to me... but d-tilt is one of the worst ****ing moves in yoshi's moveset. Honestly, any new yoshi players, get used to setting up walls with your f-tilt, it's miles, miles, MILES ahead of d-tilt. It does not do you well to d-tilt ANY character except for gimp edgeguards, TRUST ME. You can't follow up the d-tilt with anything because of it's knockback... what the hell's the point of that? I don't know about other Yoshi players, but I work extremely hard to get in on my opponents, and it's so ingrained into my brain that I have to d-tilt for pressure/CCC, that I will consistently get inside, and then d-tilt them away so that I have to do all of the work again. Not to mention lately I've been playing a lot of better players, with great timing, and whenever I use my spaced aerials to d-tilt, they can jump OoS OVER the d-tilt, to punish me. F-tilt is better with set ups, it gives you SO much more time to tech chase/follow up (which Yoshi's slow *** needs) and is a much better choice to use in just about any circumstance solely because of the follow up opportunities. Unless you're setting up for an edgeguard, or edgeguarding somebody gimpable... d-tilt sucks. So, what do you all think? Maybe it's just my overly aggressive style that makes me think this, but I just can't find anything good about the d-tilt anymore...

I don't know if you noticed this, and I'm sure you had good intentions...

...but your paragraph basically went like this:

"Down tilt sucks except for when you use it for what it's good at."

Besides edgeguards and resets, I don't know of many people who just use it to use it. I could be overthinking things, though.

 

[Lordydennek]

For me, even tho im new to Yoshi, i like to dtilt to move them toward the edge. players are usually uncomfortable there (except for me, i love edge game except against marth...) I like the range on it. its not as slow as dsmash and its what you CC for. after the dtilt you can egg if they attempt to jump over. or just continue to cc or wd forward and bair real quick. then again i think the level plays a big part here too.

 

[TresChikon]

I dunno, when I play my friend's Yoshi, if I ever get sloppy with my play, his d-tilt sets up for all sorts of nasty things.

I mean...if your opponent is smart, d-tilt is pretty avoidable, but if they're not, it's pretty ****.